|
|
|
|
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/4/2006 11:23:31 PM | | My whole life revolvels arround music!!!! I cant live a day without it BUT that dose not mean that MY LIFE is lived through music !!! oh wait YES it is !!!!!!!! lol | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 1:17:23 AM |
Oh, I wouldn't place as much blame on lyrics as "subliminal" messages in "music" changing peoples moral compass. It's not the "music", the "music" is just a manifestation of pop culture, ......that's the worm in the apple, "music" is part of the apple.
If the apple is rotten, blame the worm.
Late, I'm not sure how to adapt your metaphor to my point so I won't try. Agreed, "art imitates life". Still, it's also very true that "life imitates art".
As a blatant example, some years ago a number of women were attacked and sexually assaulted in Central Park, New York by a gang of young thugs who chanted the "lyrics" to a rap song and imitated the action in the video for that song by pouring beer on their helpless victims. Media darling Eminem has made a killing from "songs" about raping his mother and worse things. A sample line: "If you see my dad, tell him I slit his throat in a dream I had". There are numerous other examples that are too sick to even print here. That's what our kids are getting a steady diet of. Some may say, it's only a song. Sure it is -- but songs do have an impact on people, especially when they are young and impressionable. There's a great example of a talented person misusing his talents. For what? The almighty dollar, of course! Interestingly, Eminem won't let his own kids listen to that stuff. He doesn't mind YOUR kids listening to it though -- while he laughs ("sneers" is probably a more accurate way to describe it) all the way to the bank.
The media moguls who promote this kind of thing know that sex and violence sell so they happily feed it to us. If anyone questions their integrity in this matter, they insist that "it's only entertainment" or "it's only music" and doesn't really affect the way anyone behaves. Meanwhile, they spend millions, probably billions, every year on "jingles" and other entertaining advertisements. Why? To affect the buying behaviour of their target audience. They can't have it both ways. There's no doubt in my mind -- and should be none in theirs, transparent rationalizations notwithstanding -- that these things do affect people. I believe that artists have a responsibility to consider the impact that their art makes upon people and upon society in general. It shouldn't be all about the money; artistic and moral integrity is more important and valuable than money.
Thanks for the info about the difference in musical formats, harmonics, etc. Interesting stuff. Though I've been a professional musician for many years, I'm not nearly as informed about the more esoteric aspects of sound, etc, as I'd like to be. Yes, analog sound is so much warmer. I've heard analog and digital recordings of the same song and what a difference! Same with live music -- I've heard music that blew me away in live performance but wasn't nearly so impressive on recorded materials. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 1:31:14 AM | I just think people have to be responsible for themselves and their behavior. It's like an alcoholic blaming liquor stores and bars for the problem. If we don't have any "common sense" and self-control, then, yeah, we'll probably end up in some kind of major trouble.
I think there's a "type" of music for everyone, and anyone who uses any kind of music as an excuse for committing a crime or a certain type of behavior has something "very wrong", and did before they ever listened to whatever music they're blaming..... Hmmmmm... I better not think so hard this time of night~~~ | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 2:40:10 AM | Livewire, I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should be able to "use any kind of music as an excuse". If you are assuming that I don't believe people have to be responsible for their own behaviour, I have no idea where you got that idea. Certainly they do and that was the entire point of my post. Artists who have the power to be very influential in society are among those who should take responsibility for their behaviour -- and for the effect they may have on the behaviour of others.
Like it or not, popular entertainers DO influence people. Avril Lavigne recently wore a certain shirt to a concert and within a week the store that sold these shirts was deluged with orders for those shirts. Now, you may say, well, that's only a shirt and not important. Do you think that such persons do not also have the power, by virtue of their popularity AND their artistic work, to influence people in other ways that ARE important? Did the songs and public statements of Bob Dylan, Joan Baez and others not influence or have any impact on the behaviour of protesters in the 60s? Do national anthems not inspire patriotism and help to motivate people, particularly in times of war? Have religious hymns, "Negro spirituals" and the like had no effect on people throughout the ages? Does a person like Bono of the band "U2" not influence people today because of the popularity he gained through his music AND often by the content of the music itself? How can you wax so poetically about the influence of music in your own life and then deny its power to make a difference in society? Do you really believe that if impressionable young people constantly hear musical lyrics that glorify rape and murder, for instance, that it will have no effect upon them, particularly, as you note, upon those who for whatever reason were a little "unbalanced" to begin with? Do you not think that all of this implies that artists should take some responsibility for what they present in their art? | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 30 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 2:50:05 AM |
As a blatant example, some years ago a number of women were attacked and sexually assaulted in Central Park, New York by a gang of young thugs who chanted the "lyrics" to a rap song and imitated the action in the video for that song by pouring beer on their helpless victims. Media darling Eminem has made a killing from "songs" about raping his mother and worse things.
