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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/12/2007 9:07:02 PM |
Hitler used propaganda, which very powerful to this day. (..whichs IS very...?) actually hitlers propaganda was only really powerful during and before ww2, the art of propaganda has always been a powerful tool, look at all the marketing and ad agencies.
Goebbels, hitler's propagandist said the bigger the lie the easier it was to sell it as truth.
And whats a bigger lie then I'm the son of god, or I speak for god. worked for jim jones, david coresh, jesus, most of the cults in the states. as well as most religions, the pope is gods rep on earth or something right and mohamed was a prophet and most religions have at least one founder who speaks for god or is his chosen.
so is it the word of man or the word of "god"? seems to me these guys were just men and the only proof is that they said they were "god's", son/prophet/rep on earth/nephew/uncle/whatever. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/15/2007 6:22:35 PM |
Why is it that Christian translators selectively translate the Hebrew word ka'ari as "pierce" in verse 17 of the 22nd Psalm as "they pierced my hands and my feet" but everywhere else in the Bible where it is mentioned...and it is mentioned some number of times, where it is translated CORRECTLY as the definite article "like a lion" but here alone it is translated pierced????
themadfiddler~ I see you've been practicing and playing your fiddle hard. My friend Chuck Missler, will be speaking here locally this weekend and I think I'll ask him your poignant question quoted above. Like to see what Rabbi Chuck has to say here.
Now back to your regularly scheduled barmitzvah | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/15/2007 6:48:48 PM |
I wouldn't say it was that clear. Some scholars believe the 'Sons of God' were those from the Godly line of Seth, and that since 'all' man was/is subject to atonement, there could not be half-men half-demons because the sins of demons cannot be atoned for. However, some bible scholars believe the 'Sons of God' were fallen angels. In the book of Job it makes mention of 'The Sons of God' presenting themselves before God as well as Satan.
If the Sons of God and modern day aliens are fallen angels/demons, then more than likely they took on an entirely different appearance. Aliens are tiny and spindley. The Sons of God were probably very large as it mentions in Genesis there being giants at that time. The children that came forth from the Sons of God and daughters of men became the 'men of renown'. It's not likely they looked like half bug-eyed little creatures.
- All evidence suggests they could not have been the descendants of Seth but rather, angelic beings interminggling with -you guessed it- US!! This was going on in Noah's time and is prophesied to be going on again in our time before the return of Christ. One can assume possibly that the rage of 'alien abduction' cases is a significant part of this phenomenon in our time. As to 'alien' sizing and such, one cannot preclude the varying degrees of sightings in which not all 'humanoid' or non-humanoid beings are seen as being just 3-4 feet tall.  | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/15/2007 9:38:32 PM |
- All evidence suggests they could not have been the descendants of Seth but rather, angelic beings interminggling with -you guessed it- US!! This was going on in Noah's time and is prophesied to be going on again in our time before the return of Christ. One can assume possibly that the rage of 'alien abduction' cases is a significant part of this phenomenon in our time. As to 'alien' sizing and such, one cannot preclude the varying degrees of sightings in which not all 'humanoid' or non-humanoid beings are seen as being just 3-4 feet tall.
Could you see the essential irony in typing the words "all evidence suggests" as you replied to this thread? I dearly hope so.
How can an angelic being "mingle" with a human? Is there any scriptural backing to suggest that an angel actually has physical form?
What evidence is there to suggest that the sons of God are in any way fallen angels? Smells like Manichean dualism to me...
In any case, "all evidence suggests" is a very funny phrase to be using here don't you think?
all your Elohim are belong to us! | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/16/2007 12:46:02 AM | MadFiddler: not sure about the position in Judaism in Christianity re 'mingling' (though I agree with your general gist above) but in Islam the position is quite clear.
Jinn are held to be able to breed with humans and produce offspring and there are several laws on various countries' statutes governing the position of such offspring as well as the contracts of marriage between a human and jinn partner should someone marry one unawares.
I have myself been shown someone in Damascus who is said to be the offspring of such a union though they seemed pretty normal to me.
Interestingly, the folklore there is that such human/jinns die in a fiery manner and are consumed by flames. I have often wondered if this can tie in with cases of reputed Spontaneous Combustion.
Jinn are not held to be angels but another class of being entirely... | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/16/2007 9:01:06 AM |
-All evidence suggests they could not have been the descendants of Seth but rather, angelic beings interminglins with -you guessed it- US!! This was going on in Noah's time and is prophesied to be going on again in our time before the return of Christ. One can assume possibly that the rage of 'alien abduction' cases is a significant part of this phenomenon in our time.
