| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/29/2008 5:46:13 PM | Or perhaps are archaic penal system goes some way to causing it. Look at Charles Bronson (Not the actor). Sentenced to 7 years back in the 1970s and still inside - Ghosted from one high security unit to another, kept in utter isolation - abused by bullying Prison Staff for years - his crime? (Orig Armed Robbery) or reason for still been inside - the refusal to allow them to steal his dignity. the price he paid? Well now he is mad as a badger!
Many criminologists believe that Prisons as we know them will simply not exist in a 100 years from now.
What the alternatives will be who knows. But the idea of people being rehabilitated in prisons is laughable. Again like all public service under this Government under funded and ill thought out.
Mental health can't be 'put on' your ill or your not. It is impossible to pull the wool over trained medical professionals eyes. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 1:15:47 AM | The sentence should be fitting for the crime but alas the labour an the judges seem to take the cowards approach an reward them instead of giving most of the scum the death penality, an not long enough sentences.
why let scum out early to reoffend they need suitable long prison sentences to reflect on their behaviuor , murderers,burgalars, robbers,an the like ,the other idiots in gangs an the other feral & feckless need 3/4 years under extreme short sharp shock in hard boot camps,an learn respect as most parents dont think its important these days. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 1:53:52 AM | I feel that very often the punishment doesn't fit the crime and I am a strong believer that life should mean life.
Sometimes sentences/ length of time inside don't make any sense to me. For example the case of the woman who tried to kill her husband with anti-freeze. She got 30 years I believe but fortunately he husband survived. On the other end the teenagers who killed Garry Newlove in Warrington will be young adults with their whole life in front of them when they come out. Not saying that the woman should not have been punished but why did she get a longer sentence than the SCUM who actually killed that poor guy. Suppose the only reason was that her crime was premiditated.
I got the following story by email a few weeks ago and not sure whether it is true but made me smile and I can help thinking that that guy has got the right idea.
"Sheriff Joe Arpaio created the 'tent city jail' to save Arizona from spending tens of millions of dollars on another expensive prison complex.
He has jail meals down to 20 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.
He banned smoking and pornographic magazines in the jails, and took away their weightlifting equipment and cut off all but 'G' movies. He says:
'They're in jail to pay a debt to society not to build muscles so they can assault innocent people when they leave.'
He started chain gangs to use the inmates to do free work on county and city projects and save taxpayer's money
Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.
He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again but only allows the Disney channel and the weather channel.
When asked why the weather channel, he replied: 'So these morons will know how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.'
He cut off coffee because it has zero nutritional value and is therefore a waste of taxpayer money. When the inmates complained, he told them, 'This isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back.'
With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record for June 2nd 2007), the Associated Press reported: About 2,000 inmates living in a barbed wire surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink boxer shorts.
On the Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing pink boxer shorts were overheard chatting in the tents, where temperatures reached 128 degrees.
'This is hell. It feels like we live in a furnace,' said Ernesto Gonzales, an inmate for 2 years with 10 more to go. 'It's inhumane.'
Joe Arpaio, who makes his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. 'Criminals should be punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for parole, only to go out and commit more crimes so they can come back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things many taxpayers can't afford to have for themselves.'
The same day he told all the inmates who were complaining of the heat in the tents: 'It's between 120 to 130 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to walk all day in the sun, wearing full battle gear and get shot at, and they have not committed any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!'
Way to go, Sheriff! If all prisons were like yours there would be a lot less crime and we would not be in the current position of running out of prison spaces".
Apparently he got re-elected. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 2:13:25 AM | Frenchy- what a fantastic bloke, to treat them like that sheriff does they should get him over here an teach the labour,an out of date judges how scum should be treated,
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 5:30:35 AM |
I grew up in one of the roughest and toughest areas of Cardiff, an area where no policemen liked to go a wandering shall we say. Cars were stolen and burnt out, kids would tear around on motorbikes, people would walk the streets high on hardcore drugs, there would be drug dealing, intimidation, fights, muggings, stabbings even murders, but no gun crime in those days.
