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churpy
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Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 1776 | |
| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/17/2007 7:49:30 AM | Serendipity, I watched the "show", and, I saw nothing wrong...it looked just like our fishing pier does when fish are brought in, gaffed, or bonked, then cleaned...blood and guts, but mmmm can hardly wait to have a taste....I agree that killing just for fur is wrong, but, from what I understand, the fur isn't the only part of the seal that is utilized....one of our local resorts has salmon skin along it's bar, are you OK with that?
The Government loves to get those e-mails, because then they know that people are paying attention to the cute seals, and not the ugliness that big business/government is getting away with....killing seals is not going to hurt humanity like pollution, the wars, and world hunger will...so you just keep distracting from the "real issues", and maybe the Prime Minister will send you a Christmas card you can hang on your wall like a trophy. | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/17/2007 7:52:10 AM | Prefect, your monkier is certainly most apt. :-)
Logic should be based-on information from both sides of every issue. Or, even better, all the grey areas. While your "solution" sounds good in writing, it's does not cover all of the grey issues. And this, makes your logic flawed.
See, thing is, Harp seals are NOT guilty of depleting cod stocks. If we should be pointing a finger, we should point it at the human race. If you care to read, below is a link that is backed-up by solid scientic research and data. Heck there is a lot of info out there... you just got to want to find it.
http://www.imma.org/codvideo/harpcod_QA.html (lots of great information here)
http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/publications/Assets/HTML_MAGS/oasis/ecology3.html (another useful link)
http://www.converge.org.nz/pirm/frames/fish!f.htm (is killing seals the answer to this problem?) | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/17/2007 8:07:15 AM | Over fishing was done by humans, yes.
Your problem that you stated before was about leaving the carcass. Why not promote the meat? You still have not answered that. We are at a point where even if we stop fishing cod, if they do not have a break from all predators (including seals and humans) they will become extinct. This will also kill off the seals when they no longer have a food source.
So why is it such a bad thing to promote seal products if your issue is with leaving the meat behind? Creates industry, saves the carcass, helps the fish. Keep foreign trollers out of our waters and they fish may have a chance.
Where is the issue with the foreign poachers? Canada has implemented a cap on cod fishing, but other countries are coming right on in and taking them, undoing our work. Some of the very same countries supporting the ban on seal hunting. There is more at issue than the little pups. Yes HUMANS created the problem, that makes it up to humans to solve it. Seals are NOT endangered. Their food source IS endangered. By virtue, loosing that food source will kill the seals.
Again, if your problem really IS with the meat being left behind, why not promote it so that the meat is profitable, and not left to rot? | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/17/2007 1:48:22 PM | My tone has not wavered, but perhaps was misunderstood.
I am hugely against the fur industry. I am open to discussion and "Live and Let Live." Would I date a man that clubbed seals of any age for a livelihood? Without a doubt, most definitely, NOT!
I suppose I could do a lot of things for money that I choose not to do, but I choose not to do them.
I will never support the fur industry, but so long as others do, the industry will have a market. Simple economics. | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/17/2007 1:48:58 PM | Okay Ottawa I was picking any random local fish for example purposes, and yes cod is a different issue with it's own challenges. And, I concur that human activities have a large impact. The cod even if not consumed by Harp seals are still affected unless they eat nothing but fauna, and even then over grazed kelp beds may be a problem.
Analogy
Here common baitfish feed our commercial stocks but i will just pull alewife out of the air. So if brown pelican feathers wear valued and hunted for a couple of centuries. Now both the pelicans and the landlocked salmon eat these same baitfish the alewife. If all hunting pressure is suddenly removed and the pelican population booms, there is still only the same amount of food to sustain both species. Depending on which is the more successful hunter the other dwindles due to starvation. If both predators are successful and the alewife are eliminated or reduced in numbers sufficiently, then both predators are harmed. Booming pelican could endanger the salmon fishery or themselves if the consequences of any action taken toward them is not very well thought out.
