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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/16/2006 10:11:06 PM |
Just thought I would give you a heads up Feral, that not all Luciferians and Diabloists are Bible haters either, some are Torah haters and some Koran haters.
Thanks for catching that, Raziel. I hadn't intended to give the impression that all these devil-worshipers were solely counter-Christian. The point I was trying to make was that those were the groups of which I was aware that generally shared the orthodox Judeo-Christian cosmology while following the oppositional path.
White witches and Black witches are just racism disguised in a good and evil form of vernacular. east west north south makes more sense like in the Wizard of Oz.
The Universe is dimensional so witches should reflect this in their opposing positions, well at least in my semi scientific approach to it anyway that doesn't matter either.
Okay, Kabiosile and SFL just bangin' nails on the head up in here! I do have to toss in my bit, for whatever it's worth. This portion is weird, and I'd like some clarification, since it doesn't make much sense to me. As far as I can tell, the disctinctions between "white" and "black" witchcraft are artificial, created by folks who don't realise what they're discussing. Sure, there are witches who label themselves as "white" witches, but this is generally held to denote some measure of their intent in practicing their art. Otherwise, the distinctions generally tend to be rather arbitrary, decided upon by outsiders to try and label someone or something they don't entirely understand. The important thing to keep in mind, I think is that most witches do not consider themselves to have inherently taken a particular stance on "good" or "evil," or if they have, they generally believe, like most people, that they are good. I've never been privy to any serious considerations of witches who consider themselves "oppositional" to any elemental, directional, or moral force, except in specific instances when they were called upon to mediate for others or to "put down" something that was too dangerous to remain where it was.
Best of luck with your revival of something that is vertually unknown and has since been developed out of various fantasies and fiction and dreams and desires of people in need of comfort in this sometime seemingly cruel and heartless world.
I don't want to believe that this was the jab it appeared to be, but I'm a suspicious b*stard, and I tend to jump before thinking. I'll give folks the benefit of the doubt, but for those that think along the lines I hope this wasn't intended, I will say that, yes, much of modern Wicca and New Age has a tendency to include the personal phantasy and fiction-based "understanding" of many of the practitioners. This, however, does not invalidate the serious reconstruction of the religious paths taken by many sincere scholars and willworkers, nor is it a bad thing that individual practitioners include their own symbology and psychological understandings of the workings of the universe. Like I've said before, while the Necronomicon is a pile of crap, it works, because it can be used to tap into the fundamental emotional bases used by those who would use it for "magic" and it ties them to significant, very real, very powerful forces at work in the cosmos.
As is my habit, though, while I may disagree, I would always enjoy reading any references from which you support your views or any clarification you can provide. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 12:12:57 AM | Feral,
Maybe my brain is tired, but I'm not sure I used any color other then Green to identify witches, I have talked about darker sides..and neg. energy....or were you not asking me a question in the above paragraph.....(sooooooo confused) | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 203 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 12:38:13 AM | What is a witch
Do you look to fantacy
to find the witches there
riding on a broomstick
black garb and matted hair
eye of newt and other bits
tossed into their pot
Do you think of witches
then think this is the lot
Or wander into Celtic yore
to find a lovely witch
Enchanting and healing
and other things like this
Maiden of the forest
curer of all that ails
Her life is love and light
all that this entails
Do you visit the arcane
with its unusual spells
Creature from another plane
maybe out of hell
Symbols and pentacles
writings on the wall
These are also witches
but they are not all
Look into the shaman
is that witchery
or forever will it stay
bathed in mystery
Herbal trance enlivening
taking you away
into another place in time
where you can go or stay
Bones will be the measure
of witches of another kind
Reality will fade away
illusion is a state of mind
In a distant tribal setting
please do not be weak
You must be very strong
if answers there you seek
Forget all your upbringing
enter witchery with open mind
perhaps then contentment
is truely what you'll find
..
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 205 | |
| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 1:25:49 AM | If its poetry I only post my own stuff
Feel free to use it
Just seemed right to jot it out at the time
..
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 7:09:58 AM | Lonte, you would make a wonderful travel guide! | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 8:31:13 AM | Witches were primarily Pagans who had not been indocrinated under the umbrella of the Judaeo/Christian/Islamic theology.
Pagans were those that worshipped for thousands of years the cycles of the earth, moon, sun and stars. They were forced to submit their beliefs to their oppressors. Modern priestly temples were simply erected over ancient goddess temples if not destroyed.
The Pagans worshipped the Goddess that the above mentioned Temple Priests slay in the consciousness of spiritual man.
The intellectuals of the time, the ancient mythmakers layered their theology over pagan belief and ritual.
Follow the trail of HIStory back and its beginning is where the trail of HERstory ended.
See why they fear the witch?
The witch is the Goddess who connects us to the earth.
The ritual and chant meant to awaken the goddess within each of us...it is our mother nature that we must nurture...so it became necessary to remove the Goddess from the consciousness to disconnect man from nature.
"we paved over paradise and called it a parking lot"
The only trail back for the collective is to awaken the Goddess that the Temple Priests slay in scripture.
Mother Nature ... Planet Earth .... Gaea
namaste | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 6:21:03 PM | --------------"Follow the trail of HIStory back and its beginning is where the trail of HERstory ended.
See why they fear the witch?
The witch is the Goddess who connects us to the earth.
The ritual and chant meant to awaken the goddess within each of us...it is our mother nature that we must nurture...so it became necessary to remove the Goddess from the consciousness to disconnect man from nature."----------------------
Ok this is interesting. While I do not deny there are VERY powerful groups that not only have matriarcal societies and female goddess as the head not all witches are such. There are VERY potent forms of magics that are patriarical as well. These people are often equally refered to as witches.
