A real man doesn't pay child support, he spends half his time raising that child and making whatever changes in his life to do so...at least that's what I have done.

Both sexes have input over pregnancy, but only one has the final decision over having a baby...there's your round room now go find a corner...

Although if having an active sex life for half my life and managing to not impregnate anyone makes me come across as a walking penis with cognitive limitations to the REAL women you describe? You can keep them.

The smokescren is the USE by men of the EQUALITY card as a vehicle to argue the CS issue.

We had less problems with unwanted pregnancies aka "accidents" in the "civilized" portions of the world when there weren't any other forms of birth control other than abstinance or the rhythm method. It certainly makes one wonder if we are truly evolving or regressing.

So I can only assume 2 things, these guys are using BC but just want to argue for their "brothers" or they do not use it because they dont think that they should have to.

Profiler...
To many of your questions....ask yourself this?
How did Children's Rights come into being? Why was it formed?

I am glad that the courts took the welfare and care of the child right out of the parents rights and made it the childs rights. Some parents have been proven to be so bad that the court has awarded the child to the best caretaker out of both families...sometimes the grandmother or grandfather, aunt or uncle.

Read a few threads on here on how ugly parents can be. It ONLY strengthens CHILD's RIGHTS.

(Perictyone) I'm amazed that this debate is still raging.

This does not address a situation in which it is not within a woman’s moral/ethical framework to have an abortion; in this case, she can’t make a choice to avoid parenthood, but the man is still able to? That doesn’t seem particularly fair to me, and it leaves the woman wholly responsible – physically, emotionally & financially. Adopting out would, obviously, be the next choice (and in my view, the best one), but again some people may not be able to do that.
The whole “women have the choice, therefore men should be absolved from any responsibility” seems to ignore the reality that the choice, for many women, borders on coercion. If the instinctive desire to bear and raise children is as strong in women as is the instinctive desire for sex in men, then saying abortion is a viable option for all women is as pointless as saying celibacy is a viable option for all men. These urges are among the strongest in humans – since it involves continuing of the species - and while some people can and do overcome them (at least for a time), many more do not or cannot.
In the case where a woman can neither abort nor adopt (whether you agree with her reasons or not) , should she be penalized for this by also having to raise a child on her own? Should society be penalized by having to take over the responsibility of the disinterested father?

I do not like that a man has no choice about his child being aborted. I think this is wrong and unfair. It’s not as if men don’t have feelings for children, and especially for “their” children. Why can she decide to keep a child, but not him?
If a man is to be forced to accept consequences of his actions (financial support of a child) I see no reason why a woman cannot accept the consequences of her actions – pregnancy/surrogacy – allow the potential life and allow a man his child. For me, personally, this is one area where I think the rights of the father and the rights of the potential human over-ride the rights of the mother.

Yes, it’d be most useful – along the time of the STD discussion, the standard “Pregnancy Possibility Form” could be filled in and notarized. It’d certainly slow down spontaneous sex! The big question on the forums: Should I bring out the PPF on the first, second or third date??

Again, what about the men who want the baby, but must accept the pain of losing it through abortion? How does this address their needs and rights?

Leaving the decision entirely with the woman forces abortions on men, sometimes. Some men find this extremely difficult and painful, for a long time – perhaps a lifetime. Is this fair?

But it seems to me, at this point and in this thread, that the only “better” most men can conceive of leaves him entirely risk-free in the pursuit of sex. He can’t get pregnant, can’t have an abortion, doesn’t have to support any kids that he might happen to father. In the man’s “fair” world, all the consequences of unwanted pregnancies fall on the woman.

Some men claim that if they have to pay 50% of the cost, they should have 50% of the decision making ability. Ok, that sounds fair. But offered to them, the response seems to be “It’s not right to force a woman to abort or to carry a child to term”. This is also reasonable, albeit unfair to men who don’t want their child aborted.

It seems to me that what we seem to be left with is that the only decision men REALLY want is the one that allows them to pass all the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy on to the woman. The emotional/physical cost of abortion or adoption, the financial cost of raising kids men don’t want – they seem to want to opt out of it all, either via the default escape biology gives them, or because *she* decided to have the baby when abortion is available to her, at least in theory. Is that fair?

I agree, again. Although I have to admit it seems to be an argument, from you, for holding a man responsible for unintended children based on the woman’s choice to keep them.

But I suppose in this case you are saying that the step-parent’s right to avoid paying for kids not his own supersedes the bio-fathers right not to raise kids he didn’t want?

I agree, this would be the fairest option for each individual man. But in the real world, more men would refuse that responsibility than would women, even if only because of differences in biological design. And, while fair to the individual man who doesn't want to be a dad, it’s not fair to society as a whole, or to the child of the union. Or even to those men who would like to be able to keep the child a woman chooses to abort.

pro-filer, these are interesting and logical points.

