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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/7/2006 5:19:47 PM | garry, Im glade you understand what Im saying. sometimes I come across kinda cryptic.
To go a hair deeper, us humans have no power. Any power we are granted is by the will of God, and being in a disobediant way, turns out to be the servants of satan, the fallen angels. yep, these beings have power, but only because God allows this mischievious stuff go on because of a good outcome. Yep, God takes bad things, and turns their outcome into a good. He's awesome! | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/7/2006 5:56:26 PM | Rob, again I say to you I am glad you found a path that seems to give you what you need
But you don't seem to understand that what you are stating is only your opinion, and you end up offending people when you attempt to tell them that their path is wrong or they are being misled by Satan. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/7/2006 6:11:41 PM |
The ultimate summary of what I was saying is, doing anything out of the creators will, is bad because he knows more than we do.
See, this postulate is viable, if only because the "created" have no conception of the will of the creator. Beyond that, then, how can one know that the actions of others are not "in accordance with the will of the creator?" Hmm, judge not, right? Hmmm....
Any power we are granted is by the will of God, and being in a disobediant way, turns out to be the servants of satan, the fallen angels.
Hold up. Explain. We get our power from God. Okay, then the rest of this statement falls apart. Are you saying that the "demons" also get their power from God, but use it to warp what power humans get from God? Not following here.
Yep, God takes bad things, and turns their outcome into a good.
All bad things? I can think of several instances where that would take some turning. However, that's not the point of the thread, now is it? Ultimate summary here is that, while some folks might be happy for those who have found a path that works for them, they don't want those folks to carry that into messing with them. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/7/2006 6:58:30 PM | Ok disagree with alot of what is being said here on all sides. Let me explain.
I wont even go into arguing with christians trying to preach to people about something which they dont and never will begin to understand. Calling something that someone else does that you never fully were trained in (That you probably learned from borders book store or some other place like that.) satanic and demonic. is exactly like saying you dont like gourmet food because you went and had a chicken cordon bleu at wendys. Very few people in the US have the honor or destiny to meet a real witch. One who will not only initiate you to the secrets of their art but guide you in their proper and safe use. Most of what is in books is either half truths speculation from an outside point of view or watered down mess that probably could make you confused lost and get you into quite a bit of trouble.
For one to talk about the various forms of witchcraft that exist in the world as one thing is ignorance. There are so many forms of what people refer to as witchcraft it is mind numbing. Many of them are so different and contray in beliefs and practice that many would not even classify in the same catagory. In the west there is a habbit to generalize such subjects and to label them as witchcraft for fear, lack of knowledge and or care to go deeper into the subject.
The Christians esp the catholic church has done MUCH damage to the cultures of all tribal people in this world were many of these various systems come from. Their forceful methods of converting, torture, murder, genocide, concentration camp style treatment, and methodical destruction of tribal culture has left a void in many of us. That void leads people to reinvent, piece back together, and or seek out people who hold these things. It has also caused most people whom do hold this information for real to hide and practice these things in secret. Most REAL "Witches" of many systems effected by this brutal imposition of the church would not openly admit they practice such things. Not for fear of the christian but, to keep their practice alive and well. Most people in the west do not posses the disipline or commitment to really follow the path of a traditional form of witch craft. Even those who do often cannot find a person who was iniated and trained by someone who is an expert in such things. This leads to the "New agification" of these practices we see all too often today and probably what made Rob say that humans have no power. If humans had no power we would not be talking on this computer right now. If humans could have no power no man could ever heal another. If humans have no power jesus had no power. (I think jesus was a very powerful witch himself. I have never had a problem with jesus my problem is with the churches.) I know you think that jesus says he is the only son of god. I think not I think he really said that we are all the sons and daughters of god. (Yet this is the subject of another thread so I will stop now) | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/7/2006 10:38:33 PM | Very few people in the US have the honor or destiny to meet a real witch. One who will not only initiate you to the secrets of their art but guide you in their proper and safe use. Most of what is in books is either half truths speculation from an outside point of view or watered down mess that probably could make you confused lost and get you into quite a bit of trouble.
This is debatable on the definition of "witch," but I can see your point. As for the books and the mess, part of the Craft "back in the day" was to begin and advance, incorporating knowledge and weeding out that which was peripheral, unhelpful, or harmful. I view the modern version as similar, only now it's in the writings of the various folks "cashing in," rather than in testing the varieties of plants in the local forest.
For one to talk about the various forms of witchcraft that exist in the world as one thing is ignorance. There are so many forms of what people refer to as witchcraft it is mind numbing. Many of them are so different and contray in beliefs and practice that many would not even classify in the same catagory. In the west there is a habbit to generalize such subjects and to label them as witchcraft for fear, lack of knowledge and or care to go deeper into the subject.
