| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 8:57:50 AM | I was raised in the wild by Hippies. We didn't follow the modern practice of equating sex with other commodities, to be bought and sold. These are some of the ideas that belong to sex-as-object:
1. Women have what men want and should not give it up easily because it is more valuable than that.
The trouble with this idea, I think, is it objectifies sex as being merely the use of the woman's vagina for intercourse so the man can have a fun orgasm. It sets sex aside as just another activity, like a massage, or a hair-cut. It also prevents women from enjoying sex because they have to be guardians of the sex vault, keeping it safe from robbers. To me, sexuality is another aspect of a relationship, between two human beings. Both give and get equally when it's right. Both benefit from the love they make together. It's like the difference between having a child as man and wife, or paying a surrogate mother to bear the child and deliver it. The difference is the meaning of the experience. I don't think a woman can be romantic when she views herself as paymaster and men as workers earning time in her vagina. It's not a humane connection. It is purely mercenary and detached.
2. All men want is sex and they will do anything to get it.
This may be true for some men at some times but in general terms I think it's the opposite of how men are. Men and women both have feelings and want romantic connections. Romance is the expression of the emotions of affection, and men feel affectionate towards women. It's part of sexuality, unless for some reason their emotional feelings have become perverse and detached.
Beyond those two examples is a whole culture of sex-for-sale. It includes the rituals of adornment and the idea of virginity being sacred somehow. Later on in life it perverts romance into a kind of psychological tactic to negotiate power in relationships. "If you want sex from me, then you will please me and do what I want." I think this is only for people who can't have straightforward conversations about their needs. It strikes me as manipulative.
The women I have met who were romantic had no trouble finding romantic men. The ones who are not romantic themselves seem never to be able to find what they are looking for. I think it all stems from the outlook a person has. If they see love as being about buying and selling affection and romance, then what they seek is an illusion. But if they see romance as being a sincere expression of feeling, they have eyes that can notice it.
In any case, to treat sex as a reward for good behavior is more like an incestuous parent-child relationship than love between adults. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 9:06:27 AM | For me anyway sex is still something very valuable that I don't give away easily. And I think that -- in the majority of cases -- women still assign a higher value to that kind of intimacy than men do (I know that's changing as well). So maybe what I really need to see is some serious effort and sustained interest from someone I'm ultimately going to sleep with. Like .. show me you really value me before I trust you with this thing.
ok... right here we get to the crux of the whole issue.... you have put the sex label on it and thats exactly the point im trying to make....
for some of us sex is justa little part of a much begger picture; a relationship to me is the sum of all the parts... i wouldnt dream of staying with someone just because the sex was good... i have to feel wanted and loved or i have no time....... | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 9:14:53 AM | 1) women want their men to be romantic with them but dont feel any obligation to be romantic themselves.
2) they think its the guy that has to make the effort and feel no inclination to making an effort themselves.
huh???
this is why there is a book men are from mars, and women are from venus.
when you take the game out of the game there is nothing left to play.
WHAT IS IN IT FOR US?????????
again, huh???
when I see something like this I can only think the poor soul does not understand.
in response to this, i have to ask a question...... what does romance mean to you and to the post that was before this quoted one?
to me romance is not just the candles and dinner thing (that in my experience is an expensive affair that is only enjoyed by the gold digger that is enjoying ones hospitality....lol) it is far more.... it is the little touches and looks in crowded places, it is being able to express ones feelings no matter where or when, it is that feeling even when you are alone of being together....!
it is not and has never been holding doors open or seeing someone to their car, that is chivalry and is also something else that is dying (dont get me started on that one just yet...!)
you guys have all fallen into the very trap that i have been talking about here.... you have mostly all put a value on it; dinner, candles, sex, favours, etc.... that is not what its about.... romance is an action that is inspired by feelings. why is it that it should be universally accepted that it should only be the man that should express this action? why not women??????
ok? do you understand what im saying? | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 9:26:24 AM | Placing a value on something and selling or trading it are two completely different things. I value my son more than anything .. he's not for sale. I also value myself. I'm not for sale either, but I will *share* myself and my life with someone deserving and trustworthy. How do I determine that? Case by case. And when I say share myself I mean body, mind and soul. I'm really just talking about trying to cull out the men who are purely sexually motivated. If a man has shown real and sustained interest in me over some time then he is most likely looking for more than sex. And because sex has emotional implications for me, I want to be careful who I'm getting involved with that way.
