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lyndi
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Joined: 7/2/2006
Msg: 126 | |
| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 7:59:53 AM | This is the perfect answer to the whole issue. Zentral says it all. This is why it is even an issue op. Around my area..most men are big on wanting independent women. I am a somewhat needy person. But i am independent. I am independent because i have to be.
Im a single mom..who has never had the 'dad' in the pic at all. NOt once not ever and not a red cent from him. However I dont want to be independent. I dont like it and i dont think i am doing that hot of a job at it. My issue is what the heck is so wrong with needing someone? I would love to be wanted and needed? It is close to the same meaning to me. If you really love someone...you desire them sure but you feel you specifically need them and only them to be happy. I think that is sweet and desirable. I want a man that wants to be needed. Cant find one.
I think needy is misunderstood to a deg ree. Just like nice guy is. There is a fine line. I mean i dont want to suck up the life force out of some one. I dont want them to do everything for me..i want to share..with the knowledge that i can count on them IF i need them they will be there. Guess that makes me lousy. sorry. Plus i understand the needing of personal time and space alone. But whatever.
SOme women seem to get a real kick out of being independent and providing all their own stuff and doing all their own things and not needing a man for anything..like to almost put themselves above a man in their mind that men are mere diversions for pleasure only. That is how i see it, only my opinion. A little too prideful..like it is wrong to need help or seek help...like it makes you weak or something. I disagree. THings go much better when shared and balanced. No one is an island. One person doing the job of two is not easy and is not healthy or balanced. SOmething has to suffer somewhere to a degree..there is only so much you can carry in your arms at one time..no matter what you have to do.
SOrry to rant.
Independent is a self imposed title some wear like a freaking crown of glory. Yey you can do on your own. Yey for you. I guess they say that to let the man know they dont want but 'certain' things from you. you have only so much you can expect if you get involved with the independent woman. How freeing and great is she> She can pay for the date, drive you. Sex you. and see ya later? She doesnt need anything but your company when it suits her? You are just a diversion for a time when it suits her. SHe runs the show. That is my breakdown on it. She is an individual. She wants to keep it that way. nuff said. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 8:41:09 AM | ^^^ As your post demonstrates, there doesn't have to be a point.
I read the forum rules and it's very clear on this point.
I understand what you're saying, lyndi. -especially liked the part about how "SOme women seem to get a real kick out of being independent and providing all their own stuff and doing all their own things and not needing a man for anything..like to almost put themselves above a man in their mind". Very astute to have noticed this is going on.
vvvvvvv Um, I didn't say "attract", so you read something which wasn't there. As far as "we require a little more substance from men"... yes: "They ["modern" women] are harder to please, and hence pleased less often." - H.L. Mencken (c.1920) | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 8:45:37 AM | Sometimes independence results from the realization that "a man is not a plan". The Beaver Cleaver days are long gone. Females cannot depnd upon males for lifetime support/care. Statistically, they die before us and sometimes they leave. In this new millinium, it is beneficial/necessary for a woman to have her own job/career and bank account.
Being able to hod our own in a man's world should be appreciated. If a man reads aggression in our assertiveness, that's his short sightedness. Not our problem.
And as far as baggage... is it an overnight bag, a simple satchel, or a duffle bag? No matter the size, understand that we ALL tote one -- including men.
[Independence = spinster] We don't know how to attract a man? Come on. We all know what men like. Maybe we no longer wish to be objectified and require a little more substance from men, therefore, are no longer into playing games. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 9:27:53 AM | Come on, Life -
Msg 125: "Independent" = Spinster You say this like it is a bad thing. I was trying to make light of it, but apparently, did not succeed. Unfortunately, with just a few years between you and I, both unmarried, it seems I fall into a "negative" category. In general, middle aged unmarried men do not have the same social connotations (irrespective of Kirstie Alley's personal observations).
For many years, the "playboy" attitude (confirmed bachelor, etc.) has been one that is admired. It is disingenuous to use an archaic term to put down (and really, I can see no other interpretation) the "hard to please modern woman." It appears to scare women with the prospect of being unmarried. If men want freedom to have non-traditional roles and relationships, it does not serve their purpose to bind women to societal expectations through pressure or fear.
P.S. Interesting cultural ramifications for your quote "They ["modern" women] are harder to please, and hence pleased less often." - H.L. Mencken (c.1920) since it was around the time women got the vote (in the U.S.A.).
