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LL3
| Joined: 9/10/2005 Msg: 151 | |
| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/10/2006 6:32:41 PM | | Prostitution is legal here....However, the discussions and money transfers leading up to it aren't. Lovely the way in which they got around that..... | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/11/2006 5:58:45 AM | They should do as they do in Mexico, Germany, Nevada, and other parts of the world: Legalize it.
In Mexico, the prostitutes have to register as such. They have to get monthly check ups to ensure they have NO diseases. They must be trained in condom and spermicide use. Demand the john use the condoms. I have seen the redlight districts in some towns, they are walled off district to themselve. Imagine cantina/brothels. Just as if someone stepped into the wild west. The cops are there only to keep the peace, while the tricks and the johns enjoy themselves.
If they are found out contaminated with a disease they can not ply their trade. If they do..off to jail they go.
I say the moralistic bullsh!t must end. And legalize what has been around for a LONG time. Besides, the quality control will help stop the spread of disease.
I hear the aging prostitues in Germany are being hired as care givers to the elderly. Hmm...new meaning to the Golden Years! | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/11/2006 12:34:20 PM | | Getting rid of the pimp should be step number one, which means getting rid of the gangs too which is very easy if the military is involved. Then legalize it. | |
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tekrok
| Joined: 6/28/2006 Msg: 154 | |
| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/11/2006 2:30:04 PM | Do you really think a prostitute wants to sleep with you. she has to buddy, FOR THE MONEY,it all about the money, not becouse ur going to give her a orgasm. are you kidding me here.
granted, i believe they should legalize it,only becouse it would be safer for all those concerned.
Married women should go downtown to witness for themselves how many married guys with their babies car seats in the back seat pick up prostitutes with aids. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/11/2006 6:42:56 PM | | It's easy to legalize things that are tuff to defend and enforce. That's the lazy mans solution....always. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/11/2006 6:48:13 PM | ^^^^so what is your solution?
Yes, I KNOW it should be legal....I don't have to think about it. | |
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NateC
| Joined: 4/10/2006 Msg: 159 | |
| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/11/2006 10:03:13 PM | | Prostitution, could be made legal. Whether or not it should depends on the quality of the framework set down to make legalised prostitution work. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/12/2006 9:41:46 AM | I have a button that reads "Marriage is Legalized Prostitution" LOL But seriously, I think whores are disgusting, but as they have no effect on me, why not? Guys who use them deserve whatever disease they are going to get, and nothing saying they couldn't get the same from a pick up in a. But, they do have to deal with the embarrassment of having to admit to the fact that you can only get it by paying for it LOL Keeping it illegal is about as much of a waste of time as keeping marijuana illegal. Don't think it will ever stop. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/13/2006 10:59:58 AM | NO,it should always be illegal.
http://www.cwfa.org/printerfriendly.asp?id=3457&ddepartment=bli&...
Legalizing Prostitution at the U.N. 3/5/2003
United Nations Headquarters, New York City — When discussion at the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW) Conference turned to sex trafficking and how to abolish the practice that enslaves from 700,000 to 4 million women and girls each year, liberal feminists at the United Nations asserted that the legalization of prostitution is a solution, arguing it would empower women.
But a panel presentation titled "Prostitution: Male Violence Against Women Exposed" shed light on how instead of eradicating sex trafficking, legalizing prostitution exacerbates the problem.
Melissa Farley, Director of Prostitution Research and Education, a project of the San Francisco Women's Center, revealed the findings of a survey of 854 people currently or recently involved in prostitution in Canada, Colombia, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, the United States and Zambia, and their experiences of sexual and physical violence.
The survey showed that of those involved in prostitution:
89% wanted to escape, but did not have other options for survival; 65% to 95% had been sexually assaulted as children; 70% to 95% were physically assaulted; 60% to 75% were raped; 88% experienced verbal abuse and social contempt; 68% met criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. The severity of symptoms was in the same range as combat veterans seeking treatment, battered women seeking shelter, rape survivors, and refugees from state-organized torture.
Next, Sheila Jeffreys, associate professor of the University of Melbourne and Director of Coalition Against Trafficking in Women for Australia, spoke on the conditions women suffered under legalized prostitution. The industry is mainstreamed in Australia, which has legalized brothels in New South Wales, Australian Capital Territory, Queensland and Victoria.
Jeffreys explained that legalized prostitution did not solve the problem of criminal involvement in the industry. It did not solve the problem of unregulated expansion. And it did nothing to quell the violence committed against street-prostituted women. In fact, all of these problems worsened.
Trafficking has increased the supply of new brothels. Child prostitution has grown markedly in Victoria compared with other Australian states. Men who were formerly called procurers and pimps now comprise a newly respected class of sex "businessmen." And the state of Victoria has become dependent on the earnings of prostitution through increased taxation, licensing fees and the promotion of prostitution for tourism.
