| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 8/28/2008 4:54:47 PM | As I understand it, Jesus was Jewish Yes, Hebrew in fact. You'd be correct in your understanding of that.
And the link between Jews today and biblical Jews is quite well established with DNA. So there is no reason to doubt that Jesus looked Jewish.
Actually this is a Yes and No in that there is SOME link. More importantly there is the fact of how does a modern "jew" look? Many seem to fail to understand that as prophiciesed, the Jews suffered a great diaspora and were spread across the earth. Jews living in Europe intermarried with Europeans very frequently there is a history of this for over 1700 years. Jews living in the Maghrib are most likely by virtue of living in the same invironment to look more closely like the ancient Jews. There is no question that the Falasha for example are a part of the linage of Jews found in Ethiopia. Isreal recognized this and airlifted many out of Ethiopia. They are Hebrew not only by practice but also by DNA. There are more still there. Some still unrecognized by Isreal orfficially. (side bar, the Ethiopian christian tradition 1 of the oldest in the world supports that they are the decsendents of the Union of Queen Makeda of Sheba and King Solomon of Isreal)Then there are the darkest Jews found mostly in Zimbabwe they are the Shona and the Lemba.
In other words there are and I'd submit always have been dark skinned Jews/Hebrews that would fit into someones perception of what "black" is as a morpholigical marker.
Certainly Yeshua was painted as a dark skinned child with a dark skinned Mary by Greeks and middle easterners.....far darker than most of them, so they werent painting them simply to fit in with their own culture.
Point is, COULD Yeshua aka Jesus have been cinnamon, caramel, copper, bronze or even creamy chocolate/cocoa skinned? Of course he could have been. There is alot of evidence to show this as a real possiblity if not probability. Does it matter? If so to what degree......those are the real questions.
If you'd like links or further info on any of these points I'd be more than happy to deliver.
To say Jesus was black is sac-religious. I bet it is to YE of so little knowledge and so much judgement.
I suppose you even believe blacks built the pyramids even though egyptologists have found skeletel remains of workers and pharohs inside and they were all caucasoid. You've been sorely misinformed. Not only are many of the skelatal remains "negroid" but also those classified as "caucassiod" are also "black". You see "caucassiod" does not nesscessairly mean "white" since according to the same system of classification to which you refer the MAJORITY of caucassions are "non white" .....olive to dark brown(dare to say black) skinned, black wavey to curly haired people. A large percentage of them the British labled "black" for centuries(ex. Indians).
Not only that, Egyptians of that era painted themselves! They did NOT paint themselves as "white" and rarely as yellowish. They painted themselves as dark brown to copper or cinnamon toned and at least 1/3 of their paintings were of people from dark brown to black or a hue close to it. They did paint others as yellowish, black and white. Its been agreed by many historians that had the overwelming majority of Egyptian royal families been sent on a time travel to LA,AL,GA,FL,SC,VA,NC,Ak,TN,KY, in the 50's
they have suffered the same issues "coloreds" faced then and been made to go to jail or sit at the back of the bus in Montgomery,Selma and elsewhere where American Aparthied allowed the legal segregation of "coloreds" from "whites".
"It never ceases to amaze me at the nonsense some black people believe. "
 You must really be amazed by the nonsense some "white" people believe huh? | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:48:09 PM | I like what my daughter had to say on this subject when she was 5.
She spoke to "Diamond" all the time. I asked her, "Who is Diamond?"
She says, "Diamond is God". I asked her, "Really, and God is a girl?"
She nodded her head, "Mhmmm."
"What does Diamond look like?" I asked.
She said, "Whatever she wants to look like!!!!"
And I laughed and agreed!
Anyone who says it doesn't matter and then argues that Jesus couldn't possibly have been Black is showing that it does really matter to them.
If Aliens came down to this Earth and saw how consumed we were with race discrimination I would imagine they'd think we were stark raving mad.