Although the sons of God in Job translates 'Angels of God', this does not necessarily correlate with the sons of God in Genesis being 'fallen angels' as some may suggest. The Angels in Job suggest a setting apart from Satan which may 'exclude' the 'fallen angels'. They could very well be refering 'only' to the angels that serve God.
In both the old and new testament, 'sons of God' are refered to as being men. Throughout the Bible, there's various scriptural examples of, and warnings against, unequally yoked marriages. In the old testament it was foreign wives, in the new testament it's unbelievers. A sexual union outside of God's will could still produce historical significance considering Abraham's union with Hagar, and King David's union with Bathsheba. These examples would support a 'godly lineage' intermingling with an 'ungodly peoples' in a forbidden sense. And of course 'still' producing children of prominence in that time period. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/16/2007 10:49:13 AM | Jinn are not held to be angels but another class of being entirely...
There's also a cult that believes some humans are angels. I knew someone who thought he was an angel who believed in this as a result of an apparent cult member telling him this. I'm not familiar with jinns, but I'm guessing there's a correlation with genies.
Throughout the ages, man has attempted to deify themselves or others. Ironically, in biblical times, various royalty refered to themselves as being the sons of God. If man doesn't proclaim themselves or others as actuall gods, attempts are made to proclaim that 'some' of God's (human) creation (although all of us are mere mortals) are something 'outside' of human beings (angels, and probably jinns).
We even see small traits of this in human attire that stretch beyond fashion. For instance, it is humanly impossible to grow a natural gotee without scissor usage. However, it's a style or fashion that fits in with society. On the other hand, we have many excessive forms of fashion that entail manipulating the visual appearance of body parts, or entail 'implantings' into the skin. Much of it borderlines fashion, but in excess it's a subtle way of stepping 'outside' of man's natural human God created form. Although someone with head to toe tattooing may not be directly trying to become another class of being, at times these are subtle ways of making something they could never be born with, a natural part of them that sets them apart from common human form.
We live in a world that loves fantasy, and the possibilites of fantasies being realities. Many people probably love the idea that some humans are half angelic beings, or aliens, or jinns. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/16/2007 11:11:28 AM | ^^^ Yes, Genies/Jinn same thing. Genie is the Anglicized version of the Arabic.
I am not so sure it is fantasy myself - I have had a few experiences which lead me to conclude there might be other types of being and it is not so impossible a thing if one credits the existence of the spiritual realms per se.
I wouldn't necessarily say they are what they appear to be but appear in a way appropriate to the time and culture that they are appearing in....hence we get UFOs and aliens these days (no doubt to me these that many of these are jinn and in no way extraterrestrial) whereas we used to get faeries. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/17/2007 1:10:27 AM | Like Alice, I like to believe in three impossible things before breakfast. Unlike Alice, however, and very likely also like yourself, I like to read documents in context with their original sense of people, place and voice intact and not append onto them whatever "crackpot" definitions I choose to that would plant me firmly in the tinfoil hat/rat-bag/kook-of-the-month club as the original web site being sourced seems to be... you don't just pick verses from ancient scriptures willynilly and use them to prop something up because they "seem" to fit...well some people do obviously  but they shouldn't.
That being said, there is obviously some cultural current being addressed in the incubus/succubus story...the experience of being "hagged"...the night terror...and it's similarity to the alien abduction experience, fairy visitation, etc. There are similar stories cross culturally and it would be foolish to ignore them out of hand...something is certainly occuring.
That being said, I think a thorough knowledge of the stories being referenced with rabbinic commentary prevent them from being used in the light they are as "fallen angels" mingling with humans or similar stories. This is simply a confusion that arises from later readers not appreciating or understanding the texts that they are reading...and yes, frankly I am levelling a simple charge of illiteracy in Hebrew at both the translators and those who came after them.
From a broader point of view, there are likely older tales, pre-Biblical, in the Ugaritic mythological cycle of gods and humans where it is not at all unusual for gods and humans to mate...but as I highly doubt any Christian would want to claim kinship or descent from any religion they would term pagan, especially the religion most often portrayed as the enemy in the Old Testament, perhaps it would be best not to point that out. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/19/2007 10:11:01 AM | In response to message 25 posted by themadfiddler: Psalm 22:16-17: "Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me" (NIV).
You have pointed out that the word for "pierced" is "ka'ari." The NIV that I just quoted from has this footnote regarding the word "pierced": "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts / like a lion."
The New King James Version has this footnote for the same passage at the word "pierced": "So with some Heb. mss, LXX Syr, VG; MT Like a lion instead of They pierced."
I hope that puts your mind at ease about the translators deliberating lying. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/19/2007 11:09:57 AM |
Genie is the Anglicized version of the Arabic
I think....correct me if I'm wrong.