While I do agree that modern christian culture frowns on females being in positions of power I dont think this is why they fear witches. I think somewhere in there upbringing they were taught to fear anything outside of the church. Look at peoples reaction to secular music esp black secular music like rock and roll or blues with overt sexual reference. This stems from the bantu people who are often "risque" and overtly sexual in their dance and music. Let me name some world musics Heavily influenced by bantu if not outright bantu musics. Samba, Rumba, rock and roll, blues, merenge, certain forms of hip hop/rap. These are only a small list of secular musics influenced by if not fully bantu. So whats my point? It is that people can say that the christian people hated this music because it comes from blacks but, this is not the main reason they hated it. (and some few still do) They hated such music because it was overly sexual in their opinion it was a culture clash. I am sure there are plenty of people who hate witches because some branches of it have matriarical societies and divinities but, I suggest to you that perhaps there are far more people who object and dont know shit about it even to know enough about your goddess. They hate you because they were told to hate you, just like a guy from a redneck town in the middle of nowhere who has never met a black man might say he don't like em. It is based in ignorance and fear and they never even give the object or person or religion a chance to even get to the part about your beliefs in anything or what your character is. They see anything the church or their officials say is evil as evil. Everything must fit their definitions their standards their way and must bend down on their knees in front of their holy jesus. You are asking too much from them to understand you or your goddess or to even learn enough about you to care if the church and their priests say that you practice something evil/outside of jesus(god). This is not to say there are not christians who are more spiritual then dogmatic and do learn about these things and can even become great friends and companions for I would be equally as ignorant to group them all into a general thing. What I am saying to you is that there is a small chance they even know that alot of new age and certain older pagan styles of witch craft have goddess. More likely they hear the word witch and say one of two things. Trick or Treat. Or hell and damnation ... Get my drift? | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 6:37:41 PM | --------------------"[It has been proven over and over that word of mouth distorts information and fact into nicely embellished stories and misunderstandings of the original so live with it]"-------------------------
Interesting thought I highly disagree with you but, I can see how this may be true with some traditions
ah... i too like your examples but what I was refering to was studies by anthropologists and psychologists throught the 60's and 70's that I read and there are simple little tests you can do at home.
They gave people stories that were orginally read to them... then the people told the stories to other people who told them to other people etc..... by 6 or 7 tellings the stories had signifigantly changed to the point of misinterpretations of phrasing and also leading to changing the meanings of the stories. You can do this at a party some time... Write a little myth.. about 3 sentences and tell it to someone and have them word of mouth pass it on to someone else.. then see what is said by the time it gets back to you.
I do understand that most religions around the world relied on this method and most cultures also to pass on their traditions and beliefs... rock paintings did a better job than word of mouth when left on their own.... most often though the word of mouth would use symbols carved or painted to help with the tails. I am not saying all meaning was lost... but specific and detailed meanings were most surely lost in these things that were passed through the ages. And all scientific testing done in this direction has pretty much proven that.
I am from the celts geneticly and i believe in some genetic memories also being present in my personal beliefs and feelings about the earth and religion... but I have yet to find any truth in most of the formalizations of any of the religions... To me its more personal between me and the universe .
On some things I am sure you are right, but obviously since the discussion has gone on for 8 pages, with more and more clarifications thrown in, apparently my paragraph wasnt' enough.
I am not sure there really are any more clarifications... just more beating around the bush and attempts to justify things that are not in the simple explanations like in the dictionary. I do see places for essays but I also know the structure of essays and generally they can be condenced into a couple of sentences. The main body of an essay is "structure of arguement" and "evidence for that structure". But the question at the beginning can be stated in a sentence and the answer to the question can be stated in a sentence or two. Just about every essay I analyzed in University fit into this structure.
Keep on truckin
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/17/2006 9:19:43 PM | So I've been away for a while, and honestly haven't updated myself on the gossip...but I read this beautiful, and mostly true story by Susun Weed, founder of the Wise Woman Center...and thought I would share it here. She's written several books, and it's easy to see why...she has an awesome talent for prose as far as getting the point across. Granted this is just one way of thinking...but it somewhat applies.
THE GODDESS IS ALIVE IN EVERY WOMAN
The True Story of How She Came to Be, How She Disappeared, and How She Returned
by Susun S Weed
In the beginning, everything began, as it always does, with birth. The Great Mother of All gave birth, and the Earth began to breathe. Again, and again, and again, the Great Mother gave birth. And the plants began to breathe and the animals began to breathe and the two-legged ones began to breathe. All forms of life began to breathe. To breathe, to live. In the air, on the land, in the water, and even in the fires of deep sulfurous vents where light never shines, all forms of life began to breathe. And they were all very hungry.
"What shall we eat?" they asked the Great Mother. "You eat me," she said with a smile. And they did. They ate of Her body. The plants sent their roots down into the earth and they ate of Her flesh and Her bones. The plants drank Her clear blood. From her deep springs, from her flowing waters, the plants ate. And they grew strong. And they gave birth. The grasses multiplied and rippled in the wind. Roots grew fat and juicy. And everywhere there were amazingly-shaped leaves, and flowers of many colors, and fruits wondrous to behold.
The animals ate Her. They did not eat Her flesh and Her bones as the plants did. They could not send their roots into Her, for they had legs and they moved about on the face of the Earth. Some of the animals ate of the grasses that grew from the Mother. Some of the two-legged ones ate the seeds of the grasses and the roots of the plants and their leaves. They ate and they ate and they ate. They began to give to birth, too. Soon there were many, many mouths eating the Mother. There were many, many feet stirring up the red dust of the Mother. There were many mouths to praise her abundance. And many mouths to feed.
