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 Never_Assume
Joined: 3/9/2004
Msg: 26
Negative perceptions of Islam increasingPage 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

No. I dont think it justified it either. The Bible was used by tyrannical forces very improperly. Otherwise, the Crusades would still be going on.


My point exactly. You don't think this applies to the Qur'an?

And the bit about taking people with you when you kill them is highly debated. The interpretation of that portion is very different from person to person. For you to equate it to "blowing yourself up" is asinine.

And as for the Mulsims not punishing those that take lives... How do you know?? What sources, other than North American media, do you have that tells you what they do and do not do? Again, just because you don't read about it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

On one hand we talk about how extreme their laws are, and then we talk about how they "do nothing". Pick a bloody stance and stick with it.
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 27
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 10:47:00 AM

And the bit about taking people with you when you kill them is highly debated. The interpretation of that portion is very different from person to person. For you to equate it to "blowing yourself up" is asinine.
Read the Quran, then come back and write the same thing...but, I also never wrote much of the stuff you are rambling about in this post.
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 28
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 10:49:45 AM

Thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel, the Jewish state. How many Jews are protesting this in the streets of NY. Does that mean most jews condone the killing of innocent Palestinians? I hope not.
What does Judaism have to do with the Quran?
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 29
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 10:50:29 AM

1. Islam is the largest religion in the world. There membership is in the millions, and they like Christian are broken into many different sects, with different beliefs but one holy book.


Not quite 1.3 billion souls claim Islam while 2.3 billion claim Christianity

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html


2. Most Muslims are NOT terrorist. Let me repeat myself, most Muslims are NOT terrorist. They are peace loving individuals who just want to be free to worship their God in peace. You've heard of peace, freedom from strife.


But they do seem to produce an inordinate amount of nutjobs. Since the 1970's probably 90% of all terrorist acts world wide have been committed by moslems. Islam is also at the core of well over half the worlds current and recently concluded conflicts.


3. The Quaran does not teach hatred, no more so than the Bible. In fact, if you read it, which I have, it actually teaches love and tolerance. Just as the Bible teaches it, which I've also read.


The New Testament teaches love and redemption of all mankind through Christ. The Quran teaches that only make Moslem's are fully equal and every one else from woman to believers in other faiths are placed on some lower step. When you introduce the idea that men are different based on purely inmaterial things like religion, skin color, sexual orientation you introduce contempt which breeds hate.


Ignorance breeds ignorance, as this poll clearly shows. To indiscriminately blame all Muslims and a religion that most people know absolutely nothing about, other than hearsay because of the actions of a minority of people is the height of idiocy


Arabs have been waging war non stop against the west and Israel now for over 50 years. The perception is not base don ignorance but exhaustion. The world is finally saying F*ck You and the flying carpet you rode in on and get the hell away form me. The world has been bombarded by pictures of suicide attacks, riots, hijackings and carnage for so long with out any real effort from the mythical muslim moderates that the general public is simply tired of it. I say mythical moderates because they are as hard to find as a rare bird. occasionally you will here a peep and think maybe the creature is about to show it self but then nothing follows.

We see the mass demonstrations every time some thing bad happens to the West of the arab street gets it's nose out of joint. But where are the movements to stop the violence? Where is the consensus that it's time to give peace a chance? WAR WAR WAR is all we hear form the arab street. Jihad this and jihad that and death to so and so for expressing free speech and free will etc. Enough is enough and the west is finally waking up to the fact that something has gone seriously sideways in the muslim world and the only peace in Islam is the peace of the grave.


I'd like for anyone to tell me that if an army from another country came here and attempted to take over and run our country, that we'd just let them and not fight back. It would not happen, we'd train our children, women, and senior citizens to help with the fight. American Revolution and Civil War. By any means necessary, for all my NRA friends.