[u] [/u]
My issue is that almost every arguement against is one of two things, personal choice which I have absolutely no trouble accepting, or mis-information and feelings as used by greedy Animal Rights Machines. Now the later I do have a problem with, their half-assed contributions do more harm than good as often as not. This is turned into a media circus, while trade with China goes on business as usual. For those that aren't aware in some regions of China not only do they eat dogs, there is a belief that if you beat the animal before slaughter it tastes better. While I cannot make a judgement on eatting a dog even though I find them cute I cannot condone abuse of a live animal for "better taste".
And on one point I may have been misinformed. The carcass is still discarded? Inuit eat seal so there is a very easy solution, and really I practiacally assumed that the meat went to pet food processors. Is there legislation that prevents this? Even at a few cents a pound that would be an economic boon for the industry, possibly even enough to enable better management tools. | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 6:13:28 AM | Wow, bi-curious, what a useless O'Reillyesque rant. All of it is either hogwash or way off-topic. I could rip most of it to shreads, but I'd rather not waste my time. But I will take you on one point, if you care to do so. Let me ask you... are absolutely certain that MAC is the ONLY cosmetic company that does not test on animals? Judging by your over-the-top rant, I'd say so... but I want to hear it again. C'mon, I'm salivating.
Loony and Prefect, I'll get back to you both shortly. You both bring up some good and important points that deserve a well-though and reserched response. | |
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churpy
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Joined: 9/5/2006
Msg: 1782 | |
| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 8:22:26 AM | Wow Ottawa, and you arrrrrrrreee???? The hogwash ref? I thought there were some good points...
You ask about animal testing on cosmetics, which has nothing to do with seal hunts, yet you say bi-curious is "useless"...I can tell the attitudes of Ottawa-ites has not improved since I lived there....while your researching, try some soul searching too.....it may be more insightful for ya! | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 9:26:46 AM | I call 'em as I see 'em. I stand by to what I wrote. So because I disagree, it's my attitude that needs improvement. Okay, whatever you say, churpy. Your opinion on my opinion means little to me, however, if you want to back-up anything bi-curious wrote with solid facts, I'm prepared to listen and retort.
I picked the cosmetic industry rant randomly. That one is not only off-topic, it's false. A double-whammy, I think.
BTW, where did I write that I thought that bi-curious was useless? How does referring to his rant have to do with how I feel about him on a personal level? | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 9:45:27 AM |
Your problem that you stated before was about leaving the carcass. Why not promote the meat? You still have not answered that. We are at a point where even if we stop fishing cod, if they do not have a break from all predators (including seals and humans) they will become extinct. This will also kill off the seals when they no longer have a food source.
So why is it such a bad thing to promote seal products if your issue is with leaving the meat behind? Creates industry, saves the carcass, helps the fish. Keep foreign trollers out of our waters and they fish may have a chance.
It took me a bit of time to find decent literature on the subject, so sorry for the delay in responding. The problem is twofold, according to what I found. For one, there's little market for seal meat. In fact, the demand for it has declined over the years. Secondly, there is little meat on the beaters, and it's not worth the effort to bring the kill back to shore. I do believe that some hunters do take some meat... the beaters that are more mature.... however, it's almost not worth the effort from what I gather.
Culling more mature seals is not the answer, unfortunately. While they have more meat, their pelts are not as valuable in the fur industry.
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"Finding a market for seal meat outside of Newfoundland continues to present a major challenge for the sealing industry," the DFO said. "There has always been a local market for a number of seal flippers in Newfoundland. Over the last few years, the value of this market was limited."
4. MARKET OUTLOOK
Market levels and weather conditions determine the level of each year's hunt (within the allowable quota). In 2002, sealers harvested 312,367 harp seals. There were four major seal buyers/processors in Newfoundland and Labrador, one in Prince Edward Island and one in the Magdalen Islands. In Newfoundland and Labrador, these companies purchased a total of approximately 284,827 harp seal pelts and 2,426 other seal pelts having a landed value of $21 million. Meat and other products were valued at less than $1 million.
Canada exports seal products in three forms: sealskins, seal oil and seal meat. Exports of seal oil and meat have been limited, but prices for both products were good. Exports of seal meat have declined in recent years due to a sharp decline in exports to Asia. That region was replaced by Europe as the main destination for seal oil and skins, but it remains the principal market for seal meat exports. Asia could regain its position as the main market for all types of seal exports when the Asian economies improve to positions that would make seal imports more attractive.
