| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:12:54 PM | On a slightly different note, but still in line with what is being discussed.
One of the things I have seen on other web sites is:
That Pagans worship nature, and that if nature was Divine then humans wouldn't beable to destroy it.
I think this is a misconception that other religions (dare I say non-believers) have about the Pagan faith.
We do not worship nature. We don't think that things in nature are God's and Goddess'. We recognize that all things have an energy force. We try and pull from the Universal Energy. But the Dietys that we worship are seperate from that.
Most of us respect the Earth and all things on it.
To refer to it as Mother Earth is really not much different then Christians knowing (from their perspective) that they came from dust and shall return to dust. They were born from the Earth =Mother Earth. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:22:13 PM | | ^^^ the basic idea is that we are not apart from nature, having the right to rule it - but rather we are a part of it, with responsiblity to it. we are meant to be the caretakers of the world, not its rulers. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:26:03 PM |
i have talked to men from places like greece, who have commented on how repressed american men are, and how homophobic. in that country it is not uncommon for (straight) men to kiss each other on meeting, or walk down the street holding hands. thinking that there is something wrong with this kind of stuff
beware of Greeks holding hands... just a cultural difference, Are you saying that Greek men are more in touch with their "feminine" side....gimme a break..Ever been there?? | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:29:17 PM | SFL and Sidhe, I entirely agree.
Never, was that meant to be posted in a different thread? | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 105 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:37:10 PM | ""the basic idea is that we are not apart from nature, having the right to rule it - but rather we are a part of it, with responsiblity to it. we are meant to be the caretakers of the world, not its rulers"".
^^ this is more of a modern point of view
The ancient Celts, including the Druids, Witches, Warlocks, whatever you wish to call them,
probably had no real respect for the 'things' of nature, just the 'Spirit'
They used nature and were more attuned to its powers
But in saying this, they merely took what they wanted
The Celts were warriors who left a trail of detruction behind them
When an area was 'worked out' they simply attacked a neighbour with better natural resources
We can pretend that the Druids etc etc were Ancient 'Greenies' but it is probably far from the truth
To protect things like the actual Oaks, that made most of their meeting places, would have been very natural to them
But this does not mean that all natural things were protected/looked after
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:42:31 PM | Feral, that was in response to Sidde post 100,
the basic idea is that we are not apart from nature, having the right to rule it - but rather we are a part of it, with responsiblity to it. we are meant to be the caretakers of the world, not its rulers"".
I have to agree Longte, the vision of the noble earth caring savage is false...Ravaging the earth has only come about since the industrial revolution..
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:42:48 PM | You could very well be right Longte, can you point me in a direction where I can study that aspect of it?
From what I have been able to find out, there aren't written records of the Druids so it would be very difficult to figure that one out.
Yet I really don't have a problem with religion evolving. IF that was the case, they probably thought at the time that it was limitless. We of this century are very aware that it isn't. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:45:35 PM |
there will always be differences between men and women - our brains function differently. however, we should all be allowed to reach our full potential as human beings.
Yeah, seems I missed that post. Sorry. Good call, though. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:56:28 PM |
I have to agree Longte, the vision of the noble earth caring savage is false...Ravaging the earth has only come about since the industrial revolution..
I disagree.
I think the Native Americans were very aware that they needed to not destroy what was around them. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 110 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:00:18 PM | But also remember that one of the Indians hunting methods was to set fire to the prairie to drive buffalo over cliffs etc
So there is good and bad in all cultures
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:08:57 PM | But also remember that one of the Indians hunting methods was to set fire to the prairie to drive buffalo over cliffs etc
One interesting note is that periodic fires seem to also be factored into the cycle of some natural habitats, to renew the vegetation and the soil. Similarly to the bases for the firestorms in the US Northwest a few years ago. It might be interesting to see if those particular hunting tactics were a case of wanton destruction, or if the Natives had simply appropriated and begun directing a natural cycle's technique. Kinda makes me wonder, anyway...