Some of them could be considered borderline emotionally inhumane, and

Of course it makes fora family court system that will damn near fall over of it's own weight, and I suspect income, property, sales and other taxes will have to be raised on ALL of the citizens, to deal with the inherent risk of sexual intercourse,but if that's what it takes so that men don't feel so abused and hard done by, I say "Fair enough."

If someone doesnt want to be a father so be it... LET THEM GO!
Why chase after them for money? for revenge? making their child miserable seeing such stupidity!
Some of u are debating the issue of forcing morality and goodness onto people that dont have it or want it.

If someone wants to do the right thing they will....
If not then so be it.. but getting them to do the right thing is only going to get resentment and a hard life for the CHILD!
Drop this its you people fighting with each other and not helping the person who posted in the fist place!

Ahhhh.....Each great empire in our history has always been taken down when things were too good. When sloth, hedonism, partying and rampant sexuality were the norm.

Of course it makes fora family court system that will damn near fall over of it's own weight, and I suspect income, property, sales and other taxes will have to be raised on ALL of the citizens, to deal with the inherent risk of sexual intercourse,but if that's what it takes so that men don't feel so abused and hard done by, I say "Fair enough."

True, and mighty sporting of you, Cindy, to be willing to make us all pay so that men don't have to.

Actually, that is NOT my wish or intent.

then I'd rather have my taxes go up than have children living in deprivation, or women forced to abort or adopt out their babies because men were able to evade responsibility.

If you can not go through with abortion due to your own moral or ethical frame work, should you be allowed to place your moral framework on another? Should i have to be catholic if my g/f is? You have a right to your own religious/moral beliefs, but those come with consequences that you have chosen for yourself, imho

If women would go so far as to perform horrible abortions on their own to prevent that from happening 50 years ago, I just don't see how we wouldn't see a DRASTIC reduction in unwanted pregnancy if there wasn't a financial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

it begins to look as if men will use any excuse to avoid CS and parental privileges when it suits them, yet also demand the rights to parental privilege when that suits them.

What I find quite interesting is that many men seem to think that their roles as Fathers is being dismissed and trivialized, they are upset that Fathers rights are not important and they feel that they arent taken seriously by the courts and are unfairly treated, they find the idea of being considered just a sperm donator offensive and unfair.
BUT when the issue of an unwanted pregnancy rears its head all of a sudden their position is that ALL they ever were was a sperm donator, that their only role in the whole situation was to have sex, and shouldnt be held responsible for being a Father and supporting that child.

Abortion is a huge burden on peoples conscience that can make you feel tainted for the rest of your life.
You are way too casual about it but then it's not you doing it is it so it doesn't factor in for you does it. How callous. How selfish. How ignorant and blind.

Leaving the decision entirely with the woman forces abortions on men, sometimes. Some men find this extremely difficult and painful, for a long time – perhaps a lifetime. Is this fair?

Maybe you missunderstood. The statement did not refer to women who are pregnant and it is most certainly not releted to the use or lack of protection. The statement refers to women who have not achieved pregnancy yet use this litte threat as a mean to punish or catch a man's attentionn (usually occurs at the end of the relationship). The mere existence of such threats or false claim, and I am sure I am not the only man who has heard this song and dance, is a direct reflection of how women understand the power that can be wielded in the name of pregnancy.

So which is the LEAST unfair option? That's what it comes down to. And obviously men and women are going to disagree. Which option takes the best interests of the child into consideration? Which option is best for society as a whole?

Gawd.
Babe is back.
Welcome home kiddies.

it begins to look as if men will use any excuse to avoid CS and parental privileges when it suits them, yet also demand the rights to parental privilege when that suits them.
This is the feeling i am getting from all of this too..


What I find quite interesting is that many men seem to think that their roles as Fathers is being dismissed and trivialized, they are upset that Fathers rights are not important and they feel that they arent taken seriously by the courts and are unfairly treated, they find the idea of being considered just a sperm donator offensive and unfair.
BUT when the issue of an unwanted pregnancy rears its head all of a sudden their position is that ALL they ever were was a sperm donator, that their only role in the whole situation was to have sex, and shouldnt be held responsible for being a Father and supporting that child.
Yes throughout this thread it seems that men want it both ways. Many are complaining that they don't get to have a say in what happens in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, but what it comes down to is that THEY want to have all of the say instead of the woman

Yes throughout this thread it seems that men want it both ways. Many are complaining that they don't get to have a say in what happens in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, but what it comes down to is that Yes throughout this thread it seems that men want it both ways. Many are complaining that they don't get to have a say in what happens in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, but what it comes down to is that THEY want to have all of the say instead of the woman.