Seriously now, you could probably fit all the *women* who ever told a man they loved him just so they could get in his pants in the car with the broken door.
As to the majority of men not being strongly motivated by sex ... how bout I give you access to my PoF account for one week? If you last the week I'd be very excited to hear all about it.
Love romance. Romance to me is flowery and gushy and sweet. I'm looking for a love/lover who is a trusted friend. And believe you me, I'm going to have to dodge and wade through a ton of players and sex addicts to find him.
Donations to a charity in lieu of flowers. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 9:32:23 AM | | davina, can i ask you... have you ever been inspired to be romantic with someone? did they ever invoke the whole fireworks flowers and fairies thing in you and make you feel everytime you thought about them that your chest would burst? if not, then you need to experience this because its the best feelingin the world... if you have i dont know how you can have the opinion that you have that romance is slushy....... | |
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Kaltes
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Joined: 12/19/2005
Msg: 32 | |
| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 9:39:13 AM | Yes, it is the action inspired by feelings. I don't know where someone came up with the idea that a candle-light dinner was a sign of a gold digger (kind of pissed at that comment). I am an excellent cook and have been known to spend 3 or 4 hours cooking and setting up the entire atmosphere (taught to me by Mr. Frenchie) from selecting the right wine, to flowers, to the perfect music that fits the meal; for a night of romance. I don't recall him opening his wallet once. But it takes a lot of planning on my part. (Considering that I have a busy career). THAT is an action inspired by feelings. The effort to say you are special.
OP..the definition of romance goes from the very simple things that you are talking about; holding hands while strolling down the street, swinging on the porch swing, etc....But it is also the other things that show you are thinking of them (outlining a heart in the steam of the bathroom mirror) or doing special things for them (I love surprises).
And by the way...I went away for 15 minutes and this turned into a sex thing...am I always the last to know? Still stressing over Valentines Day  | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 9:40:01 AM | 6 degrees: The concept of sex for money/goods is a distortion of what's being expressed here. None of the women here have said anything that. It has nothing to do with being wined and dined, or anything else of any monetary value.
Understand too that you personally -- as a soul mate seeking romantic -- are very likely a exception to the general case here. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 9:54:16 AM | The big difference between men and women is that women have killer standards 
...and they stick to them.When a woman has a long line of men waiting to seduce her, she can have the best pick of the crop. Why would she settle for anything less?
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 10:14:17 AM | | davina, the concept of sex for goods is exactly what my original thread sublect was about anthough i never stated that exactly, it is what i had in mind.... essentially, the man has different expectations of what his responsibility and role is in the relationship... i am probably in danger of applying too much sciency stuff to the issue here but it really does seem to me that men and wmen are different species and just happen to have one or 2 things that corespond....lol | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 10:17:46 AM | | kaltes, cooking dinner for someone is not what i had in mind... i truly admire a woman that takes the time and yes, usually hours, to cook a meal for her beau, i was talking about the type of woman that thinks nothing of accepting a guy taking her to the ivy for dinner..... i prefer to cook for someone too, i am quite a good cook even if i say so myself..... | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 10:42:49 AM | 6d ... sorry, I thought it was more about primal drives. Also earlier I tried to write that love (is not equal to) romance and the site filtered out my brackets.
So have I ever felt/been romantic? Not in the fireworks way .. nothing so explosive and heady. I have sat on a park bench in the rain in front of Notre Dame Cathedral with my head on someone's shoulder and felt pretty blissful. I have run through the streets of the Ginza (again in warm, steamy rain) hand in hand with someone and felt absolutely exhilerated. Just a couple of weeks ago I was downtown cheek to cheek (literally) dancing merenge with a Cuban man who just swept the floor with me. And my heart was bursting and I had a grin that didn't go away for about six hours. I've had my moments.
So if it was really about money, then I'll say that in my case I'm always touched when someone offers to treat me (I always offer to pay half). I always get the next time if not.
As for returning the gestures romantically ... I've been thinking about this. Not many men are really receptive to romantic gestures are they? I mean really ... and Kaltes said something like this earlier .. all interpretations aside, how many men really like having flowers sent to their office? Or finding love notes in their briefcases or sports bags? | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 11:51:22 AM | | your last point is a good one... i think there is a masculinity issue there.. for the record, i love having flowers sent to me and finding little notes... i just never had it.....sob! lol | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 12:26:18 PM | So 6d clarify something for me, please ... is this discussion about who should pay on a date? Or is it about "gestures" or "effort" expended?
