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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 12:50:11 AM | Okay, I am not going back through all the pages of the thread (yet), but I'll respond to the OP.
First off, I have few reasons NOT to believe in your god, other than that mine satisfy my religious needs. Some of the others, I'll explain.
Here is something to think about if you don't believe in God. It's either something a person can accept or not but the one thing i don't understand is "WHAT HARM CAN COME OUT OF IT IF YOU DO ACCEPT IT??? WHAT HARM CAN POSSIBLY COME FROM BEING GUIDED BY INSTRUCTION OF THE BIBLE???
Yes, one can accept or not. This should suffice, but there are folks who find it necessary to ask the rest of these questions. Some of them are not satisfied that others have their reasons and tend to push. What harm can come from being guided by the Bible? Little enough if one follows only the words of Jesus in the New Testament, but history bears its own testimony as to what harm can befall those who insist on following the myriad interpretations that have been proffered for the rest.
It's like this, someone offers you something useful that you can use in ur life (ie TV, computer, etc.) and you don't accept the offer......but he tells you that if you don't take it, then he is only going to throw it away. What is the harm in taking something useful that you could use?? or maybe even someone you know can use??
I've been offered something useful like that, in the form of the Bible and the love of Jesus Christ. I've accepted. Yay me. The unfortunate part is when it's not these things that are offered, but the judgment of men, based on the Bible, and the arrogance of some in pronouncing doom and desolation on those who do not accept. See, the way it's been presented here is fine. However, there are those who prefer to offer not something useful, like a computer or a TV, but more like something essential, necessary, like an immunisation. Which would also be fine, if it weren't portrayed as the only cure for something you did to yourself, or that was your problem, because the provider of the vaccine insisted you pay with your soul. It's not someone giving you something if it's being forced on you. And it's not something "you can use" if it's something the person insisting you take it says you can't properly function (in their world, I suppose) without. Dig?
What is truth?? Truth comes from the heart, and not from the knowledge.
What is truth? Good question. If one does not know what it is, how does one know its nature or from whence it comes?
This is how I first understood that God existed>>>>I saw how perfect this world is and how complex everything is in life...so complex that even the people in this world can't even figure everything out about it..........This is how I learned to believe in God
Whereas there are those among us who see what appear to be imperfections, or who see other explanations for the apparent perfection there is.
Once i accepted that he did exist, I then learned the truth about what is written in the Bible and I saw how it applied to my life...............and everyone elses lives.
Sound like indoctrination to me.
I understand when people say they don't want to accept truth, because I was one of those people. Everybody has their own choice, but I can honestly say that i'm glad I made the right choice.
Of course, there are plenty of people who choose not to accept what you do as "truth," but how many of them really insist that they'd rather not accept *truth*? Beyond that, I'm glad you've made a choice, as well. The important thing to bear in mind is that, while not everyone has made the same choice, how does one assert that anyone has made the "right" or "wrong" choice? | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 12:56:58 AM | Whew ! Made it through all eight pages or so.
Define this "God" that so many "Christians" want me to believe in. The answer is usually "the God that is depicted in the Bible". Well, which God is that? The wrathful, vengeful one, or the mild version in human form in the New Testament? A human God, with recognizable human traits and foibles, or a mysterious Father figure, or an ethereal aura?
You can even make a case for a non-theistic entity from the Bible: many examples abound: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light, no one enters the Kingdom of Heaven except by me" I can easily see as a godless metaphor, and parallels can be drawn with the Vedic scriptures, as in, "I Am That", "I" referring to-- (pick your replacement for the overloaded, misunderstood, abused, and highly charged word "God")-- eternal spirit, consciousness, truth, wholeness, oneness, divinity, essence, universal intelligence....
So before any discussion of a "belief" is entertained, it must be clear who or what we are supposed to be believing in.
I believe Jesus existed. I believe he was probably a highly spiritually in-tune kind o' guy. I believe that, like others of a particularly highly-realized spiritual nature, he inevitably attracted lots of curious folk who were at sea spiritually, and they became enamoured of him. I believe the linkage of city politics with Christianity through Constantine helped both to dip their spoons into the golden "communication plate", and there was an incentive to keep a "good thing going".
