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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/21/2007 7:26:40 AM | ^ yes my friend ... two sides to a coin ... and..... the circular ring that seperates them.
makes you think again on the universality and symbolism of it all.
Though through most of my life I have felt witches are for kids and bad movies. | |
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Nergal
| Joined: 4/29/2007 Msg: 402 | |
| What is a witch? Posted: 9/21/2007 10:12:15 AM | | Funnily enough most of the wiccan literature is simply christian practice wrapped in a pseudo celtic wrapping. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/21/2007 3:15:48 PM | Funnily enough most of the wiccan literature is simply christian practice wrapped in a pseudo celtic wrapping. The Wiccan beliefs I am familiar with come no where close to Christian beliefs. Wicca sees the Divine as the energy in ALL things.... their "god" is not an exterior entity. The Wiccan Deity is EVERYWHERE.... including themselves. If "god" is everywhere, then we treat everyone as equal to ourselves, there is no "judgement" because we are part of the Divine, so we can judge ourselves. There is no heaven and hell, no rules telling us how to live, etc.... if we are all part of the Divine, we will treat everyone and everything as we wish to be treated. There is a lot more to it, but that is just a beginning.
I have a lot of Wiccan friends, and they are the most accepting and loving group of people I know. At the last party of 26 people, there was one gay couple, one lesbian couple, one couple where she is bi-sexual (yes, he has no problems with her exploring it either), and one trans-gendered individual. I highly doubt you would ever get a mix like that at a Christian gathering..... when only 26 are there. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/21/2007 6:17:48 PM |
I have a lot of Wiccan friends, and they are the most accepting and loving group of people I know. At the last party of 26 people, there was one gay couple, one lesbian couple, one couple where she is bi-sexual (yes, he has no problems with her exploring it either), and one trans-gendered individual. I highly doubt you would ever get a mix like that at a Christian gathering..... when only 26 are there.
Hell no you wouldnt lol. Hel lyou get 26 christians together, all from different church's, they would be fighting over who was right and what they belived. I bet those 26 pagans all belive over all the same thing, but have a few differences in how they belive, yet they dont fight over it. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/22/2007 12:07:10 AM | | First off hello all I am new to pof glad to see like minded people here. Yes that is true Pagans would not fight I have been to lots of cog events Pagan pride days where you have hundreds of pagans in one place and with so many differet backgrounds,lifestyles all going for the same goal all having a good time. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/22/2007 5:20:48 AM | Any time you put any large group of people together you run the risk of there being fights or disagreements.
Pagans are not immune to these things any more then having a other group together.
I will say that most strive for an understanding of all, but it isn't always accomplished. | |
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Nergal
| Joined: 4/29/2007 Msg: 407 | |
| What is a witch? Posted: 9/22/2007 8:59:26 AM | I know huge numbers of pagans, and there is a lot of infighting within groups like the Pagan Federation, and the British Order of Druids. Most of which stems from egotism and oneupmanship. There arent many disagreements on actual matters of belief as most of the serious practitioners actually stay away from groups. Wicca was invented 70 years ago, its not an ancient way or anything of the sort. It was created as a more female orientated form of belief system than Christianity. It still has marriage ceremonies (handfasting), and christenings (naming cermonies). As one poster said it worships the Divine principle, normally the Feminine Divine, although some people now use both the Male and Female Divine figures. Or is that the same as God and Mary? I've even encountered a large number of Christian Witches .. ie Pagans that still hold to Christian beliefs. Enochian magic uses Angels, from the Christian Scriptures. Although serious practitioners do know what they are dealing with. The Kabbala, Judaism ... It really doesnt matter whether its Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca, there are still arguments. To me true paganism would be a reverence, not of some principle, but of actual ancient gods, be they Celtic, Roman, Greek, Egyptian or Sumerian, with ceremonies based on factual historical research. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/22/2007 5:14:45 PM | A Witch is someone who practices witchcraft, or the craft of the wise. They may or may not be religious, they may be or not be spiritual. Witchcraft is the practice of bending or influencing reality...there are many forms of witchcraft...from herbcraft and folk spells (kitchen magick), to ritual magick, thelemic magick...high magick, ceremonial magick...then there is shamanism, which is trance magick, dream walking and spirit talking, there is shapeshifting and Hedge magick...there is healing magick and "witchdoctors" who are shaman and healers/physicians...then there are the religious types who are more like priests and priestesses...they communicate with their deities and stand in for them in ritual (Like oh..umm... Catholic Priests, who do practice ritual magick even if they say elsewise...it is magick)
Pagans, Wiccans and others like this may or may not be witches... some who follow the old religions do not practice the Craft, but concentrate on the religious aspects.