The Far Left has argued that legalizing prostitution would enable women to choose their working conditions and their clients. According to an article in Victoria's The Age newspaper (3/1/1999), former pimps with criminal convictions are forbidden by legalized prostitution from owning legal brothels, but they control them under front organizations. Furthermore, it is virtually impossible for exploited women to set up business for themselves.
The United States is quite clear on the issue. Last week President Bush signed a Presidential Directive that committed his country to working toward raising awareness and reducing incidences of trafficking in persons through programs of prevention, protection and prosecution. Furthermore, the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) stated that "Organizations advocating prostitution as an employment choice or which advocate or support the legalization of prostitution are not appropriate partners for USAID anti-trafficking grants or contracts."
"Anyone who considers legalizing prostitution as a solution to sexual trafficking or poverty should be required to learn what prostitutes endure," said Wendy Wright, representing Concerned Women for America. "No one wants their daughter to grow up to be sexually abused, so we shouldn't legitimize the abuse of other people's daughters." | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 7/13/2006 11:34:30 AM | BryonNC:
I'm suprised you chose this "article" to cut and paste. Being as your profile states your non-religious, did you bother to look at the background from where this "article" came from?
I must say...context....context.... | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/18/2009 11:28:36 PM | are you trying to say taht that is a reason not to legalize prostitution???
I would I dont care to date that girl If you think that is bad t date that kind of girl : 2 things first that's hte guy who is gonna date her is choice, and in your case dont do it, even if legaized there will be plenty of women who are not prositutes | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/19/2009 11:46:42 AM | Wow another interesting thread.
Well let me state never used the services of the prostitute. Been offered many times, just not my thing. It's not the paying for it that is an issue either for me personally. Well, to be honest we always "pay for it" one way or another. The line on this is so thin it is not even funny. What is the difference between an actual professional prostitute or a guy or a girl who goes out there and gives favors for a new car, a cell phone bill, dinner and a movie etc etc.
Nada.
They are the same for the most part. One gets tossed in the poky the other is permitted to run around and continue the same basic thing.
It took some soul searching in me to figure out why I never wanted to use the services of a prostitute. I had to think had because it is not the disease issue. You are just as likely in fact sometimes even more likely to get burned by the regular girl/guy(if you go that way) down the street as a hooker. Sometimes the girl/guy down the street is 1000Xs more promiscuous than the actual hooker.
After my soul searching I discovered the reason I said no to the beautiful hookers whom offered me their services. It was the same reason I do not go for gold diggers. They do not care one bit about me. They want what is in my wallet. I like to have something more than just a friction on the member. (If I wanted only that much safer, easier and cheaper to handle that myself.) Even if sex is the main thing in a relationship, it is nice to have a bit more of a connection with the person than just friction on the member.
Though I am quite the libertarian for the most part and I do not believe it my right nor the governments right to tell two consenting adults what kind of relationship they wish to have. If the relationship revolves around money and that is their fetish. SO BE IT!
No one elses business at all. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/21/2009 9:40:48 AM | >>>89% wanted to escape, but did not have other options for survival; 70% to 95% were physically assaulted; 60% to 75% were raped;
If prostitution were legal, they would have a greater chance for "escape", since there would be legal actions they could use to protect themselves- by making it illegal, you don't stop prostitution from happening- you only force women to interact with the criminal element, and have nowhere to turn to if something further illegal happened while they were breaking the law...
>>>88% experienced verbal abuse and social contempt;
Isn't that whats going on here?
>>>Men who were formerly called procurers and pimps now comprise a newly respected class of sex "businessmen."
And, as of such, if they abuse their employees, they are legally liable- such is not true when prostitution is illegal.
>>>former pimps with criminal convictions are forbidden by legalized prostitution from owning legal brothels, but they control them under front organizations.
How is proving that Austrillian laws can be maniplulated prove the issue wrong? I can prove that Welfare, Employment Insurance, labour laws and Lobbyists can maniplulate the system- does that mean these things shouldn't have a place in society either? | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/21/2009 3:41:56 PM | Prostitutes have the opportunity to be legal ... just report their earnings and pay taxes on it. Self-employment is not against the law.
As a nurse, I have all kinds of equipment that when I have to purchase it, I can itemize it for tax purposes. A prostitute could do the same ... he/she could itemize whatever it is that prostitutes furnish when meeting up with customers.
On the tax return where they ask you to list your occupation, he/she could just write in "Customer Service Rep". | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/21/2009 5:23:47 PM |
Prostitutes have the opportunity to be legal ... just report their earnings and pay taxes on it. Self-employment is not against the law.
As a nurse, I have all kinds of equipment that when I have to purchase it, I can itemize it for tax purposes. A prostitute could do the same ... he/she could itemize whatever it is that prostitutes furnish when meeting up with customers.
On the tax return where they ask you to list your occupation, he/she could just write in "Customer Service Rep".
Darlin we are not talking about for tax purposes. You and I both know that if they get busted doing what they do by law enforcement they go to jail. That is what people are talking about.
They wont take the nurse to jail but, they will take a lady to jail for trading sex for money. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/22/2009 10:26:29 PM |
Well, to be honest we always "pay for it" one way or another.