So the Christian minorities in Pakistan and Timor invaded their own homelands and thus deserved retribution Islamic style? Or the Hindus targets for snuffing in India by infiltrators from Pakistan? What of all the Jews kicked out of middle eastern countries at the same time the Arabs were demanding that Israel cease to exist by letting all the refugees who started the war with Israel return? Yup the west is to blame for everything and Islam is blameless and peaceful. Wanna buy a bridge?
 Never_Assume
Joined: 3/9/2004
Msg: 30
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 10:56:38 AM
I hate doing this, but I feel like I have to. Aside from what I paste here, go this site and check it out for yourself. You guys act like your in tune with the Qur'an. I admit that I'm not, but I won't accept that you are...

Site: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html

Misconception 7
Islam tolerates the killing of innocents because:
Muslims can be terrorists

Muslims engage in `holy wars' (jihad)

Islam spread by the sword

it has a harsh and cruel judicial system

This misconception is one of the most widely held misconceptions about Islam today. And yet in the Qur'an, the Creator unambiguously states (translation),

[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of certain crimes. It is well to remember at this point the distinction made above between Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Muslims: only the Qur'an and Sunnah are guaranteed to be in accordance with what the Creator desires, whereas the Muslims may possibly deviate. Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done "in the name of Islam."

It should be clear, then, that "Muslim terrorist" is almost an oxymoron: by killing innocent people, a Muslim is commiting an awesome sin, and Allah is Justice personified. This phrase is offensive and demeaning of Islam, and it should be avoided. It is hoped that as the general level of public awareness and understanding of Islam increases, people will keep "terrorism" and "Islam" separate from each other, not to be used in the same phrase.

Another reason advanced in support of the misconception is that the Creator has imposed `jihad' on us. The term "holy war" is from the time of the Crusades and originated in Europe as a rallying cry against the Muslims in Jerusalem. Jihad is an Arabic word meaning struggle, but in the context of many verses in the Qur'an, it carries the meaning of military struggle, or war. Allah gradually introduced the obligation of military struggle to the Muslim community at the time of the Messenger (saas). The first verse ever revealed in that connection is as follows (translation),

[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. The Creator unequivocally orders us to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows (translation),

[2:190-192] And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
As one might imagine, the method of military struggle has been clearly and extensively defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Since this subject is a huge one, we simply summarize part of it by noting that it is unlawful to kill women, children, the infirm, the old, and the innocent. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:

[4257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
A related misconception to jihad is often propagated by Muslims who say that "Jihad is only for self-defense of physical borders." The Qur'an and Sunnah refute this notion categorically. As the verses cited above show, jihad is obligatory wherever there is injustice, and Muslims need not acknowledge imaginary lines around the earth when it comes to upholding this obligation. The Messenger of Allah (saas) has also commented on this extensively in the Sunnah. From the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find that,

[465] Narrated Abu Musa: A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
Hence, the Creator obligates us to fight wherever people are being grossly deprived of freely hearing or practicing the Message of Allah as contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Sayyed Qutb, a famous Muslim scholar eloquently discusses the notion of jihad and self-defense in his book Milestones,

"If we insist on calling Islamic jihad a defensive movement, then we must change the meaning of the word `defense' and mean by it `defense of man' against all those elements which limit his freedom. These elements take the form of beliefs and concepts, as well as of political systems, based on economic, racial, or class distinction."
A third reason often cited for the misconception about Islam which says that this way of life tolerates the killing of innocents is that the judicial system of Islam is unnecessarily harsh. This reason is weak in two respects. First, it presupposes that human beings are more just and more merciful than the Creator, and therefore we can change the law. Second, it is often based on gross oversimplifications of Islamic law, such as saying "all thieves get their hands cut off."

