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 quietjohn2
Joined: 12/6/2004
Msg: 76
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original sinPage 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

The entire story is a metaphor for humans discovering the ability to create life and thus become like GOD. I'm refering, of course, to sex.
But that's just one interpretation of the metaphor, allbeit a popular one which doesn't seem to have surfaced until several centuies AD. There seems to be a serious inconsistency with that interpretation and God's admonition to "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth". (Gen. 1:28). Interestingly, that admonition and the revelation of the forbidden fruit were addressed to Adam before Eve was created. Does that mean some "Christian's" notion of women selectively being the original sinners/temptresses is wrong? Only Adam directly disobeyed God. The inconsistency in the assumption regarding sex is cleared if one assumes there are other ways of breeding. Hence the 'virgin birth'. But aren't we starting to wander away from reality a little, adding assumption to assumption to keep that original guess alive? And what of the required celibacy of priests? I'm not familiar with any priests managing to multiply - at least not without sex. Does that mean that priests and the churches which encourage them are sinners? They are directly disobeying God's very first instruction to man.
Then there's the question of why every living thing on the planet should die. Why should every creature suffer for what one/two person/s did?
 Guy Named Ray
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 77
original sin
Posted: 7/2/2008 8:56:08 AM
Original sin was created to scare people.
It's works on the same principles Politics of Fear uses.
 pnayplayr
Joined: 12/17/2005
Msg: 78
original sin
Posted: 7/2/2008 10:41:24 AM
it's funny how *some* HUMANS are just so "intellectual" about everything, needing explanations thinking they can comprehend everything and trash this idea of God. ummmmz...back to basics, if *you* are as smart and as "reasonable" person that you are, you'd know that there obviously some things that God knows and make sense of that us as a mortal human being can't.

so with that, as a person who lives by my faith, yes, there are some things i can't explain, but i accept it. faith is believing blindly in the truth that i know...which can go for your religion, relationships...etc. yes, one can consider it "stupidity", but that's why it's called a belief. i believe in something great, and others don't.

i hate how some people are so condascending thinking they're just so much "smarter" because they've "figure it out", that there is no God. you have your believe (of no God), and i have mine! i don't understand the need to belittle others about the difference.
 Guy Named Ray
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 79
original sin
Posted: 7/2/2008 11:11:18 AM

faith is believing blindly in the truth that i know...which can go for your religion, relationships...etc. yes, one consider it "stupidity", but that's why it's called a belief.
IMO that about says it all.
 skypoetone
Joined: 3/24/2005
Msg: 80
original sin
Posted: 7/2/2008 12:22:13 PM

I'm refering, of course, to sex. Eve's breast may have been the forbidden fruit, for once Adam tasted it he liked it and became aroused and introduced Eve to the "staff of Life" that eventually created Cain. Sex is constantly seen in a bad light throughout the Bible.

I’ve heard some explanations in my time, but how ludicrous... two naked species given everything they needed, yet they were never intended to desire each other sexually and procreate... a totally bizarre concept!
 Guy Named Ray
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 81
original sin
Posted: 7/2/2008 12:28:59 PM

yet they were never intended to desire each other sexually and procreate... a totally bizarre concept!
Nope. Comes right out of the teachings of "the church." Original sin is the sin of birth. All babies are born in sin.
 skypoetone
Joined: 3/24/2005
Msg: 82
original sin
Posted: 7/2/2008 12:35:58 PM
^^^
I’m sure it does… you didn’t catch my sarcasm. :)

BTW Skyliner1001

The term, "staff of life" referencing bread is a Biblical term and means, figuratively, a support of life.

www.fabulousfoods.com/fitfab/articles/lcwholefoods3.html
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 83
original sin
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:21:35 AM
Heart-shaped apples (cute) not withstanding, no-one knows what the "fruit"was. It may not even have been any "fruit" in the sense of a "fruit" that grows on a "tree", but rather is a simile or metaphor. What matter most is that they ate it and God told them what would happen if they did eat it.

