late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 51 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:18:44 PM | Harsh?
Well, it's like this .... sometimes when a person is arguing a point, another will throw the "red herring" attacking the argument because of a spelling mistake or grammatical error.
This is bad form, and also bad logic.
However, if a person does this and states.
"You're grammer and spelling is no good, you should go back too school"
Open season.
After all, the topic of the thread is:
"What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???"
reason
n 1: a rational motive for a belief or action; "the reason that war was declared"; "the grounds for their declaration" [syn: ground] 2: an explanation of the cause of some phenomenon; "the reason a steady state was never reached was that the back pressure built up too slowly" 3: the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination; "we are told that man is endowed with reason and capable of distinguishing good from evil" [syn: understanding, intellect] 4: the state of having good sense and sound judgment; "his rationality may have been impaired"; "he had to rely less on reason than on rousing their emotions" [syn: rationality, reasonableness] 5: a justification for something existing or happening; "he had no cause to complain"; "they had good reason to rejoice" [syn: cause, grounds] 6: a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion; "there is reason to believe he is lying" v 1: decide by reasoning; draw or come to a conclusion; "We reasoned that it was cheaper to rent than to buy a house" [syn: reason out, conclude] 2: present reasons and arguments | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:23:48 PM | "OK Guy, your on your own"
Not at all. There are others in this forum who understand where I'm coming from.
"since he backtracked many times and stated he was 'just in the learning stage'."
Okay, fair enough. I did not notice him retract that post. Perhaps I missed it. It's being so adamant about an issue and spewing out fallacy after fallacy that irks me. that's what I mean by willful ignorance- the adamant attitude. If he later said that he was wrong and retracted the post, then that's great. I respect that. Hopefully he learned his lesson and will not stamp his feet so loudly over issues on which he is uninformed- like science. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:26:47 PM | Willful ignorance? Damn! You want to see that you should come over to Forming Your Own Religion Thread.
There you will see logic being ground down under the feet of dogma. Wonka? By all means...take on those proponents of willful ignorance.
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:30:37 PM |
I believe in God, Jesus and what the Bible teaches.
Your are confused in your first statement: Which one do you mean?
1. Do you believe in Jesus as the God?
2. Do you believe in God who created Jesus?
3. Do you believe in God and Jesus and think they are the same? (If so then why don't you simply say, I believe in God whose name is Jesus) | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:32:34 PM | Lets just leave the guy be. He admits he is not an authority on the bible. He was simply sharing the idiom they have given him to base his love of the bible on. Honestly I wish I did not think so much and know so much it tangles the brain in persuits of logic instead of persuits of life.
Believe whatever you want to believe. I wish I could be more like you. Sometimes it is good just to believe something to have something to believe in. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:32:48 PM | "Pascals Axiom states"
It's called Pascal's wager, and it is a faulty bit of reasoning from an otherwise brilliant mind. His wager was essentially this- if you believe in God, and you are wrong, you lose nothing. If you don't believe in God, but are wrong, you have a lot to loose. The problem with this is that there are many many different religions, some of which are mutually exclusive of others, so the only way to win the wager is to believe in all religions, but that is not logically possible, since, by the tenets of some religions, you are sinning by believing in others. In fact, it is flawed in many ways. It didn't take long for other philosophers to debunk that one.
"You want to see that you should come over to Forming Your Own Religion Thread."
I took a quick look, and since I am really not studied on whether or not Christianity was influenced by Buddhism, I can't comment. I can say that it's obvious who you are talking about though. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:43:02 PM | Well it doesn't matter to me what kind of responses I get( I enjoy reading what's on everyones mind).........as long as it makes the person who is responding feel better. Because the kind of responses I get make me believe more about the truth and understand it even more. You wonder why??? because I see how much people hold onto hate.......hate can mean many things....for example.....There was a man in my city a couple of months back who climbed a crane like structure to the top. They were in the process of building condos I think.....but that's besides the point. Everybody from the ground watched and laughed and criticized, and they all wanted him to jump(well maybe not all of them, but quite a few). When I saw that, I began to cry inside........because nobody cared about what problems he was having because they didn't know him. Some of them were even video taping expecting him to jump. Now I understand that they couldn't do anything about the situation, nor could I, cuz everything was out of our hands........but that doesn't mean that you have to participate in cruel behaviour.......This is one example of HATE that i was talking about......it's not the hate that is directed towards someone, but it's the hate of not caring about another persons life. In other words, it's not love. Once again, it's little things like that which change my thinking. If you wonder how I converted and changed my belief???? It's not because I was brainwashed or suckered in by the church.........I converted because I was convinced by the rest of this world that what I believe in is true.....it had nothing to do with knowledge. Like I said......I can honestly say that i'm not a smart person,( I don't know anything about cars, sports, history, religion etc...)