Which might have a good deal to do with the fact that a major portion of the discussion to this point has revolved around the definition of terms and which aspects of Witchcraft were under debate. This is a well thought out, intelligent point. And now it's been made again. Thank you.
Most REAL "Witches" of many systems effected by this brutal imposition of the church would not openly admit they practice such things. Not for fear of the christian but, to keep their practice alive and well. Most people in the west do not posses the disipline or commitment to really follow the path of a traditional form of witch craft. Even those who do often cannot find a person who was iniated and trained by someone who is an expert in such things.
This is a fair observation. I don't necessarily accept it as truth, but it does seem to make sense. The trouble with it is, while traditional and hereditary Witches may still exist, if they're not "coming forward" to set the record straight, how are those who practice today to know that they're "not doing it right." That's one of the beauties I find in the Craft; that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to do what is effective. Caveat: this is not to say that there exist no moral standards, nor does it mean that I believe anything should work, since there's no "wrong" way to cast a spell. The distinction is that, if it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid. Again, the original forms of the vast majority of these traditions (Witchcraft and comparable styles the world over, whatever appellations people decide to ascribe to them) were processes of trial and error, searching out what magics worked to achieve given ends, guided by spiritual and intellectual reasoning and curiosity. Who's to say that, many of the connections to the older forms of these traditions now severed in the modern world, the attempt to learn and advance both spiritually and magically by a similar process of trial and error is entirely invalid? As for whether or not it's "REAL" Witchcraft, I don't think the label is necessarily as important as the substance. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/7/2006 10:57:59 PM | I cant agree with you more feral. It also depends again as to which form of witchcraft we are talking about. Many of the things most people have in history (Eurocentric) called witchcraft was nothing more than herbalism with tribal links. These forms of witchcraft potentially could be learned without a TON of guidence. Sympathetic magic as well not so difficult. When you are talking about more of the heavier stuff such as Palo monte/mayombe/kimbisa/chamalogo/congo and other such forms of witchcraft it is not only impossible to do it by yourself but VERY VERY dangerous. This is what I am refering to and also what this guy who claims humans never can have power without god knows absolutely nothing about. If he did I dont think he would even have the cajones to say it. I know for sure that jesus is not going to be any use in helping you with these lines of magic. While these forms of witchcraft are more often used for "Good" than "darker" purposes when inflicted on a person in the "DArk" way the results are not only fearsome but, often fatal.
Someones belief in jesus may protect them from a hex or an evil eye but, a powder is going to get them everytime!
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 1:21:14 AM |
When you are talking about more of the heavier stuff such as Palo monte/mayombe/kimbisa/chamalogo/congo and other such forms of witchcraft it is not only impossible to do it by yourself but VERY VERY dangerous.
Not to "talk down" to any of those traditions (some of those are new ones on me - any links?), but they are a bit afield of the Witchcraft we're talking here. I'm operating mostly off my own internal dictionary, but from what little I do know regarding some of them, I'd apply other classifications. Meantime, however, in my own conception of magic, nothing is entirely impossible. Technically improbable and prohibitively difficult, as well as, like you said, massively dangerous, but not necessarily impossible. (quibbling point, ignore me)
This is what I am refering to and also what this guy who claims humans never can have power without god knows absolutely nothing about.
I'd disagree with this, but only dependent on one's definition of God. The thing about that is that one can't really define God, you know? Always winds up getting bigger than whatever the issue is. Hence the allure, I'm sure.
I know for sure that jesus is not going to be any use in helping you with these lines of magic. ...Someones belief in jesus may protect them from a hex or an evil eye but, a powder is going to get them everytime!
See, this is what I mean. I know some folks who've been in the "grace seat" and pulled off some really groovy stuff. I wouldn't put anything past faith. Magic can work both ways, yes? | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 2:23:30 AM |
Most REAL "Witches" of many systems effected by this brutal imposition of the church would not openly admit they practice such things. Not for fear of the christian but, to keep their practice alive and well. Most people in the west do not posses the disipline or commitment to really follow the path of a traditional form of witch craft. Even those who do often cannot find a person who was iniated and trained by someone who is an expert in such things.
I don't disagree with most of what was said, and some of it, I have no knowledge of so really cant comment.
BUT the above statement bothers me in the fact, that too me it is the same elitist attitude that many other faiths have. i.e. "you couldn't have been a REAL Christian if you gave up the faith"
Those of us that practice modern day witch craft, like Feral said are learning all over again, and it will take time to regain what was lost, but I have no doubt we will regain it. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 3:04:23 AM | I can only speak about what I know of. I know not about learning other systems of witchcraft but, in palo I can asure you it is impossible to learn by yourself. It needs to be passed on.
