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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 11:55:20 AM | it's not an abuse of power at ALL. it's being the gender that has a bit of self control that's all. if women were as sexually open as men nothing would get done in this world people would be going at it like animals. already with women's lib women are more in tune with their sexuality and what you see is a general sense of displacement, imagine if ALL women acted on their sexuality the way men do. just stop and think about that for a second.
That is pretty good explanation of how the power is generated after conditions shift to allow that. However, abuse speaks to the motives in place in wielding said power, and I think the manner in which it is welded could be described as abusive in too many circumstance. Women, especially younger ones, tend to wield this power of denial to their exclusive benefit without concern for the impact of this behavior on others. That's a pretty good fit for the definition of abusive.
The power is not in the "giving" us what we ultimately want, the power is in the denying us that. It is a power that is derived from a negative action. Not a good thing.
most men, whether they admit it or not, automatically lose interest in a woman if she offers herself sexually too soon.
Offering herself to soon is not in and of itself a catalyst for loss of interest.... you may find that the personality type that will tend to jump right in the sack may also do other things that are interest killers. It is not necessarily a direct connection to her being immediately sexually available. that is a very broad generalization. I do know men that it applies to, but they are far from "most men." It takes two to tango, and if she is a tramp for having sex on the first date, I guess that label will apply to thew lucky guy as well. Most men I know really don't hold this double standard. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 1:03:36 PM | Women, especially younger ones, tend to wield this power of denial to their exclusive benefit without concern for the impact of this behavior on others. That's a pretty good fit for the definition of abusive.
Duci, I'm really shocked at your opinions on this topic...this isn't like you.
so now because a woman holds out on having sex with a man she is being abusive? exactly how is she abusing a man? what by giving him blue balls? (sorry I couldn't resist LOL) And what shocks me more is this martyr stance that you have taken for men alike, because "you poor poor men have to endure such "abuse" when a woman won't put out!?!? Are you as a gender THAT simplistic that you cannot live without sex with a woman in the courting process without labeling it as abuse? at the end of the day who cares WHY she is holding out if she is not ready she is not ready. end of story. if you feel you are being used then move on. and in order to be used one has to be giving and I don't understand what you would be giving in order to feel abused when a woman won't put out?
WOW honestly you are making your gender look very simplistic right now. And if you are that simplistic again, be thankful we are the gender that can still think with our heads a little....
At the end to the day you think younger women play these games, then that is yet another reminder that they do not have the maturity to meet you at an equal level mentally therefore you might want to stick to women closer to your age group. I cannot feel sorry for a fully grown man who complains about being taken for a ride by someone considerbly younger who neither has the experience nor the strength in character developed yet to act maturely and in a appropriately considerate manner.
you may find that the personality type that will tend to jump right in the sack may also do other things that are interest killers
Ohhh like what?...say....suddenly feel a sense of entitlement to the man or the "non-existent" relationship? these women suddenly become obssessed with trying to capture a man to hold him down to act as if they are suddenly in a relationship with you? Well if this is what you were implying by "these women do things that are interest killers after the sex happens soon..." well what do you expect, you have shared together with another human being the utmost intimate thing you can share, two human beings give each other their bodies, the most precious gift a person can give to another, how could these women NOT feel like they are entitled to some emotional reciprocation and connection? when in actuality all that's on a guy's mind at that point is "I can't get myself out of here fast enough, who the hell is this person?" THAT is what is so ASSED BACKWARDS about sharing intimacy with a stranger, the fact that it should be shared with someone you trust and who reciprocates the connection to you.
So are women being abusive or simply protecting themselves?
Your friend might not feel this way, but then your friends are either a very small minority or they are simply not being honest with you. Look at any thread on that topic here even and 8 out of 10 men will tell you they lose interest if it happens too soon. I don't make the facts up, it's men and women and how we relate. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 2:45:18 PM | | Its not how many letters you receive ...rather, WHO sends them. Some men man receive 20 and find 20 women not to their liking..........hang in there and don;t give up so easily. Life IS a challenge. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 2:53:07 PM | | It's just said I guess is the word to see sexual intimacy in particular being talked about like trading baseball cards. Who got the better deal, who's getting what and who's giving what. If that's the way it is, I'd just as soon not bother. I can tell you it won't be that way with me, I don't use sex as a bargaining tool or a weapon. It's not something "traded" for something else. I don't think of it as a commodity but rather a communication of the love I feel for someone, something special and wonderful. Not "Let's Make A Deal". | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 5:53:06 PM | Duci, I'm really shocked at your opinions on this topic...this isn't like you.
one should be careful not to confuse personal opinion with debate/discussion | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 6:24:05 PM | you seem not to be following my argument...
so now because a woman holds out on having sex with a man she is being abusive? exactly how is she abusing a man? what by giving him blue balls?
