| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 9:18:24 PM | | Yeah feral most of it falls well under that classification but, there are other parts that would fall under shamanism/ religion/ witchcraft there is a whole bunch of aspects to this religion. it is far more than just a pot with spirits in it... Enjoy there is a book called drumming for the gods real good talks about santeria palo and abakua in matanzas cuba. VERY good information in there. There are some books you will want to stay away from but, I will let you decide you seem like you can sift through shit well enough. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/8/2006 9:31:07 PM | | Oh, of course there's variety in every religion and magical tradition. It just makes it easier to understand at times to generalise a bit. Kind of finding relational supports from disparate places to help one figure exactly how something new works. Cool stuff, though. I'll have to look for that book (more reading...). | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 5:17:11 AM | | Oh no, we are going to lose Feral for awhile, so he can dive into another exploration. LOL | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 129 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 5:32:08 AM | Exploration is one of the greatest joys
Yet sometimes we need to be careful what we find
The pot of gold often can have a poisonous lining
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 9:24:18 AM | | longte, i was mostly referring to indians when i spoke of respect for nature, and you aren't taking some things into consideration when you talk about how many buffalo they killed. there used to be a hell of a lot of buffalo. they are so big that not much is really going to kill enough of them to keep their numbers in check, except humans. unlike a lot of hunters today, who sometimes only take the choice cuts of meat from the animals they kill(except for the non-edible predators they kill for fun), or only use the meat, indians used THE WHOLE ANIMAL - skin, meat, fat, bones, teeth - everything. they didn't waste much. didn't believe in it. if you don't think indians cared about the things they hunted, or their environment, then you know very little about indians. don't mess with my peeps. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 12:20:30 PM | | There is nothing wrong with ANY animal on this planet humans included in killing things for their food and survival it is what is ment to happen. The probelm is when we get out of balance and do harm instead of good to the animals we are killing. IE It is good for an animal if a preditor kills the sick and weak and shaves down the population. This actually strengthens the genetics of the spiecies and does the animals a favor. The people who believe that no animal should ever be killed are not only naive but, does not understand very basic things about overpopulation and webs of life. The problem here is that humans are a top preditor and this means we have no preditor to keep us in check unless you consider viruses a preditor (I think they are) Humans also have another passtime we call war which thins our numbers as well. We have even bungled this one by creating nukes and more efficient than needed ways of destroying that go far beyond the needed level. The problem with what happened to the buffalo has little to do with the natives and much more to do with the euopeans who hunted the buffalo ALMOST to exstiction with rifles during the 19th century esp. Luckily there are people now who have ranches of buffalo and they are breeding and releasing them back into the wild to do what nature intended them to do. In fact strange as it might sound Ted turner is a HUGE help in this proccess he has a HUGE amount of these buffalo on a ranch in New Mexico and he even helps to populate the buffalo near native reservations. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 132 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 3:10:20 PM | Actually I know a substantial ammount about Indians
We look back with rose tinted glasses at many of the things they actually did
All semi-nomadic tribes, world wide, respected nature up to a point
But it was always up to a point
That point may have been a lot higher than how others respected it
All I did was give a simple example of a hunting method used
No disrespect or anything else was meant by it
Just the simple fact that this method will always kill things that would have been alive otherwise
Yes it 'could' be environmentally friendly in some cases, but what about the rest of the smaller animals that died??
Yes if the white man had never gone to USA there would be more buffalo, but that is true of most species that were nearly/completely wiped out, in all countries | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 5:27:17 PM | | I think that we are not conflicting in our statements and I agree that many people look at many cultures with "Rose colored glasses" as you say. Many people still think colombus was a great guy LOL. I not only agree with ya on this matter but, again I say not a problem with hunting or killing animals or things in nature the problem is keeping it in balance. I think that almost any tribal people no matter what origin had a better grasp on it than the takers that run things now. Yes I did use a word from that movie LOL. It was a good one if you havent seen it. Forget the exact title had anthony hopkins in it something instict dont remember the name lol but, was a great line. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 9:12:45 PM | I also understand that the Natives forms of hunting in some instances were not all sweetness and light. YET again....a few years back while walking with the dogs we came across the bodys of 10 Deer heaped one on top of the other with only the Hind quarters gone.
The waste of such a beautiful animal is a crime, and I am not talking in the legal sense. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 9:14:57 PM | I agree with you SFL...
