AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 50 | |
| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 6:57:53 PM |
Now were he to say, you are walking along and find a prefectly shaped Iron Pyretes Cube and reasond that this cube was to perfectly formed to have not been desighned, then his analogy would have been corect, because he would be comparing a natural system to a natural system.
OK well lets look at it this way then;
You can make a sandwich but who made you, and who made them, etc...
Could it get anymore natural then that?
Dr. Kent Hovind ?
One of the most debunked of the pseudo-scientists.
Do you have evidence of him being discredited that you would tag him with pseudo tag? | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 7:16:23 PM |
Do you have evidence of him being discredited that you would tag him with pseudo tag?
This was dealt with months ago in this thread:
Creation vs Evolution
If you want to save yourself some reading, just Google "Kent Hovind Debunked", you'll get a ton of hits,....even some Evangelical Christians distance themselves from him because of his practice of basing things on fallacious logic.
ie:
Since our last conversation regarding Kent Hovind, I've looked at several of the Internet sites that critique his work, and have also visited Hovind's own web site (which I had not done previously).
As you noted, some anti-Hovind sites are merely hatchet jobs, but others present serious and apparently competent critiques of his videos. More disturbingly, several contributors allege unethical and deceptive conduct by Hovind. An examination of Hovind's own web site provides independent reasons to doubt his credibility.
I believe that becoming involved with Hovind would be detrimental 1) to Hovind himself; and 2) to the potential salvation of people who currently scoff at Christianity because (at least in part) of the prominence of people like Hovind among Believers. I realize that many Believers dismiss the scoffers as people who reject the Gospel because they wish merely to indulge their own sinful desires (a belief based upon 2nd Peter 3). However, it should be noted that I used to be a scoffer. I became a Believer in spite of the Hovinds.
Probably because some Christians don't have a problem with Evolution, some do.
That, by the way, ...is the topic of this thread, if you're looking to debate the validity of Creationism vis a vis Science, ....you're in the wrong thread. The topic of this one is:
Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist? | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 7:27:26 PM | From the vast majority of my reading on the subject, I would have to conclude that most of the people that identify "evolutionism" as a philosophical stance are Christians.
If the question is whether a faithful Christian can accept the theory of evolution as being a reasonable, logical interpretation of the evidential facts, I don't see any reason why not. | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 53 | |
| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 7:36:12 PM | This was dealt with months ago in this thread:
Creation vs Evolution
Sorry I missed that one, but I would also like to point out that although your interpretation is that I'm the one off thread I was only responding to your post of the pseudo-scientist tag.
Probably because some Christians don't have a problem with Evolution, some do.
That, by the way, ...is the topic of this thread, if you're looking to debate the validity of Creationism vis a vis Science, ....you're in the wrong thread. The topic of this one is:
Allow me to reiterate my response to that question directly, but it is in context to the biological portion you brought into the conversation.
So when you ask; "Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?"
No but as species yes but that would be limited as well... I guess by our imaginations! | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 7:50:39 PM | I was only responding to your post of the pseudo-scientist tag.
Dr. Kent Hovind ? One of the most debunked of the pseudo-scientists. Can a Christian also embrace the science of evolution? Why not? Many do, ........then there are the kind who eschew logic, like Hovind. Citing this guy does little for anybody's cred. This was dealt with months ago in this thread: Creation vs Evolution
So when you ask; "Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?"
No but as species yes but that would be limited as well... I guess by our imaginations!
I didn't ask the question, the OP did.
Are you insisting that Christians who have no problems differentiating between the frame of reference of theology and the frame of reference of science inclusive of evolution are no "Christians"? | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 55 | |
| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 8:05:19 PM | I didn't ask the question, the OP did.
I understand the "you" in this instance was generic in nature
Are you insisting that Christians who have no problems differentiating between the frame of reference of theology and the frame of reference of science inclusive of evolution are no "Christians"?
Not at all I only disagree with the position and the imaginary part it is akin to make believe and being a full grown man I do not think make believe is real. Furthermore I am not a scientist although I have met many through my church and those that support the creation version yet they still work in research and the applied part of the evolutionary process.
So my answer to the OP's question is no but when applied to a species the answer is yes however it is limited by the evidence that is present. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 9:41:34 PM | Not at all I only disagree with the position and the imaginary part it is akin to make believe and being a full grown man I do not think make believe is real.
This is easily applied to Christianity.
While logic cannot disprove that Jesus is a God, or that Zeus or Fairies don't exist, neither can logic prove that they do.
If science is make believe, how did your computer come to exist?
After all, many Christians use computers, yet, nobody can see an electron. Science however, via evidence, says the electron is there, and because of science, the electrons can be manipulated in a ways as to allow you to communicate on this forum.
