| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/6/2006 10:27:16 AM | I would just like to correct post no:2
The reason the dark ages were called the dark ages is because so little was known of them. There is vertualy nothing of the dark ages in writen record or archaeological record and so they were a dark spot on our understanding of the past. That is all. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/6/2006 10:37:08 AM | | Ok Bright (and I do agree that you are Bright :) but isn't that what I was saying in my usual incoherent fashion? No time for writing ... ? | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/6/2006 3:07:38 PM | "The reason the dark ages were called the dark ages is because so little was known of them. There is vertualy nothing of the dark ages in writen record or archaeological record and so they were a dark spot on our understanding of the past. That is all."
I agree Bright...but I am wondering also "what caused" that darkness...it is all well and good to blame it on the Roman Empire collapse,..but this is sidestepping the point I am attempting to draw out here...that being that there is virtually nothing written down concerning the period by the contemporaries of that period... Now "Why " is that?? Did everyone who spoke and wrote Greek, and Roman, not to mention Arabic...just get suddenly retarded....????
Was there no one that was not in some fashion under the control of the Church...???
If the Church was such a Bastion of learning and fine art , why werent they spreading that around to the betterment of all mankind???
I mean they did have all the remaining books,...they did have the resources,...if they were Not involved in actually prolonging the period (for whatever motivation) then why did the renaissance
take as long as it took to truly get under way????
And once it did get under way..(genie out of the bottle so to speak) then why, if the Church was such a benevolent actor in the whole affair , why did the church act so effectively and ruthlessly and quickly to quash any and all outbreaks of "Knowledge"???
Hence my original .."What caused the Dark Ages??" | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/6/2006 5:40:26 PM | | Well 'Cmon,...you guys were doing so well...more opinions please... | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/6/2006 5:50:34 PM | Ess, when the Western Roman Empire fell, the Church, like all western European institutions, reeling on the ropes waiting for the last blow to fall.
If anything "The Church" suffered immensley from the Empires fall. The Great Schisim cut the power of the Pope in half. The political fragmentation resulting from this fall directly caused the decentralisation of temporal power into ststelets, fiefdoms and tribal states to weak to maintain a creedible standing army. This situation left Europe at the mercy of Pagan and Islamic armies that ruthlessly attacked the Church's sphere of influence and showed no respect whatsoever for its property.
The Church was also financially hurt during this time, since the chaos, plagues, wars and general poverty hurt its ability to achieve temporal power.
My understanding of things is that from 500-1000 AD the Church desperately wished for the establishment of a renewed Roman Empire and it supported Western European rulers like Charles Martel and Alfred the Great who might restore stability. What evidence is there to suggest that they actively profited from the chaos?
It seems like a stretch to say that the church had a better time during the Dark ages than under Rome, or from 1000AD to the Renaissance. What motive could they have had to continue what was for the Church, a really unpleasent time. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/6/2006 9:12:02 PM | "It seems like a stretch to say that the church had a better time during the Dark ages than under Rome, or from 1000AD to the Renaissance."...
I didnt say that...or even something close to "say that"..I was aking a question about what another poster said..
But in that vein,...it does seem a a stretch indeed to think that the Church had anything but a "better" time post-Empire...as compared to the fed to the loins, curcified all the time, buried to the neck in sand to have head torn off like a head of cabbage,..time of fun and wonder that the church was having During the Empire...My favorite story of course is the one about the Christians being beheaded, then their neck stumps cauterized with hot iron plates, then the body stood up and shoved to be wagered on as to how far it would or would not run..
Yeah the church was really doing well there...(sarcasm)...
"What motive could they have had to continue what was for the Church, a really unpleasent time.??"
Well gee , I am not sure (sarcasm again)...
Possibly to simply never return to the "good old days"???
But see It was during this very time frame that the Power Base was being Christianized in every arena...(with respect to Western Europe) And this is where there is a sudden loss of ability to write things down???
Not likely...
So, again what did cause the Dark Ages..???
And by another poster's own admission here, the Church was one of the few places where "Learning" ,and "writing" ...were being practised...so why no written history??? Why dark???
| |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/6/2006 9:48:43 PM | Well, if I am not mistaken, wasn't Christianity actually embraced by the Holy Roman Empire near the end?
I also doubt that organized religion's control over education and information was the only cause of the dark ages.
Even if the church had made an effort to maintain written records of that time, it would have been extremely difficult and that wasn't really its responsibility even if it was the only group that could have done it.