Anyone who prays or chants is practicing magick...that is what a spell is, the spoken word meant to influence or otherwise change something. Prayer is a spell.
Magick is neither black nor white, and those who say so do not understand the essence of magick. It is simply energy...it's how it is used, the intention behind it that "colours" it. What is YOUR intention?
I am a Witch, I practice magick...not often, and not without serious consideration. I have high respect for it. I believe I was born with a gift for it. I can't wear watches...my electromagnetic field ruins them. I find the practice comes easily to me though I have also studied various types and approaches. I am also a pagan in that I have a spiritual practice also and I put the Craft in service of my spirituality.
The "image" of the witch was maligned by the inquisitors of the catholic church and the new male physicians of the age to denigrate the pagans, wise women(herbalists) and midwives of the middle ages. It was also used to frighten and control the peasants and the women...and to take their land.
Sorcery is another matter entirely. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/22/2007 5:18:38 PM | She turned me into a newt!
I got better 
Enochian magic uses Angels, from the Christian Scriptures. Although serious practitioners do know what they are dealing with. The Kabbala, Judaism ...
I just spotted this out of the corner of my eye.
Enochian Magic actually has zip all to do with the Angels of the Christian Scripture. It is an entirely "received" system of magic that uses techniques borrowed from earlier Kabbalistic systems but names and language that are entirely alien to anything seen before on the scene. It was developed by John Dee and Edward Kelly in the Elizabethan Age.
Christian Magic arises from the Jewish Kabala which itself likely arises from much earlier traditions based in both Caanann and Egypt. The angelic names used in Christian practices and throughout most of modern Ceremonial magic derive from the Jewish angelology. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/22/2007 5:20:33 PM | quote
Funnily enough most of the wiccan literature is simply christian practice wrapped in a pseudo celtic wrapping.
WRONG first...there is little "wiccan" literature.. pagans don't have "scripture"
Pagan rituals are the origin of many of the christian rituals (Think Easter and Christmas, seriously pagan)... the modern rites are reconstructions from the research done by people...some are greek, some celtic, some are egyptian...etc...
do some homework...read Hermes Trismegistus for starters... these rituals and ideas are ancient and go back to Egyptian times.. long before christianity | |
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Nergal
| Joined: 4/29/2007 Msg: 411 | |
| What is a witch? Posted: 9/23/2007 5:17:37 AM | There is tons of wiccan literature .. the bookshops are cram packed with it. mostly written by people who dont have a clue. Hermes Trismegistus isnt even ancient. And doesnt really belong to Wicca its more Hermetics. I dont dispute wicca as a religion, just its claim to be an ancient religion. It isnt ... Gerald Gardner invented it. In my opinion its a New Age religion
Origins
The history of Wicca is a much debated topic. Gardner claimed that the religion was a survival of matriarchal religions of pre-historic Europe (see Völva), taught to him by a woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck. Many believe he invented it himself, following the thesis of Dr. Margaret Murray and sources such as Aradia: Gospel of the Witches by Charles Godfrey Leland, and the practices of Freemasonry and ceremonial magic; and while Clutterbuck certainly existed, historian Ronald Hutton concluded that she is unlikely to have been involved in Gardner's Craft activities. While the ritual format of Wicca is undeniably styled after late Victorian era occultism, the spiritual content is inspired by older Pagan faiths, with Buddhist and Hindu influences. Whether any historical connection to Pagan religion exists, the aspiration to emulate Pagan religion (as it was understood at the time) certainly does. Gardner probably had access to few, if any, traditional Pagan rites. The prevailing theory is that most of his rites were the result of his adapting the works of Aleister Crowley. There is very little in the Wiccan