The Qur'an and Sunnah make it clear that the law of retaliation (or equality) governs us for murder and physical injury, but forgiveness is better as the following verses from the Qur'an show (translation),

[2:178] O you who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
[42:40-43] The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.
The Creator ordained the law of retaliation on us knowing full well that we might question it. In many non-Muslim societies today, there are ongoing debates about the death penalty. In Islam, this discussion is moot: the Creator has decided the matter for us. He has however given us an interesting verse in the Qur'an which advises to consider the matter carefully if we want to understand it (translation follows),

[2:179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O people of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.
Most people are also unaware of the stringent conditions which must be met for the law of retaliation to be applicable. The Sunnah is full of examples of the Messenger of Allah showing us when the law's preconditions were fulfilled. For example, a thief is only liable to lose his or her hand if the item stolen exceeds a certain value, and if it is proven that the item was taken from its normal resting place. Stealing food is not punishable by the loss of one's hand, and other items are exempt as well. This is just an example of how gingerly the law is applied in Islam.

Finally, another reason advanced for this prevalent misconception is that Islam `spread by the sword'. It should be clear by now that we must always distinguish between the Qur'an and Sunnah and the Muslims when it comes to determining what the Creator has asked of us. Allah has stated clearly in the Qur'an (translation),

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever rejects Satan (and what he calls to) and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handhold, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Hence, it is impossible to accept Islam under duress. Even if misguided Muslims were to try to `force' Islam somehow on others, it would not be accepted by the Creator based on this verse.

Historical arguments that try to demonstrate that Muslims did not `convert others by force' are actually secondary to the argument given above. However, it is worth noting that historically, Islam did spread by peaceful means. The Message of the Creator was conveyed to Africa and to southeast Asia by trading Muslims, and today the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The military expeditions that led to the conquest of large swathes of territory in Europe and central Asia were all marked by tolerance of other creeds and faith.

Again, it is important to remember that Allah declares it IMPOSSIBLE that Islam can be forced on a person, hence Muslims find it useless to try!
 Never_Assume
Joined: 3/9/2004
Msg: 31
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 10:58:59 AM
Here is your's Raverdad, Research is easy, unless you think it will prove you wrong...

Site: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html

Misconception 3
In Islam, women are inferior to men because:
a man can marry up to 4 wives, a woman can marry only one man

a man's share of inheritance is bigger than a woman's

a man can marry a non-Muslim, a woman cannot

women must wear the veil

This widely held misconception does not remotely follow from the reasons given. The first and most important observation to make about the popular question "Are men and women equal?" is that it is a badly-formed, unanswerable question. The problem which many people conveniently ignore is that "equal" is not defined. This is a very critical point: the equality must be specified with respect to some measurable property. For example, women on average are superior to men if we ask who is shorter in height than the other ("Growth and Development", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1992). Women are also superior on average if we ask whom do children bond to deeper, mothers or fathers. Women are also superior on average if we ask who has a tendency to socialize more. On the other hand, men are superior on average if we ask who is taller in height than the other. And so on: every question can be turned around, and more importantly these are properties which are irrelevant.

What then, is the really important property which we are worried about in terms of gender equality? Naturally, from the point of view of the Qur'an and Sunnah, the obvious important property is who is dearer to Allah, men or women? This question is emphatically answered in the Qur'an (translation),

[4:124] If any do deeds of righteousness - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Paradise, and not the least injustice will be done to them.
[33:35] For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
The Qur'an and Sunnah repeat over and over again that Allah only favors one person over another based on that person's awareness, consciousness, fear, love, and hope of Allah (the Arabic word is difficult to translate: Taqwa). All other criteria are excluded: gender, ethnic group, country, ancestry, etc.

Given that Allah does not favor one gender over the other in His attention to us (and it helps to remember that Allah is neither male nor female), we can now address the differences between the genders in Islam. First, men and women are not the same as we know. The Creator states in the Qur'an (translation),

[3:36]...and the male is not like the female...
Men and women are different in their composition, and in their responsibilities under Islam. However, both are bound by obligations to one another, especially the following important one which must be understood in any discussion on men and women. From the Qur'an (translation),

[24:32] And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
In this verse, the Creator emphasizes that marriage is to be vigorously pursued by the Muslims: the state of being single is not to be maintained. With this in mind, we can begin to understand the four reasons cited above for the nonetheless erroneous conclusion.