Humans were free to do anything God permitted them to do in obedience to His directions -- "Go forth and multiply", "rule over the creatures of the earth", "fill the earth and subdue it", "name the creatures of the earth", "work the garden", "rest now", "walk and talk with Me", "eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

As for sex, the Genesis simply won't allow the assumption that sex is bad or that sex is the "forbidden fruit". Sex is front and centre in the Genesis account. God is busy telling everything on earth to "go forth and multiply", to have sex, to copulate -- often and with abundant results! God creates a "suitable helper" (an equal) for Adam, one who he can have a relationship with, a "wife", a sexual partner. The commentary "thus a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become one flesh" clearly indicates that the sexual act is seen as a return to the original oneness that Adam and Eve shared and the "oneness' of Adam with the "part" (not "rib") from which Eve was formed. They were naked and without shame, going forth and multiplying like all the other critters around them. I picture a nice grassy bank, all the critters having fun and frolicking, no harsh sun, it's nice a warm, they're naked. And both must have been quite intrigued with all the new stuff they were experiencing. I think the results are obvious.


As for "in the day that you eat of it you will surely die", the context is clear, eating the fruit brought death. Not instant death, but death nonetheless. There is no way to fix the exact meaning of the expression, but I believe it meant that they were meant to live forever in this perfect paradise in total harmony with God, each other, and nature by eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life. Disobeying God and eating the other fruit caused a rupture in that perfect world and prevented them form eating of the the fruit of the Tree of Life. Thus they are banished from the Garden and without the fruit of the Tree of Life they eventually die.

What exactly that fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil imparted is not fully understood. Certainly it was something that changed them from innocents to not. But I think the major point being made is that they disobeyed God and listened to the Serpent. Here are a few things I've learned along the way:

1) There is no indication that God did not plan on eventually letting them eat this "fruit". He may well have meant the prohibition to be a for a time. As is perfectly normal for a parent. There is also the other tree, the tree of life, in the same area. It may be that they were supposed to eat of the tree of life prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so that they wouldn't "die". I don't know. And neither does anyone else. But I do think it's reasonable.

2) Genesis 2:25 states, "The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. but after eating they immediately saw that they were naked, covered themselves and hid themselves for God. Along with an obvious loss of innocence there is a separation from God, from each other (SHE gave me the fruit), and from nature (Cursed is the ground because of you).

Sex is constantly seen in a bad light throughout the Bible.
That simply isn't so. I mean, read The Song of Solomon! Somesexual activity is presented as unacceptable (adultery, for example) but the blanket statement above is completely untrue.
 godiam
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 84
original sin
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:02:43 PM
The truth is out there! Just have to know where to look. lol

there is nothing outside of you!
the truth is within where it has always been!
if you search for a god out side yourself,
you will never find her!
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 85
original sin
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:55:55 PM
So many opinions on original sin of the bible. IMO I think it was blaming the fruit transgression on one another. "God it wasn't me it was the women, no God it wasn't me it was the nasty snake" LOL... anyways prior to patriarchal religion there was matriarchal religion and the snake or serpent was the female's "spirit guide" so to speak. Ancient writings have been found to support these past belief systems. Archeologist have found statues with these goddesses. In order for patriarchy to fully suppress matriarchy enimity needed to be placed between the female and the serpent. Christainity successfully accomplishes this.
 Skyliner1001
Joined: 5/26/2007
Msg: 86
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original sin
Posted: 7/7/2008 6:05:50 AM
Indeed! Have you read "When GOD was a Woman?" It explores this matter in great detail.

The story of Adam and Eve in Genesis certainly leaves many unanswered questions, not the least of which is what, exactly, is "original sin". We do not see this phrase used in the Bible, so I would think that this idea is formualted by "the church".

IF humans were meant to "be fruitful and multiply" AND "Death" did not exist, humans would quickly overpopulate the earth! Then, of course, there is the problem of an all-knowing GOD having the pre-knowledge that humans would sin and that GOD would need to sacrifice his own son (Gender reference for grammer only) to save the creation GOD could have made perfect in the first place.
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 87
original sin
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:25:39 AM

IF humans were meant to "be fruitful and multiply" AND "Death" did not exist, humans would quickly overpopulate the earth!