Edit/Add: For context, here is the text immediately preceding the extract you quoted:
From In Defense of Women – Chapter V by H.L. Mencken New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1920, 1922
The gradual emancipation of women that has been going on for the last century has still a long way to proceed before they are wholly delivered from their traditional burdens and so stand clear of the oppressions of men. But already, it must be plain, they have made enormous progress--perhaps more than they made in the ten thousand years preceding. The rise of the industrial system, which has borne so harshly upon the race in general, has brought them certain unmistakable benefits. Their economic dependence, though still sufficient to make marriage highly attractive to them, is nevertheless so far broken down that large classes of women are now almost free agents, and quite independent of the favour of men. Most of these women, responding to ideas that are still powerful, are yet intrigued, of course, by marriage, and prefer it to the autonomy that is coming in, but the fact remains that they now have a free choice in the matter, and that dire necessity no longer controls them. After all, they needn't marry if they don't want to; it is possible to get their bread by their own labour in the workshops of the world. Their grandmothers were in a far more difficult position. Failing marriage, they not only suffered a cruel ignominy, but in many cases faced the menace of actual starvation. There was simply no respectable place in the economy of those times for the free woman. She either had to enter a nunnery or accept a disdainful patronage that was as galling as charity.
Nothing could be, plainer than the effect that the increasing economic security of women is having upon their whole habit of life and mind. The diminishing marriage rate and the even more rapidly diminishing birth rates how which way the wind is blowing. It is common for male statisticians, with characteristic imbecility, to ascribe the fall in the marriage rate to a growing disinclination on the male side. This growing disinclination is actually on the female side. Even though no considerable, body of women has yet reached the definite doctrine that marriage is less desirable than freedom, it must be plain that large numbers of them now approach the business with far greater fastidiousness than their grandmothers or even their mothers exhibited. They are harder to please, and hence pleased less often. Once again, your stand alone, out-of-context quote could be construed as a “put-down.” In context, it is obvious that the premise is that women now have choices that their grandmothers and other female relatives did not (dire necessity no longer controls them). Therefore, "modern women" have freedom to be “pleased” and no longer have to settle for untenable situations. Having such choices (whether or not marriage is attractive, etc.) about what is “pleasing” is a luxury that has eluded the fair gender until very recently. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 7:04:42 PM | If a woman feels the need to proclaim this WHILE seeking a mate, just run..
She usually fits one of these categories..
1. Realizes men do not like her, or her personality, so in a way it is a defense mechanism..If people ask her why she is 40 and single, saying "I dont NEED you, I am independent! I don't need any man!" sounds better than stating the truth.
2. She is not very bright. She doesn't realize how much of a turn off this is, and she thinks it sounds like she accomplished something great because she has a job and can pay a bill. Anyone with an IQ of over 70 can do this too. It sounds bitter to men.
3. She truly IS NEEDY, and tries to mask that by saying the opposite. Like people who say "I hate drama" They hate it because they are always in it..
4. Or you are entering into a relationship in which you have to play some game.. You never really know where you stand, as they have to constantly prove how they don't need you in their life.. Sounds wonderful.
So ladies, when a man offers to take you on a vacation, or hand you thousands of dollars, or offers to buy you a new car, or pay your rent/mortgage, then you can tell him "No thanks, I am independent!" Until that happens, don't worry about stating it, as us men are not looking to give you money anyway. Or you can enlarge your vocabulary to be more specific, instead of using one overused word that is open to interpretation.
Its like a man putting on his profile "Good in bed" Yes this can be a good thing, but it also might turn people off. He would be pretty dumb to put that.. And by putting that, does that mean it is believable? It's just words... Words that sound dumb to the opposite sex whom you are trying to attract.. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 8:09:57 PM | I don't know either  Wouldn't that be a goal of any human being? - to be independant.... I guess that some women are a little too proud - and some men are a little too proud... -see what i'm saying? Yeah, it's not easy | |
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ponie
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Joined: 1/25/2006
Msg: 133 | |
| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 9:10:13 PM | Whats the big deal?
The thought of an Independant woman doesn't threaten my manhood at all!
Hey ego how about you, are you threatened ......... ego? EGO????
How about you pride? pride?....... PRIDE???
I bet if I could keep my ego and pride in check, it wouldn't bother me at all...
Wait it doesn't bother me.....lol
Finally, my wallet's not an issue...She has her own.