Men and women are different in their responsibilities towards the families that they are strongly encouraged to set up. Women are not obligated to work, whereas men are obligated. The man must provide for the family, but the woman does not have to spend out of her money for it, though she gets a reward for doing so. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),

[4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:

[2545] Narrated `Amr bin Al-Harith: Zainab, the wife of `Abdullah said, "I was in the Mosque and saw the Prophet (p.b.u.h) saying, `O women ! Give alms even from your ornaments.' " Zainab used to provide for `Abdullah and those orphans who were under her protection. So she said to `Abdullah, "Will you ask Allah's Apostle whether it will be sufficient for me to spend part of the Zakat on you and the orphans who are under my protection?" He replied "Will you yourself ask Allah's Apostle ?" (Zainab added): So I went to the Prophet and I saw there an Ansari woman who was standing at the door (of the Prophet ) with a similar problem as mine. Bilal passed by us and we asked him, `Ask the Prophet whether it is permissible for me to spend (the Zakat) on my husband and the orphans under my protection.' And we requested Bilal not to inform the Prophet about us. So Bilal went inside and asked the Prophet regarding our problem. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) asked, "Who are those two?" Bilal replied that she was Zainab. The Prophet said, "Which Zainab?" Bilal said, "The wife of `Adullah (bin Masud)." The Prophet said, "Yes, (it is sufficient for her) and she will receive a double rewards (for that): One for helping relatives, and the other for giving Zakat."
Given that husbands are obligated to provide for wives, and that marriage is a highly recommended goal of Islam, it is easy to see why women's inheritance share is half that of men. We note also that men are obligated to provide a suitable dowry to women on marriage. In fact, it is preferable at this point to speak in terms of husbands and wives instead of men and women. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),

[4:4] And give women their dowries as a free gift, but if they of themselves be pleased to give up to you a portion of it, then eat it with enjoyment and with wholesome result.
Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),

[2:228]...And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them...
This one degree in no way affects the position of the Creator in which He has stated that He does not hold women dearer to him than men, or vice versa. Rather it is simply a way of partitioning responsibilities in a household of two adults: someone must make the final decision on daily matters. As will be shown below in a section on a different misconception, though the final decision rests with the husband, it is through mutual consultation that decisions are best reached at.

While men are allowed to marry up to four wives, they are also commanded to meet the preconditions of being able to financially support them. They must also deal with each wife justly and fairly with respect to marital and economic obligations. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),

[4:3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
Moreover, women are allowed to reject any marriage proposal made to her by prospective suitors, thus if she does not feel she can abide by the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah if she marries a certain person, she can reject his proposal. While it is irrelevant to Islam, it is worthwhile to note that both Judaism and Christianity allow polygamy. The idea is not as foreign to the non-Muslims as is often claimed.

Finally, the wearing of the veil by women is also an illogical premise to claim that women are inferior to men. It is more appropriate to indict a society of female exploitation if it tolerates pornography rather than if it enforces the veil. Given that Allah is neither male nor female, given that He does not endear people to Himself based on their gender, given that the Creator cares about all of us male or female, given that the sexual and violent drive of men is stronger than that of women...given all this, it is illogical to cast a negative light on the following injunctions contained in the Qur'an (translation),

[33:59] O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not be annoyed...
[24:30-31] Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands...
On this misconception, there is a great deal more to write, most of it showing how current practices in many Muslim lands go against what the Qur'an and Sunnah have ordained, lands in which women are treated as property (unIslamic), are not educated (unIslamic), are forbidden their economic rights (unIslamic), and more. On this point in particular, we encourage everyone to consult the Qur'an and Sunnah before incriminating Islam. Always remember that Islam is a complete way of life from the Creator, and that Muslims are people who claim to follow that way of life. A Muslim may claim to follow Islam, but be wrong.
 ousu
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 32
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:05:39 AM
organized religion seems to be just another way to politicize and polarize people for/against each other to suit the interests of certain powerful people in society.