Really now?
I find that a little difficult to believe. There are countless women on this dating site that regularly complain that most men are too cheap to buy them dinner without complaining about it. And this isn't the seventies anymore. Women often make more than men and can compete with ease. We don't need men to pay for anything so I'm not sure where anyone digs up this attitude; in fact this tired old phrase is more than a bit used up and worn out. And it's sexist as hell on top of that.
But anyway, buy and sell people like a fast food commodity huh? The integrity of our society is just overwhelming.
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/22/2009 11:43:42 PM |
Really now?
I find that a little difficult to believe. There are countless women on this dating site that regularly complain that most men are too cheap to buy them dinner without complaining about it. And this isn't the seventies anymore. Women often make more than men and can compete with ease. We don't need men to pay for anything so I'm not sure where anyone digs up this attitude; in fact this tired old phrase is more than a bit used up and worn out. And it's sexist as hell on top of that.
But anyway, buy and sell people like a fast food commodity huh? The integrity of our society is just overwhelming.
I think that what is sexist here is your assumption I was only talking about men paying for it. I said we all pay for it one way or another.. I think what is sexist is your assumption that you feel only women can be prostitutes. Scroll on up love and see that I put woman/man meaning I know full well that both men and women engage in these activities of making people they wish to have sex with pay for it. Now you try to lay the blame for stating the obvious on me. How lovely.
You are the one delving into sexism here not I.
Like I said I do not buy nor sell sex. I get plenty for free from my fiance thanks. Though some others seem to have a fetish for mixing sex and money and who am I or you to tell them what to do behind closed doors with another consenting adult? Much less the government. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/23/2009 12:06:08 AM | If prostitution were legal, they would have a greater chance for "escape", since there would be legal actions they could use to protect themselves- by making it illegal, you don't stop prostitution from happening- you only force women to interact with the criminal element, and have nowhere to turn to if something further illegal happened while they were breaking the law...
Really?
10 Reasons for Not Legalizing Prostitution
Janice G. Raymond
Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW) March 25, 2003
The following arguments apply to all state-sponsored forms of prostitution, including but not limited to full-scale legalization of brothels and pimping, decriminalization of the sex industry, regulating prostitution by laws such as registering or mandating health checks for women in prostitution, or any system in which prostitution is recognized as sex work or advocated as an employment choice.
As countries are considering legalizing and decriminalizing the sex industry, we urge you to consider the ways in which legitimating prostitution as work does not empower the women in prostitution but does everything to strengthen the sex industry.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry. It expands it.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.
Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex industry increases child prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.
Women in systems of prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.
ARGUMENTS:
1. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.
What does legalization of prostitution or decriminalization of the sex industry mean? In the Netherlands, legalization amounts to sanctioning all aspects of the sex industry: the women themselves, the so-called clients and the pimps who, under the regime of legalization, are transformed into third party businessmen and legitimate sexual entrepreneurs.
Legalization/decriminalization of the sex industry also converts brothels, sex clubs, massage parlors and other sites of prostitution activities into legitimate venues where commercial sexual acts are allowed to flourish legally with few restraints.
Ordinary people believe that, in calling for legalization or decriminalization of prostitution, they are dignifying and professionalizing the women in prostitution. But dignifying prostitution as work doesn't dignify the women, it simply dignifies the sex industry. People often don't realize that decriminalization, for example, means decriminalization of the whole sex industry not just the women. And they haven't thought through the consequences of legalizing pimps as legitimate sex entrepreneurs or third party businessmen, or the fact that men who buy women for sexual activity are now accepted as legitimate consumers of sex.
CATW favors decriminalization of the women in prostitution. No woman should be punished for her own exploitation. But States should never decriminalize pimps, buyers, procurers, brothels or other sex establishments.
2. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.
Legalized or decriminalized prostitution industries are one of the root causes of sex trafficking. One argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that legalization would help end the exploitation of desperate immigrant women trafficked for prostitution. A report done for the governmental Budapest Group* stated that 80% of women in the brothels in the Netherlands are trafficked from other countries (Budapest Group, 1999: 11). As early as 1994, the International Organization of Migration (IOM) stated that in the Netherlands alone, nearly 70 per cent of trafficked women were from CEEC [Central and Eastern European Countries] (IOM, 1995: 4).
The government of the Netherlands promotes itself as the champion of anti-trafficking policies and programs, yet cynically has removed every legal impediment to pimping, procurement and brothels. In the year 2000, the Dutch Ministry of Justice argued for a legal quota of foreign sex workers, because the Dutch prostitution market demands a variety of bodies (Dutting, 2001: 16). Also in the year 2000, the Dutch government sought and received a judgment from the European Court recognizing prostitution as an economic activity, thus enabling women from the EU and former Soviet bloc countries to obtain working permits as sex workers in the Dutch sex industry if they can prove that they are self employed. NGOs in the Netherlands have stated that traffickers are taking advantage of this ruling to bring foreign women into the Dutch prostitution industry by masking the fact that women have been trafficked, and by coaching the women how to prove that they are self-employed migrant sex workers.