So she wont nag at me for days about wanting something done, she will just do it?
And why is this a problem? | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 10:39:20 PM | | an independent woman shouldnt scare you away, hell I dont want your pride, your ego or your wallet...just your heart baby......just your heart. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/13/2007 11:03:08 PM | | I meet a lady here on pof about easter time, we out to dinner,concerts sightseeing and she is an independent lady, well she is a teacher and when school started back up it was a rat race as she was teaching some new type of class so i told her to call me when it calmed down some, well 2 weeks went by and no call so i called and we tlaked and when we got down i tiold her the same thing call me when it qutis down some. I never contacted her it was over a month and she sent me an email finnaly thier was no way i was going to contact her till she contacted me. If you to be want independent you can make the call allso i figure. I like her and enjoy her company and doing things together so i will give her all the independence she want even to not call or bother her. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 4:43:04 AM | I have a different definition of this than most people..men and most especially women....I am strong and independent, but like one of the other posters mentioned about his mother's generation, I have a side that wants to be taken care of.
To me, being strong means that I can handle what life throws at me. Do I prefer someone by my side to share in the struggles and catch me when I stumble? Yep...just like I would do for them.
I am independent in the sense that I have set beliefs about what is right and wrong, religion, politics, and other things. I was raised very differently from even a lot of my friends...I learned a lot from my parents about responsibility. I don't need to be "equal" with men...I just need to be accepted for myself. That includes the side of me who isn't afraid to pick up a wrench and work on my car, but also the soft side that wants to be held and loved.
Just my 2 cents. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 7:05:04 AM | I am a Very Strong Independent Woman I always have been because I have been Divorced now for about 8 years so we tend to do more things on our own since there is not a man around the house and I believe that us Women want to have that Priveledge of knowing that we don't need a man to help and we have the know how we can take care of Our Family and bring home the bacon there are too many of us that were in a bad realtionship or in a abused family life that we want to beable to be the suportive one no matter what the situation is. In Most cases the Man Does't know in Which direction he is going or coming nor knows which direction in Most cases where is going in Life. So We as Indepentent Women Need That, Its Not a Bad Thing its actually a good thing Because we are Head Strong....
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 10:18:09 AM | In Most cases the Man Does't know in Which direction he is going or coming nor knows which direction in Most cases where is going in Life. So We as Indepentent Women Need That, Its Not a Bad Thing its actually a good thing Because we are Head Strong....
I wounder if its is all the mixed singlas the men get from the ladys i want this but next day i dont. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 10:20:52 AM |
Whats the big deal?
The thought of an Independant woman doesn't threaten my manhood at all!
Hey ego how about you, are you threatened ......... ego? EGO????
How about you pride? pride?....... PRIDE???
I bet if I could keep my ego and pride in check, it wouldn't bother me at all...
Wait it doesn't bother me.....lol
Finally, my wallet's not an issue...She has her own.
So she wont nag at me for days about wanting something done, she will just do it?
And why is this a problem?
Yep....pretty much frees men of all the old obligations they used to complain about...sort of isn't really a downside to it. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 10:32:59 AM |
yep....pretty much frees men of all the old obligations they used to complain about...sort of isn't really a downside to it.
That would actually be true if there wasn't for hypergamy, increased pressure to marry (yuck!), anti-male bias in policy making in certain legalities (check out the new proposed non-martial sex registry law in one state, no shit), and women who refuse to marry down. Plus not even initiating dates or asking men over.
I'm a non-traditionalist man. I'm sick to death of women who are damsels in distress, wanting to be rescued, wanting their hands held 24/7, and wanting someone else to play surrogate father. No f---ing way.
I'd love to see more career women, single or divorced (with no children) be more assertive and stop playing games about what they want and step up to the plate. Unfortunately, not everyone of them is meeting us men halfway. I'm not the only one who has observed this, too.
Funny how certain members here cry they don't need a man, and then turn around and complain about it in the same post---I'm not picking on you, UB, you're still not the norm.
Wish there were more of you. Sadly, there isn't. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 10:49:26 AM | I don't complain
I say "independant" because I want to make it clear I am not looking for anyone to support me financially. I have my life.... I'm happy with my life... I don't "need" a man to be happy. I would like to share my life... but in the past I have come across men who want to run my life...not going to happen. I like my autonomy, but see interdependance as something also desirable.
