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 GarryC
Joined: 4/12/2006
Msg: 76
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Married ladies that fool aroundPage 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Amen!! Some good points!!
 cocytus
Joined: 11/9/2007
Msg: 77
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/6/2007 9:17:03 AM

Are there many ladies that like to have a man on the side for sex only and still maintain their marriage. Is it only men that fool around and lie how bad they have it at home. I have a sexless marriage but still do not want to leave her. So I look for an outside interest in a friend and a lover. It is hard to find both a friend and a lover all in one. Am I the only one that feels this way.


If your marriage is "sexless"...then it is likely a number of other "lesses" as well....
Get counseling...or walk...
Cheating usually ends badly
 seatide
Joined: 5/31/2006
Msg: 78
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/6/2007 11:38:09 AM

* I do not want a divorce.
* I do not want an affair.
* I've read book after book.
* Visited dozens of marriage help web sites.
* Spoken to councilors and Ministers
* I do not want to continue on as if everything is fine.

Something that my children will swear to: I have done all that marriage councilors suggest to no avail. In fact my children say their memories of their youth are of being and doing things with me and little with their mother. My married daughter resents my wife and cannot believe that I haven't left or found another woman.

SO I ask: from a woman's perspective what should I do?


I really feel for you being in a dead end marriage. I also don't care for the righteous people who wave the "marriage vows" banner.
Marriage vows are not one sided and they apply equally to both partners and have more than one subtle meaning.
Based on what you wrote, your marriage is not resurrectable. You tried and walked into a brick wall. You have two options: continue sacrificing your wants, needs and happiness for your kids and mother who seem to have their own life and happiness or explain to your wife that you are not ready to continue the same way. Make sure that you do not use idle threats, if your last ditch attempt goes nowhere, you need to be prepared to get out. None of the options are easy.
 Tramp
Joined: 2/8/2007
Msg: 79
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/6/2007 2:55:54 PM
Red, I was going to ask if they sell warm Dolls...
Sometime, we men do not reason.
 redarcangel
Joined: 1/12/2007
Msg: 80
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/7/2007 2:19:50 AM
Actually Tramp..

I believe they sell life-like dolls..all mechanically made to appear and feel "real"..and..it only costs a few thousand dollars. Of course..she can't go out for pizza or a coffee later though.
 redarcangel
Joined: 1/12/2007
Msg: 81
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/7/2007 2:54:07 AM
Seatide..

Marriage vows aren't subtle..and they aren't meant to be taken subtley. That isn't waving a banner..that's stating facts! 2 wrongs don't make a right! Some of us took our marriage vows very seriously..just as they were posed to us..not as an accent on the "wedding". Righteousness has nothing to do with understanding the meaning of the vows taken. That would be intelligence. Intelligent enough to understand there are NO hidden or other agendas to the meaning of the vows. They are what they are..for a reason..this reason. Talk to anyone who has the power to marry 2 people about the definitions of the marriage vows before you come off with subtleties and innuendos of the those vows.