I believe Jesus pointed to a spiritual reality that has absolutely nothing to do with the moldy exogenous and exoteric scaffolding of organized religion (perhaps Jesus would even appreciate the carpentry analogy). | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 11:22:56 AM | | Everything hinges on the Bible though. All this belief in the Christian God and everything having to do with salvation and the afterlife, e.t.c. hinges on all believers accepting that the Bible is accurate and that it is truly the "Word of God"! I just can't seem to accept that blindly. What if the bible is just a collection of stories and observations and tales that were made by various people throughout the years? What if it has nothing to do with a God? What if it is filled with superstitions and fantasies? I mean, how can you believe in something that strongly when in fact you just don't know. The origins of the bible, who the authors of the bible really were, whether the bible as we know it today has been preserved in it's natural state or whether it's been adulterated, changed, or corrupted in any way? Anything that man puts his hands on can be corrupted? Obviously, greed, jealousy, personal ambition, e.t.c were things that humans dealt with in biblical times as they are now. So, assuming that the bible is the Word of God, how can we be sure that certain people with certain agendas or desires didn't alter, change or twist various parts of the bible to fit their ideas, their agendas or their desires? I mean, why should we assume that the bible as we know it today is correct or is in its natural state? | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 11:58:13 AM |
Years ago, I was at a friends place, he had just rented out a room to a young kid. The kid was in the kitchen, making Kraft Dinner macaroni and cheese, he had the pot on the stove, and the pasta in the pot, the element on "high", and no water........ it was just starting to burn, when I walked in. I looked at the stove, then the kid, ........he said, "what, ......do I have it on too high?"
Would he have avoided this by reading the bible
Good point. If life is about making KD, then I can honestly tell you NO, don't turn to the bible. Those are things we learn IN our life but not ABOUT LIFE.
We do not need the material elements in this life that we(man) created, only those of what God created in order to survive. Did man create water?? Did man create food?? Yes man works to produce food, of course, but had not created it. If you think about it, there are people who live on the streets who continue to survive. Do you think we honestly NEED money to survive this world?? Do we NEED a car in order to survive?? Do we NEED a house to survive??(Yes we do need shelter, shelter can mean many things besides a house). Do we NEED that cell phone we bought yesterday???Alot of people will say yes we NEED them because of the economy we live in. But do we really truly truly truly NEED them?? | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 12:20:04 PM |
I believe Jesus pointed to a spiritual reality that has absolutely nothing to do with the moldy exogenous and exoteric scaffolding of organized religion (perhaps Jesus would even appreciate the carpentry analogy).
Whatever other Christians may want to portray what they think is correct, they may do so. I personally am not involved in what someone may call "organized religion". I do go to church yes. The pastor at my church doesn't support people going to church to make friends, to look for girls, to go because of they were brought up in a christian family or any other personal reason someone may have. I don't do things according to what other people do them(I say I because I can't speak for everyone else, I can't see a persons heart, only God can). I do things according to what the bible teaches. I have listened to some people who I associate with and heard what they have to say why christianity is the right way. People tend to have in their own mind what christianity is but they have never read the bible.....A person cannot know COMPLETELY what christianity is until they do read the Bible.
I heard of a story a while back in Toronto how there was a so called "christian" who was protesting against homosexuals and committing physical acts against them. I am not bringing the topic of homosexuality up, because everyone has a choice. My point is that this man called himself a "christian" and thought he was doing the right thing by protesting in the manner which he did. It is people like that who have misconceptions of the christian belief.
It's too bad, because I understand why most people don't want to believe in God because of those people out there who make bad impressions of what religion is about. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 12:37:57 PM | | Lol... A task for you Moreno. If you, take off your man produced clothes...all of them...now walk out into the street. There is a nice hollow log out in the woods, perfect for a natural shelter (u can's sleep in a man made shop doorway) You can eat bugs and other natural goodies in the woods if u get peckish (u can't make a man made spear to kill a dear). U can drink the clear waters of your local stream to quench ure thirst. If u get cold, u can rap up warm in some moss.... I truely, truely, truely wouldn't give you a week to survive. Oh... and u can bring your Bible along too. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 1:03:49 PM | "A person cannot know COMPLETELY what Christianity is until they do read the bible"..