It is a complete shame and very misguided. Everyone knows (or should know by now) that the origin of man was traced back to Africa, and should know by now that there is scientific proof that genetically there is virtually NO DIFFERENCE between a White man and a Black man and an Asian man and an Indian man . . . .
As if we didn't know that already. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 8/30/2008 8:14:05 AM | romanticoptimist
Did you miss placing a giant smiley at the end to show you were being witty? Or are you off your meds and believe that drivel to be truth?
Well... I stopped taking my bi polar meds over 8 months ago. Now that I know I'm crazy what's the point? Besides the list of side affects is not worth the limited help all of the commonly pre-scribed medications have.
Anywho... of course I was joking! You know me... I just like to stir stir stir it up. My favorite joke on this subject I heard from a friend of mine who was a hafe American Indian (I forget what tribe) and hafe Mexican. We could relate on several levels of the mixed ahemm "racial" experience.
OK OK so there was this White Preacher and this black Peacher and their both heading down the road argueing back and forth about what race God is. The White Preacher is saying, "you know brother, God loves everybody the same and does'nt look at the color of a mans skin but he judges the heart, but i tell you Gods White!" And the Black Preacher is saying "You know I agree with you but I just happen to have confirmed it in the scriptures that God i s Black."
So they drive happily down the road keeping their good natured arguement alive with scriptural references and pleasant platitudes when this big semi-truck comes along and creams their car sending them both instantly to heaven.
So as the Black Preacher and the White Preacher walk arm and arm to the pearly gates still debating back and forth...Gods White Gods Black thie big booming voice comes out of heaven and say..
"HOLA AMIGOS, WELCOME TO HEAVEN SENOR'S!" (WHAT? YOU DIDN'T KNOW GOD WAS MEXICAN?)
Ameera
That story about your daughter was interesting. So see... the thread goes on and speaks to those most needing to hear it or talk about it. Sometimes I need to talk about it. Oh I can tell when others don't want to hear it so I lay off it and start talking about baseball or something. I love sci fi too.... nice to meet you and welcome to POF Forums... if I'm ever in New York do you wanna do lunch?
NERO1 (and everybody)
I kinda like that point of veiw... I mean the world back then had to be similar to the one there now. You go north and folks get paler you go south and folks get alittle mo color... I think that God Chose Isreal cause they was in the middle of the human experience. So when our common creator chose to dress in flesh and come down here and tell us all to be poor in spirit if we want to be happy and own the kingdom of heaven... then we'd hear if from the wheel in the middle of the wheel.
Oh that was deep... I need to write that down...  | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 8/30/2008 11:28:33 AM | Sometimes I need to talk about it.
The first question that jumps to my mind is why? Why is it relevant? Why does it matter?
Oh I can tell when others don't want to hear it so I lay off it and start talking about baseball or something.
I don't mind talking about it, but I love to get to the why's
I love sci fi too.... nice to meet you and welcome to POF Forums... if I'm ever in New York do you wanna do lunch?
Sure, why not!  | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 8/30/2008 8:50:47 PM | i really hate all this divise exchange and i have one or two thing to say about change like the change you must change to have the change you hold dear.
All of the people who truely believe in him would know he looked like a person and as a person walked with man and will come back for a church who every one knows shows love because they are love as they are in him and he is love.  
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 8/30/2008 10:00:08 PM |
i think jesus in his time apeared to the people as a middle eastern man, but if you want him to be black , doesnt bother me,brother, its the message that counts.
Most Christians appear to believe in a Plastic Jesus anyway. I think you can order them in green if you like. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 8/31/2008 4:02:15 PM | Ha ha ha - you're all wrong, I tell ya!
We are created in the image of God + majority of humans on Earth nowadays are Asian = God is Asian!!
Just joking, people, lighten up.
OP, you might want to take a long good look in the mirror and think why is Jesus' race important TO YOU..
Afterwards, let me know how likely is a religion based on Jesus' "love all people" message to exclude people based only on sex.