"I am you and you are me. I am here for you to eat. Now eat me. Eat all of me." she urged them. And some of the animals ate Her flesh and Her bones in the form of the other animals. And some of the two-legged ones ate Her flesh and Her bones in the form of the animals. And her clear blood became red. And this red blood flowed in the bodies of the animals and the bodies of the two-leggeds who ate of the animals who ate of the plants who ate of Her. And the Great Mother was well pleased.
Now this red blood flowed in the bodies of the two-legged ones. It flowed in their bodies and it sang to them. This red blood sang to them of the endless wisdom of the Great Mother, and the endless dance of the moon, and the endless spiral of birth and life and death. And the ones who were round and full like the Mother felt the blood stirring in their bellies. The good red blood moved in their bellies and they were full of wonder, and they said to the Mother: "What shall we do with the red blood that moves so strongly in our bellies, Mother?" And she replied: "Give it to me. Return this blood to me. Nourish me. Allow me to replenish myself from your blood." And so they did.
Each month when the moon grew dark and disappeared, the blood began to flow from between the legs of some of the two-legged ones. From the wombs of the two-legged ones, the blood flowed: red and rich and nourishing. The red blood flowed into Her and she said: "You are me and I am you. Your blood is my blood. And my blood is yours. Forever and forever, we will nourish each other. And if you will keep holy the days of your bleeding, I will teach you all the secrets of the plants and the animals. And if you will keep holy the days of your bleeding, I will teach you all the secrets of Heaven and Earth." And so the women kept holy the days of their bleeding, and they grew wise in the ways of the plants, the ways of the animals, and the ways of Heaven and Earth.
And so it was for many, many turns of the Earth around the Sun. Until the change. No one really knows where it started. Like a small fire, at first it seemed harmless. The women were wise and they thought no harm could come to them. Were they not the very Earth herself? To harm a woman, was it not the same as harming the Mother? And who would be so foolish as to harm their own Mother? To harm the source of nourishment and comfort and strength?
Yet there were those who were so foolish. Deluded, they grew arrogant, and began to tell the story of creation in a strange way. They began to believe that a man gave birth to the Earth and to humans! They said that man was the source of all nourishment and wisdom. They said that man was the image of God, and that God was jealous, and angry, that God demanded pain and blood and despised the simple pleasures of the body, of the earth. They said that God lived above, not within the earth, that God lived in heaven and was above all life. They said that men were above all life, too. That man had dominion over all of life, over all of the Earth herself, to do with as he pleased.
Oh, how silly their stories were. Surely no one could believe such stories! Surely everyone could see clearly that woman was the source of life, and nourishment. Surely it was clear that the women's blood was the life of the Earth and the life of the people. And that the pleasure of the body was holy, was sacred, was good. That the Earth was alive, was our true Mother, and must be respected. That we are part of Her, dependent on Her for our very breath.
But, like a small fire left alone when the wind is blowing, the strange stories of God, of man as creator, grew and multiplied. The small fire of deceit rapidly became a raging storm, a storm that threatened all life. For the men began to say that the blood of women was bad, that women's moon time blood was dirty, unclean, even dangerous. They began to say that women themselves were dirty and dangerous. They began to say that the Earth was dirty and dangerous. They began to think of themselves as apart from the Earth, as separate from the Earth, as better than the Earth. They began to think of themselves as apart from women, as superior to women, as the master of women.
The women did their best to tend to the holy fires. The women did their best to keep the days of their bleeding sacred. The women did their best to teach their daughters how to learn from the plants and the animals and the Earth. And the women did their best to be true to the mysteries of the moon-time and the wisdom of the Great Mother.
But the men were lost. Without the wisdom of the women, alone and apart, the men forgot the ways of peace. They forgot that the Earth was their Mother. They forgot that all women were sacred. And they began to fight. At first they fought only among themselves. But soon the sickness spread and the men began to fight the women. They began to torture the women. They began to kill the women. They bound women's feet for this pain gave men pleasure.
They burned women at the stake for how dare any woman pretend to know the healing ways of the plants. They stoned women to death for it frightened them to see even the smallest bit of her holy flesh. They cut out the pleasure parts from between her legs for here was a power that seemed uncontrollable. And they told her, again and again, until she began to believe it was true, that she was not sacred, that she was not made in the image of God.
They men told each other that women were inferior, that the animals were inferior, and that the plants were inferior. Soon, puffed up with false pride, the men began to devise ways to use the women and the animals and the plants without respect for their power, without respect for their sacredness. The men began to believe that their view of the world was the only view of the world.
From one side of the Earth to the other, they abused the women and the plants and the animals. They used them without regard and kept them locked away. They ignored the cries of pain. They came to believe that women and plants and animals actually enjoyed being hurt. They confused some women so terribly that these women began to believe that they actually were dirty and in need of punishment. They tortured so many women that the wisdom of the women seemed to be the lie, and the lies of the men took on the trappings of truth.
But the Great Mother lives in every woman. In every place and every time, the Great Mother shows herself in the form of every living woman. "Eat me." she whispers in the dreams of the woman. And the woman throws off the bed covers and walks barefoot into the moonlit night. She is yearning. She feels a deep stirring in her belly. She looks at the moon and she fancies that she hears the moon speaking to her. "You are sacred. You are the beginning and the end of all existence. I am you and you are me. Keep sacred the days of your bleeding and I will share with you the wisdom of the plants and the animals and the very Earth."