If the OP tried everything..he wouldn't be in the situation to pose such a question. He'd be divorced and looking for the right woman to suit him and all his needs. The marriage is dead if all else failed. All else..as in..divorce is the option that's left if he's at all serious about wanting a good and meaningful life with sex as a part of it..not the whole relationship. Cheating is not an option..but only deepens the problems that are already taking place..and does make the partner cheating as guilty of breaking the vows as it does the partner not having sex. As I said..2 wrongs don't make a right! Nothing subtle about the vows..and nothing subtle about the consequences of breaking those vows.
 firstlight
Joined: 8/30/2005
Msg: 82
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/7/2007 7:49:12 AM
My dear cousin married a man that she fooled around with while they were both married to other people. I talk to her online quite often. One thing she told me about her new marriage that sticks with me: "It's a very volatile relationship. There is no real trust because we both know the other is a cheat."
 seatide
Joined: 5/31/2006
Msg: 83
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/7/2007 8:46:02 AM
Well Red, Marriage vows are very noble, no doubt about that.
When I said "subtle", I meant underlying issues in a marriage which are not part of the honorable text of the vows, but in fact carry the largest impact on any marriage, aka SEX.
Any person who forgoes having intimacy with a partner who is available to him/her, breaks and dishonors a part of the marriage vows, which in turn causes additional erosion of the marriage. What does a person who feels neglected and justifiably so do? Stick it out no matter what or just drops it and leaves. It is unrealistic to expect either, due mostly to life's circumstances. Loyalty and honoring vows have to be earned on a continuous basis and than some.
It is unfair to fault people who seek and find other solutions to the problem in an attempt to keep a marriage intact and each case has it's own merit or the lack of.
Unfortunately in our society, marriage vows are expandable, the fact being that more than 50 percent of couples get divorced due to marriage voes being disrespected and unfulfilled.
I have a dear friend and a dive associate, who has faced this issue for years. He loves his family dearly and is not willing to walk away, but in the last few years has searched for a solution to the lack of sex in his life. I for one, have never faulted him for doing so, he was pushed into this type of a "no win" situation by an arrogant partner who is not willing to even concede to a problem.
 markybolton_OP
Joined: 7/20/2006
Msg: 84
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/8/2007 4:07:12 PM
Let stop the adultrey and take your butt back to your husband. No excuse for either party to cheat!
 AgelessWonder
Joined: 4/12/2006
Msg: 85
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/8/2007 4:30:19 PM

Any person who forgoes having intimacy with a partner who is available to him/her, breaks and dishonors a part of the marriage vows, which in turn causes additional erosion of the marriage. What does a person who feels neglected and justifiably so do? Stick it out no matter what or just drops it and leaves. It is unrealistic to expect either, due mostly to life's circumstances. Loyalty and honoring vows have to be earned on a continuous basis and than some.
It is unfair to fault people who seek and find other solutions to the problem in an attempt to keep a marriage intact and each case has it's own merit or the lack of.
Unfortunately in our society, marriage vows are expandable, the fact being that more than 50 percent of couples get divorced due to marriage voes being disrespected and unfulfilled.


I have found that most people that cheat on a spouse, will do so whether their marriage is sexless or not. I know a lot of people who have a good sexual relationship within the marriage and still want to seek some fun on the side.

As far as the OP, we don't know what his situation is, only what he says on a dating site, and those who cheat will say just about anything... JMO
 redarcangel
Joined: 1/12/2007
Msg: 86
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/9/2007 7:14:11 AM
Well Seatide..noble..as in a noble gesture..does not begin to describe wedding vows. Maybe that's why you think they have a subtle meaning. According to the definitions in Merriam Webster (and as they were described to me prior to my past marriage)..it is a binding..the marriage license then being a binding contract. The couple are bound to one another by solem promises. How good then can either of their word be if they both break these promises to themselves as well as each other? Not very good. That just sounds to me like..if she won't put out..I'm gonna find someone else who can/will! Immature..ie tit-for tat. Two wrongs don't make a right. If the problem is "irresolvable" and all other avenues have been exhausted..and sex or abstinence means more than the vows..the marriage is over. If all..and I do mean all else has failed..and a sexless marriage is not a consideration..then as painful as it is..divorce is in order BEFORE moving on. Maybe a wake-up call with divorce being the emanating factor should be filed..that way maybe the marriage can still be saved before the documents are signed. Sometimes it takes a severe measure to wake-up the "arrogant" party..if not..the paperwork is half done. Why would you use the term arrogant anyway? I would think..blind..would be a better choice of someone that doesn't want to or can't see the forest through the trees. Then again..if your friend can't see the problem only becoming worse by cheating..that person is just as blind..or arrogant.

Main Entry: 1vow
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'vau
Etymology: Middle English vowe, from Old French vou, from Latin votum, from neuter of votus, past participle of vovere to vow; akin to Greek euchesthai to pray, vow, Sanskrit vAghat sacrificer
: a solemn promise or assertion ; specifically : one by which a person is bound to an act, service, or condition
 seatide
Joined: 5/31/2006
Msg: 87
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/9/2007 8:05:00 AM

I have found that most people that cheat on a spouse, will do so whether their marriage is sexless or not. I know a lot of people who have a good sexual relationship within the marriage and still want to seek some fun on the side.