In the one year since lifting the ban on brothels in the Netherlands, NGOs report that there has been an increase of victims of trafficking or, at best, that the number of victims from other countries has remained the same (Bureau NRM, 2002: 75). Forty-three municipalities in the Netherlands want to follow a no-brothel policy, but the Minister of Justice has indicated that the complete banning of prostitution within any municipality could conflict with the right to free choice of work (Bureau NRM: 2002) as guaranteed in the federal Grondwet or Constitution.
In January, 2002, prostitution in Germany was fully established as a legitimate job after years of being legalized in so-called eros or tolerance zones. Promotion of prostitution, pimping and brothels are now legal in Germany. As early as 1993, after the first steps towards legalization had been taken, it was recognized (even by pro-prostitution advocates) that 75 per cent of the women in Germany's prostitution industry were foreigners from Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay and other countries in South America (Altink, 1993: 33). After the fall of the Berlin wall, brothel owners reported that 9 out of every 10 women in the German sex industry were from eastern Europe (Altink, 1993: 43) and other former Soviet countries.
The sheer volume of foreign women who are in the prostitution industry in Germany, by some NGO estimates now up to 85 per cent, casts further doubt on the fact that these numbers of women could have entered Germany without facilitation. As in the Netherlands, NGOs report that most of the foreign women have been trafficked into the country since it is almost impossible for poor women to facilitate their own migration, underwrite the costs of travel and travel documents, and set themselves up in business without outside help.
The link between legalization of prostitution and trafficking in Australia was recognized in the U.S. State Department's 1999 Country Report on Human Rights Practices, released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor. In the country report on Australia, it was noted that in the State of Victoria which legalized prostitution in the 1980s, trafficking in East Asian women for the sex trade is a growing problem in Australia. Lax laws, including legalized prostitution in parts of the country, make [anti-trafficking] enforcement difficult at the working level.
3. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry. It expands it.
Contrary to claims that legalization and decriminalization would regulate the expansion of the sex industry and bring it under control, the sex industry now accounts for 5 percent of the Netherlands economy (Daley, 2001: 4). Over the last decade, as pimping became legalized and then brothels decriminalized in the Netherlands in 2000, the sex industry expanded 25 percent (Daley, 2001: 4). At any hour of the day, women of all ages and races, dressed in hardly anything, are put on display in the notorious windows of Dutch brothels and sex clubs and offered for sale -- for male consumption. Most of them are women from other countries (Daley, 2001: 4) who have in all likelihood been trafficked into the Netherlands.
There are now officially recognized associations of sex businesses and prostitution customers in the Netherlands that consult and collaborate with the government to further their interests and promote prostitution. These include the Association of Operators of Relaxation Businesses, the Cooperating Consultation of Operators of Window Prostitution, and the Man/Woman and Prostitution Foundation, a group of men who regularly use women in prostitution, and whose specific aims include to make prostitution and the use of services of prostitutes more accepted and openly discussible, and to protect the interests of clients (NRM Bureau, 2002:115-16).
Faced with a dearth of women who want to work in the legal sex sector, the Dutch National Rapporteur on Trafficking states that in the future, a proposed solution may be to offer [to the market] prostitutes from non EU/EEA countries, who voluntarily choose to work in prostitution. They could be given legal and controlled access to the Dutch market (NRM Bureau, 2002: 140). As prostitution has been transformed into sex work, and pimps into entrepreneurs, so too this potential solution transforms trafficking into voluntary migration for sex work.The Netherlands is looking to the future, targeting poor women of color for the international sex trade to remedy the inadequacies of the free market of sexual services. In the process, it goes further in legitimizing prostitution as an option for the poor.
Legalization of prostitution in the State of Victoria, Australia, has led to massive expansion of the sex industry. Whereas there were 40 legal brothels in Victoria in 1989, in 1999 there were 94, along with 84 escort services. Other forms of sexual exploitation, such as tabletop dancing, bondage and discipline centers, peep shows, phone sex, and pornography have all developed in much more profitable ways than before (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001).
Prostitution has become an accepted sideline of the tourism and casino boom in Victoria with government-sponsored casinos authorizing the redeeming of casino chips and wheel of fortune bonuses at local brothels (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001). The commodification of women has vastly intensified and is much more visible.
Brothels in Switzerland have doubled several years after partial legalization of prostitution. Most of these brothels go untaxed, and many are illegal. In 1999, the Zurich newspaper, Blick, claimed that Switzerland had the highest brothel density of any country in Europe, with residents feeling overrun with prostitution venues, as well as experiencing constant encroachment into areas not zoned for prostitution activities (South China Morning Post: 1999).
4. Legalization/decriminalzaton of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.
Legalization was supposed to get prostituted women off the street. Many women don't want to register and undergo health checks, as required by law in certain countries legalizing prostitution, so legalization often drives them into street prostitution. And many women choose street prostitution because they want to avoid being controlled and exploited by the new sex businessmen.