4.1 MARKET DEVELOPMENT
As a result of the government-wide review of priorities and activities in 1994, DFO is no longer involved in product support or promotion activities.
4.2 SEAL PELTS (FUR AND LEATHER)
In the last few years, the seal harvest in Atlantic Canada has been directed at beater seals (independent harp seals between 25 days and 13 months of age). Beater seals provide the most valuable pelts and market conditions are stronger for this type of pelts.
4.3 SEAL MEAT
Finding a market for seal meat outside of Newfoundland continues to present a major challenge for the sealing industry. The amount of seal meat landed in 2002 was extremely low, in part because the hunt was mainly directed at younger animals (beaters), which have very little recoverable meat.
4.4 SEAL OIL
The market for seal oil remains positive. Presently, a good percentage of seal oil is finding its way into areas other than the traditional marine and industrial oils. The industry is positive about this new development but is aware that more R&D is required to expand the range of products derived from seal oil.
4.5 SEAL FLIPPERS
There has always been a local market for a number of seal flippers in Newfoundland. Over the last few years, the value of this market was limited.
4.6 SEAL ORGANS
There has been was virtually no market for seal organs since 1998.
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2006/2006-03-16-06.asp | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 10:48:47 AM | 4.6 SEAL ORGANS
There has been was virtually no market for seal organs since 1998.
I must correct you on that one...why don't you ask the chinese..lol There is indeed market for the organs. Since I have family involved in the seal fishery, I can definately tell you there is a market for that.
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 11:34:40 AM |
I must correct you on that one...why don't you ask the chinese..lol There is indeed market for the organs. Since I have family involved in the seal fishery, I can definately tell you there is a market for that.
There's a very small market that's disappearing:
In 1998, an estimated 20,000 Harp seal organs were sold at an average price of $20. In years past, each would fetch up to $115. In 1999 and 2000, there has been "virtually no market for seal organs," the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans reported.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/11/07/viagra.wildlife/index.html | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 12:04:12 PM | I love how everyone wants the "solid facts" on a bloody forum. The fact is..... that when it comes to basically everything that is not science or math, nothing is a true fact! Everything is always swayed by the perspective of who wrote it.
I wonder if how this topic would go, if we were talking solely about the Inuit's seal hunt? Considering it is a completely different experience then the others... You seal huggers gonna start terrorizing them and threatening taking away they livelihood? lemme guess but the seals are cute and the Inuit can sell ice for $ cause the seals are just to cute.. | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 3:26:16 PM |
I love how everyone wants the "solid facts" on a bloody forum. The fact is..... that when it comes to basically everything that is not science or math, nothing is a true fact!
So very true. I read somewhere that 95% of all statistics are false. :-)
Okay Ottawa I was picking any random local fish for example purposes, and yes cod is a different issue with it's own challenges. And, I concur that human activities have a large impact. The cod even if not consumed by Harp seals are still affected unless they eat nothing but fauna, and even then over grazed kelp beds may be a problem.
That's a fair assessment.
Analogy
Here common baitfish feed our commercial stocks but i will just pull alewife out of the air. So if brown pelican feathers wear valued and hunted for a couple of centuries. Now both the pelicans and the landlocked salmon eat these same baitfish the alewife. If all hunting pressure is suddenly removed and the pelican population booms, there is still only the same amount of food to sustain both species. Depending on which is the more successful hunter the other dwindles due to starvation. If both predators are successful and the alewife are eliminated or reduced in numbers sufficiently, then both predators are harmed. Booming pelican could endanger the salmon fishery or themselves if the consequences of any action taken toward them is not very well thought out.
I don't know how to answer that. I would agree that the problem would need to be rectified in order for the salmon to survive. Not sure what the means would be, but culling the pelican might be a necessity. One thing I will say is that Mother Nature does seem to be able to rebalance herself out when nautral changes like these occur.