Can she believe it is true? Dare she believe the truth of the words she seems to hear? All her life she has been told that she is not pretty enough, nor smart enough, not strong enough. Everything seems to tell her that she is too round, too emotional, too sensitive. And not sacred, in fact, the complete opposite of sacred. All the days of her life she has heard the stories of the wonders of man, the creator. She has heard it so often that it has the sound of truth: God is a man. God is all powerful, so men are all powerful (and women are weak). God is clean, so men are clean (and women are dirty). God is pure, so men are pure (and women are filth). God never bleeds from between his legs and men never bleed from between their legs (so the flowing blood of women is a sickness, a curse, a punishment). How can she believe that her blood is sacred? How can she allow herself to feel pleasure, to name it good, to name it holy? How can she dare to believe that she is the Goddess?
Yes, the Goddess! The Goddess who is alive in every woman, in every place, in every time. The Goddess who whispers in our dreams. The Goddess who smiles in our lives. The Goddess who stirs the blood in our bellies. The Goddess who knows that every woman is wise and powerful and sacred. The Goddess who calls to us: "Keep the days of your bleeding sacred. Remember that your blood is the blood of life, the blood of peace. Feed me your blood, your moon-time blood, oh my daughter, my lover. Feed me, for I hunger and I thirst for you.
"Return to me. Return to yourself. Remember yourself. Remember me. I am the Great Mother. I am the Goddess. I am the Wise Woman. Listen to my words. Listen to my song. I am in you, thus I can never be lost. My story is your story. And it is the true story of birth and life and death. Eat me. Feed me. You are woman and so am I. Through me, you exist; through you, I exist. We are the ones who create. We are the ones who nourish. We are the ones who open the gates between the worlds. We are the ones who must reclaim ourselves, who must reweave ourselves.
"Oh sister, dear sister, the threads are thin, the song is faint. Tell me it is not too late. Tell me that you hear me. Tell me that you believe me. Tell me that the Goddess has returned. Tell me you are listening to the plants and the animals and your own deep knowing. Tell me you are looking past the slick, simple lies and into the messy, complex truth. Tell me that you feel the red blood stirring in your belly.
"Tell me it is not too late. Tell me the sisters are awakening. Tell me the moonlodge is rebuilt. Tell me that the words of White Buffalo Calf Woman were not in vain. Tell me that Kwan Yin's heart is not breaking. Tell me that Venus is safe. Tell me that Artemis roams free in the woods. Tell me that Lilith is welcome at your table. Tell me that you remember that pleasure is holy to me. Tell me that you refuse to believe that you delight in pain.
"Tell me that you feel me reaching out to you from the deep core of your being, from time out of mind. Tell me that you feel me waking up inside you, waking you up to your beauty and your power. Tell me that you are reclaiming your truth and turning a deaf ear to the lies. Tell me that you remember that you are the Goddess. Tell me that you remember that you and I are the same. Tell me you keep sacred the days of your bleeding. Tell me you honor your crones.
"I have been with you since the beginning, and I will be with you at the end. I am part of you and you are part of me. Allow me to love you. Allow me to honor you. Allow me to return."
***************
There you have it folks, a beautiful short story. You'll note that Lilith.... was not only the supposed first wife of Adam who 'divorced' him as per his sexual ineptitude and the fact that he didn't like the idea of her being an equal to him (she was made from dust too). She was also a Goddess in other mythology, and I think that it is that Goddess which the story speaks of....but I could be wrong...there is a whole new movement to bring the other Lilith to the table. You never really know. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/18/2006 12:58:26 AM | Holey geese! (by which I do mean geese with holes in them - why? no reason...)
Lady_Fair, that's a long post! I don't think I've even done that! So, I haven't read it yet, but I will.
First, though:
Maybe my brain is tired, but I'm not sure I used any color other then Green to identify witches...
My comment was in response to Thorp's post. "Green" Witchcraft makes plenty of sense, in that it focuses on the earth and growing things, so calling it green is applicable to describe that aspect of the Craft, just like using the term "green living" works for those who choose environmentally friendly ways of life. It's more a descriptor than anything.
Longte, like the poem. I'd probably have to hear it recited, since I can't seem to get the meter in my head, but I like the imagery and lyric qualities.
The intellectuals of the time, the ancient mythmakers layered their theology over pagan belief and ritual.
Follow the trail of HIStory back and its beginning is where the trail of HERstory ended.
I liked Kabiosile's response to this, but I just gotta. Without getting too far into my opinions regarding feminism, I will say I have to disagree. Yes, there have been a lot of issues raised in the cultural slaughter of old religions, and yes, much of Paganism has been incorporated into the newer styles of belief, even during the ages of conquest when it was easier to assimilate the unbeliever than to attempt to destroy him. Stand by, there's really more, but it fits better below.
While I do agree that modern christian culture frowns on females being in positions of power...
I really don't get this. To a degree it does seem this way, but I don't believe that this is the issue that lies at the heart of things. Bear with me, I don't want to get into sociopolitical gender wars, so this might be confusing. To put it simply, women have, for the majority of the last two thousand years, had "lesser," "subservient" roles to play in society. I believe this has changed a great deal, and that's a good thing. I really don't believe that Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) has ever been predicated on this, however. Nor do I believe that modern Christian culture has any great issue with women in positions of authority. It's simply counter to established tradition, and people tend to balk at changes in their patterns of behaviour. Thusly:
They hate you because they were told to hate you, just like a guy from a redneck town in the middle of nowhere who has never met a black man might say he don't like em.
