|
|
|
|
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/26/2006 11:35:43 PM | by the way.........how do you highlight a sentence???
If there were a God, I personally feel that he would not have left something as important as salvation, and the paths to get there, in the hands of men who are by nature evil and corrupt.
Just to avoid misunderstanding.....this was by Anthony and not myself
You will find a link to the HTML TAG instructions and rules, below.
Forum Posting Guidelines
And here, please note the rules for "Off-Topic", and "Sequential Posting"
Forum Rules - Specific
Forum Moderator | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 2:26:44 AM | Moreno, I understand what you are saying about a book that spoke to you and related to your life. For me that book was the Tao te Ching. Note that I do not currently consider myself a Taoist. I have some Taoist leanings but I do not feel I quite fit that mindset completely.
I am glad you found a religion that works for you. Now please take the advice that I and others have given you and learn more about it. You already know you like the book and that it has helped you in your life. Finish reading it and then study the verses. Learn some critical thinking skills and apply them so that you can develop your own interpretation instead of just believing what another human tells you to believe. Become the most knowledgable Christian you can be. | |
|
| |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 9:10:52 AM | Infornography,
Thanks, and believe me, those are my intentions; to learn more and be the most knowledgable Christian. BUT, as I said, I have been viewing this world from a third person perspective. I noticed though that the more knowledge someone has (I'm not sure if it's in the Christian faith alone, i doubt it), the more pride they have. But even the most knowledgable person can be wrong from time to time. I do not want to learn from another human being. Humans are humans and we all make mistakes........I realized never to obtain knowledge from another person BECAUSE there is always some misleading information. (ie about the rib bone that i was talking about earlier......that came from a Christian man who I use to work with).
I have a question because once again, I am limited on what I know of my faith, but in the process of learning, I would like to learn more about other faiths. Does the Tao te Ching have an explanation for EVERYTHING in this world????......(whether you believe in those explanations or not....try to leave the bias out of the question) | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 9:13:05 AM | I realized never to obtain knowledge from another person BECAUSE there is always some misleading information. (ie about the rib bone that i was talking about earlier......that came from a Christian man who I use to work with).
I realized to obtain information from the Bible, not people. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 9:22:41 AM | I noticed though that the more knowledge someone has, the more pride they have.
I think it is people with a "little" knowledge who take too much pride in their acheivements. While as you Really learn more and more, you come to realize how little you do know.
And, No I don't think the Tao, or any religion has the answer for EVERYTHING. And One man's Answer is another Man's Question. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 10:12:46 AM | TREW
I agree on what you say about the concept of knowledge. However, you shouldn't have to learn more to realize how little you actually do know. People should realize how little they know period. To avoid confusion, when I say people, I include myself. I never omit myself from the things I talk about, because I am certainly no better than someone of another culture, race, faith, religion etc........The Bible states to let him who judges others be judged by Me.....not exact quote.
With regards to no religion having the answer for EVERYTHING in life. The Bible does have all the answers to life.......(they can be answers that another person wouldn't accept or believe, but nevertheless they are still answers that the believer believes.)
One man's Answer is another Man's question is absolutely right........because people don't want to accept that there is A truth in this world, so therefore they want to create their own truth, or avoid it. Has a Theologist ever put their faith in the Bible?? Possibly, but not certainly, NO, because people want to find out truth on their own, they can't accept what is given to them....and I think that that's great ..........People wanna do things the way they wanna do them....it's human nature | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 12:21:53 PM | | I admire and respect those who are believers in God. The majority of my family are firm believers; and, I myself was a beliver for many years. However, the older I get and the more questions I ask and the more scientific in my thinking that I become, my steadfast belief in a God has changed dreamatically. I basically come down to the same position: There is absolutely no proof for or against the existence of a God. Many people hold the Bible up as being proof of God's being and his word, but to me it is a book - a collection of stories, parables, tales, e.t.c - that has a very suspect and questionable origin. I may be wrong, totally wrong; but I can't wholeheartedly believe in something that I can't see or touch or verify in some way, shape or form. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 12:44:31 PM | Ok I understand.........there is no proof of the existence of a God.....so therefore IF there is no God, there is no Devil, there is no heaven, there is no hell, there is no such thing as miracles, there are no such thing as curses, there is no such thing as "feeding the flesh", there is no such thing as temptation, there is no such thing as sinners, there is no such thing as salvation or no such thing as sin for that matter. So....it's all just a waste of time when I could really be doing something else with my life........something that I would probably get more satisfaction everyday
EVERYTHING is bound to be questioned in this world............I know a woman who put her child up for adoption when she was 18 ONLY because everyone in her family was telling her to do so; saying that it would be the best thing for the child..............So she did just that thinking it was a good idea.........After she did it, her family got upset at her for doing it. figure that out???? The human behaviour amazes me soooooo much. Never satisfied or complete.....always questioning.....always wanting more....never satisfied with what is given to us.......whether it be material things, or whether it be about "what the truth is in this world".