= pop culture, not music, but a culture that glorifies violence via media.
I think maybe you and I have different criteria for what constitutes art, music, and pop culture.
Do you really believe that if impressionable young people constantly hear musical lyrics that glorify rape and murder, for instance, that it will have no effect upon them, particularly, as you note, upon those who for whatever reason were a little "unbalanced" to begin with?
No, I don't believe this is consistant with what is known of human behaviour, or DSM-IV criteria regarding sociopaths, etc.
People have tried through civil litigation to make a case for this, nobody's convinced a court yet. Probably due to the fact that any knowlegable psychologist could poke holes in such an argument. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 3:03:22 AM | Late is right.
Lawyers use this excuse as a last-ditch effort.
If that were really the case,artists like Ozzy,Eminen,and Marilyn Manson would no longer tour or make music. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 4:06:09 AM | | My friends ... it does not logically follow from the fact that lawyers and/or psychologists can poke holes through pretty much any argument that has ever been made in any court of law or elsewhere that some of their clients are not actually guilty as charged. | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 33 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 4:22:17 AM | it does not logically follow from the fact that lawyers and/or psychologists can poke holes through pretty much any argument that has ever been made in any court of law or elsewhere that some of their clients are not actually guilty as charged.
This wasn't what was said.
What WAS said, is that the basic idea you are trying to put across isn't taken seriously by anybody in behavioral sciences, re: DSM-IV et al.
If you want to rant about those using pop culture to further an agenda that's harming "culture", look no further than Madison Ave = the head of the worm. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 4:35:42 AM | If you want to rant about those using pop culture to further an agenda that's harming "culture", look no further than Madison Ave = the head of the worm.
Late ... if you took the time to read my "rant", you would see that I did recognize "the head of the worm" and that I did take a well aimed shot at it. I think that I pretty much blew that head right off, logically and morally speaking.
The media moguls who promote this kind of thing know that sex and violence sell so they happily feed it to us. If anyone questions their integrity in this matter, they insist that "it's only entertainment" or "it's only music" and doesn't really affect the way anyone behaves. Meanwhile, they spend millions, probably billions, every year on "jingles" and other entertaining advertisements. Why? To affect the buying behaviour of their target audience. They can't have it both ways. There's no doubt in my mind -- and should be none in theirs, transparent rationalizations notwithstanding -- that these things do affect people.
Now, the question is: should we eliminate the head of the worm and leave the rest of it in the apple? Should we really "look no further" than the head? Shall we absolve artists of all responsibility because they are helpless pawns of the big bucks that Madison Avenue offers? Are they whores or artists? | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 35 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 4:38:42 AM | Shall we absolve artists of all responsibility because they are helpless pawns of the big bucks that Madison Avenue offers?
I think you use the term "artist" too loosely.
Are they whores or artists?
Most likely: "hacks".
Guess why a market exists for this drivel? (see: worm)
As for lyrical content outside of the "culture of violence":
DO you really think guys named "Joe" shot their "ol' lady", because it happened in a song covered and popularized by the Byrds and Hendrix, or that some "ladies" were shot "down by a river" because of Neil Young?
Music/Art/Culture is the "apple". | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 5:42:48 AM | Late ... in answer to your question, perhaps some guys named Joe or Jim or whatever HAVE shot their old ladies down by a river or elsewhere and could claim that, in their own twisted minds at least, it was those songs that inspired them to take that fateful step. Neither you nor I would give much credence to their claim if they did. Be that as it may, I offer what I consider to be an important distinction between those songs and much of what passes for musical and lyrical artistry these days. Neither Jimi nor Neil nor any of the Byrds suggested that shooting your old lady was a good thing to do. They told a story of something that did happen or might have happened. Today, many "artists" and the Madison Avenue types who sponsor their "art" have taken things to an entirely different level. All too often in popular art and culture of various forms -- not only music -- murder, rape and other despicable things are not only portrayed, they are glorified and celebrated.