In the Netherlands, women in prostitution point out that legalization or decriminalization of the sex industry cannot erase the stigma of prostitution but, instead, makes women more vulnerable to abuse because they must register and lose anonymity. Thus, the majority of women in prostitution still choose to operate illegally and underground. Members of Parliament who originally supported the legalization of brothels on the grounds that this would liberate women are now seeing that legalization actually reinforces the oppression of women (Daley, 2001: A1).
The argument that legalization was supposed to take the criminal elements out of sex businesses by strict regulation of the industry has failed. The real growth in prostitution in Australia since legalization took effect has been in the illegal sector. Since the onset of legalization in Victoria, brothels have tripled in number and expanded in size; the vast majority having no licenses but advertising and operating with impunity (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001). In New South Wales, brothels were decriminalized in 1995. In 1999, the numbers of brothels in Sydney had increased exponentially to 400-500. The vast majority have no license to operate. To end endemic police corruption, control of illegal prostitution was taken out of the hands of the police and placed in the hands of local councils and planning regulators. The council has neither the money nor the personnel to put investigators into brothels to flush out and prosecute illegal operators.
5. Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex industry increases child prostitution.
Another argument for legalizing prostitution in the Netherlands was that it would help end child prostitution. In reality, however, child prostitution in the Netherlands has increased dramatically during the 1990s. The Amsterdam-based
ChildRight organization estimates that the number has gone from 4,000 children in 1996 to 15,000 in 2001. The group estimates that at least 5,000 of the children in prostitution are from other countries, with a large segment being Nigerian girls (Tiggeloven: 2001).
Child prostitution has dramatically risen in Victoria compared to other Australian states where prostitution has not been legalized. Of all the states and territories in Australia, the highest number of reported incidences of child prostitution came from Victoria. In a 1998 study undertaken by ECPAT (End Child Prostitution and Trafficking) who conducted research for the Australian National Inquiry on Child Prostitution, there was increased evidence of organized commercial exploitation of children.
6. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.
The Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW) has conducted 2 major studies on sex trafficking and prostitution, interviewing almost 200 victims of commercial sexual exploitation. In these studies, women in prostitution indicated that prostitution establishments did little to protect them, regardless of whether they were in legal or illegal establishments. The only time they protect anyone is to protect the customers.
In a CATW 5-country study that interviewed 146 victims of international trafficking and local prostitution, 80% of all women interviewed suffered physical violence from pimps and buyers) and endured similar and multiple health effects from the violence and sexual exploitation (Raymond et al: 2002).
The violence that women were subjected to was an intrinsic part of the prostitution and sexual exploitation. Pimps used violence for many different reasons and purposes. Violence was used to initiate some women into prostitution and to break them down so that they would do the sexual acts. After initiation, at every step of the way, violence was used for sexual gratification of the pimps, as a form of punishment, to threaten and intimidate women, to exert the pimp's dominance, to exact compliance, to punish women for alleged violations, to humiliate women, and to isolate and confine women.
Of the women who did report that sex establishments gave some protection, they qualified it by pointing out that no protector was ever in the room with them, where anything could occur. One woman who was in out-call prostitution stated: The driver functioned as a bodyguard. You're supposed to call when you get in, to ascertain that everything was OK. But they are not standing outside the door while you're in there, so anything could happen.
CATW's studies found that even surveillance cameras in prostitution establishments are used to protect the establishment. Protection of the women from abuse is of secondary or no importance.
7. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.
With the advent of legalization in countries that have decriminalized the sex industry, many men who would not risk buying women for sex now see prostitution as acceptable. When the legal barriers disappear, so too do the social and ethical barriers to treating women as sexual commodities. Legalization of prostitution sends the message to new generations of men and boys that women are sexual commodities and that prostitution is harmless fun.
As men have an excess of sexual services that are offered to them, women must compete to provide services by engaging in anal sex, sex without condoms, bondage and domination and other proclivities demanded by the clients. Once prostitution is legalized, all holds are barred. Women's reproductive capacities are sellable products, for example. A whole new group of clients find pregnancy a sexual turn-on and demand breast milk in their sexual encounters with pregnant women. Specialty brothels are provided for disabled men, and State-employed caretakers who are mostly women must take these men to the brothels if they wish to go (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001).
Advertisements line the highways of Victoria offering women as objects for sexual use and teaching new generations of men and boys to treat women as subordinates. Businessmen are encouraged to hold their corporate meetings in these clubs where owners supply naked women on the table at tea breaks and lunchtime.
A Melbourne brothel owner stated that the client base was well educated professional men, who visit during the day and then go home to their families. Women who desire more egalitarian relationships with men find that often the men in their lives are visiting the brothels and sex clubs. They have the choice to accept that their male partners are buying women in commercial sexual transactions, avoid recognizing what their partners are doing, or leave the relationship (Sullivan and Jeffreys: 2001).