It was so bad they actually had vigilantes patrolling the streets by 1989. It worked quite well in all fairness but it was a bit of an extortion racket too at the same time.. in the sense that you had to pay these people weekly subs to patrol the streets but this was a time when youth culture wasn't what it is today.
Today is a day where you dont need to be brought up in a rough area to be streetwise, you can be all clued up about crime, make money from drugs, creating multiple identities for benefit fraud, how to gain entry to cars/houses/pick locks etc how to hot wire a car, evasion, fraud, sentencing procedures, hi-tech crime, you name it.. whilst being brought up in a posh housing estate, its all common knowledge on the streets now, some of the kids are way too streetwise.
And the government are so dopey, really slow when it comes to dealing with stuff like this, they make such stupid laws and procedures that dont help. The criminals must be laughing their socks off! They know that this country is soft on crime, not tough on crime. They know that politicians blow a load of hot air to win votes but when it comes to the crunch all their 'tough on crime' proposals never get implemented because theyre not workable, in the sense that they would have to build another 20 prisons to cope with the extra numbers of people getting locked up/ staying inside for longer. And thats money, money they would rather waste on some other rubbish like expensive MPs 2nd homes with all the trimmings, and money to pay for all the war equipment and bombs they drop in the middle east bla bla bla
If you ask me, they need to bring in national service just to give people the much needed discipline they dont seem to have acquired in their lives, and if anyone breaks laws, depending on how serious, they should be made to be of more use and service to this country, i.e. instead of going to a holiday camp to spend christmas with all their mates over the wall and having a laugh and taking it easy, they should be out cleaning up the streets and painting/repairing the absolutely diabolical state of repairs that buildings, fixtures and whatever has been neglected for too long. I mean, has this country no pride, it looks like its falling apart and been left to the dogs when I look around me. So much more could be done to spruce up our neighbourhoods.
Well done!
I agree entirely with you. national service is the way forward. And work gangs who have to go out cleaning streets etc. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 6:45:08 AM | There is no magic cure ore one answer to cure all societies ills. Its a complex problem but for me its rooted in the way people are brought up and that obviously starts in the home and in schools. There is a distinct lack of regard and respect for authority.
Parents , teachers and the police are trying to do a job often with their hands tied.
It was unheard of to raise your voice to a teacher or copper when I was a kid let alone your fists . Now It seems to be routine that children are expelled[excluded] from schools for physically and verbally abusing teachers.
Consequently we have gangs of coc*y, arrogant youths thinking they can do and say exactly as they want. The sad reality is that they can ! Kids today are well clued up on their rights and fully aware they hold all the cards. This government need to implement measures that return the balance of power to where It should be.
Parents should be allowed to parent, teachers teach and police able to police without fear of being taken to court themselves. As long as we have children growing up with little or no respect for those in authority then we will continue to breed irresponsible youngsters. Prevention is always better than cure. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 7:03:02 AM | National Service is anything but the way forward. Having served in the Armed forces, I can speak with some authority and tell you that the professionalism, that we enjoy as we are protected by one of, if not the best Military Forces in the world comes partly from the motivation of those that serve. They want to be there - There are a multitude of reasons why NS. won't work, but I hope that the one I have given will suffice as it would be taking us a long way from topic, but I am happy to expand on the reasons if asked.
The recurring theme of capital punishment. Seems some views are poles apart. Here I cite one example.
Lesley Molseed, aged 11 was murdered some 32 years ago, a 'slow witted' gentleman called Stefan Kiszko, was condemed to Life imprisonment after been convicted of her murder. Stefan was innocent. though he confessed to the crime, after Lesley was killed in October 1975 - Stefan, then 23, was arrested and confessed without a solicitor present.
February 18, 1992: Three appeal judges quash Stefan's conviction, ruling it "unsafe and unsatisfactory". Stefan was not destined to be released immediately, he had to remain in hospital for another nine months having been diagnosed with schizophrenia.