Maybe there is an element of defensiveness there, which I think comes from being in a generation that is sort of "between", by that I mean a lot of men my age still have a lot of the old-fashioned idea that the man is head of the household... it's a matter of upbringing and generational stuff. But it's a concept I don't live by, and can not accept. I've been my own boss for far too long to ever abandon that. Compromise is a different issue. The world has changed so much, so fast, and roles are kind of up in the air right now. It's a difficult adjustment for all. And communication isn't always clear.
Just my thoughts | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 12:52:38 PM | Just Raven,
You make it clear in your profile you are not seeking marriage. I am guessing you are seeking a friend with benefits? Do the men that contact you offer you money and to pay your bills so often that you have to immediately let them know you don't need their money?
Since you are independent, strong willed, etc, do you pick up men for potential dates, plan the dates, pay for the dates etc? As you have said, roles have changed. Or is that still the mans job?
I don't think many men are offended when a woman with kids who is just seeking a FWB claims her independence. Nobody really cares, lol. It is sad when women of the younger generation, yet to be married, have that attitude. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 1:11:56 PM | | How can these independent tell men are intimidated? Do they actually say that? Is there some other clue? Many seem to know its true so they must be able to explain how they came to this knowledge. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 2:29:20 PM | I've been married, I don't like it...I don't have to get married to have a serious relationship. I'm not having any more kids...why should I want to get married?
No...don't need a FWB. Nope they don't offer me money (well I have had "propositions in the past, but I was never interested), but with all the posts from guys about gold-diggers, and money, I want to set it straight. If I wanted to be a ho or a mistress I would do that.
Yes... I usually let the guy pay for the first date if he asked me out (most seem to like that), but sometimes split it.... Or I pay for drinks he pays for dinner...If I ask a guy out then I pay.
I really don't understand why it's so difficult to understand. I've got my independance, he has his...hopefully we can get together and ENHANCE each others lives. Seems simple to me. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 2:54:48 PM | OP,
With no malice intended, unless you've had a sex change you really can't know what it's like to grow up female. Not that it's at all a bad thing (*I* like it!), but sometimes we get treated as though we can't do things for ourselves or handle our own problems. Of course not all men treat women as children but there are some who do just that. I don't particularly like it when women are so fiercely independent they go overboard in stating it, but perhaps some might want to lay some ground rules. Perhaps they get involved with the wrong guys for them and end up feeling smothered, controlled or babied. Or...maybe some are cynical man-haters. (Leave those ones for someone else!)
All of us (men & women) are different, have varying temperaments, and like to be treated according to our personalties instead of being lumped in as one of "The Other Sex -- and who really understands them anyways?!" Generally I would hope that women who state their independence would still appreciate the common courtesy of having a door held open, having a dinner paid for or just having someone worry about them if they're late. Those are all the same things I would afford *any* human being whether I knew them well or not.
I once dated a guy who would hold me back from crossing the street until he thought it was safe! Something like that can drive a grown person crazy.
By your post it sounds as if *you* may be a little intimidated by an independent woman.
sometimes a strong woman can be attractive at times, IF she's fun to be around.
You don't say what you mean by 'strong', but the way you phrased that sounds as though you'd rather be in control. Nothing wrong with that just find someone who enjoys being more dependent on you.
But, it kinda gets old when some of these women throw around, "Men are intimidated by an indepdent woman" I have a hard time believing that, because they don't intimidate me that's for sure.
Now you are the one 'throwing around' a statement that's just the opposite! If independent women really don't intimidate you why even bother bringing it up?
Again, said honestly and without malice.
Cheers,
Wanda. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 3:01:06 PM | Ravenstar,
I think a question of mine is,
What is the glue that would make one guy want to stay with you long term? You don't need him, he doesn't need you. Are you basing everything on "love"? Do you think men love women like that? Or perhaps are men wired a bit differently to give love to women who state they do need them for love, support, companionship, etc.
When you have a limited vocabulary, and use words like "independent", and "don't need a man", the man whom you are trying to attract does not understand what you mean, or why you feel the need to say that. You can illustrate the same thing, by saying something like "I need a man in my life for love, companionship, and intimacy" Instead of just saying "I don't need a man!.. I am independent!", and then the man has to guess as to what you mean. You are equating all your needs with the opposite sex to money, which is a turn off.
So you don't want a fwb, or a marriage. But you want a relationship in which you have your independence, and the man deeply loves you.. I am not sure if men can deeply love a woman who does not give them 100% . It would be a nice world if we could change 100000 of years of evolution to simply create our perfect relationship.