Use the "Mary M.." thread please | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/2/2008 10:29:33 PM |
The claim that there is "no" historical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ is false. There may be "insufficient" evidence for some, but there is not "no" evidence.
I concur. I should choose my words more carefully. There is in fact, insufficient evidence, but there is evidence nontheless. Still, I hope that my original point is not lost. I don't blame earlier Europeans for imagining him as a White man. I disagree with their reasoning for doing it, but I do UNDERSTAND it. Without strong evidence regarding appearance, they of course assumed that a great man would be consistent with their own ideas of beauty. Doesn't matter to me anyway, since this is not my religion, but the same thing could happen to any ancient religion with a single prominent figure. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/2/2008 10:36:43 PM |
I don't blame earlier Europeans for imagining him as a White man. I disagree with their reasoning for doing it, but I do UNDERSTAND it. Without strong evidence regarding appearance, they of course assumed that a great man would be consistent with their own ideas of beauty.
Surely racism also came into play? | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 177 | |
| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/3/2008 7:42:47 AM | ^^ Another thing that came into play was that they had never really even seen blacks in most of Europe at the time when much of that art was conceived. Some of the Europeans, by medieval times at least, would have been to the Holy Land (on Crusade and/or pilgrimage) and therefore would likely have been familiar with the actual phenotype that should have most historically matched Jesus --- Jews, Kurds, Arabs, etc. Still, we tend to like to picture our gods and demi-gods as close to ourselves as possible; human nature to an extent, I suppose.
But the first time they actually came across sub-Saharan black Africans was a bit later actually. The Portuguese for instance, moving slowly and tentatively down the coast of what is today west Africa. And as soon as they saw black people along the coast or inland, they captured and enslaved them. Wherever a fight was put up by the soon-to-be slaves, they simply killed them and left them where they lay. The Spaniards and Portuguese nearly went to war in fact over slave "poaching" in the 15th century just before the discovery of the "new world".
The Portuguese king was convinced that Spanish outlaw brigands were taking black slaves and selling them in Spain (and they probably were) , from territory which Portugal had already staked off as its own. This "incident" led to the particular town in Spain, Palos, from which the "outlaw brigands" originated, being pressed by the King to give two ships and part of a crew to an enterprising Italian explorer...
So, yes racism, obviously, essentially upon first contact , and so there's no serious reason to think people like this in a time like that would have conceived of a black person being "worthy" of being placed into anything resembling a work of art...... much less a religious work of art , which they probably, more than likely, would have considered blasphemy plain and simple.... possibly even worthy of the notorious "auto-da-fe". | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/3/2008 9:21:06 AM | I'm wondering if the original poster is referring to a group called the "Black Hebrews"? This sect believes that those who call themselves "Jews" today are actually Romans, and that the real jews fled to Ethiopia and other parts of Africa after the destruction of the temple. Hence, the black race are "the chosen people". Yes, it's a very racist organization. Still, the idea is fascinating.
The common portrait of Jesus is taken from the Shroud of Turin. The image thereon seems to be of a European male. This is the main reason it is considered a fake.
It has always puzzled me why blacks are some of the most deeply devoted Christians in America. I can understand that they were kidnapped from their native soil and forced into slavery here in the United States. The religion of the slaveowners would be forced upon them, and their original religion gradually disappeared. But, in the 60's there was a "back to the motherland" movement and blacks started doing things like wearing traditional African dress and changing their names. Yet, there has not been a surge in new churches with African-based religions. ( I don't even know what they might be!)
I would think that it is because Christianity appeals to the downtrodden.
However, Cival Rights have allowed for blacks to have the same opportunities as whites. Yet, blacks still are predominantly Christian.