Agreed! However, this topic deals with people who are sexually deprived by their partners and who have tried to rectify the problem unsuccessfully.
I don't think they qualify for the title of "your every day garden variety cheaters".



 novascotialass
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 88
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/9/2007 9:21:53 AM
Redarcangel: If we're using the argument that one should not cheat because of their marriage vows, then one should not leave or divorce their spouse either...or is "To death do us part" no longer part of the promise?

I think many people enter into the institution of marriage without any comprehension of what forever entails and very few are provided with the tools to avoid the breakdown of a relationship.

I think the best advice given on this thread was for the OP to communicate his intensions to his wife and see where it leads.
 Jackohio
Joined: 1/30/2007
Msg: 89
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/9/2007 7:23:31 PM
It is cheaper to keep the marriage, than pay child support............
 Argentum Crinis Philogus
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 90
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/10/2007 7:52:53 AM
It seems that there is a great deal of emphasis on vows as if there are always vows and all vows are equal. Yet, vows are typically associated with religious marriage ceremonies, betrothals, and/or handfasting. All vows are not created equal.

Sometimes there are no vows. As a matter of fact, in many states, if not all states, a marriage is a marriage when an official signs the marriage license. No vows need to be exchanged. The individuals only need to appear before the recognized official.

It is interesting that the primary focus is on fidelity and the vast majority of other vows tend to be ignored. If one spouse is unfaithful due to his/her partner denying marital rights, they are the "evil cheater" and yet the one denying is doubly guilty 1) for violating their "marriage vows" and, 2) for driving the other spouse to seek the fulfillment of their needs elsewhere.

Many individuals are under the hypnosis that divorcing, walking-away, or becoming celebate is the simple answer and yet life is much more complicated than this simplistic view.

Imposing one's own moral judgments on others is never invited and seldom appreciated. It is easy to sit in one's own world with one's own context and make judgments about the decisions and motives of others and much more difficult when in a situation themselves looking through their own filtered lens. Suddenly, those things that we might never do begin to look less like anathema.

I've worked with individuals who's spouse uses sex as a means of control by never allowing their partner to have any sexual interaction or intimacy with them. There are others who continue to ignore the problem and yet insist that the other live according to their rules. These are unilateral decisions and unilateral decisions in relationships NEVER work in the long run without damage to the relationship.

It is not my job to make moral decisions for others. Neither is it my job to impose my own morality on others regardless of their decisions. It is my job to assist people who are hurting, who are in need of help and a help them find way to process their circumstances and situations in ways that will help them attain their own defined goals and objectives.

These forums are a form of everyday therapy and as I read through the several responses, my continued strong recommendation that my clients not seek advice from friends, family, and especially strangers is reinforced. There is much danger in anecdotal advice and more danger in accepting it.

I see people when the therapy of life no longer works (the anecdotal advice of friends and family) and they are stuck. To return to seeking that advice only reinforces their stuckness and inhibits progress.

Life isn't as neat and clean as many would presume to present. Relationships are much less neat and clean than life and tend to be various forms of organized chaos with much emotion and little thought thrown in.

Whatever one decides, they also have to live with in the long run. The fact that someone asks questions on a forum suggests that they are struggling with their own moral views and are seeking ideas, thoughts, concerns, and a plethora of information in an effort to process their own situation. Rarely are they seeking permission or approval and they don't need someone's judgmental condemnation. It doesn't help. It only hinders.

What many people in the OP's situation or the situation of the other individual, and many of those who have commented don't realize or fail to consider is that one cannot control anyone outside of themselves. In the end, we are responsible for our own happiness and we each must decide our course of actions in ways that allow us to take care of ourselves and that are the best ones for us. These decisions and actions may not always be appreciated by others and even others that we care about. At the same time, others are doing what they have chosen as best for themselves at the expense of the others also. Negotiating a compromise is the best possible scenario and even better a collaborative outcome. Unfortunately, muddied thinking and uncontrolled emotions inhibit both.