I don't have proof.....and as i said before, I didn't know any facts going into my belief. I see with my eyes and I hear with my ears what people say and people do (including myself) | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 12:58:46 PM | | Maybe there is no purpose to life. Does there have to be? Does everything necessarily have to mean something? Maybe we are no differen't from any other animal that walks the earth. You are born, you live, you die. Maybe that's it! Would your life change drastically if there was no heaven or God or afterlife? You would still breathe, you would still eat, the sun would still shine, the moon would shine, Fall would turn into Winter, e.t.c. Would your favorite food no longer taste good if you didn't believe in God the next time you sat down to eat? Maybe people would become more chaotic and animalistic in their actions and desires if there was no belief in God- and no threat of hell fire - but that's hard to believe considering how corrupt and evil the world is already. It just seems that alot of humans seem to have a need to believe in a father figure that is looking out for them and who will reward them in the next life. What about this life? Why can't this present life be the center of everything? Maybe we are no differen't than mice, or sheep, or fish; we are born, we experience, we live, then we die. It's possible that human beings -through arrogance - have assumed that we must be extra special; that we as humans have an innate right to something bigger and better than all of the other animals and creatures in the world; that we are more special, more deserving and entitled to some great, jubilant reward in the next life. Maybe that is true; maybe not. Just some questions and idea to ponder. | |
|
| |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 2:04:55 PM | Sky,
I apologize for not responding.....I'm trying to read this whole forum thingy and it's my first time on here, so i had to skip back a ways to see what you were talking about. Some of these discussions go by sooo fast.
Anways, to answer ur question in msg 12.....and i'm sure there are many others u have...just point them out...... the Bible doesn't comdemn the human race.....it condems the nature of man.....The one thing God cannot change about man is man's will (choice). How many millions of deaths have there been in Holy Wars? you ask??? That goes back to what I just said, the human behaviour(as i said the last sentence, the nature of man). If that's what someones belief teaches (which i'm not entirely sure what other beliefs teach) then they can choose that belief. U know......a police officer can be a believer in God, even if he HAD to shoot someone and kill him, someone who was drafted into the army and had to go to war to kill; that person can still be a believer in God. You see, your right, this world is controlled by man here on earth,.....The Bible even says that there will be higher powers that govern the world, kings, priests, commanders, whatever authority you may think of. There has to be.....but once again....God knows the heart. The Bible states that there is NO MAN greater than He is. If you join the army because you think you are a killing machine then God knows that...If you join because of being forced and has no satisfaction of hurting someone else , then God knows that. You see, we can't justify what we do, only He can justify what we do. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 2:27:01 PM | Sky
Now i'm responding to message 28. You are right about humankind about being proud and naive(I must always keep adding that I'm referring to myself)....2 of many human behaviours. Personally, I'm proud because I know the truth, not because I know all the answers, because that is a point where NOBODY can obtain. You say that religion cannot be taken and read in the sense of it being truth........well that applies to someone who doesn't believe in what the Bible says....it doesn't apply to me because I see it as the truth. Everybody is different, and once again, everyone has choice.
If someone needs something more than faith .......perhaps money or something of some other kind that you feel you need in order to believe. How many rich people put their faith in God??? once again, God knows the heart (whether someone believes in God or not). He knows why people believe in Him, so what difference does it make if you have a million dollars, THEN you believe in God, because then you are just wasting your time. For the record, I was only using money as an example.