Sweden's Violence Against Women, Government Bill 1997/98:55 prohibits and penalizes the purchase of sexual services. It is an innovative approach that targets the demand for prostitution. Sweden believes that by prohibiting the purchase of sexual services, prostitution and its damaging effects can be counteracted more effectively than hitherto. Importantly, this law clearly states that: Prostitution is not a desirable social phenomenon and is an obstacle to the ongoing development towards equality between women and men.**
8. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.
A legalized system of prostitution that mandates health checks and certification only for women and not for clients is blatantly discriminatory to women. Women only health checks make no public health sense because monitoring prostituted women does not protect them from HIV/AIDS or STDs, since male clients can and do originally transmit disease to the women.
It is argued that legalized brothels or other controlled prostitution establishments protect women through enforceable condom policies. In one of CATW's studies, U.S. women in prostitution interviewed reported the following: 47% stated that men expected sex without a condom; 73% reported that men offered to pay more for sex without a condom; 45% of women said they were abused if they insisted that men use condoms. Some women said that certain establishments may have rules that men wear condoms but, in reality, men still try to have sex without them. One woman stated:It's regulation to wear a condom at the sauna, but negotiable between parties on the side. Most guys expected blow jobs without a condom (Raymond and Hughes: 2001).
In reality, the enforcement of condom policy was left to the individual women in prostitution, and the offer of extra money was an insistent pressure. One woman stated: ;I'd be one of those liars if I said "Oh I always used a condom." If there was extra money coming in, then the condom would be out the window. I was looking for the extra money. Many factors militate against condom use: the need of women to make money; older women's decline in attractiveness to men; competition from places that do not require condoms; pimp pressure on women to have sex with no condom for more money; money needed for a drug habit or to pay off the pimp; and the general lack of control that prostituted women have over their bodies in prostitution venues.
So called "safety policies" in brothels did not protect women from harm. Even where brothels supposedly monitored the "customers" and utilized "bouncers," women stated that they were injured by buyers and, at times, by brothel owners and their friends. Even when someone intervened to control buyers' abuse, women lived in a climate of fear. Although 60 percent of women reported that buyers had sometimes been prevented from abusing them, half of those women answered that, nonetheless, they thought that they might be killed by one of their "customers (Raymond et al: 2002).
9. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.
Most women in prostitution did not make a rational choice to enter prostitution. They did not sit down one day and decide that they wanted to be prostitutes. Rather, such choicesare better termed survival strategies. Rather than consent, a prostituted woman more accurately complies to the only options available to her. Her compliance is required by the very fact of having to adapt to conditions of inequality that are set by the customer who pays her to do what he wants her to do.
Most of the women interviewed in CATW studies reported that choice in entering the sex industry could only be discussed in the context of the lack of other options. Most emphasized that women in prostitution had few other options. Many spoke about prostitution as the last option, or as an involuntary way of making ends meet. In one study, 67% of the law enforcement officials that CATW interviewed expressed the opinion that women did not enter prostitution voluntarily. 72% of the social service providers that CATW interviewed did not believe that women voluntarily choose to enter the sex industry (Raymond and Hughes: 2001).
The distinction between forced and voluntary prostitution is precisely what the sex industry is promoting because it will give the industry more security and legal stability if these distinctions can be utilized to legalize prostitution, pimping and brothels. Women who bring charges against pimps and perpetrators will bear the burden of proving that they were forced. How will marginalized women ever be able to prove coercion? If prostituted women must prove that force was used in recruitment or in their working conditions, very few women in prostitution will have legal recourse and very few offenders will be prosecuted.
Women in prostitution must continually lie about their lives, their bodies, and their sexual responses. Lying is part of the job definition when the customer asks,did you enjoy it? The very edifice of prostitution is built on the lie that women like it. Some prostitution survivors have stated that it took them years after leaving prostitution to acknowledge that prostitution wasn't a free choice because to deny their own capacity to choose was to deny themselves.
There is no doubt that a small number of women say they choose to be in prostitution, especially in public contexts orchestrated by the sex industry. In the same way, some people choose to take dangerous drugs such as heroin. However, even when some people choose to take dangerous drugs, we still recognize that this kind of drug use is harmful to them, and most people do not seek to legalize heroin. In this situation, it is harm to the person, not the consent of the person that is the governing standard.
Even a 1998 ILO (UN International Labor Organization) report suggesting that the sex industry be treated as a legitimate economic sector, found that prostitution is one of the most alienated forms of labour; the surveys [in 4 countries] show that women worked "with a heavy heart,""felt forced,"or were ";conscience-stricken" and had negative self-identities. A significant proportion claimed they wanted to leave sex work [sic] if they could (Lim, 1998: 213)."
When a woman remains in an abusive relationship with a partner who batters her, or even when she defends his actions, concerned people don't say she is there voluntarily. They recognize the complexity of her compliance. Like battered women, women in prostitution often deny their abuse if provided with no meaningful alternatives.