It's not that she isn't "putting out"... it's why she elects to take that action that is issue here.
And what shocks me more is this martyr stance that you have taken for men alike, because "you poor poor men have to endure such "abuse" when a woman won't put out!?!?
Men do not have to put up with this, it is a social choice. In that sense the martyr title is a little more accurate than you may have meant when you introduced it. In the classic Hobbesian "state of nature," which would be humanity without social order or structure, a woman has no such right of refusal and therefore no power, in this context, at all. The strong take what they will. The alternative to men choosing to endure this would be women reverting to a very primitive state of existence. That is simple reality.
I cannot feel sorry for a fully grown man who complains about being taken for a ride by someone considerably younger who neither has the experience nor the strength in character developed yet to act maturely and in a appropriately considerate manner.
Are you implying that a younger woman lacks the mental or emotional capacity to act in a appropriate manner? Perhaps they are not responsible? if you go back to a previous post you will see that I made the point that this is part of the problem - women's rights without women's responsibilities. I reject this idea. An 18 year old wife has equal rights with in the legal construct of marriage as her husband regardless of his age. Why then should she not have equal responsibility? On the face of it, if you cannot see the gross inequity in that statement, there is little chance that anyone will be able to help you see it.
Ohhh like what?...say....suddenly feel a sense of entitlement to the man or the "non-existent" relationship? ...
There are so many assumption withing this paragraph that are designed to make the man look at fault for their actions and the woman blameless for hers that I don't know where to start with it.... so I wont.
Your friend might not feel this way, but then your friends are either a very small minority or they are simply not being honest with you. Look at any thread on that topic here even and 8 out of 10 men will tell you they lose interest if it happens too soon. I don't make the facts up, it's men and women and how we relate.
You can't really look at the trend in conversation on here and expect that it is a fair representation of the opinions of the majority of men. The men that say they loose interest too soon are interested in the woman for sexual purposes only. It is a rational thing that once they get that, it's on to new pasture, (Ashley Judd and her the "old cow theory") If a man is truly interested in a woman for her body, mind, soul... it will not be the case. (as was the moral of that particular movie) | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 10:42:05 PM | Okay, for what I say, don't come at me with a wet noodle and beat me. lol
For one thing, I think that alot of people come into these such sites with their expectation's level set on high and personally, I don't think that's ever a good thing. That's just going to hurt you in some way when and if things turn out differently than what you wanted and or expected.
SDDUDE... what you said was really cruel and to be honest with you, what you said stung.
Women are NOT stupid... at least no moreso than any men out there... women know, as do men, what they want and or need. We all have our particular choices and personally, I'd rather take my time meeting the right person. What the hell is the rush? I think many do rush and in that rush they meet the wrong person/s who soon after make them unhappy, they find that they are not as compatible as they thought they were.
And furthermore, I certainly don't need some GQ, rich, tall man for those simple facts, I want and DESERVE someone who is my fookin equal. I don't depend on having a man in my life but one would be nice to COMPLIMENT it... I depend on ME first and formost.
When someone constantly throws themselves at others, that shows desperation and desperation makes everyone weary, wondering what reasons could there be.
There, I hope I made "some" sense.
If not, maybe I should get wooped with a wet noodle.
You all have a great weekend and for goodness sakes go easy on yourselves and the rest of us out here too. lol | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 10:47:30 PM | And for the record...
I do receive a fair amount of mails from pretty nice gentlemen, which I think thats nice and I am flattered, as well as thankful that they took the time to mail me a note, however lengthy or short. I am not every trying to be mean by not responding, which I do when I can. Consider that I, like many, do have other things happening and mailing back right away may not be a priority. Hope that didn't sound mean.
As well, when a man and or woman for that matter, mails someone introducing themselves and wanting a reply and do not receive one, just take that they are simply not interested for whatever personal reasons their own. It doesn't mean they are trying to hurt anyone or be ****y, selfabsorbed or hurtful, it just means that they are not as interested as you seemed to be about them. Inhale, exhale, move on. Simple as that really.
Take care. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 11:07:10 PM | In otherwords - sit in the corner and be quite.
You were correct. My apologies. You weren't speaking to me. But I'll pass on the offer. You obviously know what women appreciate - having their intelligence insulted and being told to sit down and shut up. (But I did fire the first round didn't I?)
I'll slink over to the corner and continue reading my Emerson's Essays - and be qui-e-t. Please by all means, continue class. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/3/2006 11:28:26 PM | sigh
I just went back to reading some individual's messages and I am completely appauled!
WFin' power?
So help me, the only hand I'd care to have up is my right one... that's the one that would slap the shit that some people blurt out of their mouths with utter disrespect.