If I didn't know better, I'd think the Black Hebrews were onto something. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/3/2008 9:54:24 AM |
The common portrait of Jesus is taken from the Shroud of Turin. The image thereon seems to be of a European male. This is the main reason it is considered a fake
Not at all. First, the image on the Shroud is not that of a European. It may have similar features to some Europeans, but it has more in common with Semitic groups (including it's stature). Second, disputes regarding it's authenticity surround the carbon dating of parts of the fabric. New tests should resolve those matters. Where it gets interesting is if the new tests do resolve the disputes and offer conclusive scientific proof that the Shroud is from around the time of Jesus' death, how many will make the 'baby step' of accepting that He existed. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 180 | |
| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/3/2008 12:03:16 PM | And it should be unsurprising that the Shroud's features seem to reflect a European male's features even if it comes from the time of Jesus. Many Semitics , if not most actually, ARE in fact Caucasian (ie, of the Caucasian physical type -- their skulls, their facial shapes and features, etc, are "Caucasoid", not "Negroid" or "Mongoloid / East Asian"). The actual skin tone in and of itself is definitely not the defining factor, from a scientific point of view.
The US Census Bureau in fact nowadays counts everyone from Turks and Iranians, to northern Africans (Berbers, north African Arabs, etc), to other Middle Easterners (Jordanians, Palestinians, etc), and all other Mediterraneans as "Caucasian/white". A Palestinian Arab-American friend of mine who is unfortunately doing time in a US federal penitentiary at this point is indeed classified as well , on his Bureau of Prisons page which we recently found, as a "Caucasian/white" inmate. Granted however, the modern-day (particularly American) essentially social construct of "whiteness" will sometimes differ from what the Census Bureau says, but, nonetheless....
(And as a sort of "post-script" here I'd add that since the term "Hispanic" is actually a linguistic designation and not descriptive of any one particular race, it's arguable that there are many more people who theoretically could or should be considered "Caucasian/white" in the US --- thus destroying the "fears" of there being a sudden "shortage" of Caucasians in the USA within 50 yrs or whatever that one recent story in the news had said. "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants" or "Nordics" perhaps could become a minority here eventually, yes....but Caucasian peoples in general....... not a chance). | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/3/2008 12:03:35 PM | And as soon as they saw black people along the coast or inland, they captured and enslaved them. Wherever a fight was put up by the soon-to-be slaves, they simply killed them and left them where they lay. The Spaniards and Portuguese nearly went to war in fact over slave "poaching" in the 15th century just before the discovery of the "new world".
So, yes racism, obviously, essentially upon first contact , and so there's no serious reason to think people like this in a time like that would have conceived of a black person being "worthy" of being placed into anything resembling a work of art...... much less a religious work of art , which they probably, more than likely, would have considered blasphemy plain and simple.... possibly even worthy of the notorious "auto-da-fe".
Thank so much for saying this. Sometimes people of color just want others to state the obvious.
Just like a woman who has been raped wants her pain to be acknowledged.
What some may not understand is that to people of color, racism HURTS  | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 182 | |
| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/3/2008 12:14:04 PM | ^^^ There never was and never will be any excuse for the Europeans' extraordinarily xenophobic and hateful murderously racist treatment of the black Africans, as I said upon very first contact, or the Amerindians (again "upon first contact"), and so on. It's a legacy which people of European extraction have to acknowledge and realize. Most of us have and do.
Granted, the Euros are not the only guilty ones. Anti-black prejudice can and does exist amongst the Muslim Arabs for example -- who still enslave non-Muslim black Africans in some parts of the Islamic world. And around here where I live (Chicagoland) some of the most vehement anti-black prejudice and neighborhood territoriality , etc, of recent times, seems to be directed at the black peoples from the Mexican communities --- possibly, or probably, a legacy of the old world Latin racism left behind in the "new world" by the discoverers, conquerors, and colonizers.
But the European peoples have been notorious for this, no doubt. It's something that, IMO, can't even really be apologized properly or enough for, and therefore has to simply be left to (continue to) sort of "heal up". Obviously though, wounds that deep leave scars. Personally I feel the historic success of the Obama campaign has contributed greatly to some of that healing here in America. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/3/2008 1:41:15 PM | ^^^^I think what many people don't understand is just talking about it helps heal the wounds. Just acknowledging that it did happen and that it was wrong, and that the system and the ideology still exists and is still in operation today goes a long way towards allowing people to heal.