Make believe?
This is a strawman fallacy, plain and simple.
There are no lightbulbs in the bible, yet they exist.... does acknowledging the imaginary electron make a person disqualified from being a Christian too? | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 57 | |
| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 10:27:46 PM | This is easily applied to Christianity.
It is easy for a non-believer to try and discount Christianity as make believe and I am happy that you have not called me a creationist. The Bible in Ephesians 2:8-9 says that Faith is a gift from God so nobody can boast.
Just as the imaginary portion of evolution Christianity has Faith I can explain my Faith can you explain your imagination or shall we call it Faith also and would it be enough if the Christian model proved to be true in the end?
I would suggest Faith and Reason - Ronald H. Nash, if you are interested in pursuing why some Christians have Faith.
I do not think that my Faith is the only answer and that anyone who chooses to disagree is entirely wrong with their choice. My Faith is based on personal spiritual experiences and knowledge which is entirely different from the garden variety worldly knowledge. Yet I still live and function in this temporal existence for the time being.
I was not aware that Kent Hovind and others where under suspicion of false credentials that they stated to have but there are others who's credentials are credible that support the Bombardier Beetle example I used such as; Scott Huse and Duane Gish.
I might also add that I did not always believe as I currently do and feel much happier having made the transition to recognize God in my life. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 10:44:47 PM | Are those who state that they are Christians, while understanding that: while science can't "see" an electron, or "gravity", but their existence is verified because it can be inferred via scientific method, ....not Christians?
Just because another person who calls them self Christian states that their assertion that some things in science are not verifiable via direct empirical means?
What are these Christians supposed to call themselves?
What do the implied "True" Christians call themselves to differentiate from the Christians who also buy into logic, and critical thinking?
It's not Hovind's lack of credentials that discount him as any kind of an authority, ...it's what he says that does that. The other two are similarly dealt with, again these questions are best pursued on the thread where they've already been exposed as fallacy.
This is a different topic, the idea here is quite the converse of the purpose of the other thread, this is why this thread hasn't been deleted for being redundant.
It's clear to any but the blindered that theology and science look at things from different frames of reference and different terms of reference, ...this is self-evident.
The question of this OP you have answered, ....you said "no".
What precludes a Christian, who has a particular Theological view, from being simpatico with views OUTSIDE of theology?
This is the question here, not the validity of Christianity,or the Science of Biology, of which Evolution is a part. | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 59 | |
| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 10:52:50 PM |
Are those who state that they are Christians, while understanding that: while science can't "see" an electron, or "gravity", but their existence is verified because it can be inferred via scientific method, ....not Christians?
The knowledge base is different and recognizable as worldly and spiritual
What are these Christians supposed to call themselves?
Believers in Christ
What do the implied "True" Christians call themself?
Believers in Christ
It's not Hovind's lack of credentials that discount him as any kind of an authority, ...it's what he says that does that.
I agree after further research of him and others there are certain facts that seem to be fallacy's that I have heard others mention without verification on my part, my bad. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/26/2006 11:08:56 PM | No bad at all.
You're never "wrong" for unknowingly citing sources who deliberately obfuscate and deceive, ....it's only wrong or "bad", if this is done willingly.
I used to be an Atheist, ....I thought that science precluded any kind of idea of a "God".
I no longer feel that way, though I don't subscribe to any specific organized faith, and my concept of "God" doesn't include the supernatural.
I do believe in my own way, in something "more". | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 9:10:58 AM |
the idea here is quite the converse of the purpose of the other thread, this is why this thread hasn't been deleted for being redundant.
You all are really over analyzing this. I'm having a hard time reading through your posts. I like what your saying.....I think. I really do want to understand what your saying, so maybe you could break it down for me a little.
Anyway, the reason I started the thread is because reading other posts in the Religion forum, I got the impression a lot of the time that if you are a christian you most likely don't believe in evolution and vice versa. I wanted to see if that was the case. It appears from the posts in this thread that thats not the case. Most of you are OK with the idea. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 5:09:01 PM | I belive that if a Christian belives in evolution, that they are in denial of what the scriptures teach about creation. I think alot of so called christians are only pseudo christians, caving into the secular society because they are to afraid to stand up for their Lord. We are called to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.
Any denial of any portion of the scriptures is a step closer to apostacy. Read the creation account and see if the dayage theory can fit into it. Or theistic evolution. He said he did it, and he did, in six days. He'll undo it in one..... | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 5:28:15 PM |
I belive that if a Christian belives in evolution, that they are in denial of what the scriptures teach about creation.