The statement I made about god in the earlier post I was saying that rob was claiming that man can have no power without god. This is both true and false. True in the fact that god created everything false in the sense that man not only has his own power but, can use the power of other things HE and others with simular beliefs will consider outside of god. To me nothing is OUTSIDE of god including what most people consider evil.
Maybe that will help you to grasp what I was poorly communicating. You will find info on palo online but, please take most of it with a grain of salt its secrets are guarded very closely and you will not be able to learn about it without getting initiated to it. This is impossible if the spirits involved in this do not permit you. even if you and the person who will initiate you both wish you to be. You must be accepted by the spirits that rule the "house" you are trying to enter. Much of this proccess is held in the strictest of secrecy and of that part I am not permitted to speak. This form of witchcraft/religion is not open to everyone and is certainly not for everyone.
As far as for the part where people are saying that I am downing the faith someone may have in their god to protect them. Again misunderstanding me I said that your beliefs may help you greatly from sympathetic magic and such but, if someone uses a poweder made with magic as well as a secret mixture of things that will kill an elephant no ammount of faith is going to save your pathetic hide. There is a saying in brazil that makes alot of sense. Quem nao pode com mandinga nao correga patua! If you cant handle the sorcery dont get the talisman. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 85 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 3:26:43 AM | Now we are starting to reach into other Domains
Excellent
In Northern Brazil with the Yamomamo Indians I saw things that were definitely Witchcraft, but also not physically possible to make sense of
Up til now we have mainly being discussing 'normal' Witchcraft
At least 'normal' to Western Society
Now we are beginning to reach into the "True" Witchcraft, that has been there unaltered since time immemorial
This is not anything to do Celtic Witchcraft, yet it also has lots to do with it
It is very heavily based on communication and nature, but takes us into another 'plane', if you will accept that discription
When you compare the two, there are many basic similarities
But these types go far beyond anything I have seen/heard of in Celtic 'magic'
It is as though Celtic Magic has forgotten everything except the basics
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 3:28:31 AM | Not forgotten......destroyed and attempting to get back to.
There is a big difference. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 3:31:49 AM | I must stress so that people dont get the wrong idea that this religion/form of witchcraft is not only used for negative things it is far more often used to protect the weak, heal the sick, bring fertility to those who are in need, and to stop criminals from preying on women and children etc.
I get sick of people only speaking of its power in matters of war and vengence because people get the wrong idea....
Peace and best wishes on you path to rediscovery of that which was taken from us.
Our love for nature, our love and devotion to ancient gods and goddesses, our music, our languages, our spiritualities, our magics, our sacred connection with nature and each other as well as with the dead.
As is said God is above, God is below.
Nsalamalecum - May your guardians be with you.... | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 3:52:59 AM | I agree the struggle of the celtic people is a horrible history. The Christian church is forever shamed for its mistreatment of the world's tribal peoples. I doubt jesus would say anyone should burn anyone at the stake or commit genocide but, the church often not only turned the other way but, engaged openly and encouraged such behaviors as slavery, witch burning, tortures unspeakable, mass destruction of ancient culture, and peoples. With this much was lost but, all is not lost there is still a spark that can light a fire. or there would be no people like seriousfunnylady among the many other people who study witchcraft and other ancient forms of thought/religion. I believe The 'new age movment' is a backlash to the atrocities commited in the name of god.
One day I hope that the christians will remember that we are all brothers and sisters. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 3:55:28 AM | | I couldn't agree more Kabiosile, and I do truly believe that we are each called to the path we follow, just for some of us it takes a long time to hear the call. | |
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nergal
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Joined: 5/12/2005
Msg: 90 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 4:49:32 AM | | At the end of the day its just a label, whether or not you choose to adopt that label is up to you. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:00:14 AM | | a not so nice girl thats just bitter all the time | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 11:34:53 AM |
a not so nice girl thats just bitter all the time
I think you misread the question. We are talking about "witches" not replacing the w with a b. (since I know the word won't show up on here we'll just have to hope everyone gets that one :)) | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 12:39:07 PM | I was being silly, Lady_Fair
Should I adress the Bewitched version or the cliche Wizard of Oz version? Of course I always kinda like Sabrina. Oh I'm so confused now :)
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 94 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 1:05:13 PM | Well if I can write bitch, does that make it me a witch??
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 3:04:44 PM |
True in the fact that god created everything false in the sense that man not only has his own power but, can use the power of other things HE and others with simular beliefs will consider outside of god. To me nothing is OUTSIDE of god including what most people consider evil.
All of which merely serves to add to the truth of the original statement, in my view.
This is impossible if the spirits involved in this do not permit you. even if you and the person who will initiate you both wish you to be. You must be accepted by the spirits that rule the "house" you are trying to enter.
