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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/29/2007 10:58:29 AM | The Poem attributed to Martin Niemoller
When they first came for the Communist
I did not speak out I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Jews
I did not speak out I was not Jewish.
When they came for the trade unionist
I did not speak out
I was not a Trade Unionist
When they came for the Catholics
I did not speak out
I was a Protestant and not a Catholic.
When they came for me
There was no left to speak out.
A little history; Martin Niemoller was an anti semitic minister in Germany in the Nazi era. He was not a Nazi sympathizer because of the Nazi control over Christian Churches.
Toward the end of the war he was arrested by the Nazis.
After the war he repented his early anti semitic views. He then spent the rest of his life as a pacifist actively fighting Racism and Anti Semitism. the Poem is said to have been written sometime in the 1950s
there are some variations on this poem. Yet all stay true to the message | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/29/2007 11:23:44 AM | Saying that a sect of peoples were banished from another larger sect of peoples isn't racist. It's a possible happening a *long* time ago.
I'm not sure I believe the notion of it, but in any event its not a racist statement.
Racist would be like saying "All Irish people are drunkards, just because they're Irish." Which we should all know isn't true, but it was just an example.
However...I don't tolerate Racism in my house, or in my presence. I dislike it being in the rest of the world, but there isn't much I can do about that. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/29/2007 12:37:55 PM | Lady fair,
This doctrine is a small part of a larger doctrine that basically says modern day Jews are an inferior race and not the people talked about in the Bible. They go on to say that White Christians are the real chosen people and as such superior to all others.
It is called Christian Identity. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/29/2007 12:49:25 PM | that's right Artz
manifest destiny and all that
I remember the churches in bible belt Tulsa Oklahoma when I visited a friend there as a teenager saying such things. Well... unforutunately I'm only 1/16th white so.... | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/30/2007 7:22:20 AM |
Thank you once again, Artz for correctly pointing out anti-Semitic posts. The original premise of this thread is greatly flawed. And Yes, suzzzzieQ, it's anti semitic. The people from Europe and the Americas who are Jewish can trace their roots. Furthermore modern DNA tests today confirm that. They also, in some cases, have found some some lost tribes, for example in Ethiopia. There was a case of a group of people who kept some strange customs, strangely reminiscent of Judaism. When DNA tests were run, the was indeed a connection!
I never suggusted that the Jewish people who live in the Americas and Europe can not trace their roots. There is no doubt that the decendants of the orignal ancient tribe of Judea are alive and well. Anyone who would suggust such a thing is mistaken. There were and are 11 other tribes who are believed to have migrated north. I did some checking on this "Christian Identity Movement" group and they are one scary group of people. There theology IS racist and anti-semetic. There are however other scholars and historians who have traced the migration of some of the tribes of Israel over the Caucasus Mountains without the disgusting additional racist premises that have been added by this movement. | |
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Posted: 10/30/2007 7:48:47 AM | All the Other so called scholars and historians have been debunked along time ago.
Most of the so called scholarly work was done in the 19th century. A time when racist views were ingrained into all aspects of society. I would venture any contemporary work showing this lost tribes migration over the Caucasus Mountains will have it's roots in some racist group or another. | |
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| As long as you mean racism, and not nastiness, then yes.
Posted: 10/30/2007 8:51:27 PM |
Give me a "cursed" Scot! Love me a fiery man in a kilt!!
Like many tribes (subspecies) mentioned in the bible who were not the chosen people, I of the clan Robertson, 3 generations removed from the eastern coast north of Hadrian's wall, recognize I am of divergent genetic heritage from the rest of humanity. You all are encouraged to set up camp and thrive. May our trading be mutually beneficial. If your tribe comes on my tribe's land we will employ nothing short of deities to expel you. We want our genotype to thrive. We don't feel guilty if it is at the cost of other genotypes.
That said, as an empathetic human, I don't hurt the innocent. As a biologist I struggle for genetic diversity. I do not tolerate the following:
violence in the name of racial superiority
violence for theft, personal or national
violence borne of fear of those different
denial of human rights.
I believe everyone has the right to voluntarily exclude oneself from integration with any other definably different genotype, be they Visigoths or spiders.
I think my genetics are at least as good as yours. If it comes to competition for land, I, like the Israelites, will stop at nothing to self-replicate. | |
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Posted: 10/30/2007 11:23:19 PM | quote]A little history; Martin Niemoller was an anti semitic minister in Germany in the Nazi era. He was not a Nazi sympathizer because of the Nazi control over Christian Churches. Toward the end of the war he was arrested by the Nazis.
You dishonour the man with your inaccuracies!
Niemoller was a founding member of the pastoral group that formed the "Confessing Church " in defiance of the German government and stood in specific opposition to Nazi control of the churches. That group was formed in 1933. He was arrested in 1937 and spent 1938-45 in the infamous Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps. The Second World War began with the invasion of Poland in 1939. Niemoller had been a prisoner for almost two years at that point. Hardly "Toward the end of the war".
He expressed common anti-Semitic views and initially supported Hitler, but all that was prior to the late 20s/very early 30s. It should also be noted that his "support" of Hitler is better described as his "opposition" or loss of faith in the Wiemar Republic. | |
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Posted: 10/31/2007 8:15:43 AM | | I stand corrected please excuse me for my slight inaccurate brief outline of the man. My point was that he was like a great many German Christians of that era anti semitic. That is the point. At some point he has a change of Heart on his Anti Semetic views That was the point. The change of heart and hence the poem that is attributed to him. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/31/2007 8:29:54 AM | Remember folks, many christians- and governments- were anti-semitic, even as recently as 70 years ago. Anti-semitism wasn't really seen as taboo as it is today, mostly because it was present just about everywhere.