So -- as late as it is where I live -- how about coming straight out and saying what you mean instead of speaking to me in metaphors, parables and riddles? If I've missed something in your "worm and apple" metaphor, please "enLaten" me.
Are you saying that we -- the people, the masses, whatever you want to call us -- are the ones who bite into the "apple" that is music/art/culture? Are you saying that musicians are just "giving the people what they want to hear"? If so, doesn't it work both ways? Aren't the people hearing what the musicians have to give as well? | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 37 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/5/2006 8:02:19 PM |
Neither Jimi nor Neil nor any of the Byrds suggested that shooting your old lady was a good thing to do. They told a story of something that did happen or might have happened.
"....I shot a man in Reno... just to watch him die"
Are you saying that we -- the people, the masses, whatever you want to call us -- are the ones who bite into the "apple" that is music/art/culture?
The people are also "of the apple", some of the people feed the worm, blame them for the shitty state of the arts, not musicians. A lack of critical thinking and indoctrination into pop culture consumerism is the key.
Are you saying that musicians are just "giving the people what they want to hear"?
Nonsense, most of the "big" demographic don't have a clue, they want what media tells them to want. Musicians?
Musicians don't make loops on computers and grunt obsceneties into a mic, hacks do ... welcome to the concept of mediocre. Crap is easy to make, and even easier to sell, and guess what, .....most people don't have a clue.
Ever heard of Clear Channel?
-- murder, rape and other despicable things are not only portrayed, they are glorified and celebrated.
Gee, I wonder if it's musicians doing this, say.... in a jazz trio, or a bluegrass band, or....... Afro-Cuban orchestra.....
Hmmmm.... I wonder if the source of the "culture of violence" you want to pin blame on, has it's root causality in the crime problems in certain parts of the world, y'know, ......certain urban centers on certain continents, with particular socio-economic problems that have been seen to lead to problems with violent crime?
We can agree to disagree, we seem to have a different criteria of definition for a lot of the terms of reference here.
what passes for musical and lyrical artistry these days.
I can see we're on different pages, ....especially the definitions of "musical", "artistry", ..............and "responsibility".
The crap exists not because of musicians, but because musicians don't run the industry.
........"Sales" does.
Do you really think the people you're talking about could compete in a fourth grade music recital?
What you are describing is a symptom, ....not a root causality. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 12:48:29 AM | late's last post is amongst the best I've read on POF the last eleven months.
It also saddens me the way the words "art" and "artist" get thrown around so loosely. Anyone who has the marketing skills, -- or rather who has the luck, money and/or savvy to hire the "right" marketing people, -- is deemed an artist simply because they've been thrust into the public eye or ear. Do those people then have a responsibility to create uplifting music, or at least music that doesn't degrade or abuse the human spirit? It's ironical, no?-- What degrades the human spirit is not the numbing "message" of their lyrics, but the desert of any soulful or talent-laden sounds of the supposed "music" itself. THAT'S the crime. Much as I despise pop culture, I don't despise the opportunists who profit from it as much as I do the artistically lazy, naive, and misguided consumers who applaud it.
"It's the slave who makes the master". -- Irving Layton
(As an aside, musicman said earlier that he "listens to music to change [his] mood." That's cool, but I listen to music to deepen my mood.) | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 1:04:53 AM | | By the way, I like Eminem, Marilyn Manson and Ozzie.... I guess I actually like a little bit of almost everything. It all says something to me, in one way or another. Opera is a tough one though.. I lose interest very quickly~~ | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 1:52:00 AM |
"Neither Jimi nor Neil nor any of the Byrds suggested that shooting your old lady was a good thing to do. They told a story of something that did happen or might have happened."
"....I shot a man in Reno... just to watch him die"
and the very next line is: "when I hear that lonesome whistle, I hang my head and cry."
My point remains. Johnny wasn't suggesting that it is a good thing to shoot people just to watch them die. He actually felt some remorse about it. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 3:02:54 AM | "-- murder, rape and other despicable things are not only portrayed, they are glorified and celebrated."
Gee, I wonder if it's musicians doing this, say.... in a jazz trio, or a bluegrass band, or....... Afro-Cuban orchestra.....