The only power I have is over ME. I don't play god and aim to have power over anyone but me for fookin sakes.
Grrrrrrrrrrr | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/4/2006 11:03:18 AM | If you're confident, not getting any e-mails shouldn't bother you. Just be honest and give it time. Somebody will come along. The women on this site might look like they have, in your words, "Upper hand". I don't think that is true. Women are social creatures. Men are semi-social. Men need to open up to these women than sit around and wait for e-mails. I send e-mails. Sometimes I get responses and sometimes I don't. I don't take it personally when I don't. Who cares, at least you're taking the right steps in changing your life. You should give yourself credit for that! | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/4/2006 1:28:13 PM | realroughdiamond: I think he owes you a beer too! I agree with you if a man and I mean a real man would read a womans magazine it would help out a lot.He might be able to figure out what the ladies like and dislike. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/4/2006 1:58:56 PM | 1nonlyluv - hate to break it to you, but I'm a woman. Don't know why I would need to read Cosmopolitan or some of the other drivel to find out what I like or dislike and much prefer The Atlantic Monthly, Newsweek or something along those lines.
And realrough, the last guy to tell me to sit down and shut up got slugged - by me. But I was in a feminine emotional state so it was his fault. 
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/4/2006 3:26:34 PM | red sweetie, I think he was giving advice to bellymanbob about reading the mags. But it seems to me that you might need some advise on to read a FORUM, so please break it to me gently and don't slug me!!!!!!! | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/4/2006 3:32:08 PM | It's not that she isn't "putting out"... it's why she elects to take that action that is issue here.
ok let's stop beating around the bush here and you spell it out for me and tell me why a woman chooses to hold out on sex, hence your "abuse" theory.
In the classic Hobbesian "state of nature," which would be humanity without social order or structure, a woman has no such right of refusal and therefore no power, in this context, at all. The strong take what they will. The alternative to men choosing to endure this would be women reverting to a very primitive state of existence. That is simple reality.
oh my god and you're quoting Hobbes? a man who's very theories were criticized because his views on how we as people would exist in a world where we had to fend for ourselves, were purely imagined? I mean c'mon never in the history of society have we lived in a world where we were one against the world, possibly even in prehistoric times we may have been close to that, but even with cavemen the prinicples that I have discussed here of how women and men relate, form a pure animalistic sense of being, were still prevalent. So please, to introduce Hobbes theories is like saying "well if we were all born with a clone of ouselves then life would be a lot easier since all we would have to do is send in the clone to deal with all the unpleasant tasks we hate to endure" I dunno...silly example but the gest of it is, that it is a purely imagined theory with no real basis on how it would ACTUALLY be since we have no idea what it would be like. It's like speculating about death.
Are you implying that a younger woman lacks the mental or emotional capacity to act in a appropriate manner? Perhaps they are not responsible?
no, I'm not implying it, I am flat out stating it. What is innaporpriate for someone of your age group is perhaps more excusable for someone who is starting out in life. Some women, people, in their younger years do not have the maturity to act in ways that are emotionally and mentally equal to what is expected of someone who is 10 or 20years older than them. I'm not making excuses for anyone I'm just saying that is how maturity happens, it's natural. There is a reason why when we are 20 we are different then when we are 30 or 50. Otherwise people would not change whatsoever mentally from the age of 20 to 50. So what I am saying is that when you take a 20 year old person of either sex and put them together in a marriage with someone of a close age, for example, you know that their mistakes and their trials and tribulations will be somewhat similar. They will be growing together at a smiliar pase, if you will.
But if you take a person in their early 20's and pair them up with a person who is 10 or 15 or 20 years older then you cannot expect those two people to have the same maturity levels, when one has the advantage of `10 years more life experience. So can you fault a person who is still trying to figure themselves out for making mistakes that a person who is already figured themselves out would NOW not make? I can't. why? because I know I was a different person when I was 20 then I am now, 15 yrs later. So if I got involved with a man that was 24, and he made mistakes that were inexcusable in my eyes, do I blame him and his inability to mature as quickly as I'd like him to or do I blame myself for getting involved with someone I knew had a lot of catching up to do to be where I am today?
There are so many assumption withing this paragraph that are designed to make the man look at fault for their actions and the woman blameless for hers....
look you brought this up, you made the following statement: "Offering herself to soon is not in and of itself a catalyst for loss of interest.... you may find that the personality type that will tend to jump right in the sack may also do other things that are interest killers." just explain what you meant by that then? Funny how in one instance you blame women for withholding sex and being abusive towards men when doing so and in the next you fault women for giving it up to soon and doing things that are interest killers!?!?! so what is it then?