Crimes of nature...
but then we all commit them, every time we drive our cars... heh
Still if we must kill animals, we should use every little bit for one thing or another... and give their death some sort of purpose. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/9/2006 9:48:50 PM | | A number of bald eagles carcasses were found around Vancouver. I believe thay traced the the acts to a native "canadian" if I remember rightly. Now I know this does not "taint' the whole community, but there had to be a demand for the eagles feathers.. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 137 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 1:14:55 AM | Ok Back on Topic
Where and when is someone actually a witch??
From a Western point of view it includes AmerIndian/Celtic as the two main varieties
Where do we draw the line after that??
We can include so many others that class themselves as Witches/Shamans/ etc etc
But for the sake of this thread, is there a line, where we say, oops no more, that is getting into other fields??
I have never had any involvement with Egyptian Witchcraft for example
Yet from very limited knowledge it seems to be a fairly strong example of a very different, and fairly powerful variety of 'older style' witchcraft
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 5:56:22 AM | Good longte lets get back on topic. I can tell you that there exists many VERY ancient forms of "witchcraft"/Shamanism/sorcery in africa from the various cultures that exisit on that continent. I am certain that there exists such things in all cultures in all parts of the world at one time or another. If they still exist today is the question. Many of these cultures were damaged or outright destroyed due to fear or religious zealots. The plight of the celtics is a prime example. I would say dont close the door on any form of it due to the place or culture it comes from. Like I was saying with feral I find it interesting how people classify such things. I find it disturbing that people seem to only think of eurocentric and native americans as the ones holding exclusive control over such things. For there exist many other forms of it thought the world and across racial/cultural lines.
It is as ancient as mankind and I think if we go back far enough we all come from the same group of people. The coolest part of this whole thing is that no matter where these people went "witchcraft" as it is called has gone with them. We have always had a need as people for spirituality as well as various crafts to deal with the complications of life. Be it sickness, revenge, attracting lovers, firtility issues, attracting prosperity, dealing with death, and the many other trials of life. Man has found ways to work with nature as well as other forces to solve these issues long before any one of the desert religions decided to write holy books and such. Long before there was writing there was witchcraft. It is probably without a doubt one of the more ancient forms of religion. Like I said in my opinion even jesus was a witch of sort. if not a witch definately a witch doctor. I know some people going to quote me bible verses on this and disagree but, I think if you thought about it with an open mind you might see where I was comming from.
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 7:12:38 AM | a female warlock
sorcerous
wizard(ess)?
magician
A lady that can cast spells for good or ill like in Wizard of Oz or Harry Potter. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 140 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 7:35:11 AM | Kabiosile
In theory you could be correct about Jesus Christ
There was a large portion of his life, that has never been accounted for
Could this have been the period when he learned the 'trade'
Now just one small point; I would have always classified a Witchdoctor as a Witch, yet you differentiate between them
Is there a reason why you don't call them Witches also??
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 7:37:19 AM | | I thought he did when he metioned shamans... aren't witch doctors, shamans? | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 142 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 7:42:07 AM | ^^ That is exactly why I asked the question
He seems to know a lot about African Origin practices
I think there must be a reason to not include them
Their terminology may be different to ours
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 7:44:01 AM | | I understand. I'll admit I made the assumption he was including them | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 6:50:33 PM | Witch doctor is an eglish word so you may have a better grasp on the correct use than I. I would think that witch doctors would fall under shaman. A witch in my opinion is a person who uses any or all of the following: form of magic/herbalism/rituals/ nature based spells/and sometimes I have heard the term go for people who work with pagan gods and goddesses as well.
As for the post about female version of various tittles as follows far as what I learned....
I am not always perfect with english tittles though.
Female Male
Sorceress Sorcerer
Witch/Priestess Warlock(european) but can aslo be called witch.
Ok let me explain why i put priestess and warlock in the same catagory. because depending on who you ask I have heard warlock can be tittle given to a male witch but, it can also be a tittle for a priest of a pagan style god. Priestess I think would be proper term for feamle version also have heard can substitute witch in some circles for some they say witch is a tittle given to feamles and warlock to males. Yet in other circles witch is interchangeable for male or female. Some even throw in the word wizard, It really depends who you ask and from what tradition they come as to the answer you get. I think they are all right if the people who you deal with know what the hell you are talking about. It is dependant on the best term to describe what you are talking about if you are translating from another language IE the tradition in question does not use english for its language. In this case You must choose the closest fitting term as I am trying to do. As for the ones that use english I think my chart is at least close. Throw in any ideas or knowledge you guys got on the subject I would love to learn more terms for such things in english. I think it may be even nicer if you can give a short definition of what you think each name might do. IE sorcerer: A person who wields magics (sorcery) of any type exclusivly to achieve his goals.