Not necessarily. The command to be fruitful and multiply is also "and fill the Earth". It's reasonable to presume that the point was to fill, not overfill, and there could well have been a mechanism built into the system that slowed or stopped births. Or maybe these perfect humans would make the transition into "heaven" painlessly and without death. We'll never know because the Fall changed all that.
 skypoetone
Joined: 3/24/2005
Msg: 88
original sin
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:09:14 PM

IF humans were meant to "be fruitful and multiply" AND "Death" did not exist, humans would quickly overpopulate the earth!


and


The command to be fruitful and multiply is also "and fill the Earth". It's reasonable to presume that the point was to fill, not overfill, and there could well have been a mechanism built into the system that slowed or stopped births.


Lots of speculation and suppositions going on here, personally I would hope that the foundation of any belief would have something less dubious and more positive. It kind of leaves me cold.
 califboomergirl
Joined: 11/22/2006
Msg: 89
original sin
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:21:06 PM
After the fall, God, in His mercy, banished them from the Garden so they could not eat from the tree of Life and be locked forever in the sinful, dead state with not hope of redemption.

The very first religious act was when they formed the "First Church of the Fig Leaf' and sewd fig leaves to cover their nakedness (their sin and separation from God). It was man''s first attempt to bridge the gap between himself and God with his own works. God clothed them, instead, with animal skins, which means that an animal had to shed its blood first, a picture of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, since it is later state that "the life of the flesh is in the blood" and "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. "
 romanticoptimist
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 90
original sin
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:22:35 PM

I said: The command to be fruitful and multiply is also "and fill the Earth". It's reasonable to presume that the point was to fill, not overfill, and there could well have been a mechanism built into the system that slowed or stopped births.

skypoetone said: Lots of speculation and suppositions going on here, personally I would hope that the foundation of any belief would have something less dubious and more positive. It kind of leaves me cold

Well, in the absence of hard factual knowledge, I'm left with the application of my imagination and some level of rational thought with which to attempt an explanation. That it doesn't meet your usual criteria comes as no surprise. Maybe you can come up with a better answer than you use cynicism. As for your heating problems, crank up the thermostat.
 consigliere31
Joined: 4/1/2008
Msg: 91
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original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:05:27 AM


IF humans were meant to "be fruitful and multiply" AND "Death" did not exist, humans would quickly overpopulate the earth!


and



The command to be fruitful and multiply is also "and fill the Earth". It's reasonable to presume that the point was to fill, not overfill, and there could well have been a mechanism built into the system that slowed or stopped births.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lots of speculation and suppositions going on here, personally I would hope that the foundation of any belief would have something less dubious and more positive. It kind of leaves me cold.


As I understand there was no command given to the first Adam to be fruitful and multiply, and the command in Genesis 1 regarding the creation of mankindthat is made into the image of God, 'to be fruitful and multiply', is referring to those who have been been born of the Spirit and image of Christ. The same command is more specifically given by Christ to His disciples, when Jesus says, "Go and preach the gospel in all the world making disciples of all the nations.",. The fruit that is being discussed in Genesis 1 is the same fruit that Christ speaks of being manifest through the implanting of His Word as also spoken in

John 15:8
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

As far as I can see from scripture, the first man Adam was given the responsibility of working the garden, and Eve was his helpmate....After they disobeyed all that was spoken to Adam by God, was regarding curses that would follow, and nothing of being a subduer of the earth, or being fruitful and multiplying.

It is my undersdtanding that Genesis 1 is prophetic, and seems to be the only possible understanding the way Genesis 1:26 speaks the verse...

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

......this is a prophetic utterance, speaking of something to unfold futuristicly, and the following verse,

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

is being spoken prophetically as well, in the context of calling something that is not, as though it already is..this principle of God calling prophetic things to come as though they already exist is seen in Romans 4..