See, this is why I make the distinction between such a path and Witchcraft. By the description given here, I'd more likely classify it more as sorcery or shamanism. Yes, trifling detail, in some instances, but sometimes rather important, when considering the spirits involved, yes?
Again misunderstanding me I said that your beliefs may help you greatly from sympathetic magic and such but...
I didn't mean to imply that anyone was denigrating one path or another, but, honestly, I know power resides in many places. And, there are those, I'm sure who could deal with a powder or other "talisman" as you put it. I'm not arguing the effectiveness of such things (boy, am I not!), just the blanket statement that any given person's faith would be insufficient in a hypothetical instance.
It is as though Celtic Magic has forgotten everything except the basics
Not forgotten......destroyed and attempting to get back to.
I'll not claim to know the detail of whether or which, but I would argue the virtues of the many different systems.
One day I hope that the christians will remember that we are all brothers and sisters.
Many do. The difficulty with this is painting all of one sort with the same brush, even as they would do with us, who vary so widely. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 4:06:36 PM | lady fair, you can use the edit function to get past the censors. like this - fuck fuckety fuck fuck fuck.
only have a few things to add. there is no such thing as black or white magick. power is power. it becomes dark or light according to the intentions of the person it is channelled through.
sfl, if you are waiting for linderstreet to make sense, you have a loooong wait ahead of you. check some of his other posts...way out there.
the definition of real magick: using personal energy to affect a change in yourself or your environment. not very different from the definition of prayer...
all satanists(really should put that in quotes) are christians, as only christians believe in the christian god of evil, therefore they are not pagan.
old druid saying: all religions are paths to the same center, and noone has the right to judge the state of another person's soul. nobody's that damn special, although try to convince some of the psycho-religious of that...
feral's right - the necronomicon is a crock of shit, and belongs in the fiction section of the bookstore, although they insist on putting it in the new age section. there's a lot of lovecraft in there. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 5:37:27 PM | I am a Wiccan and come from a coven that can be traced back, to Gerald Gardner(The Father of modern Wicca himself). I hope I can shed some light on different asspect of this
disscussion of Witchcraft.
1) All witches are pagan, by deffinition, but not all Pagans are witches.
Pagan is a word that was used durring the Christian reform era of Rome to describe the
country dwellers, who still praised the old, or non Christian gods.
2) Many wiccans call themselves witches incorrectly. Witchcraft is a name that was given to certain techniques used by pagans, to make thing happen according to their wills. It in itself is not a religion.
3) Witchcraft being called black or white is merely perspective . White usually descibes those techniqes wich are used to help others. Black usually refers to those technqies done for selfish ends. Most witches fall somewhere in the middle in their practice of the craft.
4) Wicca, unlike Witchcraft is a religion with it's own codes of conduct, generally the Law of Return or Law of Three.
5) Last but not least, When a pagan does spell work to cause change in accordance with their wil, they usually don't try to change thr world. That would require more energy than most witches have. Instead they try to change themselves from the inside, so they can live more harmoniously with the world around them.
P.S. When books on wicca talk about the fluffy bunny stuff i.e. men accepting their femmine side, they overlook the Male mysteries. When they talk about attuning to the elements i.e. air, fire, water, earth, they don't mean litteraly. All though manny do take it that way, you can stand in a stream for 2 hrs a day for a year and not be anymore powerful.
It's the spirit of the element we want, or the part of ourselves that element stands for.
air = wisdom, fire = will, water = emotional involvement, earth = sense of balance, or stability.
P.S.S. Forgive my terrible spelling | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 5:48:26 PM |
you can use the edit function to get past the censors. like this - **** ****ety **** **** ****.
Kinda juvenile, but still absolutely hilarious!! 
As for the Necronomicon, it's still only slightly funnier taking folks back to the New Age section for that than it is for the Satanic Bible.
Spellbinder, good points. Thanks, man. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:11:41 PM | ^^^i HAVE retained my immaturity - proud of it in fact. i usually take those books out of the new age section, and put them where they belong - like in the christian section or the children's section...
to the dude above feral - why is the subject of men getting in touch with their feminine side "fluffy"? all people contain aspects of both the god and the goddess. men, particularly in western and islamic cultures, have been deprived of a great deal by having to conform to the macho image. i have talked to men from places like greece, who have commented on how repressed american men are, and how homophobic. in that country it is not uncommon for (straight) men to kiss each other on meeting, or walk down the street holding hands. thinking that there is something wrong with this kind of stuff, and the attitude that it is wrong to be emotional and affectionate, leads to a lot of loneliness, repression, and problems in relationships. women should also be encouraged to find in themselves the traits that have been considered the domain of men - assertiveness, strength, etc. women have also suffered from the gender roles that we have been indoctrinated with. there will always be differences between men and women - our brains function differently. however, we should all be allowed to reach our full potential as human beings. | |
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