Could not agree more with this writer.
I do not see big difference between organized religions nor politics. Both are playing with the idea "we" versus "the others".
Somebody mentioned the crusades. They were started for political and economical reasons by Roman Catholic church which was using the religion and false rumours as an excuse. The reason to participate crusades depended on individual himself; one good reason was the absolution. The pope promised to absolve the participiants of these "holy projects" from all their sins. Didn't Bush mentioned the word "crusade" in his early speeches?
Using a religion as an excuse for political acts is just a normal practise. No different from what was happening during the cold war: both sides were using propaganda shamelessly.
 yynot
Joined: 5/31/2005
Msg: 33
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:11:52 AM
Raverdad,

Do a little research on the history of Western meddling in the ME. I don't blame the West for all of the ME's problems..but a significant chunk in my estimation.
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 34
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:23:02 AM
Yynot,

that s a two way street. Unless you want to completely ignore Turkish medlding in Europe under the Ottoman's whose echoes are still killing people today (Bosnia, Cyprus, and Kosovo). There are other examples as well Islam did not burts on to the scene throwing roses and preaching love.

Kinky,


[4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


It dosn't matter what the Koran says in the year 2006CE. What matters is this

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood (and all the other articles as well)

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Adopted and proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."

Islam needs to bring itself into line with this proclamation. if it won't then like the worship of Zues it needs to be discarde donto the dustbin of history. Most magor faiths have made these changes in practice if not in text. Islam has done nothign but try and pretend the modern age dosn't exist. You have muslims in western countries pushing for Sharia law of all things.
 yynot
Joined: 5/31/2005
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:40:20 AM
Raverdad,

I'm talking relatively recent history, ever since lines were drawn on a map dividing the Arabic peninsula in a fashion that best suited the interests of Western powers. As for bosnia and kosovo, who was responsible for most of the mass killings and rapes? Who were the victims? The West, to their credit, eventually intervened.
 Never_Assume
Joined: 3/9/2004
Msg: 36
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:46:38 AM

[2:228]...And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them...

This one degree in no way affects the position of the Creator in which He has stated that He does not hold women dearer to him than men, or vice versa. Rather it is simply a way of partitioning responsibilities in a household of two adults: someone must make the final decision on daily matters. As will be shown below in a section on a different misconception, though the final decision rests with the husband, it is through mutual consultation that decisions are best reached at.


You misconstrued the word "Excel". It talks about separation of responsibilites regarding the family. They are not property. The men are entreated to be "protectors" not "slavers".

It is easy to quote specifics, but it's better to read the whole thing.

And I hope that you follow the rule of Government so sedately when they try to take a way your guns. You know, because you might need to bring yourself in line with that proclamation. Or be discarded on the "dustbin" of history.

The reality is that you know only what you've been fed about Islam and Muslims, yet you feel qualified to make blanket statements that cover millions of people. You so easily suggest that a Religion and way of life be discarded when your own country is barely a child by comparison.

Perhaps you are right, but you are not qualified to make that decision.
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 37
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 11:47:26 AM
I would argue that Americans as a whole are more blameworthy for the loss of innocent lives than any muslim is for lives lost as a result of actions perpetrated by individual muslims. Bush was democratically elected.

^^^

Whoa, hold the phone. I am responsible? I don't even like Bush and I certainly didn't vote for him. But some nutcase sitting in a blown out building in Iraq wants me dead.

I am responsible? Yeah, I really forced a so-called Muslim cutting off the head of an innocent man who then yelled "God is Great".

No, this is an unexcusable statement to make. Blame the ugly invisible average American. Most of us are just trying to keep ourselves afloat from day to day.

The response of the Arab World against all this is (in my opinion, and a HELL of a lot of others) WEAK! Clerics STILL have NOT come forward denouncing Bin Laden.