Yes, some take the position that those who don't believe as they do, re: "100% literal", are not Christians. Without a consensus on what "Christian" is defined as, this is at best, tenuous. But, in the interest of clarity, what is the name of this "True" Christian denomination? | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 5:33:35 PM | | In the dating forums, the phrase "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is very popular. Perhaps in this forum, we should adopt the phrase "Christianity is in the eye of the beholder." | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 5:45:08 PM |
"Christianity is in the eye of the beholder."
I agree 100%, some are content to define themselves by who they are, others seem to find it necessary to define others by exclusion. The idea, for example that Catholics aren't Christian is one I find kinda' strange.
Let's try the dictionary:
Christian
adj 1: relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites" [syn: Christian] 2: following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ [ant: unchristian] n : a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination [syn: Christian]
Hmmmm.... there are other religions that also recognize the Old Testament.
It does seem that there is some discrepancy concerning this among those who are common to the OT, including Judaism and Islam.
I suppose that it's okay to be a Christian and recognize the scientific validity of evolution, unless you are a Christian who thinks science is invalid. Frankly, I'm suprised that they would be using a computer. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 5:56:29 PM | I belive that if a Christian belives in evolution, that they are in denial of what the scriptures teach about creation. I think alot of so called christians are only pseudo christians, caving into the secular society because they are to afraid to stand up for their Lord. We are called to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. - peterdulux
Do you believe that the sun and moon move around a stationary earth?
No?
If not, then by your own definition, you are either a so-called Christian or a psuedo-Christian, caving into secular society.
In Joshua 10:12-14, Joshua prays that the sun will stand still. The Bible tells us that the sun and moon stood still. Yet, we know from science that this could not have been the case. The earth revolves around the sun.
You heretic. Repent immediately!
Any denial of any portion of the scriptures is a step closer to apostacy. Read the creation account and see if the dayage theory can fit into it. Or theistic evolution. He said he did it, and he did, in six days. - peterdulux
We also know from the Bible that God's ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9), and he does not perceive time the way we do (Psalms 90:4, II Pet. 3:8). Read the Bible a little more carefully before you tell other people to do the same. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 6:08:46 PM | I've observed that many Christians have a love/hate relationship with science and technology. They like it as long as it doesn't interfere with their particular interpretation of the Bible. Or they dislike technology, but they don't know what they would do without it, either. Or they blame man's misuse of technology on technology itself.
The Amish may subscribe to the "ignorance is bliss" philosophy, but they are pretty consistent about it. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 1/28/2006 6:57:26 PM |
I belive that if a Christian belives in evolution, that they are in denial of what the scriptures teach about creation
The scriptures do not teach that much about creation. Creationists read it as a literal 7 days. The Jewish scribes have written in depth about the genesis story, the ones I have read do not read it literally. There are many ways to read the genesis account..
Pete...Do you take the following as literal :-
Gen 2:21) And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof.
Spare ribs anyone..
Some biblical scholars along with the the above Jewish scribes have mentioned that there were other humans around at the time of Adam..
Scripture can be read on quite a few levels. Paul himself relates the story of Abraham as an allegory...
Galations 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and the other by a free woman. Now the son of the slave woman was conceived according to the flesh, but the son of the free woman was conceived through a promise. This is being said as an allegory, for these women represent two covenants. The one woman, Hagar, is from Mount Sinai, and her children are born into slavery. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery along with her children. But the heavenly Jerusalem is the free woman, and she is our mother.
Yes a Christian can take the theory of evolution without compromising the faith. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 10:57:51 PM | | I don't see why not. I mean after all, it was Georges-Henri Lemaître, a roman catholic priest, that tried to sway Einstein from his Steady-State theory to the Big Bang model...to no avail might I add...Einstein even initially suggested that his physics was not particularly good...lol....besides, the vatican holds cosmology conferences! I know that its not evolutionary science but its not that much of a stretch. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 11:18:21 PM | Actually recent physics findings have shown that the big bang might be a big myth.
Red shifts and such are a result of temporal geometry not actual movement according to some new theories. This seems to indicate that the universe is even older than was previously estimated... more like eternal.
Edit: Blast it, the PDF lecture on it has been removed from the public server. I guess they got too many random hits from people on the internet.
Googling geometry of time will probably land some hits though. | |
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| Can a Christian also be an Evolutionist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 11:41:38 PM | Red shifts and such are a result of temporal geometry not actual movement according to some new theories.
This is off topic and all I will say about that is that red shifts are measured using spectrographs which in turn are based on spectroscopy.
OT: The vatican has openly stated its support for the study of everything that happened after the Big Bang but not at or before the Bang as that was God's territiory. I don't have an original quote of this and I am only paraphrasing what Hawking said at a conference at the Vatican in 1981:
"the participants were granted an audience with the Pope (John Paul II). He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did not know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference - the possibility that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation." | |
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