10. Women in systems of prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.
In a 5-country study on sex trafficking done by the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women and funded by the Ford Foundation, most of the 146 women interviewed strongly stated that prostitution should not be legalized and considered legitimate work, warning that legalization would create more risks and harm for women from already violent customer and pimps (Raymond et al, 2002). "No way. It's not a profession. It is humiliating and violence from the men's side. Not one woman interviewed wanted her children, family or friends to have to earn money by entering the sex industry. One stated: Prostitution stripped me of my life, my health, everything.
CONCLUSION
Legislators leap onto the legalization bandwagon because they think nothing else is successful. However, as Scotland Yard's Commissioner has stated: 'You've got to be careful about legalizing things just because you don't think what you are doing is successful.
We hear very little about the role of the sex industry in creating a global sex market in the bodies of women and children. Instead, we hear much about making prostitution into a better job for women through regulation and/or legalization, through unions of so-called sex workers,and through campaigns which provide condoms to women in prostitution but cannot provide them with alternatives to prostitution. We hear much about how to keep women in prostitution but very little about how to help women get out.
Governments that legalize prostitution as sex work will have a huge economic stake in the sex industry. Consequently, this will foster their increased dependence on the sex sector. If women in prostitution are counted as workers, pimps as businessmen, and buyers as consumers of sexual services, thus legitimating the entire sex industry as an economic sector, then governments can abdicate responsibility for making decent and sustainable employment available to women.
Rather than the State sanctioning prostitution, the State could address the demand by penalizing the men who buy women for the sex of prostitution, and support the development of alternatives for women in prostitution industries. Instead of governments cashing in on the economic benefits of the sex industry by taxing it, governments could invest in the futures of prostituted women by providing economic resources, from the seizure of sex industry assets, to provide real alternatives for women in prostitution.
NOTES:
*Budapest Group. (1999, June). The Relationship Between Organized Crime and Trafficking in Aliens. Austria: International Centre for Migration Policy Development. The Budapest process was initiated in 1991. Nearly 40 governments and 10 organizations participate in the process, and about 50 intergovernmental meetings at various levels have been held, including the Prague Ministerial Conference.
**The National Rapporteur on Trafficking at the National Swedish Police has stated that in the 6 months following the implementation of the Swedish law in January 1999, the number of trafficked women to Sweden has declined. She also stated that according to police colleagues in the European Union that traffickers are choosing other destination countries where they are not constrained by similar laws. Thus the law serves as a deterrent to traffickers. Quoted in Karl Vicktor Olsson, Sexkopslagen minskar handeln med kvinnor, Metro, January 27, 2001: 2.
REFERENCES
Altink, Sietske. (1995). Stolen Lives: Trading Women into Sex and Slavery (London: Scarlet Press). Budapest Group. (1999, June). The Relationship Between Organized Crime and Trafficking in Aliens. Austria: International Centre for Migration Policy Development. Bureau NRM. (2002, November). Trafficking in Human Beings: First Report of the Dutch National Rapporteur. The Hague. 155 pp. Daley, Suzanne. (2001, August 12). "New Rights for Dutch Prostitutes, but No Gain. New York Times, pp. A1 and 4. Dutting, Giseling. (2000, November). Legalized Prostitution in the Netherlands Recent Debates. Women's Global Network for Reproductive Rights, 3: 15-16. IOM (International Organization for Migration). (1995, May). Trafficking and Prostitution: the Growing Exploitation of Migrant Women from Central and Eastern Europe. Budapest: IOM Migration Information Program. Lim, Lin Lean (1998). The Sex Sector. International Labour Office, Geneva, Switzerland. Raymond, Janice G., Donna M. Hughes, Donna M. and Carol A. Gomez (2001). Sex Trafficking of Women in the United States: Links Between International and Domestic Sex Industries, Funded by the U.S. National Institute of Justice. N. Amherst, MA: Coalition Against Trafficking in Women. Available at www.catwinternational.org Raymond, Janice G., Jean d'Cunha, Siti Ruhaini Dzuhayatin, H. Patricia Hynes, Zoraida Ramirez Rodriguez and Aida Santos (2002). A Comparative Study of Women Trafficked in the Migration Process: Patterns, Profiles and Health Consequences of Sexual Exploitation in Five Countries (Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Venezuela and the United States). (2002). Funded by the Ford Foundation. N. Amherst, MA: Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW). Available at www.catwinternational.org South China Morning Post (1999, September 10).Brothel Business Booming at a Legal Red-Light District Near You. Sullivan, Mary and Jeffreys, Sheila. (2001). Legalising Prostitution is Not the Answer: the Example of Victoria, Australia. Coalition Against Trafficking in Women, Australia and USA. Available at www.catwinternational.org Tiggeloven, Carin. (2001, December 18). Child Prostitution in the Netherlands.Available at www.nw.nl/hotspots/html/netherlands011218.html.
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/23/2009 5:03:32 PM |
I think that what is sexist here is your assumption I was only talking about men paying for it. I said we all pay for it one way or another..
Actually you didn't. Further into your comment, it does appear as if you meant it that way, but that wasn't the way you said it initially. At any rate, let's assume that you meant what you've just said that we ALL pay for it one way or another. Again, how do you figure? What exactly are you implying?