It took the full scope and tragedy of the Holocaust to really illustrate what was wrong with anti-semitism, even if it is still present to this day. | |
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Posted: 10/31/2007 8:40:57 AM | I admit this is the first time I heard of Martin Niemoller but I'm glad he came around... Just goes to show (imo) that with the right lesson, anyone can change to a unified outlook...
Thanks Artz... I will be keeping that poem... I may even frame it sometime.
"He has not lived in vain who dies the day they are told about the way"
--Confucius | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/31/2007 9:18:20 AM | You are right trippy, Not only was anti semitic beliefs the norm it was taught by a great many Christian churches as being righteous and good. Hitler could not have come to power without the support of the German Christian Community.
Most main stream churches have recognized the errors of their past teaching. Yet there is still a lot of anti semitic and racist sermons being preached from the pulpits.
some here have expressed their message of hate in the name of Jesus. Others who have posted here did not recognize the under pinning of vile hate in doctrine they read or were thought. I do think they were innocent victims and did not really understand the whole doctrine of what they thought was Christian. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/31/2007 9:36:40 AM |
admit this is the first time I heard of Martin Niemoller but I'm glad he came around
I'd recommend Googling him and the "Confessing Church". And while you're at it, Google Dietrich Bonhoeffer as well. But you should know that the poem -- more of a statement really -- is often misquoted, mangled, and mistranslated. Seek an original copy. And the reason for him writing it is often misunderstood and overly sentimentalised. Seek out his own quoted words for why he wrote it. | |
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Posted: 10/31/2007 10:21:30 AM | | You will notice I used the phrase attributed to him. Many others claim a different source. As I said there are variations on this poem. The one I used is found on the Holocaust memorial in NY City. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 10/31/2007 10:38:57 AM |
But you should know that the poem
Lol... The things I don't know but should could fill libraries (but I read alot).
I likely will google it up because I am a curious individual, but any variation of the Golden Rule is precious to me and I like the way this one is phrased...
Many others claim a different source. As I said there are variations on this poem. The one I used is found on the Holocaust memorial in NY City.
Good enough for me. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 11/1/2007 8:26:47 AM |
I would venture any contemporary work showing this lost tribes migration over the Caucasus Mountains will have it's roots in some racist group or another.
I have done a bit of homework on this subject and must say it is very interesting. There are a number of sites that offer information regarding this topic without the slightest hint of racism. My suggustion for any one interested would be to google "the lost tribes of Israel and the Caucasus mountains. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 11/1/2007 5:02:57 PM | | Try googling the lost tribe of israel with out a refrance to the Caucasus mountains. that will give you a much better spectrum of sources on the subject. The BBC has a great page on the subject. There is a page on the resent immigration of some Jews from the China India boarder that have an oral history of being a lost tribe. In all the main stream writing i have found there was not one mention of the Caucasus mountains and Lost tribe. Most of that is nonsense useing bad science from the 19th century. A deeper reading will get you to the very racist background. and views behind this quackery. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 11/12/2007 6:03:09 PM | | have you actually looked up the proper definition of "racism" | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 11/13/2007 7:11:19 PM |
The theory of american people being lost tribes of Israel comes fro the mormon religion. In the Book of Mormon, the lamanites and Nephi travelled to North America. The Lamanites followed God's law. The Nephi did not. Thus the Nephi were cursed with dark skin (This is the mormon explaination for the origin of the American Indian) which really makes me question whether or not their religion has racist beginnings. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 11/14/2007 4:33:20 PM | Well... unforutunately I'm only 1/16th white so....
awe... that must have took some working out stats!
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 11/18/2007 10:48:04 AM | "the expelling of adam and eve and of cain was an act against persons not an act against a people."
They were the ONLY people!!! Your statement doesn't make sense.
Something for thought.....If adam and eve were the only people on earth and they had two sons, who banged mommy? (afterall, they were to be fruitful and multiply)?? | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 1/10/2008 6:20:49 PM | | Something else to ponder...did noah just have an enormous gene pool, or are all the variables that are "people" a direct result of inbreeding? Is it also possible that everyone is technically "black" since the garden of eden is supposedly in the sub-saharan eastern part of africa? White racists are not kind to this way of thought...Word. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 1/10/2008 7:03:00 PM |
I noticed on a forum on his site two days ago an american person stating that the original people of sccotland and of america were cursed people who had been expelled from Isreal. I was a bit shocked to hear this and it appeared to be racist. Can anyone shed light on this for me. What on Earth? Whoever got the idea that the Scots and Native Americans were originally Jews? Even if you wanted to claim this, it could easily be disproved. It's been shown that there are mitochondrial DNA that passes through the mother, that Jews have the same mitochondrial DNA. Even accounting for intermarriage, you would still have a very high proportion of those races having the same mitochondrial DNA as Jews.
Besides, Scots have a very high proportion of people with red hair. It does occur in Jews, but in a much, much, much smaller proportion, so it's not that likely.
As to what happened to the lost tribes, the fact is we don't really know. Loads of peoples have claimed to be descendants of the lost tribes, including the earliest Rastafarians. | |
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| do you tolerate racism
Posted: 1/10/2008 9:03:39 PM |
I noticed on a forum on his site two days ago an american person stating that the original people of sccotland and of america were cursed people who had been expelled from Isreal. I was a bit shocked to hear this and it appeared to be racist. Can anyone shed light on this for me.
This person was certainly prejudiced and definitely uninformed.
Scientists (who are studying this) say that everyone comes from Africa and spread throughout the world in an almost endless series of migrations.
I think it was a troll post meant to inflame but containing nothing in the way of truth or facts.
Those would have slowed him (or her) down. | |
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