rites that cannot be shown to have come from earlier extant sources. The original material is not cohesive and mostly takes the form of substitutions or expansions within unoriginal material, such as embellishment of Crowley lines. Philip Heselton, writing in Wiccan Roots and later in Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration, argues that Gardner was not the author of the Wiccan rituals but received them in good faith from an unknown source. He notes that all the Crowley material that is found in the Wiccan rituals can be found in a single book, The Equinox vol 3 no. 1 or Blue Equinox. Gardner is not known to have owned or had access to a copy of this book.The idea of primitive matriarchal religions, deriving ultimately from studies by Johann Jakob Bachofen, was popular in Gardner's day, both among academics (e.g., Erich Neumann, Margaret Murray) and amateurs such as Robert Graves. Later academics (e.g. Carl Jung and Marija Gimbutas) continued research in this area, and later still Joseph Campbell, Ashley Montagu and others highly esteemed Gimbutas's work on the matrifocal cultures of Old Europe. Both matrifocal interpretation of the archaeological record, and the foundations of criticism of such work, continue to be matters of academic debate. Some academics carry on research in this area (consider the 2003 World Congress on Matriarchal Studies). Critics argue that matriarchal societies never actually existed, and are an invention of researchers such as Margaret Murray. The idea of a supreme Mother Goddess was common in Victorian and Edwardian literature: the concept of a Horned God--especially related to the gods Pan or Faunus--was less common, but still significant. Both of these ideas were widely accepted in academic literature, and in the popular press. Gardner used these concepts as his central theological doctrine, and constructed Wicca around this core.
As you said the rites are reconstructions of what people thought happened. From my point of view any magical ritual that isnt completely personal to the practitioner is of little or no value anyway. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/23/2007 12:47:55 PM |
There is tons of wiccan literature .. the bookshops are cram packed with it. mostly written by people who dont have a clue. So if you are basing assumptions on what you have read, and you know what you have read is bollocks,,,I dont get it.
Most of the old people...or people of the old ways/realigions....well NOT religions because it wasnt organised like a religion per se...knowledge was learned in ways other than books or written word or even story telling.
Many existing texts have been jumbled up or written in a secret language. Why? Because we want it all to ourself? No. Because not all things are for all people. Things come to you when and if you are ready to be able to handle them wisely. If they havent come to you,,,,its like putting a loaded gun in the hands of a 3 year old. Someone's going to get hurt.
Modern people SEEK KNOWLEDGE the short way, rather that accumulate knowledge and wisdom at the same time, and not all people are going to be doctors, or skilled boatmakers. Some people have a knack for certain things and not others. But for some reason, those talents are not valued these days and people think that by just learning something they can get good at it.
Ever been to a kids piano recital? They all went to lessons. They all practiced the same stuff, had the same teacher. Most go PLUNK PLUNK PLUNK and make....sounds. One of them (if you are lucky) will have a special relationship with that one instrument and you will be spellbound by the magic of the music when the two come together.
Now THAT is the difference between seeking knowledge and trying to LEARN ABOUT this stuff....and being born to it. And if you are born to it there is nothing you can do to deny it, any more that if you are not born to it, you can 'practice' (love that word) for all your life and still not get it right.
You might be hitting all the right keys....but that magic is missing.
Those who hold the magic.....are normally not part of any organised religion. It belongs to them, its a part of who they are...it IS who they are!
Would you put an amazing musician like that in a row of other mediocre musicians and say play along with the others? They CANT! They literally can not!