Yes, it was high time for us in America to experience the Obama effect! | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/4/2008 2:35:09 AM |
Thank so much for saying this. Sometimes people of color just want others to state the obvious.
Just like a woman who has been raped wants her pain to be acknowledged.
What some may not understand is that to people of color, racism HURTS
Whole heartedly agree.
This is why I have always said that Europeans whom have abandoned their own indigenous religions and adopted Asian ones should acknowledge that their present day religion is not theirs originally even though over the centuries they have adapted it to suit their culture.
This is why we have an "us" verses "them" culture when it comes to the present day hostilities unfolding in Southwest and Central Asia. Europeans or rather the descendants of Europeans actually believe that all the death and destruction they are causing is justified as God's work incumbent upon them to carry out. (refer to some of the religious statements of Pres. GW Bush and VP nominee S Palin)
Which or whose God. Yep that's right the same God that they adopted from Southwest Asia has returned in His European persona to rain death and destruction down on the very people He was adopted from in the first place.
The madness of it all! | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/4/2008 9:31:39 AM | I am assuming in this thread that we are talking about the religion of mainstream Christianity. I'm reminded of those cheesy 40's movies where they had white people playing all the characters from the bible - it looks so phony now and yet at the time, it was considered great cinematography. Go figure. I also get a laugh out of those pious pictures of a very European-looking Jesus surrounded by little white boys and girls. I can see why that would be offensive to just about everyone who wasn't white and even a few of us white folks, too.
It doesn't matter to me if people picture a black Jesus or a white Jesus or an Asian Jesus - it is his message that is important to me. Jesus the man had to at the very least been somewhat semitic-looking and definitely he was more "black" looking than "white." Once he became the "son of God," IMO, he has sort of morphed into a universal Jesus Christ and it is logical that each person would see Jesus Christ in the image most appealing to him/her.
I don't have an issue with people seeing Jesus Christ however they want to, but I don't like one view being pushed down everyone's throat. I can understand the pain felt by people of color at the hypocrisy of white people assuming Jesus the man must have been white. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/4/2008 1:11:55 PM |
the first time they actually came across sub-Saharan black Africans The OP never stated anything about Sub Saharan Africans being the linage from which Jesus came. Sub Saharan Africans arent the only Africans nor people to which the label "black" is used. BTW, Kurds are more Persian. Fact is however, some of the oldest paintings of Baby Jesus and Mary are of a dark skinned child and mother found in Greece and whats now Turkey as well as Egypt and Ethiopia by various artist. The Moors with whom the Portugesse and Spanish encountered were often very dark skinned certainly cinnamon/bronze skinned with the greatest frequency. Tuaregs their descendents are from light caramel to deep chocolate.
My point is that Europeans of the middle ages certainly Italians who did most of the early great paintings did encounter "black" people or certainly those who could be labeled as such today. Yes, racism is the most likely reason some Europeans especially after the 17th century wouldnt consider the prospect of Jesus being darker than light olive. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/4/2008 9:50:48 PM |
Anyone who is using religion to justify racism is reading their Bible upside down.
That would make the Old Testament come after the New... you may be onto something here.... | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 9/5/2008 10:01:35 AM | | Well i am pagan but both my parents are baptists. They both belive that jesus is not the white skined, blue eyed, blonde hair person that is is dictated as today. They firgure he had dark tanned skin, black hair and brown eyes. | |
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| Anti-black Racism in Religion!
Posted: 10/13/2008 3:09:44 PM | Sad, but true. White Christians can be some of the most racist people on the face of the earth.
I can't wait until a bunch of them (the racist ones), get to the front gate of Heaven and see a black, FEMALE, dreadlock-wearing "God(dess)" | |
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