December 23, 1993: Stefan dies from heart condition just a year after his innocence proved Did his 16-year incarceration destroy him? Was this our return to the death penalty?
Last year there was a conviction in this case, of Ron Castree who let an innocent man serve 16 years for his crime.
What if we had the death penalty and had murdered Stefan in the name of the state?
It could be argued we possibly did.
This happened in my lifetime. Time and time again we see that our Police are not without fault, our judicial system is not perfect and people still advocate state sanctioned murder?
A series of unfortunate events led to Stefan's life been snatched from him - could you guarantee you will always be as lucky as you are and never wrongly convicted?
Willing to take the risk while looking at the hangman's noose? | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 7:56:00 AM | | why should the British military be used as a corrctional institute for the failings of parents and society? we have very well trained military personell and I dont see why there reputation should be tarnished by accepting societies toe rags | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 8:29:00 AM | Good god you would not put the scumbags in with the normal army!!!!! That would just be an insult to the brave men and women in there.
I think that the national service idea falls into two sections. The first being that every person of a certain age has to serve 1-2 years national service. Nothing to do with being a criminal or not. So may at age 16 when they have all taken their GCSEs. Many other countries still do this today, I don't understand why we stopped.
National service isn't all about marching and being shouted at either. I know lots of people who did all sorts of things back in the day. So for the people who weren't that academic at school they get the chance to learn a trade if they want to. Plus the army has the whole British youth going through it and can cream off the top candidates that it wants to keep. Sounds like a winner all round to me.
The second is a boot camp type place where they really do "pay" for their crimes.
As another poster stated, parents, teachers, and especially the police are having to try and do their jobs with their hands tied behind their backs.
It is OK as well to quote a few cases where by the law did get convictions wrong. However, in the meantime what about all the thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent people who have been assaulted, stabbed, raped, burgled, mugged, murdered etc by repeat offenders who just get a slap on the wrist and let out again, or new offenders who know they will get away with it?
So for all the people against capital punishment and death penalties etc. What do we do then? Don't just chastise me for suggesting it. We have tried the "give them a cuddle and send them to Disneyland Paris" approach and it doesn't work. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 9:07:25 AM | Depends on the situation, I don't think you can have one rule for all as not all circumstances are the same.
What about a woman who has been beaten and abused and nearly killed for years by a partner or family member and just lost the plot?
What about getting convicted and punsihed for crimes that you didn't comit? It's gonna happen alot with the current state of police paperwork, cpu judge court thing I think. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 9:45:47 AM |
It is OK as well to quote a few cases where by the law did get convictions wrong.
Well err YES it is. Would you hang an innocent person?
Are prisons have plenty of people awaiting appeal, convicted on six strand DNA evidence.
In any system ran by human beings it is open to abuse - that is why I would fight with all I have to stop capital punishment being re-introduced.
Who Polices the Police? | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 9:51:04 AM | | most prisions are like hotels now..tellys and playstations in your cell..lots of visits and phone calls..some of the live more comfortable in gaol than most people out here..yep..id deffo say we have gone too soft..and the country is in a right mess... | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:02:27 AM | Two words: Derek Bentley
For those (on the off-chance that there are any) who don't know the name, he was the young man that was executed in 1953, at the age of 19, for the murder of police officer. At the time the officer was shot and killed, Bentley was actually in police custody and took no active part in the murder itself. (The individual who actually pulled the trigger, Christopher Craig, served 10 years for his part in the proceedings)
He received a pardon in 1993, which - as is the nature of pardons - forgave him his part in the events, but did not overturn the guilty verdict. Nevertheless, he remains dead.
In 1998, the conviction itself was overturned, but alas he remains dead. Perhaps ironically, this was also the same year that the death penalty was finally abolished in UK law.
Wikipedia (as ever) contains more details of the case - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bentley
This whole sorry affair is a damning indictment not just of the death penalty, but of the justice system itself. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:07:38 AM | | Im probably one of the more pro hanging than no hanging, however I really do have my doubts about our justice system and its uncany ability to bang up the wrong geezer. had we had the death penalty in place we would have hung Barry Bulsara and Im not convinced at all about his guilt | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:07:41 AM |
Would you hang an innocent person?