Also ... why doesn't your profile here outline your romantic needs and wants? | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 12:27:30 PM |
6degrees
men are from mars......
1) women want their men to be romantic with them but dont feel any obligation to be romantic themselves.
2) they think its the guy that has to make the effort and feel no inclination to making an effort themselves.
I can understand the jist of this. This is pretty much they way the MAJORITY of women act (not ALL). I quite honestly am attracted to the opposite—a woman who can confidently and in a classy way display her feelings for me without the eye-lash batting. I’m not much for typical date game-playing.
I don’t agree with the general concept of the one way-street that woman have something men need (vagina) and both men and women know that. I don’t prescribe myself to that notion. Of course this attitude is prevalent, but it really doesn’t make any sense. Women wonder why men watch so much porno—men sense this “vagina” attitude in women and say “why bother, I’ll just watch porno”. Intercourse is a two-way street, at least that’s the way it is for me, the sex is just so much better when I know my lady is COMPLETELY into it, not playing some “vagina game”.
I don’t doubt that many women are very romantic. I also wouldn’t liken men’s dating habits to “hunting”, as hopefully no women are killed. It’s kind of simple why many women wonder why men don’t appreciate their romantic nature. Men typically go for the really attractive woman. They are in short supply. They tend to overlook the romantic-type. The woman in really short supply needs to actually be UN-romantic. She’s got to be that way to get rid of the endless number of dudes lined up to date her.
Personally, I don’t want a “challenge” from my partner. What keeps me coming back to my partner is the feeling that will continually mutually discover things about ourselves and each other. A “dating challenge” to me is a dating game and I’m adverse to nonsense like that. I also value communicative skills in a partner. So if my partner feels aggressive, I want to know that, and I want her to express that to me. Same is true if she doesn’t feel particularly aggressive. To me, a woman acting like a challenge is someone who doesn’t understand her feelings very well, and is not a good communicator. Someone mentioned how sex is something she values and it is not given away easily. That’s how I feel about the art of “making love”. Sex is like the bottom rung of the love-making ladder. When you are in a relationship and wish to fully express your love and feelings, do it. Of course I’m assuming you feel trust. But I can’t blame a lady to withhold sex if she feels that is the primary motivation for her man’s behavior. But I still don’t think that’s healthy, I would be concentrating on communicating my feelings, and if I don’t get a reciprocation, I end the relationship.
Also, that “He's Just Not That Into You” stuff is a bunch of crap. The reason someone is not interested in someone is usually because of offensive behavior and ineffective communication skills—this is true both for males and females. If someone is not into you and you want them to be with you, have a discussion and figure out why someone is unhappy. If they can’t express this to you, you have a reason to dump them. If they express it to you in a reasonable way and you can’t provide what they want, well then they have a reason to dump you. Again it’s communication that’s paramount.
Men probably do have somewhat of a difficult time telling some women exactly what he’s thinking. This is most likely due to a woman’s overreaction to the feedback. Ladies, if you really feel like all men do this to you, it’s most likely a behavior problem on your part, not on your man’s part. That shoe also fits on a man’s foot too.
Things are different today than they were 20 years ago. There a much bigger sense of “instant gratification” due to what I call “information overload”. A site like POF gives one the opportunity to communicate with thousands of otherwise inaccessible people. Many more entertainment choices. Cell phones, text messaging, e-mail, technology advances, etc. Everybody wants it now and is impatient when they don’t get what the want IMMEDIATELY. I sense this attitude in the dating world. If someone doesn’t “do it for you” right away, they are discarded unceremoniously and replaced immediately with a new interest.
About women who equate POF men to all men: I think what you got here because POF is a free site, are lots of desperate men who are looking for quick scores. POFers are really just a small subset of what is actually going on in the dating world today, it’s not a definitive sample by any means.
If anything, sex is slightly more important to a man. But not much. There are lots of women who are what I’d classify nymphs. They more than counterbalance the cold fishes.
If romance is dead, it’s likely due to a “feminista” attitude among SOME women—one bad apple spoils the bunch for some guys. Before I get attacked here, what I mean is the “I am woman hear me roar” feminism. Most of the women who I associate with are truly equals with their male counterparts. Why there needs to be a feminist movement in the US is being my comprehension. Also, there exists a huge imbalance in today’s divorce courts. This makes men gun-shy and probably is the root cause of the lessening of romantic attitudes in men today.