With regard to this and the music issue that were brought up, they are very good points. The thing is that people don't think. They really don't. It's a matter of being active, and people just don't do that, unless they have to. Rather, they react, and they do so using patterns that they are taught throughout their young lives. You live in a society wherein blacks or women or witches are marginalised or outright hated, it doesn't matter if you've never met or encountered any. It only matters that your initial reaction will be to distrust and fear what you've always been given to understand was unworthy of trust or acceptance. Basic human nature, I'm afraid.
More likely they hear the word witch and say one of two things. Trick or Treat. Or hell and damnation ... Get my drift?
Precisely.
ah... i too like your examples but what I was refering to was studies by anthropologists and psychologists throught the 60's and 70's that I read and there are simple little tests you can do at home.
I've looked into this one, as well, and I think the theory is sound, but they did fail to take into account one major factor. The societies they were working with and in which they performed the tests were all literate societies. One interesting function of a preliterate society is that they have a tendency to be more specific and very detailed in their remembrances of situations and narratives. Many African (and other) tribal societies use oral tradition to pass on their tribal histories, their legends, and the important factors in their beliefs. Many of these societies actually have folks who are trained to use their memories specifically for the recording of the oral traditions of their people, and these are passed on literally word-for-word for generations. The "telephone game" phenomenon I believe is being referenced here is certainly a true and accurate account of what can happen when people are not paying full attention to the specifics of what is being related, or do not have the mental equipment to make full use of their memory when passing on detailed information. The capacity for this really does decrease in literate societies, since we tend not to think in specifics, considering that we may feel that we can always reference a definite record repeatedly. Additionally, we tend, even as we read to absorb for the most part, just the "gist" of the text, rather than the specifics. I seriously doubt that anyone who reads this would be able to recite the entirety of it exactly two days from now. There are tribes, however, and individuals in those tribes, whose oral traditions and capacity for them are so strong that, had this been a spoken diatribe, they would actually be able to recite word-for-word what has been said, to include inflection and body language (assuming the original address were presented in person). It's all about where we're coming from.
As for rock paintings, runes, hieroglyphs, other sorts of glyphs, tarot even, these are all ways of recording generalities, such that those who interpret them can focus on the specifics without having to remember the entirety of a text. Similar to having notes for a speech, rather than writing down and later reading aloud to an audience the entire speech, these "idea markers" function as mnemonic "shorthand" for those who need to remember great deals of information and don't have the time to memorise entire tracts. For instance, Norse skalds generally would have taken years learning the lays and legends that they would recite for their chieftains, and a great many of them would vary somewhat in particulars from clan to clan, but the essence would be the same. Those same skalds, however, would have almost exact similarities in reciting the stories told by the runes. Why? They had that "shorthand," those images to "jumpstart" their memories for the specific information "coded" into the meanings of each rune. Cool, huh?
I am from the celts geneticly and i believe in some genetic memories also being present in my personal beliefs and feelings about the earth and religion...
I'm actually in the process of trying to test some of my suspicions in that regard. Good to know I'm not the only one who notices.
I am not sure there really are any more clarifications... just more beating around the bush and attempts to justify things that are not in the simple explanations like in the dictionary.
I'm not sure I quite understand how anyone has been "beating around the bush" on this subject, but I do agree that a lot of the more personal interpretations and cultural definitions have come out in supplement to the simple dictionary definitions. The trouble I see with those definitions in dictionaries is that they are simple; they don't go into connotations or inflection, they don't cover a lot of the extra ground that a given word can encompass. One reason for this is that the dictionary is usually updated with the thought firmly in place that language does evolve, and the dictionary would have to be entirely researched and rehashed on a prohibitively regular basis to include all the myriad ways one could express oneself using even half the words we have in the English language. Another reason would be that the dictionary is written from a cultural perspective for the use of the "masses" who don't all have the same experience of the concepts being defined. Thus, you wind up with reductively simple definitions on which the majority of a given population can agree, utilising (guess what?) a reference to cover specifics. Amazing, isn't it, how it all tends to coalesce and intertwine into a whole?
As for essays and the beautiful simplicity of a question asked and answered, that's all well and good if one is just in the mood for a simple answer to a simple question. However, in the complex realm of interpersonal interactions and understandings, it is many times necessary to not only present the point of view, supporting arguments and proofs and to go into a somewhat lengthy explanation of things, particularly if one wants to get one's point across.
THE GODDESS IS ALIVE IN EVERY WOMAN
The True Story of How She Came to Be, How She Disappeared, and How She Returned
Well, I said I'd read it, and I did. And, I'm crying inside. Don't know how "true" a story it is, particularly with the feminist overtones (seriously, I don't want to get into that, but it's there), but it is a good story, nonetheless. Thanks, Lady_Fair. Groovy stuff. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/18/2006 4:26:04 AM | Just a little add on to what Feral had to say.
With the tests done on story telling changing with each teller, one of the things I learned when my son was in rehab (his short term memory was damaged). It takes the repetition of at least 5 times for something to become part of the long term memory.
Story tellers for the Tribes told these same storys (their history) repeatly, untill all had it embedded in long term memory. Less chance for errors or changes when passed on to the next group of youth.
With the tests, subjects are given something to relay....one time...no long term memory to it...change occurs. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/18/2006 6:32:50 AM | See why they fear the witch?
The witch is the Goddess who connects us to the earth.
The ritual and chant meant to awaken the goddess within each of us...it is our mother nature that we must nurture...so it became necessary to remove the Goddess from the consciousness to disconnect man from his nature.
Maybe I should have offered a more detailed explanation. The brevity of the message was confusing.