Good one, moreno. You've professed to not having finished the Bible, and I've read it over thirty years ago.
The highlighting of "COMPLETELY", along with the stock phrase I often hear,-- "I believe in every word of the Bible"--, is puzzling to me. Do others, upon reading a book, proclaim often that every word of a book is true? But I guess that's what "taken as the gospel truth" means. It automatically sets up an either/or rejection or defense on the part of the reader. I don't subscribe to those absolutes, but there's a lot of excellent poetry in that compendium. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 1:33:50 PM |
We do not need the material elements in this life that we(man) created, only those of what God created in order to survive. Did man create water?? Did man create food?? Yes man works to produce food, of course, but had not created it. If you think about it, there are people who live on the streets who continue to survive. Do you think we honestly NEED money to survive this world?? Do we NEED a car in order to survive?? Do we NEED a house to survive??(Yes we do need shelter, shelter can mean many things besides a house). Do we NEED that cell phone we bought yesterday???Alot of people will say yes we NEED them because of the economy we live in. But do we really truly truly truly NEED them??
Then why do the homeless beg for money?
If you live in a big city then there is very little natural food that you can pick off of a tree or the ground. You would be arrested if you did not wear clothes and I seriously doubt any city boy has the knowhow to kill and skin an animal for clothing without a weapon, even if they could find a suitable animal in the city. Walking naked accross a city to try to find wilderness will get you arrested. Even if you DID find wilderness you would probably be caught and arrested within a month at the longest assuming you could survive that long. Pretty much all the land in this nation is already owned. If you buy the land to prance around naked on before you give everything up then you won't even be able to pay taxes and it will be repossessed.
I will give you that we do not NEED personal transportation, cell phones, and expensive food. We DO need money, clothing, shelter, and some source of food. Homeless shelters can provide these things, but they do so with bumbum bum ... MONEY!
In this day, age, and location money IS a necessity of life. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 1:46:46 PM |
Lol... A task for you Moreno. If you, take off your man produced clothes...all of them...now walk out into the street. There is a nice hollow log out in the woods, perfect for a natural shelter (u can's sleep in a man made shop doorway) You can eat bugs and other natural goodies in the woods if u get peckish (u can't make a man made spear to kill a dear). U can drink the clear waters of your local stream to quench ure thirst. If u get cold, u can rap up warm in some moss.... I truely, truely, truely wouldn't give you a week to survive. Oh... and u can bring your Bible along too.
Some people in this world don't even wear clothes....they survive. Yes, I did say we need shelter. The cover of trees is great shelter. There are homeless who live in boxes(yes i do know that that's considered man made), there are homeless who sleep in the OPEN streets. There is food that was created by God from trees and the ground which are not man made. People don't even have to kill animals(of course it's a choice and depending on the position and circumstances you are in).....wait for natural death. Clear waters u say??? Perhaps it would be if man had not been so corrupt to pollute it. The world doesn't pollute itself unless something has been done to it itself. You see, as I said, if it wasn't for this society/economy then we would be able to do all that what you mentioned without a doubt. But I'm talking do we TRULY TRULY NEED IT?? In other words.............is it IMPOSSIBLE to live like that???? So how do you imagine life would have been like 5000 years ago??? Man made things according to what was given by God, yes. I would like to hear what people would have done 5000 years ago......
Matthew 6:7
Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.
Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you?, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 2:08:27 PM | If I, took off all my clothes, sheltered under the perfect cover of trees, drank from unpoluted streams and ate apples and berries off the trees I would last a couple of days in -3 deg. if i was lucky. If I wasted my time seeking the lords kingdom and righteousness, the pagens'd have nicked all fruit!