Cant wait to see you guys posting now
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 145 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 8:04:24 PM | This is where it starts getting interesting
Because a Priest is usually only well recognised as being Christian in Western Culture
Whereas a Priestess, will usually be recognised as probably Pagan
If you say to someone you saw a priest today, they will ask you about his church
Same statement about a priestess, and they wonder what forest she lives in
A priest/priestess is more usually a celebrant/ritual organiser more than an actual 'Practioner' of the 'Witch' type actions
More of a ceremonial figure than an adept in many cases
But in saying that, they can be both
So where do we draw the line in the sand there?
Now a Warlock I would consider to usually be an adept, so I personally would seperate them
Wizard seems to more of an archaic name, or one for childrens books, and I don't think I have ever heard any modern adept calling themselves a Wizard
Sorceror conjures up images of 'Black' Magic being used [dont jump on that one, I just needed a way to differentiate] rather than 'White' magic
Witch Doctor and Shaman I would put in the same category, although a lot of others wouldn't
Witch Doctors have had a lot of bad press, whereas Shaman gives the impression of herbal trances, only doing good, wisdom etc
I think I have a reasonable command of English, but even so, it is not easy to break these up into defined 'sections,' as they all tend to overlap each other
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/10/2006 11:47:33 PM | I am interested in everyones opinion on this for it help me learn how to classify other forms in english. I tend to disagree with this statement though.
-------------"Witch Doctors have had a lot of bad press, whereas Shaman gives the impression of herbal trances, only doing good, wisdom etc"---------------
Shamans not only can but, often do have to deal out "black magic" and I would never say the exclusively do good. Witch doctor depends on who you ask what this means. Yes I agree bad press part but, for many a witch doctor is a shaman type that you goto for instead of western doc be it for psychological problems, medical problems, and even spiritual problems for these are all often linked to one another. We are not compartmentalized machines that should be treated seperately but, a whole person who needs to be "Firmed" up often in all of these areas to heal a problem that seems on the outside to be effecting one of these areas more than another. IE your symptoms might be that you have sugar problems but the cause of this can be mental, as well as lack of physical workout, caused by a spiritual problem. A witch doctor will work with the spirits they deal with give you herbs and may even do something esoteric like send you up to the top of a mountain everyday to perform a ritual to get a certain herb he needs for something else to make your ass get some needed physical exercise as well as nourish your spirit. This will "Firm" you up in the needed areas and probably "Cure" your problem. (This is all hypothetical of course or is it? hehehe)
So in the end bad press or not if it works it works. Most of the bad press is due to the doctors wanting to keep you on their drugs so they can get paid *CACHING* (the sound of the cash register) If we all discovered how to take care of ourselves properly with the help of traditions and witchdoctors. We would only need western meds for when a car crashes into us and breaks all our bones etc. In other words man made problems require man made cures (Western meds) Chronic illness is often caused from inbalance of mind body and spirit... Better off going to someone who will treat this as a whole issue instead of someone who will treat the symptoms endlessly with drugs that will only cause some other problem or imbalance. The witchdoctor in this case seems like not only a very viable solution but, in my opinion a smarter one. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 147 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/11/2006 12:18:04 AM | Can only agree with most of it
That was why I said I consider Shaman and Witch Doctor as similar
Now I am very intolerant of most Western Medical practices as far as pills etc go
But I am not too sure about the efficiency of most Witch Doctors either
Whereas if someone was called a Shaman I would definitely consider going to him
Same action by the practioner but a different name
I really do like the attitude and capability of Chinese Herbalists/Acupunture/Doctors etc, but I would not consider them as Witch Doctors although they use very similar cures in some cases
In Australia we have some pretty horrific stories about the 'bad' results of some Witch Doctors
but some Tribal Elders are very aware of Rites and Rituals, that we consider more as Shaman Type, and these are widely respected
The name Witch Doctor brings to mind, even in myself, Tarzan fighting some bone covered horror from the dark ages.