No, I wouldn't and I accept totally what you and others are saying. But what do we do?
You clearly say you don't want to hang an innocent person, but what about the thousands of innocent people, on the flipside, that make up the British public who are being attacked in the meantime because we have no deterent to stop new criminals and keep letting existing one out again as the jails are full?
It sounds harsh but, how long does it take before it becomes a numbers game and the safety of the majority of the country takes precendence over a wrong conviction? Will this ever happen?
Who Polices the Police? Good point, if we make a force to do that then who Polices them? And in the meantime how many more innocent people of the British public suffer?
I don't have all the answers, but I think we can clearly see that: discipline is lacking; there is no fear of authority; and services like the Police need to have more powers returned to them.
We are on a spiral into anarchy. How do we stop it? | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:51:36 AM | HerMajesyUK, #16 wrote:
<div class="quote">So rather 100 walk than 1 innocent die?
What if the innocent that died was one of your loved ones? What if it was you? Would you continue to be so strongly in favour?
<div class="quote">Let's take Peter Sutcliffe then, with 23 known victims. 100 of him walk... on that average that creates 2300 losses of innocent life
Sutcliffe is hardly your "average" killer - he was one of the most prolific serial killers in British history (incidentally, he was convicted of 13 murders, not 23 - whilst it's known that there were at least 23 *victims*, not all of them lost their lives - 10 of them survived his attacks). He was far outstripped by Harold Shipman (convicted of 15, suspected of over 200). And lest I be accused of gender bias, don't forget Mary Ann Cotton - although only convicted of a single murder, she is believed to have committed around 20.
But these individuals are very, very much the exception. You'd be very hard pushed to find 100 serial killers who have each killed 13 - let alone 23 - people
Please don't misunderstand - I'm not defending the indefensible here; far from it - but statistics like this are far more meaningful if there's an essence of veracity to them.
<div class="quote">I think in cases like his where it goes waaayyy beyond reasonable doubt there should only be one sentence given
The problem there is how do you "measure" how far "beyond reasonable doubt" a conviction is?
It's not unknown for people to confess (sometimes voluntarily, sometimes due to coercion) to crimes that they have not committed; evidence has been tampered with (both intentionally and unintentionally) - so how does one really measure "way beyond reasonable doubt"? | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:41:11 AM | what does it matter, it's not like we're going to see any real punishment in this country let alone a death sentence. Though what I can see happening is people taking the law into their own hands pretty soon as the system is getting beyond a joke!
As I said before my 17 year old son gets stabbed in the chest by some lout with a screwdriver, (which is now deemed as common assault!??!!?) witnesses threatened (even in the courthouse) and he gets jack sh*t.
Oh how I love being a tax payer! One way or another we continue to pay for these scrotes, if it's not for their 'hotel' style prison cells it's for their dole cheque so they can carry on dossing on the streets instead of doing an honest days work! | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/3/2008 1:12:30 PM |
There is no magic cure ore one answer to cure all societies ills. Its a complex problem but for me its rooted in the way people are brought up and that obviously starts in the home and in schools. There is a distinct lack of regard and respect for authority.
Parents , teachers and the police are trying to do a job often with their hands tied.
It was unheard of to raise your voice to a teacher or copper when I was a kid let alone your fists . Now It seems to be routine that children are expelled[excluded] from schools for physically and verbally abusing teachers.
Consequently we have gangs of coc*y, arrogant youths thinking they can do and say exactly as they want. The sad reality is that they can ! Kids today are well clued up on their rights and fully aware they hold all the cards. This government need to implement measures that return the balance of power to where It should be.
Parents should be allowed to parent, teachers teach and police able to police without fear of being taken to court themselves. As long as we have children growing up with little or no respect for those in authority then we will continue to breed irresponsible youngsters. Prevention is always better than cure.
