| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 12:51:10 PM | Dionysyus
The comparison of drugs and prostitution is grossly over-simplified. The two are not analogous in the least.
You comment would be akin to the following.
Making it illegal does nothing to stop it...it is just like murder. You will never get it under control while you keep it illegal. | |
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yna6
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Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 52 | |
| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 12:57:30 PM | In places where it IS legalized it is almost considered a high art form. the best ones get very wealthy from it...with a minimum of work. There was a time in history when prostitution was sanctioned by the local religion...and encouraged.
Stereotyping prostitutes does not bring forth the other half of the coin. Those who are in the business to make money for themselves. Does it degrade women? As it stands right now, the only real degradation is from other woemn. They feel threatened by prostitutes. BUT...if they were giving their hubbies at home what they are purchasing elsewheres, then maybe there would be far less problems. Legalising it could well eliminate the "degradation" aspect that some people feel. Consentual sex is NOT degrading...even when paid for. What IS degrading is the lifestyle of drugs and criminal activity that follows which can be defeated by simply legalizing prostitution and putting more severe punishments towards the pimps and pushers. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 1:04:12 PM | @yna: drugs follow your first day on the job? I always thought the drugs precede it, you
know, because they are addicted to a $500 per day heroine habit that somehow you have to pay for. Yes, sometimes
they use the drugs to make the john appear more palitable - because some of
those Johns, to put it mildly, are freakin' UGLY. So maybe the solution is this: free
drug's, allow prostitution, and maybe the PIMPs can be referred to as an
account-executive. Ahhhh....i see the rainbow's coming out already.
I knew if we clunked our head's together we can solve world problems. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 1:19:36 PM | Yna6
Your quote:
"if they were giving their hubbies at home what they are purchasing elsewheres, then maybe there would be far less problems."
Oh that is grand...it is the wife's fault that a hubby goes to a prostitute, and all along I was thinking that we were responsible for our own actions, especially if we are paying someone to perform a sexual act with us. I must have been mistaken, it would appear it was the woman's fault all along.
[That was sarcasim used in an attempt to drive home the sexist nature of your comment above.]
Your quote:
"Legalising it could well eliminate the "degradation" aspect that some people feel."
The degradation aspect is not likely linked to the legality / illegality; it is linked to the act of buying and selling. The act suggests that a woman's or a man's body can be bought and sold for the pleasure of another. This act conjures many stereotypes such as 'slutty', 'whore', etc...These stereotypes do not attach to the legality of the matter, they attach to the act itself.
Your quote:
"Consentual sex is NOT degrading...even when paid for."
This uses the straw man fallacy, you raise an argument that nobody has endorsed, and demonstrate how that argument fails. I do not recall anybody in this thread arguing that consentual sex is degrading, even if paid for. The argument as I have read, and I am representing posits the following.
The act of buying or selling sex degrades the people involved. This is distinct from the argument that you raise and address.
Your quote:
"What IS degrading is the lifestyle of drugs and criminal activity that follows which can be defeated by simply legalizing prostitution and putting more severe punishments towards the pimps and pushers."
You assume that the lifestyle of drugs and criminal activity that attaches to prostitution is a result of prostitution being illegal. While such a link cannot be denied in many cases, it does not necessarily follow that by legalizing prostitution the lifestyle of drugs and crime will be defeated. There are many legal lifestyles that promote the lifestyle of drugs and crime.
Secondly, more severe punishments do not necessarily have deterrent affects. Consider for a moment the death penalty. It has not reduced the murder rates in a substantial way in any of the states or countries where is has been inacted. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 1:43:17 PM | It degrades not only the people involved but I believe it also degrades
society as a whole. Human-beings are not comodoties - dignity should not
be held for sale. I'd argue if prostitution is ENDORSED by gov't, invariably it'll have negative consequences accross other aspects of humanity that we can not yet comprehend...perhaps
the value of a human life is no longer something we are able to put much value on any longer. Then what's next? | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 1:52:56 PM | Lazy,
You were doing so good with that last post, right up until the end when you said
"the value of a human life is no longer something we are able to put much value on any longer. Then what's next?"
It probably should have read 'the value of human dignity'. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 1:53:12 PM | It degrades not only the people involved but I believe it also degrades society as a whole.
Why does it degrade them? Where is this grading scale? Can you show me where everyone fits in on this scale? Where does a janitor fit in? Where does a doctor fit in? Where does a bus driver fit in? Where is this scale that you use to grade people?
I'd argue if prostitution is ENDORSED by gov't, invariably it'll have negative consequences accross other aspects of humanity that we can not yet comprehend
I'd argue that if alcohol is endorsed by the government that we will experience negative consequences in the form of domestic violence, broken marriages, and alcohol related motor vehicle accidents, among other things, the likes of which have already been seen and that we can comprehend. Should I lobby that alcohol be criminalized? Are the brewmasters and bottlers to be thought of as lesser human beings because they provide the product that causes these problems? There was a time when moonshiners were thought of as lesser people, just like you believe prostitutes are lesser people. I don't see anyone having problems with people who provide society with alcohol anymore. | |
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yna6
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Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 58 | |
| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 1:53:37 PM | Taking things out of context really doesn't help either. A lot of men DO go to prostitutes because they get the acts performed on them that the women they live with refuse to do. Some just like variety...some use it as stress relief. I in no way said that males were NOT responsible for their actions...but I can sure come up with some reasons for them. My previous comment was not sexist...just a hard look at reality, which, in turn, was taken as "sexist" due to a "politically correct" attitude and a blatent attempt to "take the moral high-ground".