From what I understand, the insurgents don't WANT elections. They don't want the women of the middle east to have freedom and the right to think. Stop screaming about Americans as a whole and start denouncing the insurgents who want to set the clock back to the beginning of time!

Speak out against the extremists, because they are causing you great harm.

Now this ugly American is going back to munching his cheetos and watching Jerry Springer.

Get er done!


Tater Toon
 raverdad
Joined: 11/10/2004
Msg: 38
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 12:04:59 PM
Kinky,


The reality is that you know only what you've been fed about Islam and Muslims, yet you feel qualified to make blanket statements that cover millions of people. You so easily suggest that a Religion and way of life be discarded when your own country is barely a child by comparison.


You are of course aware that the United States is the oldest survivng goverment in the world correct?

Yynot

Bosnia- Bosnia muslim sepratist started the conflict by attmepting to break away form the Yugoslav federation. yes the serbs went way over board but the conflict started with muslim speratist.

Kosovo, Started by ethic albanian but religiously muslim sepratist.

Cyprus, invaded by Turkey in a continuation of a hellenic/ilsamic fued goign back to when the prohets armies first emerged in Arabia.

The middle east was carved up by the League of Nations (Europe) after the collapse of the ottoman Empire in WW1. Givne the Muslim hsitory of dividing conquered territory among the victors. i woudl say what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

More recently ther eis nassers closing of the Suez, OPEC taking a stab and global blackmail, Ilsamic funding of sepratist inside of Russia etc.
 Never_Assume
Joined: 3/9/2004
Msg: 39
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 12:10:56 PM

You are of course aware that the United States is the oldest survivng goverment in the world correct?


When did "Government" become interchangeable with "Religion" or "Civilization"?

Somewhat presumptuous of you.
 Never_Assume
Joined: 3/9/2004
Msg: 40
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 12:13:10 PM

The people of the Six Nations, also known by the French term, Iroquois [1] Confederacy, call themselves the Hau de no sau nee (ho dee noe sho nee) meaning People Building a Long House. Located in the northeastern region of North America, originally the Six Nations was five and included the Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas. The sixth nation, the Tuscaroras, migrated into Iroquois country in the early eighteenth century. Together these peoples comprise the oldest living participatory democracy on earth. Their story, and governance truly based on the consent of the governed, contains a great deal of life-promoting intelligence for those of us not familiar with this area of American history. The original United States representative democracy, fashioned by such central authors as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, drew much inspiration from this confederacy of nations. In our present day, we can benefit immensely, in our quest to establish anew a government truly dedicated to all life's liberty and happiness much as has been practiced by the Six Nations for over 800 hundred years


http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/

And again, your wrong.
 ousu
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 41
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 12:18:47 PM

They don't want the women of the middle east to have freedom and the right to think.

Hmmm, I have met pretty many women of the Middle East who speak and think a lot - openly.
- I think the problem here is mostly the generalizing. As Toonsmith pointed out also all Americans are not as the goverment we see (here from outside). So one should be more careful when talking about muslims as one group. Personally I am disgusted when I am pointed as one of the Westerners in the conversations concerning the actions taken by some Western goverments in Middle East. It is frustrating to remind all the time many people are against both the American goverment and the extreme muslims, and that many just do not see such big difference between the actions both parties are taking.
Heh, this is a bit provocating but I do not see even American women are that equal (nor women in my own country though Northern countries are supposed to be in "special" position in this) - just counting the number of female leaders and politicians compared to male leaders. This is a "polyphonia" - as many truths as there are speakers.
 yynot
Joined: 5/31/2005
Msg: 42
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 12:47:53 PM
Toon,

I said you are more blameworthy than the average muslim dude, not that you personally are. The logic is simple. In a democratic state, you have a say in who leads you, and for better or worse, at least you had a say. Individual muslims in the ME don't have this luxury.