17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and CALLS THOSE THINGS WHICH DO NOT EXIST AS THOUGH THEY DID; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”
 Ordieth
Joined: 2/12/2008
Msg: 92
original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:10:15 AM
1st earth,3rd earth...middle earth either way its a bull**** story developed to convert the unknowing in the cradle so that by the time they can make a choice its too late...i mean come on its hard not to believe something that was fed to you with your mothers milk.......but since sin dosent exist original sin cant either in my mind... plus does that mean that no one went to heaven before baptism?.because they were all sinners from the get go and that no just worthy men existed amongst the pagan hordes of yesteryear...hardly seems plausible..thats just my opinion
 skypoetone
Joined: 3/24/2005
Msg: 93
original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:28:44 AM
romanticoptimist, my dear fellow, we are ALL left with our imaginations... however, what is "rational" to you may well be less so to others. I have never been bold enough, nor would I be, to express my belief as an explanation in terms of truth, and pray tell me what my criteria is?

BTW, thanks for the compliment, cynicism is quite healthy :)


Cynicism is one of the most striking of all the Hellenistic philosophies. It offered people the possibility of happiness and freedom from suffering in an age of uncertainty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynics
 quietjohn2
Joined: 12/6/2004
Msg: 94
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original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 8:50:39 AM

As I understand there was no command given to the first Adam to be fruitful and multiply, and the command in Genesis 1 regarding the creation of mankindthat is made into the image of God, 'to be fruitful and multiply', is referring to those who have been been born of the Spirit and image of Christ
Well, you quote Genesis 1:27, but then miss out the verse directly following it, 1:28. Did you run out of steam, or doesn't it mean what is so clearly seems to mean?
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,

Or is this just another example of the religious 'cognoscenti' taking words out of context and attempting to blind with anti-reality?


i hate how some people are so condascending thinking they're just so much "smarter" because they've "figure it out", that there is no God. you have your believe (of no God), and i have mine! i don't understand the need to belittle others about the difference.
You mean like those people who figured out that sex is bad so we shouldn't have sex education in schools, nor encourage condom use as a public health measure? Belittling others about 'the difference' is squat compared to the persecution inflicted by various 'Godly' factions. If anything turns people from God, or at least joining any organized following of God, it must be the condescending, holier-than-thou attitude of those religious followers who know they've "figured it out", and insist everyone follows their way.


Nope. Comes right out of the teachings of "the church." Original sin is the sin of birth. All babies are born in sin.
Isn't this just an example of someone who "figured it out"? Does the lack of any biblical quote mean that there isn't one? What exactly does 'teachings of "the church"' mean? The pedantic pronouncement of some churchperson who "figured it out"? Maybe, as Ray said earlier, a scare tactic to facilitate manipulation. Now we're electing presidents on the basis of such "smart" pronouncements.
 consigliere31
Joined: 4/1/2008
Msg: 95
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original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:52:23 AM

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,

Or is this just another example of the religious 'cognoscenti' taking words out of context and attempting to blind with anti-reality?



I believe my point was as I stated, that this command was never given to the first Adam...and the verse you share does not specify the command as being given to Adam and Eve pesonally. In fact when this command was spoken, Adam was yet to be actually formed from the dust of the ground...the creation of Adam, begins in Genesis 2, after the prophetic purpose of God is laid out for all to see in Genesis 1.

Christ is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation...and no where is Adam spoken of being in the image of God.

Mankind's destiny is to be made into the image of God through Christ,..... this was God's plan from the very beginning, as Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world. God never patterned mankind's destiny to follow after Adam and Eve's earthly image, They were only the beginning of an unfolding plan, which included mankind falling into sin and being redeemed from sin and death, as the perfect plan of God.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Original sin/death, whatever a person wants to call it is born into every human that enters the world. The wages of sin is death. And this judgment of sin was placed on the entire population of earth in the garden, and passed on to Adam's seed. Just as the judgment of righteousness was placed upon the earth's population at the cross of Christ, and the judgment of righteousness is now placed on all of mankind because of what Christ has done.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 Guy Named Ray
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 96
original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:14:37 PM

the creation of Adam, begins in Genesis 2, after the prophetic purpose of God is laid out for all to see in Genesis 1.
This is how christians get around the discrepancies between the sequence of events in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. They will tell you that Genesis 1 is god's plan in outline form, but he doesn't actually carry out that plan until chapter 2.