I offer that it can be shown 'witches' were identified first by the Christians within the context of their collective mythology/religion. They invented the witch and satan the devil, both are the direct result of a vacuum caused by the lack of female 'characterizations', female role models and associations within that patriarchal story line.
Within the Bible the woman is portrayed as an abomination, a whore and generally the cause for the fall of mankind. There really are few kind words for the woman within the context of this story and this becomes glaringly obvious using comparative mythology and religion.
Looking back over HIStory we see a conspiracy taking place. Whether is was a conscious one or the result simply of one perspective showing dominance is an ongoing debate.
We see the Temple Priests...the Yahweh cult dominating the Elohim.
It is Cain vs. Abel...it is the allegorical farmer no longer allowing the gypsy herder brother a safe passage. He kills him because he could not please his father. He is angry and selfish and did not like gardening. His pride and ego conspired with his knowledge.
Killing the Goddess consciousness of man was necessary in order to take dominion over the elemental earth. The riches born from the womb of the earth are what makes all men rich, intellect only recognizes where the treasures are hidden. The right of dominion was granted in scripture and was written by the intellectual patriarchal Temple Priests who wielded the Power and the Glory...nice scam...you write the deed that identifies you as the 'Chosen' landowner and this is in effect for the next 2000 years?
Is it not interesting not one woman contributed over the centuries in the writing of the Bible?
Do only men have visions?
Because the Church viewed being 'bound in matter' as a fallen state...the elemental earth was also viewed as a symbol of the 'fallen state'. It is a state of impurity that the intellect of man, the 'matter alchemist' now having domination over the earth, our Mother Nature. It is the continued raping, pillage and plunder, upsetting the balance that we allow because we are 'disconnected' from the Goddess...Gaea...the Earth.
I am suggesting unless we awaken that 'part of our consciousness', the Goddess within the collective, learning to live and develop sustain able not energy dependent city states...this civilization is doomed.
Jung saw the witch as the embodimentof the 'dark side of the anima, the female aspect of man'. The witch idenfied by the Christians is Kali to the Hindu.
It is the Yin to the Yang.
This is why the 'negative' aspects of the cycle of life and death are viewed using the symbolism of darkness, fire, heat, intiation and ritual.
The witch/goddess/kali/yin is the elemental earth.
This symbolizes in the macrocosm the everchanging evolving earth.
It is the balance that thermodynamics seeks not only in the individual but also the living entity known as the earth. And thermodynmics are the overriding laws of a hot universe ...cooling down...these are laws that identify the game of life as we are in a game we cannot win...we are in a game where we can't break even...and we are in a game that says there is no escape.
The earth too has four phases...the Greeks identified it as the four ages of man that reveal themselves today as cyclical shifts in geo-magnetic polarities. The Judaeo/Christian mythmakers took a cyclical event, which is sure to return and called it a prophecy.
The Book of revelations is not prophecy, it is the re-telling of a cyclical event in the evolution of the Earth itself.
The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse science has identified today as nuclear strong, nuclear weak, gravity and electro-magnetism. (that is my theory)
If Energy = God, would not his messengers be energetic forces used in conjunction, in concert with one another to re-create the creation. Re-sculpt the ball of clay?
Will these be the forces used to punish the insolent beligerent children who call 5000 years of recorded butchery 'civilization / evolution'?
The Goddess will probably use witchy incantations...signalling the earth to eat her young.
Namaste | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/18/2006 9:47:30 AM | witchy incantations, I love it.... So I've decided I am going to get a Master Herbalist diploma. What now is considered alternative medicine, was once considered witchcraft. Hell...it still is in a sense. Green Witch, Kitchen Witch, Cottage witch....all names for those who understand how to use nature for the purpose of healing....and how to avoid negative results.
So there you have it....
I - Lady Fair.... am a witch. Rather, aspiring witch. I don't have the diploma yet!
A quote from my dear mummy, "Do you have to call yourself a witch? Why can't you say healer, or herbalist, or even just say 'i know how to use plants'...why do you have to use a word that has acquired so much stigma?"
my response "Does it really matter what I call it? It's the same thing, regardless of stigma and stereotyping." | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/18/2006 4:33:53 PM | Lady...will that make you a Witch Doctor? Or just a Witch Master? Or maybe a Master Witch.
I can see webster ripping out his hair for definitions on those. LOL
Oh btw, loved the story. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/18/2006 5:53:23 PM | Ok so I finally had time to read that lonf story too. I liked most of it agreed with some of it and would like to comment on a few parts.
------------------"For the men began to say that the blood of women was bad, that women's moon time blood was dirty, unclean, even dangerous. They began to say that women themselves were dirty and dangerous."---------------------------------
This is something that is often misunderstood in many african systems. While I do agree that some of the desert religions hold this strange view. Most tribal cultures that do special things when a woman goes into cycle has nothing to do with thinking it is unclean or bad. For example in Santeria Woman are not allowed to play sacred drums because they menstrate. The reason for this is not because menstration is bad or a woman is dirty because of this. In fact we believe no such thing. The reason women are not allowed to play these drums is for their own safety, you see the spirits of these sacred drums are fed blood. They recieve the life force that is in the blood. Since these spirits are fed in this manner they can become "hungry" in the presence of a bleeding woman and make her hemorage. We dont tell our women to stay away from these things because we wish to hold them back or we think they are dirty. We do it because we love them and wish to protect them. There are roles in these cultures that can only be held by men. There are roles in this culture that can only be held by women. These roles are not better or worse. They are held by the intended sex because of something spiritualy important which sometimes can be as simple as symbolism and sometimes can be an issue of safety and well being. While I did agree before with the fact that in christianity there exist some groups that will never allow women to have positions of power I was not talking about culturally significant things such as I just refered to. I have seen cases of positions that can and have been held by women not be allowed for the fact that she was. I do however agree with feral not wanting to turn this into a fem vs male thread that not all cases of males holding certain positions or even women not being allowed to do certain things is based in sexist goals.