Genie comes from Genius, which meant accompanying spirit. Jinn and Genie are not connected because they sound alike. It was coincidence that the translation for Jinn happens to agree with the word Genius...which is shortened to Genie.
Again though…double check that
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/19/2007 12:32:44 PM |
I hope that puts your mind at ease about the translators deliberating lying.
Not at all...but it does mean that some publishers of more recent translations are choosing to be more responsible about showing how "ka'ari" was misrepresented as meaning "pierced" when it actually means "like a lion"...and good for them.
Some progress is being made.
It doesn't change the ideology nor intent behind the original translators however. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/19/2007 12:44:59 PM | Psalm 22:16-17: "Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me" (NIV).
Not to rain on anyone's parade... but the Romans didn't crucify people by driving spikes through their hands. They drove them through the wrists, where they could avoid hitting arteries and veins. If you crucify a man by driving spikes through his hands, the weight of his body will cause the spikes to pull out between his fingers.
As far as the mistranslation of 'pierce' is concerned, and as it has been pointed out that everywhere else it's translated, it's translated correctly rather than to signify something that it doesn't, one should not need footnotes and annotations to understand an accurately translated Bible.
Psalm 22:16-17 is clearly an alteration made to look like a prophecy.
Correction to a couple posts above: genie is the western corruption of the Arabic jinn. Remember a television show called 'I Dream Of Jeannie'? Ever read 'A Thousand and One Arabian Nights'?
Some traditions holds that all the 'fallen angels' are jinn, since jinn have free will and angels do not.
it is humanly impossible to grow a natural gotee without scissor usage
Don't know if this is completely true, though it probably is most of the time. See the beard in the picture? I don't shave the sideburns off, because I don't grow any. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/19/2007 3:47:10 PM | This thread reminds me of my travels in the Arctic. One night, there were strange lights in the sky. The elderly Inuit lady I spoke to the next day told me they were (long Inuktitut word, unpronounceable by me) "men who are not men from the sky". Of course, I was blown away. They have an actual word for this phenomenom. She went on to tell me a bunch of folklore, mostly about these "men" who would take their animals back to the sky. There is also a legend that one of their women had a baby with these "men", and that this baby could talk to the whales. Oh, and I just remembered, the next day after the lights, there were approximately 100 narwhals in the bay, all with their horns in the air, as if saluting the visit. Everyone was in awe, and the Elders said they had never seen this in their lifetime. This Event started the most talk in the High Arctic for decades.
I've since asked other Native Elders about this. Apparently, the Mi'kmaq and Abenaki have a legend that "men from lights in the sky" have intermingled with the People for millenia. For the most part, they have been benevolent.
Funny how Earth based people interpret this. They were not aware of the Bible until very recently. Sounds similar to some of the stuff I've been reading on this thread.
I believe.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/19/2007 9:17:57 PM | I,ve been to the petroglyphs in Peterborough , Ontario a couple of times and i,m amazed at the story you can read in the carvings . Ties in with Ravens post very nicelly .
Add me to the Belivers list .
Guy. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/21/2007 6:25:01 AM | Somewhere in the Bible says ther is more to Heaven and Earth than you know or something like that.
Anyway perhaps its parallel Universes/ dimensions opening up and mingling? | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/22/2007 4:56:05 AM | | The idea that God created the whole universe to form one partial of dust with living beings on it is totally absurd. Actually Earth represents something far less than a partial of dust... I don't know just how infinitesimal we are but it's surely mind-blowing. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 1/25/2007 7:02:06 PM | What if they all existed, and were all one in the same?
Undoubtedly there is sentient life on other planets and some of that life is much older then mankind.
for example:
If I were to go back in time with a cigarett lighter and a bright set of seven strobe lights and some titanium white cloaths with a wig you could be reading about "a being of white light, that looked like the son of man, and fire danceth in his palm."
"and in the mist of the seven candle sticks one like into the Son of man, cloathed with a garmet down to the foot, and a girt about the paps with a golden girdle." Revelations chapter 1 verse 13.
Magic, godlike power and all that is purely a matter of perspective, find a primitive enough audience an even the most mundane things become magical. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 2/28/2007 1:24:17 AM |
How can an angelic being "mingle" with a human? Is there any scriptural backing to suggest that an angel actually has physical form?
Yes, in Genesis. The people of Sodom wanted to rape the angels that came to visit Lot. | |
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| The Bible, angels, demons, UFOs, aliens
Posted: 2/28/2007 5:42:28 PM | | I believe in both God and aliens. However, alien persons are just too far away for them to get here. We aren't capable of interstellar travel, and I believe that the people on planets out in the galaxy and beyond are not as well. The vast distances of space make it highly unlikely that someone will visit us from another world. | |
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