Best of luck.

ACP
 Moonchild51
Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 91
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/10/2007 8:10:49 AM
Wow! That was one helluva well written answer! Yes, I have to agree. Nothing is truly so "cut and dried" in life now is it? And yes, the one who has not upheld their end of the marriage by denying sex, is as guilty as the one who seeks it elsewhere. Sad situations we humans create for ourselves.
 redarcangel
Joined: 1/12/2007
Msg: 92
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/10/2007 8:41:21 AM
Novascotialass..

I was considered dead..medically so..when my marriage split. It was till death I did part!

I was revived.

There is a difference between death and cheating..don't you agree? Isn't death of a marriage the same as death? It seems to be killing the people with sexless marriages!
 godddesss13
Joined: 7/27/2007
Msg: 93
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/10/2007 9:22:17 AM

Should I divorce her? I could, but it would devastate my children, grandchildren and my mother and I love them too much to do this.

Having been in this position, I think what you fail to see is how much it is hurting these people you love to see you so unhappy.... your children, grandchildren and mother, want what is best FOR YOU... they want YOU to be happy... that is the definition of unconditional love.

When I finally left my ex after 20 yrs, my closest friends and family were over-joyed for me..... I can still see one of my best friends screaming "YES!!!!!!!!!!!!" at the top of her lungs, out an open window as we were driving down the highway. It definitely helped validate my decision, as it was the toughest, yet smartest thing I ever did - walking out.
 seatide
Joined: 5/31/2006
Msg: 94
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/10/2007 9:25:02 AM
APC,

Your post is exceptional.
 redarcangel
Joined: 1/12/2007
Msg: 95
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Posted: 12/10/2007 12:06:34 PM
ACP...

I believe the OP asked the question..that means there was no imposition..but an opinion given by those that agreed and those that disagreed with the OP. Those are the chances an OP takes when asking others opinions..all people will not always agree with the OP.

No one here pried into the OPs life and judged the OP for not living up to their own moral standards..but were invited to give their opinions on a matter that some feel is a strongly moral act..the moment the OP asked the question.

I'm sure there are just as many of us in POF and on the forum that have seen the problems created by a controling spouse..not just with sex. However..cheating on a spouse that is controling by depriving sex is only making 2 (two..as in both) wrongs. Tit for tat mentality never works.

Morals or ethics are the principles of conduct governing an individual or group..a guiding philosophy.

If morality issues weren't a part of the marriage vows that bound the OP and the partner together in the first place..why bother asking the question? If the marriage didn't consist of ANY moral vows pertaining to the issues of cheating..why would it matter to the OP what anyone thought..or ask their opinion? I highly doubt the OP would ask or care. Morality..ie marriage vows in this case..would then not be an issue. The OP would just act on the belief the deprivation (the act put upon him) justifies (excuses) the means (the cheating)..rather than asking for validation (agreement) of continuous justifications (excuses). By stating the OP "may not have" made any such vows as cheating being an immoral act when the OP got married..is as much of an assumption. You are assuming he may not have..we assumed he had. Since the OP has not come back to give any insight..the assumptions of morality and

Seatide..

If a person that owns a car steals another one..then a person that doesn't own a car steals one..is the person that didn't own a car already..any less a thief? A thief is a thief..stealing is wrong.

So..if a person that cheats on his wife because he enjoys sexual variety..and a person cheats on his wife because he is deprived in a sexless marriage..is the person that was deprived of sex..any less a cheater? A cheater is a cheater..and cheating is wrong.

Stop looking for validation if you feel there is already justification. There is none!
 seatide
Joined: 5/31/2006
Msg: 96
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Posted: 12/10/2007 1:29:27 PM

Stop looking for validation if you feel there is already justification. There is none!