My issue is that almost every arguement against is one of two things, personal choice which I have absolutely no trouble accepting, or mis-information and feelings as used by greedy Animal Rights Machines. Now the later I do have a problem with, their half-assed contributions do more harm than good as often as not. This is turned into a media circus, while trade with China goes on business as usual. For those that aren't aware in some regions of China not only do they eat dogs, there is a belief that if you beat the animal before slaughter it tastes better. While I cannot make a judgement on eatting a dog even though I find them cute I cannot condone abuse of a live animal for "better taste".
I agree that some animal rights groups are too fanatical. I think Peta would be the best example of one that is too out there for most. I do believe it is important that there are groups/charities that "speak" for animal rights, but they have to be reasonable.
And on one point I may have been misinformed. The carcass is still discarded? Inuit eat seal so there is a very easy solution, and really I practiacally assumed that the meat went to pet food processors. Is there legislation that prevents this? Even at a few cents a pound that would be an economic boon for the industry, possibly even enough to enable better management tools.
See post #1884. | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 3:32:43 PM | I want seal skin garment or two. We use cow hides, minks, eat the flesh of all sorts of animals.
It seems the seals are 'cute' so it is even worse to kill them....?
I don't get it.
Where is my seal skin coat! | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 4:01:09 PM | I have admittedly not completely researched the entire debate, but OTTOWA CHICKLET seems to be a very decent person. Can't we encourage discussion without being so vicious towards each other?
I would personally probably delete "didsgusting" from the headline, but still continue the debate. | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 5:05:33 PM | | I do know there was market for organs last year as well, cause I know people who sold them. I don't know what DFO has reported or how up to date it is, but there were some sold last year. Maybe they were sold on the black market or something..lol | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 5:32:49 PM | :-O
I have admittedly not completely researched the entire debate, but OTTOWA CHICKLET seems to be a very decent person. Can't we encourage discussion without being so vicious towards each other?
Okay who is slamming the Chicklet? Sometimes she agrees with me sometimes disagrees, but always has used her head and facts to pick her particular stance on anything that I have seen. | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 6:02:46 PM | Yeah for you nfldgrl70,
So many people on here are professing opinions about a topic they don't really understand because they've never experienced life up north or in the rural Atlantic towns that depend on this industry. You can do all the research you want but for some people it's a way of life. My family was involved in the sealing industry and I have a really good recipe for seal flipper pie, don't knock till you try it. They can be tasty little buggers :) (See below)
If you want an accurate description of a seal hunt take it from someone how has actually seen a seal killed. They are shot at point blank range or clubbed in the head and die instantly. They are loaded on-board the boat and then the processing starts. The skins are removed very carefully, which is why the "skinning alive" theory is so ridiculous because the pelt would be damaged and not nearly as valuable. The meat is separated from the rest of the body and then the remainder is used to produce seal oil and the ever-important Omega-3. Yes Omega-3, you might be taking that with your daily vitamins!
I'm proud of my family history and don't see anything wrong with the seal hunt. It's no different than cattle ranches, pig or chicken farms. If you disagree with the killing of all animals then that is your choice and I can't say anything against that. But if you eat beef, pork or chicken then take a few minutes to really think about how those animals are treated and the industries that you support before passing judgment on the seal hunt.
Nan's Flipper Pie
2 Seal Flippers
1/4 lb fat back pork
3 onions
1 tbsp vinegar
2 tbsp rum (Screech)
turnip
carrots
potatoes
2 cups water
Pastry
1 cup flour
1 1/2 tsp baking powder
milk to mix
Remove knuckles and fat from flippers. Wash and put in boiling water with vinegar for 20 minutes. Remove from water, dry and put in casserole dish. Cut up one onion and add to dish with pork fat, pepper, salt and rum. Cover and bake for 1 1/2 hours at 375
Cube vegetables and onion and boil for 20 minutes. Add vegetables to casserole dish and thicken pot liquor with flour. Cover with pastry and bake at 350 until browned
P.S. Why isn't anyone talking about all the seals that will/are drowning due to lack of ice in the gulf because of global warming? | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 9:06:35 PM | Ya, how could ANYONE beat a poor innocent seal pup over the head for its fur??....