I don't know about you but no one pays for it with the goal of getting it from me. And I don't pay with the goal of getting it from anyone else either. I tend to be someone who wouldn't even consider something like that. I cover the costs for what I desire for myself, myself, and I'm normally paired with those who think similarly. Now of course, there have been those occasions in the beginning of courtship in the past, where men who were somewhat traditional and old fashioned insisted on paying for dinner and a movie. They weren't expecting anything though. They weren't paying for anything more than dinner and a movie because they were gentlemen, and they were fine with that.
I think what is sexist is your assumption that you feel only women can be prostitutes. Scroll on up love and see that I put woman/man meaning I know full well that both men and women engage in these activities of making people they wish to have sex with pay for it. Now you try to lay the blame for stating the obvious on me. How lovely.
Yeah well, your statement inferred the good old "We men pay for it one way or another." As if men are going to get stuck coughing up money whether they are going out with everyday women or a whore who charges and the same goes for visa versa. Or in other words, we'll have to put out some cash no matter who we date, so we might as well gamble on a sure thing (the prostitute). This is an old phrase that has been around as long as I have or longer and it specifically was something men said about women. I get now that you didn't mean it that way but I still feel that however you meant it, it's not necessarily true anymore.
Like I said I do not buy nor sell sex. I get plenty for free from my fiance thanks. Though some others seem to have a fetish for mixing sex and money and who am I or you to tell them what to do behind closed doors with another consenting adult? Much less the government.
Well, I'm glad you're not having to pay for it. And as for who you are to tell others what to do with their money and whether or not they should buy other consenting adults, it boils down to a simple ethical consideration. The buying and selling of human flesh is not ethical, in my opinion, and has the possibility for great abuse to occur. It's not something that we should support. I don't feel that participation in this process as the payer or the payee is the action of one with integrity or a healthy lifestyle, again, in my opinion, of course. And we don't all pay for it one way or another. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/23/2009 5:27:23 PM |
Yeah well, your statement inferred the good old "We men pay for it one way or another." As if men are going to get stuck coughing up money whether they are going out with everyday women or a whore who charges and the same goes for visa versa. Or in other words, we'll have to put out some cash no matter who we date, so we might as well gamble on a sure thing (the prostitute). This is an old phrase that has been around as long as I have or longer and it specifically was something men said about women. I get now that you didn't mean it that way but I still feel that however you meant it, it's not necessarily true anymore.
No my statement said just what it said. I was not inferring a thing other than we all pay for it one way or another. We either give up our freedom to date others, pay someones bills, act like a "gentleman" or "lady" what someone expects that to be like etc. They are all methods of payment. If you take that to mean something else than that then that is in your paranoia that everyone who is male is sexist. It stems from your interpretation of what I said. It is called taking people out of context. You could have asked me what I meant by that statement but, instead you chose to claim I was being sexist before even understanding what I meant.
The buying and selling of human flesh is not ethical, in my opinion, and has the possibility for great abuse to occur. It's not something that we should support. I don't feel that participation in this process as the payer or the payee is the action of one with integrity or a healthy lifestyle, again, in my opinion, of course. And we don't all pay for it one way or another.
OK now we are talking... That is your opinion and view now let me ask you who are you to use the government to force your opinion/moral views on others who may not feel the same way?
Again I dont agree with nor use the services of a prostitute but, I will also stand up for two consenting adults who do to have the right to do so if they wish to.
That is the difference I believe in free will and liberty and you believe your morals should be forced on others via government and laws.. That my dear lass is called theocracy. | |
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| should prostitution be legal? Posted: 3/23/2009 5:58:09 PM |
OK now we are talking... That is your opinion and view now let me ask you who are you to use the government to force your opinion/moral views on others who may not feel the same way?
I'm the same person who favors pro-life, who favors universal health care and an odd variety of other beliefs that are mostly social conservative but sometimes stray from that, as in I don't believe in the death penalty either. I'm no more "using the government to force my opinion/moral views on others who may not feel the same way" than the next guy or gal. We all influence our politicians through our vote and so do you. No one's vote counts anymore than anyone else's and we vote for who supports us on the issues, if such a choice is possible hopefully. Just as you think my opinion is going to force my views, I feel the same about yours.
Again I dont agree with nor use the services of a prostitute but, I will also stand up for two consenting adults who do to have the right to do so if they wish to.
That is the difference I believe in free will and liberty and you believe your morals should be forced on others via government and laws.. That my dear lass is called theocracy.
You see, I disagree with you. I don't think we're talking about free will and liberty at all. You believe in your way as the right way for all and that's likely how you vote. Your stance on this particular issue is unethical, imo, and it's forcing your opinion and view on the rest of us, and on those prostitutes who sell their flesh for money, who may well be abused because of their desire or need to do so.
I also believe that those who utilize the services of these people should be the ones we bring to justice. These "johns," men or women, need to be held accountable by the law, along with those who sell their bodies. | |
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