Edit: This is not to in anyway deify any particular culture or exempt them from harbouring the same base human impulses that tend to denigrate the good in our nature. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:40:38 PM | From what I was able to find, yes the Indians did set fires. some for hunting but not mass slaughter of entire herds.(First Quote)
The second for ecological reasons (Second Quote)
"These animals are ordinarily in great numbers (which) is easy to judge by the bones, the horns and skulls that we saw on all sides (of the river). The Miami’s hunt them at the end of autumn in the following manner: When they see a herd they gather in great numbers and set fire to the grass everywhere around these animals except some passage which they leave on purpose and where they take post with their bows and arrows. The buffalo, seeking to escape the fire are thus compelled to pass near these Indians, who sometimes kill as many as a hundred and twenty in a day, all of which they distribute according to the wants of the families . . .(Hennepin 1880)."
Source:http://dnr.state.il.us/conservation/naturalheritage/florafauna/document.htm
High evaporation and low rainfall makes it difficult for trees to grow on the Great Plains. Only along the river bottoms can most trees grow successfully in the natural way. The forests that lined the rivers in this dry country were affected over the millennia by prairie fires that roared into them from the surrounding grasslands. Soon the more vulnerable tree species were burned out, leaving the rivers edged with fire-resistant trees such as thick-barked oaks, willows and cottonwoods. The grasses were unaffected by these fires, since they rushed quickly over the surface of the land but did not touch the roots underground. Fire also destroys the dead plant material that accumulates among the grasses. If dead vegetation builds up, it smothers the growth of new grass in the spring; this is the single greatest natural factor in stopping the growth of tallgrass. Burning a prairie annually makes the growth of grass more abundant both below and above the ground. American Indians knew this and deliberately set the prairies on fire each year. The new green grasses sprouting up through the blackened earth attracted the bison, pronghorn and other grazing animals which the Indians needed to hunt for their survival.
Source:http://www.nps.gov/jeff/LewisClark2/TheJourney/Geography.htm | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:45:21 PM | Woah. I was right about something? Cool! | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:52:16 PM | | I did a search, and this is all I came up with Never. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:53:29 PM | | SFL, yes, thanks interesting post... | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:54:33 PM |
Call Guiness book of Records....
I love you, too, Never. In a Witchy, Greek (Platonic  ) way.  | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 117 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 7:54:56 PM | That sounds ok, but remember how small most tribal communities were
120 buffallo would feed/cloth a great many people
What about all the other creatures killed in the process??
I am not knocking this method of hunting as many semi-nomadic cultures used this world wide
Yet to our eyes it would be slaughter
It is too easy to choose only the best parts of ancient history to think about
With the second part, did the Indians know this about regeneration, or did the grasses adapt to being burnt off, and change to faster growing, more resiliant types??
There are always two sides to any story
I completely agree that there were many things the Indians could have taught us
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:00:49 PM | Most witches are vegetarians. We're not the ones sacrificing an animal and eating it's flesh twice a year.
Witches are peaceful and believe the good ( actions and thoughts) we put out comes back to us threefold.
Blessed be. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:03:10 PM | "See, this is why I make the distinction between such a path and Witchcraft. By the description given here, I'd more likely classify it more as sorcery or shamanism. Yes, trifling detail, in some instances, but sometimes rather important, when considering the spirits involved, yes?"-------------
In reference to this statement (the Paleros as people are called whom practice Palo) refer to this practice as a religion but, also as witchcraft and even others sorcery and shamanism. It is all primarily based around working with the dead as well as spirits of nature. It would probably be classified as a form of necromancy. The ansestors are VERY important in this form of practice. It is not easy to descibe such things in english for me for the language used for it is a mixture of spanish and ki-kongo from the bantu people of Africa. People become mounted (translation possesed) by the spirit of the "prenda" (this looks like a black cast iron pot full of elements of nature, dirt from a grave yard, bones of animals as well as human(s) among many other secret things. Also inside these pots are a strong elemental force not too unlike the orishas of santeria or the loa of vodun. One pot is ALWAYS "born" from another established pot. This is why I said it is impossible to do this craft by yourself. The spirit in the pot serves it's master in ALL matters and protects them like a mother does a child. The owner of the "Pot" treats this spirit as he would his dog. He feeds it and gives it what it needs to accomplish his goals. So I am not sure how you would classify this feral be interested to hear what you think. Paleros often are called witches in spanish so I figured the translation fit.