However, man used to have enough hair on his body to survive without clothes although not quite 5000 years ago tho... | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 2:49:51 PM | | I would not say that absolutely believe that there is no God, but I can not prove that there is either, more than anything I dont believe in the church. I realize that for alot of people their faith is everything to them and we all have to have faith in something, we just have to accept we are not all going to have faith in the same thing. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 188 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 3:02:02 PM | I realize that for alot of people their faith is everything to them and we all have to have faith in something, we just have to accept we are not all going to have faith in the same thing.
However, it is just as illogical to post a thread asking why somebody HAS faith and then base your rebuttals of replies to the question with logic, as it is to post a thread asking:
"What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???"
And base your rebuttals on "reasons" given based on logic, with faith based replies.
To persist in both, is either the result of not comprehending the fallacy of your rebuttals (petitio principi), or out of being:
disingenuous
adj : not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 3:10:24 PM | | I did not get what you were saying Late lmao All I know is my lack of faith is not with God, but, the institution which claims to represent Him. I do not have to go to church or read the bible to believe in God and just because my view is different from someone elses, does not make either more or less relevant. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 190 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 3:45:17 PM | I did not get what you were saying Late lmao All I know is my lack of faith is not with God, but, the institution which claims to represent Him.
There are many, and most of them don't agree.
I do not have to go to church or read the bible to believe in God and just because my view is different from someone elses, does not make either more or less relevant.
Nope, in that sense all are equal. I was addressing the "meaning" of the OP, in my post ie: What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
My beliefs have a "God" that probably doesn't fit the definitions of any organized religion's idea of "God", ....as I expressed in previous posts.
What I was addressing was the problem with asking questions which have answers based on a premise not recognized by the asker........ And the asker not either recognizing, or respecting this. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 3:59:06 PM | I'm not going to dig through the last nine pages, but instead reserve my comments to the OP. The OP presented us with a watered down version of Pascal's Wager, as I'm sure someone before me has noted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
I don't want to slam the initial post too hard, because the material is presented with all the brightness, zeal and eagerness which only a recent convert can possess. I save my jaded cynicism for the overly convinced who should know better.
Most people who do not believe in God do not say, "I am rejecting truth." In fact, they believe they are rejecting falsehood and myth, and embracing truth. When you ask them, "Why don't you believe in God?" you are missing a fundamental point:
You are asking them to prove or validate a negative.
One could easily restate the question, "Why don't you believe the world was created by an alien who loved grilled cheese sandwiches and created all of the earth for the pleasure of his indulging this passion?"
Well, why don't you? Do you have any PROOF that the world was not created thus?
The question sounds absurd, stated thusly. But the root of the problem is that nobody is obligated to prove a negative. On questions regarding the existence of God, the burden of proof lies on those who believe that God exists to prove his or her or its existence. They are making the positive truth claim. Pascal's Wager, while somewhat clever, avoids this truth rather clumsily. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 193 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 4:03:01 PM |
One could easily restate the question, "Why don't you believe the world was created by an alien who loved grilled cheese sandwiches and created all of the earth for the pleasure of his indulging this passion?"
Mmmmmmmm...... cheese!
Yeah, Pascal's Wager has been mentioned, ....to no effect sadly.
It IS a valid question though, it's the rebuttal to the "reason(s)" where fallacies abound. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 4:11:40 PM |
My beliefs have a "God" that probably doesn't fit the definitions of any organized religion's idea of "God", ....as I expressed in previous posts.
Satan is a god.
If your beliefs have a "God". Do they include Jesus?? My belief isn't even about God, it's about what He did. My belief is about Jesus. And for anyone to say that they believe in the stories of Jesus and still not follow according to what the Bible teaches, he is foolish. If you believe that there was a Jesus but still don't believe in the "word of God", then you are lying to yourself because The Bible is backup of that belief that Jesus existed. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 195 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 4:19:48 PM | Sadly you don't seem to understand the meaning of the question you asked. Though it's a valid one to discuss, it's not in any way shape or form a "reason" to preach. If you see it as such, you are either not understanding the meaning of "discussion" in the context of this forum, or are being dishonest.
Do understand though that "preaching" is against the rules here. This is a discussion forum, not a church or fellowship group.
The Bible is backup of that belief that Jesus existed.