Raverdad,


Bosnia- Bosnia muslim sepratist started the conflict by attmepting to break away form the Yugoslav federation. yes the serbs went way over board but the conflict started with muslim speratist.

Kosovo, Started by ethic albanian but religiously muslim sepratist.

Cyprus, invaded by Turkey in a continuation of a hellenic/ilsamic fued goign back to when the prohets armies first emerged in Arabia.

The middle east was carved up by the League of Nations (Europe) after the collapse of the ottoman Empire in WW1. Givne the Muslim hsitory of dividing conquered territory among the victors. i woudl say what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

More recently ther eis nassers closing of the Suez, OPEC taking a stab and global blackmail, Ilsamic funding of sepratist inside of Russia etc


Are you suggesting that if people want a separate state of their own its ok to slaughter them. In this case, in Canada, if Quebec ever did vote for separation, then I guess the rest of Canada has a right to invade and slaughter its inhabitants. I think not.

As for the ME, if your argument is simple what is good for the goose is good for the gander, then at least don't give me all that crap about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Might is Right is the actual rule you seem to be advocating.
 backworduck
Joined: 11/27/2005
Msg: 43
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 12:48:28 PM
funny, peoples interpretations of justice and teachings are only expressed through their own eyes...

stand back and look at it from the outside. all sides Kill in the name of Idolatry (Religious and Political) and at the same time preach the opposite. all of organized Religion that i've studied do this, and i've tried to read some from all. name one that hasn't killed in the name of their Lord?

then look at it from the other side... why do they need to fear us? they don't.

can't you see your being used?

no-one can be Blessed to Kill in the name of God. one Nation can never take up Arms against another Nation. all Religions and Nations that do this on purpose should be taken as a serious threat to human rights. we have been as guilty as them of doing the same thing.

and our human rights are being seriously threatened everywhere in the world.

innocent children are being killed

wage peace
 Babylonia
Joined: 1/27/2005
Msg: 44
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 1:05:54 PM

name one that hasn't killed in the name of their Lord?


Wicca (not humans, at least, and not counting the lies spread by Christian propaganda)
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 45
view profile
History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 2:33:23 PM
Personally, I don't think I have much of a say in what our Government is doing in the middle east at all.

I get very distressed watching American soldiers blowing up buildings in Iraq and raiding homes of innocent people, scaring the crap out of women and children. I watch this and wonder "Why are we there again?"

In reference to woman's rights in the middle east. I am repeating the point I learned while watching a PBS special last night. This show was very disturbing. It showed the footage of extremists blowing themselves up. It showed the beheading (and I can still hear the victim screaming) of the hostage.

The point about women's rights, is that the insurgents don't believe the women should have any. They should stay home and take care of the kids and their men and not make waves in a men's world.

I am not offering any opinion about middle eastern women and their freedoms, only repeating what the show stated. Insurgents are harsh on women.


These insurgents are nothing more than barbaric murderous thugs. It is one thing to protest the goings on of interfering countries, quite another to go against the faith and cut someones head off. I don't think Allah would be very happy.

I know the middle east has a large population of very intelligent outspoken women, but their issues in Iran are taking a back seat at the moment, while the men are busy rattling their swords. Some very interesting Iranian films are being released about women's issues in Iran.

My own personal perception of Islam gets very negative. The segment of extremists grows larger and larger, the barbaric acts continue. The Western World has its faults and we tend to wallow in our materialistic goals....but everything I've seen about the Arab World tends to show that it is a very violent and backward society with some very big issues. (I do like the music though)

Just my 2 cents.


Toon
 ousu
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 46
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 3:07:55 PM
Toon, I think I understand your point. - What becomes to Iran it is still equally divided as America is (or some other countries) what becomes to the goverment's policy and its supporters versus those who do not agree with the goverment. I have some Iranian friends who follow the laws (e.g. dress code) when in Iran and different kind of dress code when outside Iran. Still the life style when at home also in Iran can be totally different what it looks like for outsiders. The documents are not showing couples cuddleing, women teasing or lecturing their husbands, dancing parties, etc.