In the end, I feel that the only group that could primarially be said to be the cause of the Dark Ages would be the Romans. Their culture was set up in such a way that once it started to fall apart, there wasn't much stopping it and the common person wasn't exactly taught how to read and write.
When the big emprie fell apart there was significant infighting between the groups that split apart and nobody to really keep track of it.
Survival and stablization of government were much more important to the people at the time than education and learning. Keeping records was not even a minor concern.
Blaming Christianity or religion isn't fair. Blaming organized religion isn't even quite fair, though a bit closer. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 8:25:37 AM | Well, I am pretty sure you are mostly incorrect about most of your assertions here...but Im am not looking for an argument...if you have anything else to present ,...please do... Interesting ideas..
Thank you...
Anybody else gonna weigh in on the issue..,.??? | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 3:17:59 PM |
What factors do you feel caused the Dark Ages..and do you think that Christianity had anything to do with shortening or lengthening this period of ignorance run rampant and intolerance given full control..?????
Ummm to be honest...I'm not quite sure LOL First of all, like anything; what the "Dark Ages" means to some people is a time when Christianity was lacking, others view it completely differently. All that the Dark Ages really means is that no real records were kept for approximately 500 years or so. So we don't have any account of what happened. Was something hidden during that time? Ummmm good question. Was the church trying to hide something? Even better question. The church continues to hide things today, so I have no doubt back than they were as well. To be responsible for the dark ages though? I won't say either way really...but I also would not rule it out. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 3:32:20 PM | | More sweet, I have to question WHY there would be anything to hide if it wasn't something vitally important? Records are kept and records are mislaid, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose. What was hidden? I believe the truth is stored in the Vatican. Some will think I am crazy, but I don't think I am any crazier than the average man on the street. One thing I can tell you is this... the truth will out one day. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 3:44:04 PM | | excellent point sky...I would literally give my right #$% to have a day or so in the vaults...all of them... (that one is no good anyway :))...but seriously you have to wonder just What is down there and just why it is locked away.. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 3:55:22 PM |
More sweet, I have to question WHY there would be anything to hide if it wasn't something vitally important? Records are kept and records are mislaid, sometimes accidentally, sometimes on purpose. What was hidden? I believe the truth is stored in the Vatican. Some will think I am crazy, but I don't think I am any crazier than the average man on the street. One thing I can tell you is this... the truth will out one day.
I agree sky...but..everything has to start somewhere...right? *smiles* | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 4:04:13 PM | | Hmm....trying to picture myself living during that time....I live in west Europe, near the Atlantic, Holland maybe.... I have some knowledge of the Roman Christian faith though the Roman way is lost.. I await the Messiah's return.. this we've been promised.. No need to learn to write or read or build anything monumental... I tend my sheep.... stay away from the village.. lots of sickness (plague?) It's dirty... nobody bothers with much work... We all expect Jesus to return soon... O Heer waar zijt Hij....? Was this the reason for those days of lethargy? | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 4:11:06 PM | | The Roman Catholic Church controlled the religion and politics durung the Dark Age ! | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 7:13:14 PM | Once upon a time there was a foolish old man who lived in Northern China. His house faced the south with 2 great mountains. Taihang and Wangwu; in his backyard. Those 2 mountains frustrated him; so, armed with his hoe and great determination, he decided to remove them.
One day, as he and his sons were hoeing away at the mountains, a man of the region, known for his great wisdom, drew near to watch. Finally the wise old man said, “ how silly! It is impossible for you to dig up those 2 huge mountains with your hoes.”
The foolish old man looked at him and said” When I die my sons will continue the work. When they die there will be my grandsons. And then their sons and grandsons. And so on to infinity. High as they are, Thoese Mountains cannot grow any higher; and with every bit we dig, they will be that much lower. Why can’t we clear them away?”
So the foolish old man went on digging, undeterred by the skepticism of the wise old man. When God saw how determined the foolish old man was, he sent 2 angels to carry away the mountains on their backs.This child’s tale embodies the most revolutionary political philosophies of the 20th century. In 1945, Mao Tse-tung used the story to illustrate how China was going to rid itself of the 2 mountains of feudalism and imperialism. When he seized power in China, in 1949, Mao attracted those mountains with all the determination of the foolish old man, plus his own violent ruthlessness. He did not ignore “wise old men” he butchered them by the score. His hands also were stained with the blood of countless Christians.
In time, however, MaoTse-tung became concerned. The story would come true only if the sons kept digging away at the mountains. What if the next generation, who had never experienced the revolution, lost its zeal for the job? In 1966, when he saw China becoming bourgeois and lazy, he developed the Maoist theory of revolution. To eliminate any possibility of antirevolutionary, reactionary, revisionist cliques, China must be in constant ferment--- then every generation will have a firsthand experience of a revolution.