... kittens are a PERFECTLY good alternative.... Personally I can't WAIT to get my clubs out .. golf season is upon us!!  <---- kill the dancing banana !!
(yawn)...  | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 9:20:20 PM | So very true. I read somewhere that 95% of all statistics are false. :-)
Lmao .... and only 14% of people know that...
Have to agree and give it up to OtaawaChicklet, she's really an asset to the thread.. makes things much more interesting
while the rest of Canada isn't laughing at their jokes, we're laughing at them and the welfare state they call a province.
WTF speak for yourself, asswipe. We Canadians are known and loved around the world for our sense of community, multiculturalism, tolerance, (I could go on forever) So find some of that good old Canadian pride, or maybe move to the states where that kinda shit is tolerated. (no offense to y'all living in the states) | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 10:40:18 PM | some of the comments here about defending the act of brutally killing, skinning alive and saying it is hype is the most moronic thing I have read here.. ptdad... are you insane? They have film of these horrific acts. These pelts are bought by Russia, China and other countries that "consume" relentlesly and do not care if the goods are gotten in a non humane way. The Japanese would fish the seas and oceans dry, and are often caught killing whales in US waters. There are criminals that poach animals that are so indangered that they are almost gone.. I am not saying it is just Japan, France, China and many of the countries we dont agree with on this subject pay big money for stupid parts of animals that say they make a man more manly.. what a bunch of idiots.
They eat our horses, (three huge slaughter houses in the US, two in Tx and one in AZ) can kill any horse bought at auction, makes me sick and I fight these within groups like the ASCPA and many more. I dont wear fur, I feel it looks much better on the animal.
Greed and the fight for the almight (worthless) dollar has made this world a horrible place... everyone wants the McMansion, the super SUV, and the heads of rare creatures hanging in the den... I feel that no matter how many laws are passed, there is always going to be the jackasses that will buy this stuff so that someone will think that they are cool... sad and it makes the market... if people didnt buy this stuff, the killers, drug dealers, prostitutes, smuglers and poachers wouldnt really have a market and would have to get a real job.
BL (disgusted) | |
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/18/2007 10:57:48 PM | P.S. Why isn't anyone talking about all the seals that will/are drowning due to lack of ice in the gulf because of global warming
Great point Newfiegrrl. I wonder the same myself sometimes. I saw a news clip a few weeks ago about how the polar bears are having to swim more and more because of melting ice. Really makes you feel like a failure as a human being when you see what we are doing to the environment in order to grow food faster in the south, polute the air to produce gas and more pots and pans in Hamilton.. sad state.
it's clear that Newfies aren't that funny, they crack the same joke over and over about flipper pie, all while the rest of Canada isn't laughing at their jokes, we're laughing at them and the welfare state they call a province.
Many times, I have agreed with you Smack. This time, I will call you nothing short of a racist. You are so dead set on winning an arguement that you will spew racist remarks, thinking that you will get ahead. It's disgusting. I guess that you've been reading a little too much Wente these days.
I've never made a crack about flipper pie. I lived in Newfoundland - my parents were originally Newfoundlanders and so were the grandparents that I am so proud of. All of whom are hard workers holding positions in government and civil service. I have no shame about Newfoundland. I only have shame for people who cast judgement without even knowing a thing about what they are talking about.
Newfoundland laughs because it's the best medicine. We've given everything to Canada and gotten nothing but bitterness and exclusion in return. The province is far from a welfare state. Almost everybody there works - some are on welfare, true - but so are millions in Ontario and the rest of Canada. Picking a few people and making a broad generalization about an entire group really makes you sound uneducated.
OP
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| Canada's Disgusting Seal Pup Hunt
Posted: 4/19/2007 6:01:31 AM | all while the rest of Canada isn't laughing at their jokes, we're laughing at them and the welfare state they call a province.
I won't dare say what I'd like to say to that one... Mr. Smak always gets childish when he can't get his own way... Don't share that flipper pie with him newfiegrrl!!
Well said there perfect42. With the resources we have we could be a very rich province...the Harper gov. is doing nothing to help us that's for sure!
You tell him Ocean...I think he must be Marg Wente's son. LOL | |
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