I must agree that legalizing it may well not eliminate the degrading aspect of prostitution...but it WILL eliminate the causes that are seen AS degrading. The act itself can be and has been non-degrading...in fact, in some cultures it is/was a high ranking job for some women, totally in synch with their religion. Just because it "conjures" up the image of "slutty" and "whore" is simply because of Western attitudes and morals...but times are a changing, with more and more accpetance of other peoples morals and values. Plural marriages are becoming more and more accepted in society, just as a small example. Time will erase the concept of "slut and whore" IF/when the very act of prostitution is accepted.
Safeguards for society in generan would have to be emplaced...health services, licensing, taxation, etc. Not a big problem there.
I cannot say that the lifestyle of drugs and crime would be eliminated...I CAN say that it WILL be reduced...as proven in those areas that DO have legalized prostitution. (As a side question....just what "legal lifestyle" promotes drugs and crime? Certainly not law-enforcment...I can't think of a one that actually "promotes" this lifestyle...but many that DO feed off it.) More severe punishments certainly DO reduce crime rates. Have you EVER seen a murderer that recieved the death penalty recommit? No...you haven;t..and neither has anyone else. If a pusher gets a 2 year sentance or a pimp...they are right back out doing it again. BUT...a 20 year sentance? LOL! Nope...your argument is out of line there I am afraid.
So...where is the degradation when it is legalized, licensed, taxed and brought out from the closet? A woman could say (in public) with her head held up that she is a sex-worker. No shame in it. as an example...30 years ago, openly admitting you were gay would and often did, get you socially ostracsized. But in today's society it is "Yeah...ho-hum...so what else is new?"
there is a union of organized sex workers in B.C...has been for years. As I said...it can well be a good area to open up. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 2:08:30 PM | Yna6
You make some decent points in your thread, many of which I agree with. Most importantly I agree with the 'social stigma' regarding the sex trade. I the sex trade were legalized and regulated properly, over time, I think that the stigma attached to those that choose to make a living that way would slowly recede.
However, you are grossly simplying the issue of deterrence. You have confused specific deterrence with general deterrence. Your argument is essentially that;
'If we punish the people who commit the crimes with really harsh sentences, those people will not recommit that crime.'
Firstly, the statistical rates for criminals re-offending after prolonged sentences is astonishingly high - look at some of the studies on Statistics Canada, or if you like, I can find some articles from many of the Criminal Law publications, and judicial decisions that reflect on the issue.
With respect to General Deterrence, more severe punishment of the person who commits a particular crime does not prevent others from preventing the same crime in an effective manner. Again their is a wealth of literature in the legal community that addresses this very issue.
Your argument, and I quote,
"Have you EVER seen a murderer that recieved the death penalty recommit? No...you haven;t..and neither has anyone else."
has dangerous implications. Based on that reasoning, if we wanted to prevent people from re-offending we should punish every crime by death. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 2:18:34 PM | | I don't agree with it from an ethical perspective and in the long term I'm not sure it's such a good idea for anybody actually involved in the sex trade. However, it's been around for some time and I seriously doubt it's going to go away. As such, we might as well regulate the industry and try to at least make it as safe as possible. I would however like to point out that by no means does regulation make it necessarily safe. If we legalize it, are we going to hold Johns responsible when the condom breaks or the prostitute is infected with AIDS ? Nevertheless, it couldn't be any worse than what is happening right now so it might as well be regulated. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 2:25:26 PM | | From the sounds of things this has become a morality debate; women who partake in prostitution are morally corrupt because they have sex with multiple partners. We have been conditioned within our culture to believe so, just like a man who has many sexual partners is a stud. There is such a thing as male prostitution and it is growing more common within our society; so I ask you from that perspective should it be legalized? If you take away the morality issues of women, what are your objections to it being legalized? I happen to believe that the people who work as prostitutes and society would benefit far more by prostitution being legalized than labeling it as negative and illegal. I myself as a woman do not feel threatened by prostitutes. The comment about wives not taking care of their husbands needs at home is absurd as many men could learn to take care of a wife’s needs so she may feel like partaking in sexual activities with him. Believe it or not women are sexual creatures with needs and wants but if we act like we like it or want it you label us as sexually promiscuous and thus we are forced to play the role (preconditioned by you and society) of the sweet woman who is forced upon by her man. We left the 1800’s along time ago maybe its time to broaden our perspectives. Remember the sexual revolution now we are in a sexual counter-revolution because of sexually transmitted diseases. If you’re single I know why! To a certain degree prostitution keeps women safer as they are generally (not always) servicing the needs of the socially inept (rapists and/or those who are not likely to be able to get a girl friend; to put it nicely) rather than have them go out and possibly target me walking down the street in the evenings. Many woman feel safer knowing these men do have a sexual outlet. It was once morally wrong; sanctioned by the church; to believe the world was round, lose the narrow minded, preconditioned thinking, grow up and you may see that just because a woman is sexually active does not mean that she is morally deficient. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 2:26:22 PM | Question: why is it relevant that we mention that it's been around since
the dawn of man? What makes some people believe that people thousands
of years ago were more enlightened? Weren't the dark age's something we
wanted to move away from? | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 63 | |
| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 2:38:50 PM | Well, from many peoples points of view, many of the older beliefs were well worth reaching for
But aside from that
Drug dealers and pimps are the ones who benefit from illegal prostitution
Because they hang around the same areas as the prostitutes, they also infect the rest of that areas citizens
If Pimping is illegal the pimps are the first to go
Prostitutes usually hate their pimps, or have a love/hate relationship with them
Pimps usually provide the drugs for their girls
Removing the pimps often fixes both street level crime, and drug pushing in that area
It would be a total waste of time to make Prostitution legal, and leave Pimping legal
But if Pimping is removed that will then give the women options
..
. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 3:04:46 PM | Lazy,
I am giving you a high five. You have identified a logical fallacy, appeal to tradition, or argumentum ad antiquitatem. Merely because prostitution was considered an honorable trade in the past, is not a reason to consider it as such in present day. Good stuff...seriously, I was about to comment on the issue myself but you beat me to the punch.
I would like to clear up for a moment, that I ENDORSE the legalization of prostitution. I am only playing devils advocate when I argue that it should remain illegal. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 3:51:54 PM | I point out (actually, many of us do) that prostitutes have been around for centuries because it illustrates the point that it's not something that is a fad of some sort. In other words, it's a pretty tenacious thing and since we have no reason to believe for a moment that it is ever going to go away all by itself we might as well do something to deal with it.
As to the idea that the reason for prostitution being considered a bad thing is because mostly women are the prostitutes...um...no, it's bad because of everything that surrounds the trade as well as the damage it does to the lives of the prostitutes and their families. The sex of the prostitute is really not the issue. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/18/2006 6:24:06 PM | BIAV and TGH^^^^^^^^
Why do you bother with people like Lazy? You are never going to convince him of the weaknesses in the structure of his position, nor are you going to convince him to be rational when his whole argument is based on a narrow moral vision that often is totally incompatible with human nature and the reality of things----just as no one will ever teach him to proofread his posts before he publishes them or to spell correctly. It is a losing proposition. Sometimes I think that the best way to get rid of these incompetent posters
is to ignore them: do not respond and the thread will die. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/19/2006 6:26:18 AM | Serendipitee,
I would like you to explain how you reached the conclusion that I am ignorant. If I am ignorant because I don't like people (including myself) using logical fallicies, or poorly worded arguments, then so be it.
Take Lazyboy for an example. I would not leave him alone so to speak, I challenged his arguments, and he responded politely; and yet here you are chimming in with a blatent insult and yet you do not explain yourself.
In fact on the first page you were in support of Lazyboy, now your insulting him...I think the word for that is hypocritical statement. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/19/2006 8:56:03 AM |
Serendipitee,
I would like you to explain how you reached the conclusion that I am ignorant.
I don't think she was calling you ignorant go back and read her post.
Now what were you saying about people not reading? | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/19/2006 9:34:37 AM | Foxfire...
Are you actually serious? YOU SHOULD TRY READING CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU TRY TO BE A SMART A*S.
This is her post:
"lazyboyz & Brain-In-A-Vat,
porphyro,
K, I get it now... You ignorant $1~t!"
She lists three name, mine included then says 'k, i get it now... You ignorant $1 t!"
If the ignorant comment was not directed at the three of us, then who? What understanding of English are you employing? | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/19/2006 9:59:53 AM | 1.
lazyboyz & Brain-In-A-Vat, 
She gives you guys a heart. Now why would she do that if she was calling your statements ignorant?
2.
porphyro, K, I get it now...  You ignorant $1~t!
She sticks her tongue out at porphyro.
Serendipitee
message 20
Great post lazy!!!!!
Are you actually serious? YOU SHOULD TRY READING CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU TRY TO BE A SMART A*S.
Can't you get thru a sentence without calling somone a name. You accuse Seredipitee of calling you ignorant and you call me a name.
I think the word for that is hypocritical statement. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/19/2006 10:19:43 AM | I stand corrected, I mistook the heart for a devil. [It probably does not help that I forgot my glasses at home, and my monitor at work is from 1962.]
My mistake. | |
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| should prostitution be legal?
Posted: 1/19/2006 8:34:56 PM | Brain-In-A-Vat,
On the contrary, love your posts... here and elsewhere. Bless Your Little Heart, the little pink smiley for you and lazy has hearts above his head, not horns. lazyboyz has been one of my heroes for many moons.
I've seen a number of your posts of late and I find you to be bright, articulate and an interesting read. No insult intended... promise! You were even polite in your response to me when you thought I had insulted you. Class act!
foxefire,
You were correct in your analysis. Thanks!
porphyro,
Here's my point: dipitee's point  | |
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