My point is that because of some extreme people we should not talk about the whole population of a country or area. Same concerns me and my friends, I admit: we should not be joking about American way at this moment even though in our eyes those discussions about abortion and family values look like an attempt to get backwards into more patriarchal system. - Perhaps every country has its own way??? In my country men could have not done without the help of women (outside home) in the past due to hard climat and very small population which possibly created so different system from some other countries.

Anyway, I have become very sceptical what is shown by media. Even documents. All works are after all creations of their creators, and they bring in them their own world view. The way we see the world, how we estimate it is our cultural heritance and as such part of us - wanted or not. E.g. we here see mostly certain type of America in media - of course it is mostly the goverment in the news. It easily makes us forget that there is something more to discover. :)
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 47
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History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 3:30:37 PM
It is good to be skeptical. The media certainly does put a twist on things. But I feel I have learned quite a bit from Frontline and other shows on PBS.

I was astonished to see videos of our military base in Bagdad. Not as rough for the soldiers there as I thought. Air conditioning, rec rooms, three kinds of ice cream, even a pizza hut on the base.

They also covered the issue of unqualified subcontractors hired to perform as security and how that was interfering with professional soldiers. Companies were hiring former bouncers from bars to do the work!

It is certainly up to us to take the information and try to come to some understanding of what is going on. It does have some bias, no doubt. But much better than some of the other outlets for news....such as Fox or CNN. The BBC does a pretty good job.


Toon
 acesolak
Joined: 6/28/2005
Msg: 48
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 4:15:51 PM

The response of the Arab World against all this is (in my opinion, and a HELL of a lot of others) WEAK! Clerics STILL have NOT come forward denouncing Bin Laden.


From what I understand, the insurgents don't WANT elections. They don't want the women of the middle east to have freedom and the right to think. Stop screaming about Americans as a whole and start denouncing the insurgents who want to set the clock back to the beginning of time!

Speak out against the extremists, because they are causing you great harm.


Right on Toon. Right on !!

Clerics won't come forward unless they wanna confront millions of muslims who rally and hate the west. My guess is a cleric like that won't live long.

There are also moderate muslims as well, who don't hate the west(may be not like it either but)lol. The point is, haters taken the stage and doing their thing while moderates are either out of the country(smart choice) or keeping quite(another smart choice).

-Solak
 Caesarea
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 49
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 4:17:47 PM
completel_kinky:

How do you then explain what is said in the hadith Sahih Muslim (Note. Sahih Muslim is accepted as a hadith by Sunni only)

"
Book 001, Number 0142:

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Umar that the Messenger of Allah observed: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense, and you spend some nights (and days) in which you do not offer prayer and in the month of Ramadan (during the days) you do not observe fast, that is a failing in religion. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Abu Tahir with this chain of transmitters."


Or from the Quaran (Note 3 different translations):
"
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."


Is this equality?
 Singlemaltgirl
Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 50
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History
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 4:20:37 PM
i don't know if many of the posters remember back in the ol' cold war days but there was a great deal of media attention focused on another big bad bogey man. that was the grand ussr and we fueled an arms race and fought to ally ourselves quicker than the enemy with strategic nations. the west fought the east - it was a war of capitalism and democracy vs communism and dictatorships. we knew little about the ussr or the people who lived behind the iron curtain. we feared our neighbours were spies if they were of eastern european descent. we only knew that we feared and made assumptions and speculated on the reasons why they hated the west so and wanted to kill us all in a nuclear holocaust.

now turn the page to today. the new bogey man is islam. our ignorance builds our fear; our media revels in the hype and now we are afraid of our neighbours who happen to have that tanned skin of the "terrorist's" variety. the west is once again fueling an arms race. we are invading nations that are of strategic importance.....

anyone see the similarities?
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