Ok that was enough of a male vs. female rant from me. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 12:39:45 PM | | bike_man ... we were talking about new dating situations not existing relationships. And a woman holding back on sex until she's sure that a man who's interested in her is interested in that and more. Not about women blackmailing their partners with sex. That would be awful. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 2:43:30 PM | Romance is a two way street --- you guys are suppose to bring the trinkets and the boose and us women, well some of us, will bring the garters and the shoes.......who is suppose to ask first, well, not too clear on that anymore but ask the right woman and I'm sure you'll get all the romance you can handle!!!!!LOL (now go and read those threads that criticize women who have sex too fast and tell me, which is it!!!!)  | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 4:13:50 PM | | bikeman, i agree with most of what you have said here, i have said throughout this thread that i was probably in danger of generalising and i have had to do that to make the point and my point is reinforced by what bigsmile has just said..... who says men bring the booze and trinkets? when is this reciprocated? as i said before...WHATS IN IT FOR ME? | |
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ksue44
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Joined: 6/20/2005
Msg: 44 | |
| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 4:27:18 PM | OP - Happy Belated Birthday to you!
Mine is coming up this Saturday and I turn the big 50!
I'd turn you over my knee and whip your ass if I could, but you're too damn far, if this isn't a generalization, then I'm not a real woman! Women are romantic believe it or not, and if they aren't shame on them! You know what I love to do for a man? Give him a wonderful massage! I love to lightly run my fingertips on his body! I have even sent men flowers (no - not roses, I wouldn't want to embarass them)... I've even left a pair of my knickers in his brief case...
Uh oh - is this censored???
You know what the problem is with these boards?? I hear more griping, complaining, and "woe is me", that no one does anything for me.... Folks, it is an effort on BOTH parties to do the romance! It's not just up to the men, nor is it up to the women. We're so darned use to taking each other for granted, that we forget the small things! | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 4:59:25 PM | | 6 degrees........that's exactly what you don't get....the moment you focus on "what's in it for me???" all the romance goes out the window......you're griping that probably your WIFE didn't give you the birthday you wanted, my guess is that you've spent your relationship having one big "poor me" party. No wonder you can't find any romance in life!!! And if you are in a relationship and on-line frequenting singles web sites, believe me ---- your partner can sense the betrayal and it undermines any romance and much more. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 5:33:23 PM | | No she can't. She's in the kitchen doing the dishes and whsitling a happy tune. Ignorance is bliss. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 5:49:41 PM | Let’s face it; we men are our own enemies. A woman is peppered with men’s attentions from the get-go. From the very first moment a female looks like she is ready for our attention we pounce. A womans responses to men is moulded, to a large extent, by men’s actions.
Look at it this way, if you were at a dance class and women kept coming up to you for a dance. Would you really be bothered to ask a woman for a dance? They are asking you! So why should you bother.
I’ve know too many men who play the numbers game and they develop a tough skin, because they expect rejection. They know full well that out of 10 tries they will get more than 1 that are interested.
The guy who waits for the right “one” will not get anything (only by luck), because most women are trained (by men’s actions) to expect pro-active action. | |
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| men are from mars......
Posted: 2/9/2006 6:13:52 PM | @ Donut,
I have done the same exact same thing as you, even had flowers delivered. I remember I put a note in the sandwhich i made for my bf at the time and he bit into it. He acknowledged it but that was about it. wish he would of chocked <------------------ bad joke only kidding
It's when your not looking you find that rare "one of a kind". I do have to say, I am meeting a gentleman tomorrow that I met here on POF; and he seems to be what I have been searching for. But I have no expectations that way I won't be let down if he or I dont want to persure builiding on our already fun and exciting friendship. It seemed as if we clicked from the first mail....well the time has come. I am filled with aniticpation and excitment....doesnt even compare to anyone in my entire life. I can tell he is genuine.....what do i have to lose right? If I dont meet him, I'll never know...but I think I already do. 
The last guy I met through POF that asked me out (now he was from planet X) LOL Since he was driving down to my city, I planned and paid for our first date... it was very unique I
must add, anyhow guess what? Not even a thank you!!! The nerve. BYW: He makes 100k+ a year. LOL. It's not the $$, but not even a thank you?? c'mon. He tried to ask me out a few more times, I politely declined and finially the calls amd mails stopped. Thank goodness, I hate to be mean.
Good luck in the fishing game,
~ttuff~ | |
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