The Bible states for man not to worry. He says to look at the birds and other creatures in this world, they all have food and shelter and survive. Man is the same way.......NOT A DIRECT QUOTE.......but I can find it if i had the Bible handy to me right now:P | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 2:37:11 PM | Hi Anthony. I enjoyed reading your post about how there is no proof for or against God. You may be comfortable with that out come or understanding and if you are than that's cool. If your not and your still up for the challenge I would encourage you to continue seeking out the evidence. Many people have gone before us trying to prove or disprove a God or religion and they have left alot of their research behind. Perhaps following some of their leads will help you to continuie finding some of the answers that you have. Unfortunately, there is no formula that will guarantee you will find the answers that is widely excepted. But I will encourage you by saying the God of the Bible says that if you seek me with all your heart, soul and mind that you will find him. Perhaps not today or tomorrow, but it sounds to me like a promise worth checking out. One guy set out to disproce Christianity and he ended up finding the God of the Bible. His journey has been frustrating and exciting. Out of his seeking he found what he was looking for and ended up writting a book called a case for Christ and a case for Faith, Lee Stobel. This is one expample and I am sure that there are many like Lee who have set out seeking truth and ended up finding it. I am sure that would be the case for other faiths, I am just unaware of any specific books or authors to refer. But I figure we are here for awhile, might as well try and determine if there is purpose to this life or a future after this life time. All the best to you.  | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 3:02:34 PM | Moreno1982 asks:
Does the Tao te Ching have an explanation for EVERYTHING in this world?
Yes, and no. Yes, everything derives from Tao. No, in that Tao is unexplainable - it just is.
What I like about the Taoist approach (and the Buddhist approach is very similar, in my mind) is that it does not try to explain the unexplainable, leaving it as a mystery. Nor does Taoism anthropomorphize what IS by invoking a deity - it leaves origins as a mystery. Really, it isn't important - all that matters is living in accordance with the natural principles of Tao. Also, Taoism is fully compatible with knowledge, such as science. It can easily accept whatever we learn about the universe and life without contradictions or worries about dogma. Finally, while compatible with science, it does not give it any more or less value than direct perception of reality.
Let me note that the religious form of Taoism has some rather strange ideas and practices, as do most religions, but the underlying philosophical basis of Taoism is very simple and straightforward, but can take a lifetime to comprehend, just as in Buddhism it can take a lifetime to reach enlightenment, and it may never occur. | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 141 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 3:07:38 PM | it can take a lifetime to reach enlightenment, and it may never occur.
Equally applicable to any faith or non-faith system.
It's funny how this, like any of the "reasons", for or against; fails to place trust in faith over trust in the pragmatic, - and vice versa.
It must then, ...be true. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 4:27:03 PM |
fails to place trust in faith over trust in the pragmatic, - and vice versa.
For me I trust the pragmatic while having faith in faith..Therefore I don't get all out of shape when some new scientific finding/theory comes along. Where I think the problem lies is having faith in dogma..now catma is another topic altogether. | |
|
| |
| |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/27/2006 9:15:01 PM | k...*too much reading* i've stopped on the first page =P
i think people don't believe in God because they chose to reject it. *well duh pnayplayr*...hehehehehe. but i mean, i THINK, all they see are the *do*s and *don't*s of the religion. they don't wanna *answer* to anything and have to explain themselves to anyone [as i've caught it on some1's reply here]. basically...ignoring the instructions of a better living.
isn't that it?
i mean if you think about it. if one agrees that doing such and such really isn't a "bad" thing...then why would they need to go againts God [or not believe it] just so that they can justify themselves and say it's not againts any *law*.
also, i think people don't believe in God because of that PRIDE [as moreno have stated]. they don't like the idea that they're dependent on *anybody* [having faith in Him].
then there are those, *i don't see...hence i don't believe*. we don't see our brains, yet because of scientific explanation...we "know" we have one. we don't see God, yet why aren't *miracles* being accepted as proofs?