Christians have all kinds of reasons for the bible not saying what it actually says. There biggest reason being that unless you have the spirit of god in you, you can't understand the bible. Only the holders of the key of knowledge given to them by the spirit can understand the bible. Therefore, they have to interpret it for you so you will come around to believing what they believe.

I said before original sin is a scare tactic to make people feel guilty that the first two humans on earth couldn't listen to the god that created them because he gave them free will, but according to christians, god was so mad at adam and eve for sinning that he made it so the sin they committed would be passed down to all generations for ever and ever. That's why christians say everybody is born in sin and all need to be saved and come to the understanding of the glory of god for ever and ever amen.
 consigliere31
Joined: 4/1/2008
Msg: 97
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original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:30:04 PM


Christians have all kinds of reasons for the bible not saying what it actually says. There biggest reason being that unless you have the spirit of god in you, you can't understand the bible. Only the holders of the key of knowledge given to them by the spirit can understand the bible. Therefore, they have to interpret it for you so you will come around to believing what they believe.

I said before original sin is a scare tactic to make people feel guilty that the first two humans on earth couldn't listen to the god that created them because he gave them free will, but according to christians, god was so mad at adam and eve for sinning that he made it so the sin they committed would be passed down to all generations for ever and ever. That's why christians say everybody is born in sin and all need to be saved and come to the understanding of the glory of god for ever and ever amen.


Hello ray, My intentions are not to put forth a christian doctrine as you might think, my purpose is to investigate the scriptures. It doesnt sound like you have anything to dispute except that Christians form one mind on all biblical issues, which is not true.

My point is made upon biblical exegesis, you are welcome to dispute my theories and understandings, and I am open to be proven wrong....but if any is sincerly interested in actually investigating the scriptures...I Cor. 15 does a fine job at explaining this in detail..and filling in the peices of the puzzle regarding the prophetic utterances of the Day of creation spoken in Genesis 1.

I Cor. 15

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 98
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original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 4:07:20 PM
The original sin is Birth....The gates of hell is your mothers womb....You enter into a world of Sin, thats all you Christians need to know. Christ never told you about heaven only Hell. This place. Wake up,, you will never understand what a heaven is...there is a connection....Sex...Yep....Sex. In Sex, you mind expands, in sex, you body tingles that of another reality. Sex is the big taboo. Why?

This ain't no sermon but a wake up call. This is a form of Hell. You all may think its so wonderfull, especially if you got the bucks. But it ain't. This world is Sin. Thats all Christ ever told you, and the journey out is difficult. Especially if you like it here. And if this world is a sin, then G-d wants it, Sin is then a short gift to you, to make you understand. Hey, only you suffer the pain.
 consigliere31
Joined: 4/1/2008
Msg: 99
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original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 4:36:53 PM


You enter into a world of Sin, thats all you Christians need to know.


Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to throw us christians a bone. However your opinion is your own and has not been supported by scripture imo, so the bone didn't taste very good, if you even care for feedback.

There is much more to understand for those who can get past the elementary principles of grace and judgment, and move on as God permits, to a greater understanding concerning the rhetorical question...'What is man?"
 aspiring_angel
Joined: 1/25/2006
Msg: 100
original sin
Posted: 7/8/2008 4:45:36 PM
I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so forgive me if I'm redundant.

As I understood it, "original sin" referred to one's birth. For example, Mary was born free of original sin since her's was an immaculate conception. (and no, I'm not referring to her conceiving Jesus, but her own conception (via St. Anne's fervant prayer)).

As the story goes, she went on to conceive Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Jesus was without original sin due to his special conception.

The apple? I guess I was taught incorrectly.
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