The same thing can be said of the Koran. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 4:30:12 PM |
Satan is a god. - Moreno1982
Actually, if you're going to take the Evangelical/Fundamenatalist ahistorical Bible proof-texting route, then the Bible says that Satan is the god of this age (2 Corinthians 4:4), or someone with great and almost godlike power for a time and a space in this world alone. He is not a god, per se, but in fact a fallen angel, or a created being rather than a creator.
If your beliefs have a "God". Do they include Jesus?? My belief isn't even about God, it's about what He did. My belief is about Jesus. And for anyone to say that they believe in the stories of Jesus and still not follow according to what the Bible teaches, he is foolish. If you believe that there was a Jesus but still don't believe in the "word of God", then you are lying to yourself because The Bible is backup of that belief that Jesus existed. - Moreno1982
You accept the Bible as flawless, inerrant and without contradiction. That's fine, and a very common understanding. What you need to see is that while you accept the Bible this way, you have to ignore many of the problems inherent in the Bible in order to embrace this. Don't bother asking me to prove that the Bible contains contradictions, either. I've been down that road too many times. You may indeed believe that Jesus existed, and that the Bible is not 100 percent true, accurate or reliable - C.S. Lewis notwithstanding. | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 1/30/2006 9:07:06 PM | "Man" has no more explanation or answers in this world than what the "God" does. So who should we believe?? Man or God?? Why "Man"?? If you ask me why God, then I will tell you that I believe in what He teaches and I have faith in Him and what He teaches. Don't put words in my mouth, because I am not saying that I don't trust man. I trust man, but I don't put my faith in man.
If God is constructed by Man, or an earlier idealism of man, then which should we trust? It would be logical to trust the one with more knowledge of the situation, that being the current humanity. While we may not have all the answers, that doesn't mean we should place the spiritual as an answer.
You see, you're working under the premise that God exists from the start, which makes the above argument useless if the premise isn't true. If God does exist, then it makes sense to place trust in him ,but how do we know that? The argument fails to begging the question without further explanation.
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 2/1/2006 5:56:59 PM |
It could be argued that God placed HIS faith in Man when He granted us Free Will. Who am I to argue with that?
That is absolutely true.......and who are we to argue that theory? Just as who are we to argue the theory if God even exists? So then.....where do we stand?? How do we find those answers?? Can we even find those answers?? The questions are answerless I suppose. (not in my perspective because I am a believer in God)
I just find it weird how a lot of people who are not religious turn to God just before knowing that they are going to die(Not all people, but there are those who do) Why turn to Him ONLY before we know we are going to die, and not while we are living on this planet??
Could it be because all of us human beings are scared of death and we really don't know what is going to happen to us after we die??? or maybe we even think God is gonna do some miracle so we can survive...(which in my eye, I would consider that selfishness; only turning to someone when you need something or feel that you want or deserve something) | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 199 | |
| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 2/1/2006 6:05:41 PM |
That is absolutely true.......and who are we to argue that theory?
Absolute? No
Who we are
"Theory", has many meanings
Just as who are we to argue the theory if God even exists?
Some are critical thinkers, some aren't - hence the dichotomy inherent in the question you asked, BTW, it's not a "theory", it's a question of faith for some, credibility for others....
Those from the perspective of faith, find the other lacking in faith.....
Those from the perspective of skepicism, find the other lacking in skepticism.......
They are both right, from their perspective frame of reference.
I just find it weird how a lot of people who are not religious turn to God just before knowing that they are going to die(Not all people, but there are those who do) Why turn to Him ONLY before we know we are going to die, and not while we are living on this planet??
DO you have a cite for this?
A statistic?
Anything?
Or is this another baseless statement? | |
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| What reason do you have NOT to believe in God???
Posted: 2/1/2006 6:15:04 PM | The shoe is often on the other foot at the non-believer's deathbed, with the priest hovering close by, urging for conversion. This has a long tradition in the Christian church. Mersault, in Camus' "L'Etranger", had a few choice words to say to the priest, which puts the ball back in the other court.
edit: I should add, the priest being there as an unwelcome guest. | |
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