*kay...maybe i should continue on reading further back*... | |
|
late™
|
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 146 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/28/2006 1:54:51 AM | i THINK, all they see are the *do*s and *don't*s of the religion. they don't wanna *answer* to anything and have to explain themselves to anyone [as i've caught it on some1's reply here]. basically...ignoring the instructions of a better living.
isn't that it?
I am not a sociopath, I have a conscience.
I don't require fear of divine retribution to keep me from:
1) doing harm to others
I avoid doing harm because it's wrong, I have learned this independant of having any faith in an organized theology.
Nor do do I need the promise of reward to:
2) do for others, to their benefit.
I do it because it's right to do so, I have learned this independant of having any faith in an organized theology.
...ignoring the instructions of a better living.
There is no arbitrary source of instruction, vis a vis, better living ...there are many, some are theological in nature, some aren't
I am also not concerned what others believe, ......unless their faith comes in conflict of 1 and 2 because of the motivations, however derivative ....of the fear and greed inherent in being motivated by threat and promise.
I have witnessed some people's fear of divine retribution and self-interest of the promise of eternal reward, and seen them harm others, seen them ignore the suffering of others while doing nothing, and I've watched them revel in the harm and suffering of human beings, and bend this lack of basic human dignity, ....to the agenda of their faith. For some, their divine books of instruction and their vocal devotion to the words they interpret from them, produce the righteous hubris, and elitist entitlement from the arrogance of "being" blessed by their creator, just because their interpretation can be the only correct one.
Faith makes this a must, for some.
After all, they may doubt, but the can't doubt their faith, even if it's harming others through the intolerance of self-righteousness, or indifference of suffering of others, ...just because the others, aren't of the same faith, or subscribe to their personal interpretation of the "instructions", or worse, ....are skeptical of the validity of the actions that their faith commands them to take.
So, proffesing faith in a deity doesn't always ensure better living, nor does a more pragmatic view of reality always preclude it.
It can be seen that if only your deity can absolve you, you aren't accountable to your fellow man. I don't need absolution to treat people well out of basic human dignity, and for this I am ultimately responsible for my actions, ...no last minute forgiveness from an invisible puppet master, ....bad is bad = don't do bad, bad is always bad.
also, i think people don't believe in God because of that PRIDE [as moreno have stated]. they don't like the idea that they're dependent on *anybody*
I like the idea that we are all inter-dependent on each other, and responsible and accountable to ourselves AND each other.
So, nice little speech, ...but, sorry, no .....not buyin' it.
I can have my own reasons for being skeptical of what you think reality is, so please, I can't speak for others but, ....don't project on me, m'kay?
yet why aren't *miracles* being accepted as proofs?
I will if they meet the criteria of proof, beyond any doubt or it's opposite, faith. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/28/2006 11:06:53 AM | late...
- i have a friend who wouldn't believe in God because of the *do*s and *don't*s. i guess he's the only one in that category as to why he choose not to believe in God.
- *believing* out of fear or for a promise? ...i don't know about other kids...but i grew up fearing my parents. it wasn't always *oh jolly! i love you mom and dad! i followed their instructions out of respect...and YES fear. as i grow older, i'm learning more and more things and i'm realizing that their aim IS to give me a better way of life. i'm starting to follow "rules" because i now know the purpose of this and that. now i do things for them because i love them...not because i'm afraid of them.
- what do you mean by no artirary source of instructions for better living? read the Bible, if their instructions does not promote better living in any manner...then...then i think you're misunderstanding it overall =P
- you said "I have witnessed some people's fear of divine retribution and self-interest of the promise of eternal reward, and seen them harm others, seen them ignore the suffering of others while doing nothing". that's the thing! people who don't believe in God or religion looks at those who do and picks on them. we're humans too! we do have our mistakes...that's why we learn more about becoming a better person. no, we'll never be perfect, but atleast we're trying to be *better*...to serve God and others. for some reason, people perceive us to be someone who's supposed to be all holy. if one is an atheist, then it's okay to fall and make mistakes. is that it? as you've said bad = bad...but for some reason, bad = BADDDDDD when a *Christ follower* commits them.