You can't really look at the trend in conversation on here and expect that it is a fair representation of the opinions of the majority of men.
the trend here in parcticular was just a convenient offering to reference my statement. And yeah of course I can look at a trend here, this site, in the forums there is a plethora of examples of how men and women relate. It's funny because after coming here and having read so many theories on how men and women relate i have never seen so many truer examples to back up these theories than seeing them here come to life before my very own eyes.
But also I am a woman and I know the way men are, I also have many women friends and grew up hearing things from other women on how men are. I also have read many many theories on gender relations. It's basic knowledge that goes back to prehistoric times where we acted less with emotion and more from an instinctual place, men will quickly lose interest once they plant the seed, regarldess of what his motives are prior to this. Look anywhere for the basic laws of attraction and you will find what I am speaking of.
and oh my GOD please don't quote Ashly Judd, I thought we were having a semi-intelligent exchange!!!! | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/4/2006 3:36:19 PM | | It was a joke. See the little rolly guy? And I've never hit a woman. Only men when they are drunk, obnoxious and threatening me - and it was a long time ago, a lifetime. (No reference to realroughdiamond there.) So you're quite safe. Thanks for the advice though. I'll take into consideration. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/5/2006 1:28:55 AM | oh my god and you're quoting Hobbes? a man...
I don t think you even understand my reference to Hobbes' State of Nature, or even Hobbesian theory in general. And then you dredge up a factoid like "basic knowledge that dates back to prehistoric times"???? your not getting the point because your not debating the point.
no, I'm not implying it, I am flat out stating it.
You seem to have an equal "but" perspective on things... your exceptions always lean towards the feminine gender. you don't hold women accountable because for you there always seems to be an acceptable reason why they aren't. Their feelings, their age, whatever.
and oh my GOD please don't quote Ashly Judd, I thought we were having a semi-intelligent exchange!!!!
BTW it wasn't Ashley Judd that was being quoted.. it was the premise of the movie. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/5/2006 9:17:55 AM | There's this concept well known by players called Rocks and Gold. One of the things it states is that women will generally be more accepting of just dating (dinners, nights out, etc) without sex, and men will be more accepting of just sex without dating.
Now, although it is the woman's right to choose whether or not to have sex, she is equally told that within that time period where she is "witholding", comtemplating potential suitors, weighing her options etc, she is within her right to enjoy the benefits of dating (dinners, nights out, etc.), without ever having to reciprocate. There is absolutely no regard to the negative effect this has on men - having their time wasted, having to give a woman the pleasure of their company for free etc. It boils down to the simple fact that women are allowed to get away with pimping the men for their personality and time and get nothing in return.
Now, the simple solution would be to make it clear to a woman that unless she likes you enough to sleep with you, she isn't going to get a lot of your time and energy, other than, let's meet over drinks, and get acquainted, without further plans UNLESS she gives you real reason to believe she likes you sexually. And if she b*tches about things not being fair yadda yadda, just tell her diplomatically (or undiplomatically, depending on her character), that your time, energy, and money is just as important to you as her "goods" are to her.
You have to put women you are considering dating into a NO SPIN zone, where, like a smart negotiator, you make sure that you aren't doing more than your necessary share beyond that needed to just attract her, and stopping short of ALL actions which are rewarding her before she makes it clear she genuinly likes you romantically. If she says that maybe after a few dates she will start to see you as more attractive tell her no, she has to be into you naturally and after a MAXIMUM of one date. Yeah, it's hardcore but believe me, you will save yourself MUCH anguish doing it this way. | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/6/2006 7:44:14 AM | | Has anybody stopped to think that some guys lose interest in women who "put out" too soon because... we know that she does that with EVERY guy, we're not special, we don't want the dsieases those other 347 guys gave her, and we don't want the baggage, and we want a woman with enough self-respect to not sleep with a guy when no other feelings are involved? I'm not saying we want the virgin Mary here!- but most guys, if they've grown up a bit and are looking for a "relationship" not a "f*ck buddy", don't want a woman who sluts herself out! | |
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| Do Women realy have the 'Upper Hand'? Ladies?
Posted: 2/6/2006 8:07:24 AM | ^^Thank you very much, I rest my case!
Plain and simple, decent guys don't want an imbalanced tramp. I do however question the types of men that do go for that. So women that won't put out are less about playing games with men and more about practicing who they preach they are. If a guy has no time to stick around for that, his loss, easy lays are a dime a dozen..."go get em'tiger"! You can still show interest in a man and be affectionate with him as the intimacy grows without having to put everything out on a silver platter like it's the only thing a woman has to offer. As was said above, "it's all about self-respect" and if a person respects themselves that is proof that they have the capacity to respect others, ie. YOU. | |
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