We must take the greatest of care to learn the reason for such things before we jump into putting women or our spiritual/physical/mental well being in danger. I do agree with all the problems caused by male centered thinking esp in all the cases where women are mistreated. I also agree that the view that man is over all things has caused the current condition of the planet. However when I say man it means man and woman in this case.
I do find it strange that some people take issue with a male creator figure.. I do find it equally strange that you are saying that woman is the mother and creator. I find this as disturbing as the people who only praise the male figure in a religion. Look it takes boths parts X and Y to create. Women can get together all they want and never create new life. It takes the seed the man has (Thus I think what they are metaphorically saying the creator is a man.) Woman is the mother an equally important role. Without the male figure the woman is barren like the moon. Without the woman the man has no soil to plant his seed. either way there can be nothing without its opposite. Not in this paradox of a plane of existence we live. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/18/2006 6:36:14 PM | kabiosilek
I agree that it takes the Lord and the Lady that we need both parts as a balance.
There was a line in an old sit com " All in the family" The Son-in-Law who was a very big equal rights activist got passed over for a job, a black man was picked. He yelled and screamed about the fact that they were equal in everything why pick the black man. The response was classic and something to remember.
For so long the pendulum has swung so far one way, that now it has to swing all the way to the other side, before it comes back to rest in the middle.
For so long women have been made to feel less important, due to theological interpretation of the Bible, that now the pendulum is swinging the other way...Balance will come | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 8:19:04 AM | I do find it strange that some people take issue with a male creator figure.. I do find it equally strange that you are saying that woman is the mother and creator. I find this as disturbing as the people who only praise the male figure in a religion. Look it takes boths parts X and Y to create. Women can get together all they want and never create new life. It takes the seed the man has (Thus I think what they are metaphorically saying the creator is a man.) Woman is the mother an equally important role. Without the male figure the woman is barren like the moon. Without the woman the man has no soil to plant his seed. either way there can be nothing without its opposite. Not in this paradox of a plane of existence we live.
My study of the esoteric, cosmogony has revealed to me many interesting connections that do in fact exist within our 'matrix', our 4Dimensional SpaceTime existence.
I crawled into a cave not unlike Pythagaros believing we exist between the 2 worlds, the microcosm and the macrocosm. Together with Socrates and Plato we see the patterns that extend from the inner to the outer universes.
So having shared that...I see a pattern that answers a question but responds with of course another question.
I see the constant annihilations in the sub-atomic quantum fields as life creating.
I see the many sperm trying to penetrate the ovum, finally one, rarely more than one gets through and is in itself a life creating process.
I then see the Cosmic rays of the Father Sun trying to penetrate the atmosphere of the elemental ovum we call Earth. His rays penetrating in conjuction with the elemental earth is also a life creating process.
Then I finally see the ovum, the particle of immense mass just prior to the Big Bang being also penetrated by something external to it.
That's what Pythagoras whispered to me in the cave.
And I now see a paradox ... is the creation an evolutionary process or is a selective evolution leading to a creation?
As an interesting side note...in how the cosmic Father Sun of God nourishes the elemental Mother Earth...the equatorial belt receiving the most life giving sunlight happens to be represented by the fact both Tropics are approximently 23.5 degrees from the equator. (23 degrees 26 " 22 ', to be more extact)
One Tropic North of the equator can represent the female aspect and the other the male aspect, both offering 23 degrees of light to the equation...visualize a band of light not unlike the structure of DNA encircling the globe in a weave, manifesting as two opposing wavelengths or vibrations of thought (light), symbolised by the caduceus.
Solstices and equinoxes figure too large in our existence to be ignored.
Just a thought.
Namaste
p.s.I can use numerology in an interesting manner to explain the 26' and 22". | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 8:46:16 AM | SFL - I believe it would make me just shy of a witch Doctor, I'd go with Master Witch... or High Witch? but not evil like in that movie Witches...
You can never know too much about the earth and her healing properties. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 3:00:44 PM | SFL
On what you mentioned:
As a matter of fact when I was looking for a good definition I came across a site talking about being a Christian Witch or a Pagan/Christian. But I felt if I used that in here it would have caused arguements instead of a good discussion and I would be blamed for starting a Flame thread.
I know of an author who started out christian, became pagan, and is now leaning towards being a pagan christian.
The author is Carl McColman (wrote Idiots Guide to Paganism)
http://www.carlmccolman.com
He wrote other books and upon reading his latest blog, has started a new book. About the only thing I can say about the author, he is on an ever changing spiritual journey. May his journey be well illuminated.
Queenbrunette | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 8:03:57 PM | Brunette,
I have used the term Pagan/witch on these forums before, generally it is accepted without too much fuss.
Thank you for the author, I am always looking for recommendations.
Lady,
I couldn't agree more, you should see the books I have on herbal remedies. Where do you plan on studying? I think it would make an interesting thread for you to start.