For the person who said witches do not believe in the devil or an evil force simular to it. I would say that would depend on the form of craft you speak. In palo there exists such a thing. If fact it is often worked with as well. A "Priest" or "witch" of palo is said to work with both hands. Meaning a palero will work both with positive and negative forces as is needed. The power of this art is EXTREME and it is well known for being one working very rapidly. If you need something "done" right away and dont want to wait see a Tata (translates to father) of palo.
As far as for this statement ---------"I'm sure who could deal with a powder or other "talisman" as you put it. I'm not arguing the effectiveness of such things (boy, am I not!), just the blanket statement that any given person's faith would be insufficient in a hypothetical instance."
Right misunderstood me hehe... The reason I made the statement I made about belief not helping with a "Powder" is because it has nothing to do with belief. We must remember that science and chemistry come from ancient forms of "Witchcraft" (Alchemy, herbalism, shamanism, sorcery etc) In fact many of scientist was often called a wizard. So these powders often contain things in them that you dont have to believe in to work. it is ancient science. In other words you are right and wrong about if someone will know how to conteract it. If you mean you may be fast enough to go to someone who can discern what has befallen you and knows the secrets well enough to counter act it. YES it is possible... What I was saying is that someone faith in a god is probably not going to save their hide in this case.
the saying about the talisman was cryptic the saying is " he whom cannot handle the sorcery does not take the talisman." It means if you cannot handle it dont mess...... in other words cant stand the heat get outa the kitchen.
------"All of which merely serves to add to the truth of the original statement, in my view."
K for this one I was making a point in the reason why many religions esp christians think that what they call "evil" is outside of god and somehow a weaker force that god. From this point of view comes the confusion in understanding other systems who view everything including evil/death as part of god. So I was kinda stating in a poor way that from Robs christian point of view evil and god are seperate (so says the bible far as I remember) So if that is the point of view he is taking by claiming to be a christian. That a person can get power from what they consider evil and they would attain power from outside of god in their point of view. So I guess what I was saying is that Rob is still holding on to pagan beliefs while telling us to come to god for our problems maybe I am reading it wrong though. heh | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:10:30 PM | | Longte while i agree there is "good" and "bad" as you call it in every culture the reason natives burned the land was to keep the huge fires that are happening now from happening. The reason we are seeing HUGE forest fires is because smokey the bear said to put out all fires. Many native tribes in their wisdom realized that if they set small fires on timed intervals they would keep the forest from getting so dense with fuel. It would burn the brush and smaller trees without getting hot enough to harm the entire forest. The forestry service now imitates this by doing what they call prescribed burning. The problem is that for the last 100 years I believe it has been fires have not been allowed to burn. Every little fire was put out so, now there are these HUGE forest fires that burn the entire forest to the ground. This is not a case of random distruction by the natives but a VERY wise way of preventing devistation. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:21:34 PM | ------------Most witches are vegetarians. We're not the ones sacrificing an animal and eating it's flesh twice a year.
Witches are peaceful and believe the good ( actions and thoughts) we put out comes back to us threefold.
Blessed be.-----------
While yes many "New age" witches are vegetarians. Not all witches are vegetarians in fact many of the african witches/shaman/priests whatever you wish to use not only sacrifice animals they eat them. The killing of the animal is not for the death or torture of it but, for the transmission of the VITAL force in the blood that gives life to the animals to the religious object to give it more power. The meat is then fed to the people as a sort of communion with the forces in question.
Humans are preditors by nature. we are NOT assembled like other vegetarians who almost always have eyes that can see behind them so they can see a preditor approaching. We have eyes that always look forward the setup for a true preditor. A part of our nature is to kill. The problem we face now is that we are over-populating because we have left the balance of nature and created a new fantasy word that cannot last forever.
Normally our population would be contained by the food supply (of meat and veggies) Yes we are omnivorous preditors much like many other primates. There is no problem with a person choosing to be a vegetarian if their body can handle it. Not everyone however can do this BTW (I almost died trying lol type O- blood.)
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:26:08 PM |
inside these pots are a strong elemental force not too unlike the orishas of santeria or the loa of vodun.
Really groovy, man. I was already noticing the similarities before I got to this point. It's really cool sometimes when you can see how it all interrelates, isn't it?
So I am not sure how you would classify this feral be interested to hear what you think. Paleros often are called witches in spanish so I figured the translation fit.