What your point is here I can't imagine. Did I say anything about jazz trios or bluegrass bands doing such things?
The people are also "of the apple", some of the people feed the worm, blame them for the shitty state of the arts, not musicians....
The crap exists not because of musicians, but because musicians don't run the industry.
........"Sales" does.
Re "artists": Agreed, people who make this kind of music may be referred to as "hacks". Nevertheless, some of them do have talent. Take Eminem, for instance. I'm no rap music fan. In fact, I often call it "crap music" ... no melody, no real vocal talent and often little musical talent, all show and posture, words that you can't even decipher half the time anyway and that all too often are nothing but foulmouthed, childish and often malicious garbage.
There is the occasional rap song that I can at least stand though -- for instance, Eminem's "it's the music, it's the moment..." Eminem is very clever in the way he puts his words together. I'll give him credit for that. For the most part however the messages he sends out are sick and disgusting. The story I read is that when he first started out, he was delivering pizzas for a living and recording rap music with lyrics about love and brotherhood. But noone gave a da*n. It wasn't selling. He started writing the kind of vile crap that he is now famous for. A fellow rapper was shocked at the change and objected to it. Eminem said "do you think I want to deliver pizzas for the rest of my life?"
The "Madison Avenue types" loved the new Eminem apparently and he has made a fortune sneering at all of us ever since. I agree, this stuff has been foisted upon us by greedy and conscienceless music industry types who discovered a market for it and have exploited and milked it for all it is worth ever since. Sure, blame the industry, blame the stupid consumers that buy this crap, I shake my head at all of them -- but the musicians who participate in it have to take their own share of the blame too. I suppose that if it wasn't Eminem, it would have been somebody else doing it -- for the money generated by the sales of course. A lot of the Nazis adopted a similar defence for their actions... "I was only following orders (like musicians filling orders)... if I had refused, they might have shot me -- certainly I would have lost my job, at least -- and someone else would have killed those Jews anyway." I expect someone's going to blast away at me now ... am I comparing musicians to Nazis, bla, bla, bla ... the point is that it's a moral question. Each person who participates in a chain of wrong and irresponsible behaviour must accept his own share of the responsibility.
What you are describing is a symptom, ....not a root causality.
It may be a symptom but it's also part of the problem. Do you really believe that the constant repetition of vile and violent messages that are rapped into people's heads, particularly the young and impressionable, isn't contributing to the violence prevalent in society today and acting as part of a vicious cycle?
If so, the scientific debate re the effects upon people of violence, etc, in the popular media is basically over and it doesn't support your position. The overwhelming majority of studies -- that were not sponsored by the media industry itself for obvious selfserving reasons -- point to a direct correlation between extensive exposure to violent material and subsequent violent behaviour or "acting out". According to the American Psychological Association, "male youth who view sexualized depictions of rape in television or in film are more likely to display callousness toward female victims of violence, especially rape... The musical "diet" that our youth have been getting for some time is often no better and can be expected to have similar effects -- as was already demonstrated in a previous post about the Central Park sexual assaults perpetrated by rap chanting thugs.
Is music THE problem or the root cause of it all? I never suggested that it was. I made no claim to be attacking "root causalities". My position since the original post has been that musicians have a responsibility to use the "power" of music wisely and well. | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 42 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 9:56:01 AM | My position since the original post has been that musicians have a responsibility to use the "power" of music wisely and well.
Sorry, this still doesn't add up, the kind of thing you're talking about doesn't "come from" musicians. It's a product of a "culture of violence", propagated by corporate parasites.
The "power" to influence is no different from film, print media, video games, or even politics, and does not have as it's point of origin; music, but popular media and those who cause it to exist in the forms that it does..
Perhaps you should blame the "great unwashed" demographic group that feeds at the trough, after all, without the sheep, their shepards would have much thinner wallets, and no flock to exploit. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 11:09:27 AM | AandS...maybe I can clear this up for you in very simple terms....the young thugs/punks/parasites that sell their wares over the airwaves and through records sales are NOT musicians in any shape or form. They are pop cultures newest teen thrill. A musician does not lower his art or himself "for the money". A musician lives, eats, sleeps and dreams music. A musician has little use for sequencers, loops, (abhores drum machines), thinks karaoke is the spawn of the devil and would never ever insult his fellow musicians by referring to anyone in pop culture as an artist or musician.!