A couple of people on here stated that "I shouldn't be trying to push them into what I believe". But you have to understand, I'm not pushing anyone to believe in what I believe in. I know everyone has their own choice and I respect that completely. This is a forum, I created a topic for people to talk about. If I feel offended in one of these things, I just wouldn't get involved in it. It's actually the people on here who are not respecting what I believe and why I believe it but it's all good, cuz I just want you to convince me even more:P | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:50:54 PM | "because I see how much people hold onto hate"
First of all, I don't hate you. I don't even know you. I do detest certain types of behaviour though, and one of them is blustering and braying adamantly over something that is fallacious. If you don't know, and you are just learning, then why the initial attitude? From Ludwig Wittgenstein it's acceptable. The man had a mind like a steel trap, and earned the right to be adamant. From Forest Gump- not so much. Of course that's a bad analogy, because what was so endearing about Forest Gump was his humility, something wholly lacking from post 17.
"It's actually the people on here who are not respecting what I believe"
I am not concerned with what you believe. I never go on the forum unprovoked and attack beliefs that are not my own. I will correct logical fallacies and misstatments of fact though. I never even attacked your beliefs in my response. I attacked your overweening attitude in combination with your blatant fallacies. Did I ever say that your personal spiritual beliefs were stupid? I did not. My tone was merely a response to the overweening attitude. You will find my corrections far more amiable if you curb that. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 7:55:10 PM | Why do I feel like I am watching Forest Gump?
By the way I loved Forest. It is like a blind man that has exceptional hearing. Moreno1982 what you lack in intelligence you more than make up for in heart. Ignorance is bliss in many cases. When it comes to religion it is a trait that will serve you well.
Fellow posters...this is not about logic it is about resolve. He has resolved himself to believe in something that gives his mind and heart peace...peace be with you Moreno1982. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:00:33 PM | "Fellow posters...this is not about logic it is about resolve."
Oh, but he was the one to enter the arena of logic. When you loudly proclaim a list of facts supposed to prove your faith, then you are opening the logic door. Had he simply said what you just said from the beginning, I would not have even posted. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 63 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:02:44 PM |
because I see how much people hold onto hate......
No hate here, my repies to your list were honest and concise, nothing less nothing more.
Logic is not a weapon, it is a tool. If you don't understand what some of the things mean, ie: fallacies
Google them, understanding logic helps one reason, BTW, according to logic, you can't disprove the concept of a "God".
That in and of itself should get you hooked.
Like I said......I can honestly say that i'm not a smart person
I don't believe that, you are smart enough to retract something when a valid argument is made, ...a lot of people don't "know" when they should do that.
I'm not pushing anyone to believe in what I believe in.
No, you aren't, ....
It's actually the people on here who are not respecting what I believe
Not necessarily, .....just because somebody argues with your reasoning? That's not the same as not respecting your beliefs, ...not when you've asked for "reasons" that are counter to your arguments.
and why I believe
Ah, but asking people to believe fallacy is dishonest, that is disrespectful to them. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:12:50 PM | Wonkavision
Yes you are right he was presenting the current facts he has at the for front of his mind to validate his religion.
You are not dealing with a person who has gained factual knowledge and came to a logical conclusion. You are having a discussion with a man that has decided to believe in something and grabs any and all possible "facts" to gain validity to his belief he has chosen.
His logic...what harm will it do him or anyone to believe in god? Does the bible not promote an emotionally healthy lifestyle? Why would someone not believe in something that does a mind good?
That is really the argument he has presented to us. Truthfully it is like arguing with a child about wheather or not there is a Santa Clause. Consider the source. Honestly if we were to be sucessful in making him reconsider his logic it would probably do him more harm than good.
This is not Elbert Einstein you are dealing with it is Forest Gump. Yes you are right about everything you say but does it really matter. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:31:35 PM | Granted I didn't read anything but the OP....
BUT
If I were going to go only on the question in the subject line, I would have to say "which God?" ...there are a lot you know.
Now, talking about the Christian God, the one in the wonderful work of fiction called the bible.
I don't believe in that "God" because there are too many contradictions, it was a book written by men about things they were interpretting without any scientific value. Let's not forget it was this that caused those who we now called scientists, to be imprisoned, excommunicated, or sentenced to death because of heresy. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:35:28 PM | "This is not Elbert Einstein you are dealing with it is Forest Gump. Yes you are right about everything you say but does it really matter."
I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone is hopeless. I doubt he's actually retarded, and I would be doing him a disservice to assume he is. And Late makes a good point that the existence of god is neither logically deducible or empirically emergent, so his non-existence is no more true in logical terms. Either position is unprovable. If we can get through to him that he would benefit, even in his own faith, by learning a little logic and critical reasoning skills, then that's enough for me. Even if he only changes his tone to one of inquisitiveness that would be a positive thing for him. There's nothing wrong at all with being ignorant. We're all ignorant of something. There is something very wrong with being uninterested in learning. There are many people here who would be happy to help him improve his reasoning skills so long as he actually listens to what they say. So, yes, it does matter. Look at it this way- I bodybuild, so I'll use it as an analogy. I wasn't born muscular; it took work and vigilance. The mind is no different. The more you read, reason, create etc., the better you get at it. Nobody is born with a muscular, toned mind; they may have certain lucky predispositions, such as perfect pitch or photographic memory, but everyone is capable of logical and abstract reasoning. It is a matter of practice. I just don't buy this notion that intelligence is innate. He may just walk away with something from being excoriated. Some times a little cold water is the best way to alert someone. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:48:47 PM | Well here is logic for you..................We have 2 eyes to see, 2 legs to be able to walk 2 hands to be able to do things with, 2 ears to hear, a voice to be able to speak, a brain to be able to think and a heart that is the core of anatomy. There is a form of living on this planet which we would not be able to survive on any other planet the way we do here.......not without technology. We have food growing from ground and trees to eat to survive, we have water to drink to survive. This is logic and these are things we take for granted to say that we did it all ourselves. Men have a penis and women have vaginas to produce our seeds to create another lifeform like ourselves.....just like all other creatures on this Earth. Is that not enough to believe?? if it's not then what does it take?? Once again.......I want you to understand that i'm not pushing anyone to believe anything....I just wanna know what people are about and why? And I'm including myself as well when i ask that question.