I see it as a trade off.. You can enjoy your independence, but you miss out on love. Or you can have love, but sacrifice your independence. Some women these days seem to seeking some selfish perfect mixture, in which they get love, but also are independent.
I think you need a FWB. Your profile states you are seeking friends.. | |
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nogo3
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Joined: 2/26/2007
Msg: 147 | |
| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 3:13:07 PM | hey kid, i think that you should leave raven alone, she discribed it very well and if you knew what women mean when they say independant, then you would not have to try and twist it around to mean what you want it to mean.
give us real men an independant woman anyday, they are a true treasure. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 4:05:35 PM | Thank you Nogo3
I would hope that a man would want to be with me because I could make him laugh, challenge his mind, share our hopes and dreams, support each other in our endeavors... enjoy shared interests...I would hope that he could learn as much from me as I could from him..that we could both become better people from our relationship with each other. I think the best thing 2 adults can be for each other is to be each others biggest fans. There is little more satisfying to me than having someone I can talk to about my fears, and aspirations, share my failures and successes with, and have that person trust and respect me enough to share theirs with me...and I believe a lot of people feel the same way. Someone to let your hair down with. If a man wants to be with me because he doesn't think I am capable of taking care of myself then he has put me, in his mind, in a "one down" position... I am no longer a partner..I am an ego boost for him. I'm not interested in that.
None of these marvelous things has anything to do with "needing" another to take care of you...and everything with meeting each other as equals, with different qualities. It has to do with bringing your SELF to another and accepting them also.
The point is that although I want to have a relationship that is mutually beneficial..I really do not need one to be whole and happy, I have a fulfilling life and people that I love, work that is satisfying and challenging, friends, hobbies, my child and family that I care deeply about...a romantic relationship would just be the icing on the cake. It would make life richer.... and obviously I would probably get on best with a man who also had a life of his own and was comfortable with who he is and isn't looking for someone who is more dependant. And...I've actually met quite a few who are like that..here on POF. They appreciate who I am, and respect my independance,...it's not for everyone, but it's perfect for me. | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 4:10:53 PM | Raven!
I say "independant" because I want to make it clear I am not looking for anyone to support me financially. I have my life.... I'm happy with my life... I don't "need" a man to be happy. I would like to share my life... but in the past I have come across men who want to run my life...not going to happen. I like my autonomy, but see interdependance as something also desirable.
Maybe there is an element of defensiveness there, which I think comes from being in a generation that is sort of "between", by that I mean a lot of men my age still have a lot of the old-fashioned idea that the man is head of the household... it's a matter of upbringing and generational stuff. But it's a concept I don't live by, and can not accept. I've been my own boss for far too long to ever abandon that. Compromise is a different issue. The world has changed so much, so fast, and roles are kind of up in the air right now. It's a difficult adjustment for all. And communication isn't always clear.
That sums it up perfectly! I do believe a sense of defense comes into play, on both sides.
Speaking of which, there is an overabundance of defensiveness here...hehehe... (on POF). Sometimes it feels as though everyone's just waiting to attack each other, and this is a dating site!
Compromise is key. Not all men are the same and not all women are the same and thank GOD for that! 'Roles' in a relationship should be whatever works for the two in it. At this point in time (society) men & women are trying to figure out how to be equal and we never will be. I suck at math but I'm an excellent artist; my roomate's highly astute and dynamic at managing people but he can't spell worth a damn. I'll never be able to bench 100, and I'll bet my next 'boyfriend' won't be able to do needlepoint. (Well, you never know) Some people will get paid less than they deserve and some will be paid more than they're worth. Life just isn't always fair. It's time to treat people as individuals, with all of their flaws, instead of seeing gender, sexual orientation, race, religious differences, etc. as being a great divide. It's in being different that we achieve balance.
Did I just go off on a rant?!
I guess what I'm trying to say is, we're here to find a good fit with another person, and it seems an awful lot of us end up... well, actually taking out frustrations from past relationships on each other! It's actually kinda funny when you think about it.
Maybe it's therapeutic... | |
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| Independent woman seeks....
Posted: 10/14/2007 4:16:37 PM |
I see it as a trade off.. You can enjoy your independence, but you miss out on love. Or you can have love, but sacrifice your independence.
bohnbones,
Just wondering why you think you have to sacrifice one for the other? I don't understand... | |
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