And so dont expect documentation. They wont write it, and they wont be able to explain it to anyone else in a way that it can be understood. | |
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Nergal
| Joined: 4/29/2007 Msg: 413 | |
| What is a witch? Posted: 9/23/2007 1:11:04 PM | I do actually base my assumptions on people I know, or have met. And I know some very good teachers/practitioners who do know their stuff, and are trying to teach it and change the way things are being taught. Most of the books that are available, and thats where beginners begin looking, do present it as an organised religion, practically paralleling mainstream ones. I would even go as far as to say that some books are written purely to exploit genuine seekers after knowledge and just make a fast buck. I actually agree more or less totally with your post, I dont need documentation, my personal path is exactly that and cant be documented or really taught to anyone else, unless they come my way. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/23/2007 7:39:07 PM | Those who can....do Those who cant....teach others to do? Therefore those 'taught'......and those teaching those taught...... "laugh:
I can see this going around in a great big self consuming circle :)
The blind teaching the blind the color blue Until they all believe the color blue is......all prickly and spiky like the feel of a hedgehog, and smells like pickles. But they all believe it to be true right? And THAT many people cant be wrong....right? It becomes a well documented indisputable fact by mere virtue of sheer numbers believing it and reinforcing their own beliefs.
It does not though mean the COLOR blue (unseen) is something all prickly and spiky like the feel of a hedgehog, and smells like pickles. (just because those are things a blind person can perceive and therefore understand.....and mentally accept)
cheers
I'm off the garden for some sunshine** | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/24/2007 7:55:07 PM | Very nice descriptions and explanations Ravenstar, couldn't have said it better. And well, now I don't  | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/28/2007 6:34:48 AM | | Regarding the person who made comment about witches stopping clocks. I don't think that is associated with being a witch. It has to do with your energy field. I don't know how it works but it happens to me a lot. At certain times anything electrical will not work well near me. In a 1/2 hour period I once had 7 light bulbs go out. More than a coincidence. I lived with room mates and they did not have a problem with electrical unless I was around. Weird but true. I do not consider myself a witch but sometimes I am really crabby. | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/28/2007 6:51:11 AM | Ravenstar.....
I can't wear watches...my electromagnetic field ruins them.
I love watches, but I seem to have the same problem. I also have a clock fetish, and for the life of me, I haven't figured out why. But I do seem to have more luck with clocks. And I like the ticking when it's quiet....
I've also noticed that street lights flick out when I pass them. Very weird. And I also know that they will flick out before I pass them.
...must check out this electromagnetic thang.....
I've never really known a lot about witches/pagans/wiccans, but I always thought they were very close to the Red Path. And I dearly love their only commandment,
Do what ye will, but harm none.
Perfect, absolutely perfect.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/28/2007 7:36:54 AM | quote:
I've also noticed that street lights flick out when I pass them. Very weird. And I also know that they will flick out before I pass them.
That happens to me too.
Electromagnetism is a part of the energy flow.. other parts are more..umm..ethereal, more subtle. I am not a Wiccan, though I am a witch.
Traditional witches do not share their knowledge through Llewellen! (most of that is garbage)..it is passed down through families, and sometimes to an apprentice. No one knows how far back this goes except the trads themselves.
Hermes wasn't one person, but a collection of ancient magickal writings...
The Corpus Hermeticum, then, was likely a compilation of ancient wisdom by scholars in Alexandria in the second or third century C.E. which survived in Greek libraries and later in the Arab world. It was, however, lost to the West except for the hints and allusions that bled through from Arabic sources. The Illuminist, al-Farabi (890-954 C.E.), is described as "Hermetic," and it is likely that the alchemical writings of Geber (721-766 C.E.), Rhazes (850-924 C.E.) and Avicenna (980-1036 C.E.) draw on the Corpus to some extent.
Namasté | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 9/28/2007 10:48:05 AM | | If you go to my profile; you will see what a witch is. I am a solitary hedge witch; and have been so for more them 35 years. Cheers | |
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| What is a witch? Posted: 11/21/2009 11:15:38 PM | | Oh man I always miss out on the good ones, just found a link to this on Witchvox... | |
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