(As I am typing this the 9o'clock news is reporting 3 more stabbings).
I agree completely. While there will always be a smattering of psychopaths and serial killers in the UK at any given time, it's today's youth that concern me more. What is the country coming to when children are stabbing children and over what? Turf? Colours? Because they look 'funny'? Gang culture is rife in the Uk and it's truly terrifying.
And it's not just the established gangs, but groups of youngsters with nothing to do but wreak havoc. Beating people to death because they've had a bollo*king for kicking a wing mirror off a car. Read that again, your average, outraged citizen getting killed for defending their property. It's sick and it's really time something was done about it. But what? As Johnny so rightly states they hold all the cards, they know their rights inside out and with the Human Rights Brigade lurking around every corner is it any wonder judges and magistrates are lax with sentencing, if indeed any of these terrors ever make it to court?
So, what are the answers? Well the death penalty won't fit as most of these perps are minors, I don't think the death penalty is that much of a deterrent anyway. National service? Maybe, but do we really want to train these people to use guns? Boot camps?Possibly, but how effective would these be and at what cost to the taxpayer?
Curfew? Would be a God send but impractical to police. Tougher jail sentences? Hahaha! More time to hang with their mates and pump iron-I think not. I believe it should go back to the parents when they are at fault. If you leave little Billy out until all hours getting up to fvck knows what mischief, be prepared to take the punishment. If little Sally gets excluded from school for head-butting a teacher-good-you home school the errant little cow and teach her some respect. If property gets damaged make the parents pay to replace the window/tyre etc. It won't happen overnight if at all, but I believe it needs to start at home and soon. If you bring little Brooklyn and Chelsea and Britney into the world, then pull your finger out of your ar$e and raise them properly. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/3/2008 1:38:27 PM | In our case the parents of the offender hid him for three weeks from the police. Just seems that society is growing up with no respect for law and order. Government says you can't smack your child for doing something wrong, didn't hurt in my day.. nor did getting the cane! (Well.. ok it did, but taught people their lesson!)
Children are growing up with no fear of anything and turning into the 'you can't touch us' crew. I can't even begin to imagine what the next generation are going to be like. There's no respect for human life at all anymore. Very sad situation. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/4/2008 1:56:07 AM | Another 16 yr old was killed in London yesterday. I'm not sure what the solution is, but the government are definitely getting it wrong, criminals aren't scared of going to prison, in fact the amount of times you've been in prison is seen as some sort of status. Life inside prison is sometimes better, than being on the outside, at least they get 3 meals a day, tv, playstations..etc.!
Its a very sad situation when kids think, they have to walk around the streets, better armed than our police, for their own protection!.. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/20/2008 12:20:41 PM |
eye 4 an eye There have been a multitude of reasons argued here, both pro and anti death penalty - perhaps rather than misquoting the bible we could have explained how this would improve OUR criminal justice system one iota? | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/20/2008 1:16:17 PM | what punishment. my cousin was killed 5yrs ago was out with her hubby in local pub
some bloke drugged up and pi$$ed had ago at her (she didnt drink) so she left the pub he followed her jumped into his car and dragged her 200yrd onto a dirt road she was underneath the car she died. he got 2yrs in a open prison out in 8mths my cousin left two babies 3 and 1. that low life i would kill but he was moved away for his own safety.
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/20/2008 1:39:16 PM | | So look him up and find him then. People are easy to find if you have their name. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/20/2008 2:01:57 PM |
most prisions are like hotels now..tellys and playstations in your cell..lots of visits and phone calls..some of the live more comfortable in gaol than most people out here. What a ridiculous statement. No matter if you have a TV in your cell, can use the phone or get visits, the one thing you haven't got is your liberty. To say that people live more comfortable than most people outside is just stupid.
If you asked any prisoner whether they would prefer their liberty or a prison cell, there would only be one answer. | |
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| Crime and Punishment
Posted: 7/20/2008 2:05:33 PM | | TG. we as a family have tried everything still no clue. so not as easy as you seem to think.. | |
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