Sorry Red, this isn't a jury trial and I do not need to prove any points, much less seek validation. This is my opinion.
I am looking further than my nose and placing myself in their painful situation. Personally, I would not want to be in their shoes.
Life is much more than black and white, but it takes colored vision to see it as such.
 Moonchild51
Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 97
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Posted: 12/10/2007 1:54:24 PM
I would have to say that overall, we all KNOW it is wrong. We all have our opinions as to how this type of situation should be handled as has been evidenced here in the posts. No, two wrongs do not make a right. However, having said that, as was also pointed out, while it may not be something some of us would do, it is understandable. Does that make any sense?
 novascotialass
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 98
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Posted: 12/10/2007 3:18:01 PM
Red

I wasn't insinuating that you should have stayed in a bad relationship. Hell, I didn't. I was just trying to say that you can't really pick and choose marriage vows to make an argument with. The other arguments about destroyed trust and two wrongs not making a right hold a lot more water.

Everyone looks at life differently and I know a lot of people that see staying together as the most important measure of a solid marriage, no matter what. Their measuring stick is different from yours and obviously different from mine.

As a Society I think we really need to start thinking of educating future generations on what they can expect in long-term relationships and be honest about what they will encounter and how they may even question their own feelings. At least then they would have given thought to the choices available to them when things go badly, hopefully including an open communication.
 AgelessWonder
Joined: 4/12/2006
Msg: 99
Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/10/2007 3:35:38 PM
I believe the problem here is that a lot of people, when the marriage starts to go bad, and it doesn't happen overnight, go outside the marriage instead of within for their enjoyment. All that does is bring the married couple farther apart.. It can never bring a couple closer by having an adultrous affair, IMO Even those who say their marriage has been sexless for years and won't leave because of the children etc.. It didn't happen overnight, and it seems there was sex in the beginning of the marriage.

There are also people who cheat for the excitement of it, and they love the sneaking around. Granted they may have a problem within the marriage, but a lot is merely for selfish reasons that they cheat. I guess they may be looking for a quick fix.

Another problem I see with cheating and getting into a relationship with a 3rd party, as the OP said, and he has been doing it for years, is the fact that he may fall in love with the 3rd party.

Most marriages that are sexless aren't JUST that way. There are other things leading to it. There are a lot of people who can treat another either with words or actions very cruel and then expect them to hop into bed and have sex.. It doesn't work that way! Without knowing the circumstances, we really can't come up with a solution. JMO
 redarcangel
Joined: 1/12/2007
Msg: 100
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Married ladies that fool around
Posted: 12/11/2007 6:54:31 AM
Ageless

First..the OP has never come back from the first page..where it is quite clearly stated through others posts that he found a "friend" as well as a lover for sex. He seemed to decide to make good on his quest as soon as he got someone to agree (using little words) with him..on "fooling around". His marriage then being obviously non-emotional as well as sexless. The OP doesn't state..however..what caused those problem in the first place. Why stay in that type of situation..that isn't a marriage by any other standards than the legalities? Because it's cheaper..you don't stand a chance of losing material items..and no one in the family looks down on you for divorcing..as another poster states? Wonder how they'd all feel knowing he was cheating then..hmmmmm???

Just as Ageless said..the sex and emotion was there at one time..then lost at some point. At what point and why? These situations don't just manifest out of thin air. We'll call this..problem #1. Remember..cause and consequence? I find it very difficult to believe that every avenue has been correctly obtained and exhausted to help the person that is depriving the other emotionally and sexually..and still have the same problems they started out with. I also can't believe that the one withholding considers herself then in a happy marriage..and wants the marriage to remain sexless and non-emotional..until death. The..we tried everything..everything..and nothing worked bit. Something's wrong in that picture! Then..to want to bring someone else into the picture..looking for emotional and sexual fulfillment just creates the possibility and the probability of more problems..especially with the emotional attachments that are occuring. We'll call this..problem # 2. Neither of these.."problems" are correct..that makes them wrong..2 wrongs..don't make a right. Sheesh..how simplistic is that? Black and white..not rose colored. JMO.

Seatide..

You still haven't answered as to why you call the depriving partner arrogant. That is not only judgmental..but childish..and a cheap-shot. Laymans terms. I have no idea what you call a "garden variety" cheater..and how that's somehow different from our OP.
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