Religion/herbalism/healing? | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 8:31:30 PM | motorcyclecherry
I know a few wiccans/witches/pagans (not all call themselves witch) who like their meat very much. I too like my meat, venison in particular. I also have an affinity for nature. Harmony can be achieved in many ways, we each just find our different ways. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 8:54:53 PM | So queenbrunette,
I like the topic you just brought up. I know of many people who are both christian(catholic) and are also "Brujos(as)" as witches are called in spanish. It is so personal religion. I think that priests and organizations may try to control their masses by saying you can be in no other religion but ours. In the end however, they really hold no control we dont give them. I see no conflict or reason to flame if you want to be any mixture of any religion if it is what you truely believe to be right for you. There are few religions who even try this approach, of you can only be one religion. Most share the philosophy whatever is the most effective route for the person in question. So be a satanic, christian, zen, pagan, muslim for all I care. Whatever pleases your spirit and leads you to a healthy happy life and a place where you can find refuge from the trials of life. MORE POWER TO YOU!!!!
What I can say from a traditionalist point of view. One must be careful to seperate what is good for the self and what is good for the culture around the systems in which you draw. What I mean by this is that we must also take into account the overall effect we may have on the culture of what it is we draw our inspiration from. For example many people in the caribean practice Santeria from the yoruba people as well as Palo from the the bantu people and may even still be catholics. The ones who are most serious about this keep the traditions seperate but are memebers and followers or even priests in some cases of them all. I have heard someone say you cannot swim in two waters at the same time. If we mix everything together we will have a little of everything but, alot of nothing. So what I am saying that taking on more than one religion is an even larger responsability if you wish to be very serious about it. If you are not going to be very serious about it it is best to keep it to yourself not for fear of what others have to say for this dont matter. For respect of the tradition/culture that this tradition stems from. This is not to say that things should not change or mix. I just think that one should fully have an understanding of something before they decide to mix in this or cut that. It could be detrimental. | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 9:07:27 PM | SFL
Part of what you posted "YET again....a few years back while walking with the dogs we came across the bodys of 10 Deer heaped one on top of the other with only the Hind quarters gone."
I find that as a total waste. My family eat all the meat off of the deer. Some of it is ground up into burger, but mix it with some beef and you have some fairly good burgers for the grill.
Well, my family eat all the meat but the tongue.
I have even found information printed for tanning hides. One tribe of Native Americans used the brains of the deer/elk to tan the hide. The process is labor intensive, but more environmently friendly than the modern methods which uses toxic chemicals.
I have even read some info on how pamican is made (probably using the wrong word here), where buffalo meat, fat and dried berries were ground together and dried. I do not have the actual directions on how to make that stuff, but dried meat strips (venison jerky) do keep for a long time after being cured in a salt solution before drying.
Actually, I just had a thought. Those stacked up deer may have been poached. Hunting regulations usually require that the hunter put all the meat to use. Was a way to deter Trophy hunters from just taking the head and hide for mounting perposes. The next time you happen to see something like that, report it.
Well, enough on the dead pile of deer.
Be well | |
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| What is a witch?
Posted: 1/19/2006 9:59:50 PM | Wow another interesting topic the dead deer thing.
Reason why this is of interest to me is that animal sacrifice is a part of many african as well as other ancient forms of tribal witch craft. The treatment of the animals before there death and the way the corpse is either disguarded or eaten seems to be a BIG issue to many people. Let me shed some light on this practice so that it can be better understood. I first must say I dont think the deers you found were part of a ritual. Sounds like poachers as queen implied.
In many of the afro caribean religions there exists the need for many reasons (but none that are trivial) for the sacrifice of an animal or animals depending on the situation. Most of these cases are for the feeding of sacred objects. In these cases the meat is Almost always shared with the public who attend the ceremony. It is a form of communion no different than what the christians do at mass. The gods are fed the life force in the blood. It has nothing to do with the death of the animal but, everything to do with transfering Ache (vital life force) from the animals blood to the object. The death of the animal is just an effect of that transfer process. Its body is then shared to strengthen the community that shares in the feast. This one people tend to not have a problem with.
Another reason someone would sacrifce an animal was in the case of someone needing a cleansing type of ritual. The cause for this need can be many from sickness to witchcraft inflicted on the person or the need to cleans a spirit that was not beneficial to the person. Can be a wide variety of serious things. The point I am making here is people dont just slay these animals for no good reason. There are very sound reasons when this is done and the shedding of blood is not taken lightly. There is also no morbid facination with the death of the animal. In the first case it is about the transfer of life energy. In this case of cleansing type rituals the focus is on removing something viewed as non-beneficial so the animal is passed over the person in some form or another and through this ceremony the negative energy is taken from the person to the animal the animal is then treated in a certain way to trap these energies so that they can not escape. This type of animal is NEVER consumed and must be disguarded in the prescribed manner in which the spirit that is aiding the person dictates. This is the time where people outside of this tradition may come in contact with sacrificial animals because the other ones are promptly eaten. It is obvious why after I have explained this to you that people do not eat the animals that have been through a cleansing ritual. It would be the same as removing cancer from a patient to make him eat it after the surgery. So if you do happen upon a dead chicken or something of that nature wraped in a ceremonial way. Leave it where it lay nature will take care of this for, the spirits that rule the area where it was droped made a promise to handle the problem in this way. know that the suffering of the animal was minimal (of short duration) the death of these animals and I have seen countless such ceremonies is done swiftly and far more humane than is done in the meat packing/slaughter houses of the USA. That package of meat you pick up in the store was shot with chemicals, caged, had it beak cut off, droped into a big tub of water and when they stick their heads up to not drown they are decapitated. Far more dramatic in most cases than what happens even though the end result is the same. I know for some people who are animal rights activists this sounds like a horror story but, you have to understand that we are talking about ancient tribal practices not some companies get rich quick scheme. While i do agree with you greatly that farming practices in america esp need to be looked at debated and fixed. The practices of ancient cultures that deal with animal sacrifice should not only be tolerated but, allowed to continue without interference. | |
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