I’m no admirer of Mao Tse-tung. His satanic philosophy has kept hundreds of millions of people from the opportunity of hearing about Christian salvation. At the same time, I recognize his keen insight into human nature, “ the second generation syndrome”
Church history is filled with examples of this ….
“ I have met the enemy.. And he is us”
Also known as universal soldierism. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 8:12:14 PM | | ..............Please explain...a little more...I am just a little slow and more than a little dense...so if you dont mind tying this entertaining story up for Me ,...well that would be great.. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 8:27:33 PM | | Keyweydin, are you saying that Mao was the cause of China's recent dark age?? | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 8:34:08 PM | shamelless gold digger!
the dark ages were only controlled as far as people let themselves be controlled in that era. Albeit without printing press ( which was developed for the very purpose ) the masses were kept in ignorance of bible truth , Latin used by the clergy so nothing could possibly be questioned, superstition keeping the sheep in line as traditions do today.
What was going on outside Christiandome was God`s unfailing faithfulness in arising Mohamed to give Christian`s a rude wake-up call to their lack of usefulness in the time of the Gentiles given to them. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/7/2006 8:42:40 PM | Whew....
So...all history/events that happened in other places was for Christianity?
Ai!!!!! | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/8/2006 6:55:20 AM | The name Dark Ages is realy very missleading. There was writen word, and thier was much "progress" ocouring at the time. Its just that due to the social, political and economic situations they were not preserved.
We have some beutifull exampales of ilustrated manuscripts from the dark ages and the world famous "doomsday book" is from the dark ages.
Many new systems and technologies were devloped during the dark ages, such as our system of law (but not yours, the american system is closer to the roman one) the start of Scotland England and Wales (these were seperate kingdoms such as Mercia and Anglesey and Lyones before that).
The Dark Ages are only called dark because we have little writen about the history of the time. The Romans kept maticulous records of everything, but when they left they took thier teechers with them. With no one to teach, it was very dificult to learn to read and write.
Without being taught how to read or write, the comon people went back to a system of barter and swearing and oaths and bonds. Only those who HAD to read ever lerned, but even then, not all of them. Most of the gentry had no one to teach them and so never learned to write, as with the priesthood. Both had to have special scribes do the work for them.
Because these people were concerned mostly with either creating illustrated bibles, or with writing legal documents, very little of the history that was going on all around them was recorded.
The Dark Ages came and went without anyone at the time noticing the changes as most ages do. It took a generation for the Romans to invade and it took a genertion for them to fade from britain, people of the time would not have noticed the changes because they were so slow, over the course of entire lifetimes. But the changes did not matter anyway. Soe things were worse without the Romans, we lost much of thier technology, but what we gained could outweigh the losses. We gained our freedom for a start, we dd not have to pay our gold, silver, coal, iron and most of our food to the Roman ocupation forces. This in itself was a great thing as it ment fewer people were starving for food, and resources were plentifull again. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:14:02 AM | | Sooo...what exactly are you trying to say Brat Pat??? | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/8/2006 8:46:17 AM |
Beg to differ but all written word was hand writen, very tedious, mainly done by monks to preserve scripture.
Just how dose this contradict what I said? I said that was writen word. So that dose not contradict anything, I also said that very little of what was done was preserved and that dose not contradict anything so just what are you trying to say?
As for the rest of your asertations, please explain how I am contradicting myself. I thought I was being clear but I will clear it up for you if you let me know where I have been obfuscating. | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/8/2006 10:23:26 AM | | Brat Pat...that is interesting and I will look to researching the book you reference...but once again...what are you trying to say about the Dark Ages....or anything to do with that ??? | |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/8/2006 4:25:40 PM | Ahh ...the old ,"puzzle pieces" argument...that if you take a box of supposedly unrelated left over puzzle pieces and begin to place them together and ignore the printing on them ,...eventually they will form a coherent "picture" of some type...
Yeah, I smoked that argument in college also,...but it doesnt always work and ion the "real" world....there is always relation...from one event to the next....It does not happen in History that one thing (and here I am speaking of on place, like Europe) has little or nothing to do with another... there is always a connection to be made of some type and kind...
Is this more like what you meant?? Or have I misunderstood you???
| |
|
| The Dark Ages....
Posted: 1/8/2006 4:58:55 PM | | Ahhh....and please before my brain strangles me...what is this in relation to the Dark Ages?? | |
|
Home
login 