- yes, we are interdependent of each other as well. though, some people have actually said they don't recognize a God because they feel no need to call upon *anyone*.
...thank you late for your input.
my remark wasn't to generalize those who does not believe in God. it's just some views that i've perceived...replying to the topic as to *why not*. i do not limit the *reasons* to my list =) | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/28/2006 3:50:18 PM |
I don't require fear of divine retribution to keep me from:
1) doing harm to others
I avoid doing harm because it's wrong, I have learned this independant of having any faith in an organized theology.
.
Most people don’t require fear of divine retribution to keep them from doing harm to others because MOST of us are capable of understanding that because of our conscience. You may have not done PHYSICAL harm to someone, but I can put my life on the line and say that we have all hurt someone in one way or another in our lifetime, whether it be physical harm or emotional harm. Not to mention, the harm that we do to ourselves which includes but is not limited to worries/stress, depression, lust, addiction, perhaps not even addiction but the usage of substances consumed in this world that creates harm to our bodies.
Nor do do I need the promise of reward to:
2) do for others, to their benefit.
I do it because it's right to do so, I have learned this independant of having any faith in an organized theology
Who says it is right to do so?? Is it the norm?? Is it the law?? Is it passed tradition?? I think it would have to be greater than that, because it is a worldly characteristic.
If people of the same thinking do things because it is right to do so, therefore there should be no such thing as doing wrong because we know it is wrong to do such things.
It’s not about KNOWING whether something is right or wrong. 100% of people KNOW what is right and wrong. A tiny tiny percentage of that 100% ACT on what they KNOW. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/28/2006 3:52:28 PM | pnayplayr, honestly, every atheist and agnostic I know doesn't believe in GOD because there is a complete and total lack of evidence for his existance. It has nothing to do with any of the other things you mentioned.
There may be some people who think that way but in my experience they are in the vast minority.
Honestly, I probably live a cleaner more sinfree life than the majority of Christians. The reason is that I live very ethically and morally even though I lack faith. Yes the Bible spells forth many rules that do lead to better living. Some people need to be told this and have the offer of eternal life in heaven to stick to it as best they can. Others do not.
Prove to me a miracle happened without scientific explanation and I will believe a miracle occured. As it is, none has ever been proven to occur. Furthermore if one was ever proven to occur this would be proof AGAINST the Christian God, as it would negate the need for faith and therefore free will. Proof of God's existance is proof against God's existance. God cannot be proven or disproven, hence disbelief. | |
|
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/28/2006 4:03:41 PM | Most people don’t require fear of divine retribution to keep them from doing harm to others because MOST of us are capable of understanding that because of our conscience. You may have not done PHYSICAL harm to someone, but I can put my life on the line and say that we have all hurt someone in one way or another in our lifetime, whether it be physical harm or emotional harm. Not to mention, the harm that we do to ourselves which includes but is not limited to worries/stress, depression, lust, addiction, perhaps not even addiction but the usage of substances consumed in this world that creates harm to our bodies.
I fail to see how this in any way applies to the principles stated. What he was talking about was intent. It is very dificult to control results but intent is what we control in our lives. As long as it is not your intent to harm others you will be benefitting yourself and them in this respect.
Doing what is right is right because it benefits society as a whole. Furthermore doing good things for yourself and others tend to come back and benefit you more because it improves trust and communication between yourself and others. If you are always looking out for number one then number one is the only one you will ever be able to count on when you need help. If you are looking out for your friends then your friends will be there for you as well. If you are looking out for society as a whole then help may come from some surprising sources.
Ethical behavior does not require faith to explain it. Ethical behavior makes its own rewards here on this planet. Those who understand this benefit from it.
It’s not about KNOWING whether something is right or wrong. 100% of people KNOW what is right and wrong. A tiny tiny percentage of that 100% ACT on what they KNOW.
I disagree with 100% of this statement. There are many people who have problems understanding wrong and right. Many have mental illnesses that prevent this distinction.
As for a tiny tiny percentage acting on their knowledge of wrong and right, that is a very very cynical statement and one I personally do not share. Everyone will falter every now and then but I would say the vast majority will behave according to their understanding of wrong and right the vast majority of the time. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