{Hollywood has a lot to answer for}
Whereas Shaman evokes Wisdom and Mystery
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/11/2006 1:31:18 AM | | I think I can agree with you but, I think your definition of witch doctor is regional. You may have another understanding of the word. I see witch doctor as being a fair tittle and can in the past before chinese healing techniques were en vouge and commonly accessable knowledge they would have probably fallen under the catagory witch doctor. A witch doctor in my opinion does not have to be a huckster. Although, I do see where you are comming from with what your saying. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 149 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/11/2006 1:47:41 AM | I always try to get out into country areas when I travel
Met a few Witch Doctors in both Angola and Kenya, and different parts of Brazil
Some were obviously just there and acting for gullible tourists, but some were able to do things that I could find no rational explanation for
The respect these gentlemen recieved was amazing and seemingly well deserved
But being a foreigner it was difficult to get assimilated quickly enough to understand very much of their processes
So where the logical part of me says, "Bloody Beauty, I can meet a Witch Doctor"
the Hollywood influence made me a bit sceptical
But if the same person is called a Shaman I have different preconcieved ideas
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/11/2006 4:18:43 AM |
If you say to someone you saw a priest today, they will ask you about his church
Same statement about a priestess, and they wonder what forest she lives in
 Longte, I like that, and it is true, at least regarding Western comprehension.
For Kabiosile (and anyone else who cares), from the Feral dictionary*, some definitions** (mostly from under Religion and Magic):
Priest, m. priest; f. priestess - a religious leader who directs or presides over ritual ceremonies of worship.
Witchcraft, syn. the "Craft" - a magical system utilising material objects and spiritual forces in symbolic forms to direct the will through crafting. This can refer to charms (crafted objects), spells that use symbolically created patterns, and a wide variety of medicinal and magical concoctions.
Practitioner: m. witch, warlock; f. witch. In a general sense, someone who practices magic, but the basic definition actually does refer to a specific ideology and technique. The term "warlock" does carry a negative connotation for some, but (this was an update) can be used as a valid title.
Wizardry - a magical system, commonly referred to as "high magic" or "high ritual magic" that draws on the power of the intellect and the inherent power in concepts and forms to ritually focus the will.
Practitioner: wizard. This is generally assumed to be a masculine appellation, none known for females. In fact, I don't know if any females do perform this style. I'll have to check around.
Sorcery - a magical system wherein the practitioner bargains with spiritual entities for power (as in "direct infusion of") or favours (as in "granted wishes" kind of thing). Value judgements aside, this isn't in reference to pacts with demons, although they would also be covered under this rubric. Practitioner: m. sorcerer; f. sorceress. There generally is a sort of connotation toward negativity when using this term, primarily due to stigma attached to those who would "deal with devils," however, with some small knowledge of the kinds of deals that might have to be made with some beings, caution is the watchword.
Shamanism - a system of religion and magic in which the practitioner/priest communicates and communes with the spiritual world, invoking their power and manifesting it through spell and prayer. The distinctive feature in this system is usually a symbolic or even literal death of the practitioner during which the connection between shaman and spirits is forged.
Practitioner: shaman. The term is (I believe) gender-neutral and can be used for either a woman or a man.
Necromancy - a magical system, the name of which is etymologically jacked up, but which refers to magic through the acts of dealing with, communing with, just generally contacting, and summoning the dead. Somewhat closely related to shamanism in this way, as well as to sorcery (probably more closely related to sorcery than anything), but neither the bargains of sorcery nor the inherent spiritual connection of shamanism are strictly a rule. Necromancy is more a cross-disciplinary subset of many other forms and is distinct merely for its connection to death and the dead.
Practitioner: necromancer (entirely gender-neutral and usable by anyone). This also has definite serious negative connotations in many cultures and traditions, ordinarily considered to be accomplished through dangerous or unnatural means, or for selfish or destructive ends.
*Arguably, a collection of electrochemical pathways in the grey matter between Feral's ears
**None of which are to be taken as "canon," as they are likely to change wording within days or even minutes of formulation. The senses maintain, but the specific wording is always subject to change.
Looks like that's all I've got right now, but I do have a lot more. I think this covers most of what we've been discussing. Honestly, I think it might go better in the "Not a Spell Exchange" thread (and I'm not saying that because it's a thread I started), but since it's all related to witchcraft, and is all relegated to the purview of witches in the eyes of those who have no experience of ritual magic, it certainly belongs here, as well. | |
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