Yeah, the issue on that is that the Spanish used a lot of the same European Christian generalisations that were common in most Christian nations. The term, "Brujeria" literally means "witchcraft" or "witchery" but is commonly applied to many non-Christian magical styles. One important note regarding my own system of classification is just that: that it's my system, based on similarities and apparent connections between diverse magical traditions. It's also not set in stone, so new information tends to get synthesised into my worldview (not unlike, well, pretty much anything in human experience, actually). The Pot-spirit seems really similar to both the "fetish" spirits of some African tribes, as well as the govi used in Vodoun. It also, with the feeding and protection angles, somewhat resembles the Malaysian (I think, might have a memory issue here) pelesit. I would probably (in my own system) classify this more as a form of sorcery, with a bit of necromantic shamanism to cover the ancestor factor. Question: Is the Pot-spirit associated with the ancestors, or is it viewed as a form of "composite?"
For the person who said witches do not believe in the devil or an evil force simular to it. I would say that would depend on the form of craft you speak. In palo there exists such a thing.
Interesting. I think the person to whom you're referring, though, might have meant in the distinctive image of the Christian devil. I'm well aware that almost all witches I've met have acknowledged "evil" beings or "negative" powers. I am curious, though, does the Palo concept of the "evil god" mean a single representative figure of darkness with subordinate minions, or simply negative complements to the light?
...a Tata (translates to father) of palo.
More relations with the Caribbean spirit religions. Groovy.
In other words you are right and wrong about if someone will know how to conteract it.
I'll give you that. But faith can work wonders...
And, I actually really liked the saying. I'm going to wind up using that now...
K for this one I was making a point in the reason why many religions esp christians think that what they call "evil" is outside of god and somehow a weaker force that god.
I figured as much. Just keepin' it all together, so to speak. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:54:05 PM | -------Question: Is the Pot-spirit associated with the ancestors, or is it viewed as a form of "composite?"----
Ok so, the spirit that goes into the pot is of a dead person whom the palero makes a pact with. The spirit of the dead through a secret ritual is questioned if it will work for the palero or not. If the spirit chooses not to he moves on and finds the one who will. They will select a type of person that fits what the needs are. IE if they looking for a "Jewish" prenda (this is how ones for primarily negative uses are refered funny huh?) the spirit that will be sought after will be of a madman, a murderer or other spirit that would not hesitate to do whatever dirty deed needed to be done. If it is a "Christian" prenda (the term ironically used for the prendas that are used to heal and do primarily beneficial things) they would look for a spirit that would comliment such a prenda. Much of the other stuff I know is not for the unintiated so I will stop here.
Sometimes the spirit put into the pot can be ancestrial as well. They can be passed down to others as well. There are even some that are from the congo originally in cuba. This form of this religion is practiced mostly in cuba thus the relation to the other carib religions. There are a number of practitioners here in the states as well.
There exists religions like this in all the countries where african peoples where taken as slaves from the bantu regions. There are many forms of what people would refer to as witchcraft/shamanism/sorcery/religion in africa and anywhere the decendants of such have been taken or traveled. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:58:07 PM | I don't disagree with you completly Longte,
I tried to find something about village size for the Plains Indians but the only one I found was for the Indians on the East Coast.
Their Villages averaged about 500 people.
Yes in this day and age there would be a terrible outcry if the Buffalo were killed that way. But we have the ability to drive to the grocery store, buy what we need for the day/week/month. All wrapped up nice in a package.
They had to consider that this was going to be their main stay for clothing, shelter, tools as well as food to get them through the winter.
As for the Grass, I think that they probably were concerned at one time when they saw their beloved plains catch on fire from lightening, only to migrate back the next year and see it very lush. It wouldn't take much for them to figure it out.
Basically my thoughts here are that survival for us is much easier, so it is also much eaiser for us to consider what we are doing to our planet. Yet I think we do more damage then the Indians ever thought about doing.
Now on to the poster that said most Witches were vegetarians.....sorry, not me. I eat meat and so do all the witches I have come in contact with in real life. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 9:02:14 PM | | Yeah, definitely "necromantic sorcery" in my book. Not to say there's anything wrong with that, it's just the classification I'd put it under. Really interesting, though. I'm definitely going to have to do more research on that. | |
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