Lady, you ask which God???? whether it is the God Buddhists believe or the God christians believe or the God muslims believe......................It's only one God. He's not called a christian God, or a Buddhist God or a Muslim God. He's God. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:49:38 PM | Now, talking about the Christian God, the one in the wonderful work of fiction called the bible.
I don't believe in that "God" because there are too many contradictions, it was a book written by men about things they were interpretting without any scientific value. Let's not forget it was this that caused those who we now called scientists, to be imprisoned, excommunicated, or sentenced to death because of heresy.
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I can`t take people serious who talk about the bible as fallacy and every other book of religion as fact. Like where do you get off? | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 8:56:00 PM | Wonka
You are exactly right about what you say.......Nobody was born to do something, they have to work hard to learn more about it. But at the same time......If you bodybuild, and people tell you that steroids are the best way to go...........will you choose that way??? you listened to them, BUT YOUR HEART TELLS YOU NO. You wanna do it the right way..........and what's the right way??? To work out every day or every second day. Now to become good at what I want to do.........I have to work hard at reading the Bible....YES.....but of course I'm gonna reject what some people say.........just as you reject to those people who offered you steroids because you know it's not good for you. If you accept those roids, then you would be ruining everything you worked hard for.....maybe not on the outside, but on the inside you would be. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 70 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 9:01:48 PM | Consider the source.
Speaking of fallacy, this is one of the worst when used in this context.
A perfect example of argumentum ad hominum
As for "Elbert or Forest"?
See msg. 52
....just like all other creatures on this Earth. Is that not enough to believe??
To believe in a deity?
Only if you exclude the observable, ....this requires "blinders".
Which, is a workable definition of the word "Faith"
This thread topic has the word "Reason", different ball o' wax.
....just as you reject to those people who offered you steroids because you know it's not good for you. If you accept those roids, then you would be ruining everything you worked hard for.....maybe not on the outside, but on the inside you would be.
Actually, this analogy fits better conversely to what you intended.
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 9:05:14 PM | | By the way.........when I was presenting those facts, I was going on hearsay..........BUT..........I did learn some things what people had told me on here and I will definately keep that in mind. It did not change my way of thinking though, it just changed my approach of talking to people.:P.....(in other words, i'll research before i speak:P) | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 9:09:16 PM | Moreno, hey you are not alone out there. There are a lot of people who take the bible (including the creation story in Genesis) very literally.. They also take these things as "facts"..  | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 9:22:43 PM | "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
I'm curious as to why you feel the need to justify your beleifs to those who according to your own belief can not accept "the truth" without the help of the Holy Spirit. Your "facts" are not going to help you.
Perhaps in your third year of being a christian you will learn about something called "conviction of the Holy Spirit". This is where your job as an evangelical christian is to share what you know and let the Holy Spirit do the convincing. Your facts will fail...your arguments will fall short. If the Father(God) through the Holy Spirit seeks to touch someones life and convict (convince) them of "the truth" then He might use you to do so...or he might use a mule..or a rooster...or perhaps an athiest. Your job is to pray and seek the will of the Father and then do what He asks you to do. Your job is not to "save" the planet. God doesn't need your help...just your obedience. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/24/2006 10:09:53 PM | "...Is that not enough to believe??"
This post is a circular argument. The existence of the universe is only evidence of the existence of the universe. It no more proves the existence of God than it does any other conceivable theory of universal origin. Trust me when I tell you that you can't prove the existence or non-existence of God using logic and empirical observation. It is a matter of personal philosophy. Read post 75 above; it is well stated.
"I have to work hard at reading the Bible....YES.....but of course I'm gonna reject what some people say.........just as you reject to those people who offered you steroids because you know it's not good for you."
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you comparing knowledge to steroids? I encourage you to study the bible, sure, but not to the exclusion of all other literature. Don't ignore knowledge because you think it threatens your faith. If your faith is strong, it shouldn't matter. You may just find that it doesn't threaten your faith at all, and you were operating under a misconception. If you believe in God, then I can't see how you would be doing him anything but a disservice to ignore the knowledge he chooses to reveal. Do you think he doesn't reveal himself anywhere but in the bible? I have no desire to convince you that God doesn't exist; only to convince you to increase your knowledge. | |
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