The power of music is immense and ubiquitous. The quality is not! | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 12:43:28 PM | | Hello, i too feel that many people are not totally aware of the impact music has on a person .. it has the ability to move you to an different level .. it enpowers you .. it can provoke you . it can and do instill in one a sense of peace .or dread .. .it most certainly .. can refresh your memories of lost times and people in our lives .. it is one of the most expressive medium that mankind had as an tool to convey feeling in an postive or negative manner .. that is other then .. LOVE....... BUT then tooo at times music can tell a person of your love for them so much better then any words we may attempt to use to tell them .... | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 45 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 12:55:08 PM | Hello, i too feel that many people are not totally aware of the impact music has on a person
Or:
Movies
Books
Food
Cars
Mildew
Sunsets/sunrises.
The strongest memory trigger in human beings is in fact: smell.
The "impact" of sensory triggers is in the eye (or ear, or nose) of the beholder. They are the source of the "association". | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 1:22:37 PM |
The "power" to influence is no different from film, print media, video games, or even politics, and does not have as it's point of origin; music, but popular media and those who cause it to exist in the forms that it does..
Perhaps you should blame the "great unwashed" demographic group that feeds at the trough, after all, without the sheep, their shepards would have much thinner wallets, and no flock to exploit.
Did I ever once state that musicians are the only ones with the power to influence? Nevertheless this is a thread about music. Musicians are just part of the whole situation of course. I would be no less critical of persons involved in the other sick aspects of pop culture and "entertainment". Neither have I been any less critical of the "popular media and those who cause it to exist in the forms that it does". As for blaming the "great unwashed", it should be pretty clear that I do acknowledge their part in it. I'm suggesting that responsible artists should help to clean the "great unwashed" rather than to create further dirt and mud for them to wallow in simply because that's what they seem to demand and what they seem to be willing to pay for. It's a two way street and a vicious cycle as I've repeatedly pointed out. So many seem to want to absolve the musicians or other artists who play a part in all of this on the grounds that "they're just giving them what they want to hear". Sure, we can quite legitimately pass the blame around in any number of directions. Still, the buck stops with all of us who accept our own responsibilities in the matter. | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 47 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 1:28:22 PM |
'm suggesting that responsible artists should help to clean the "great unwashed" rather than to create further dirt and mud for them to wallow in simply because that's what they seem to demand and what they seem to be willing to pay for
They do, it's up to people to support their efforts, as a rule, they don't.
So many seem to want to absolve the musicians or other artists who play a part in all of this on the grounds that "they're just giving them what they want to hear".
The examples you've cited, weren't "musicians".
Still, the buck stops with all of us who accept our own responsibilities in the matter.
You'd think. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 1:45:57 PM | Saying music provokes violence is like saying the 5:00 o'clock news forcast does. Music is a medium just as any other. Some people use it wisely, some people don't. But you can't blame the medium for the message...if its going on, its going on.
A kid who goes off and commits crimes because of music has far more problems than the music he listens to. I don't think music causes violence, I think people do. Perhaps parents who didn't pay enough attention, perhaps chronic depression, perhaps all kinds of things...you get my drift. Maybe their temperment might attract them to a certain type of music but the music is not to blame for their temperment.
That all being said I think music can have some influence but then again, so can the weather. Maybe he wouldn't have committed the crime if it was raining out....blame the sun dammit!!! | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 49 | |
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 1:50:03 PM | ^^^^Cart placed wisely behind the horse.
Saying music provokes violence is like saying the 5:00 o'clock news forcast does. Music is a medium just as any other. Some people use it wisely, some people don't. But you can't blame the medium for the message...if its going on, its going on.
Still, some will adhere to an argument based in "post hoc ergo propter hoc", if it will serve their agenda. | |
|
| The power of music
Posted: 1/6/2006 2:00:38 PM |
Still, some will adhere to an argument based in "post hoc ergo propter hoc", if it will serve their agenda.
Late, how about "transLateing" for us, the great unwashed who are not so versed in Latin phrases? If I'm among the some who are adhering to an argument to serve an agenda, what do you suppose my "agenda" to be? | |
|
|
| Page 2 of 7
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 |
|
Home
login 
