| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 4:30:48 PM | I may have a negative perception of Muslim men.....but the women I've seen are beautiful.
Just my humble opinion, but they should listen more to their female counterparts. Maybe the world wouldn't be in such a mess?
Toon  | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 4:31:51 PM | singlemaltgirl, there are many differences too.
For instance, America is still allied with a large number of Arab countries.
There was no direct fighting between Russia and America.
The Russian's didnt place fatwas (and carry them out) on westerners that criticised communism. | |
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tr1414
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Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 54 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 6:55:08 PM | Those of you who don't see that muslims are the emeny need help. How quick you forget 9/11, most sane people don't want another one. Look anywhere in the world today, it's Muslims fighting anginst somebody. Liberals are fond of saying that Isliam is peaseful, bullshit!
The Qur'an orders Muslims to fight, kill and not to befriend non-Muslims. The sooner you bleeding heart liberals see this the better. But I don't think the Howard Dean wing of your party every will see the truth for what it is....right up untill they cut YOUR head off.
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/9/2006 8:54:10 PM | wow, so many people would still think the earth is flat if the bible still told them so. questioning authority has always been a sin.
(babylonia, i don't consider Wicca a male dominated religion as i do Judaism, Christianity and Islam, you are correct.)
its these male dominated religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are the root of Sexism and Bigotry in our society today.
these are ideals of the past and they don't work here any more.
even Catholic Theology is now teaching that the Bible is a Male construct used to control people rape them of their resources. this is not coming from the top down, but rather the bottom-up. the Pope will never admit to this, but thousands of first year theology students do, and hundreds of teachers. they are calling it the "bottom-up revolution".
it's those 'damned' fundamentalist on all sides that are keeping us in the dark ages.
as we see, fear trumps common sense every time, and they know how to play the fear trick. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/10/2006 5:54:35 AM |
Those of you who don't see that muslims are the emeny need help. How quick you forget 9/11, most sane people don't want another one. Look anywhere in the world today, it's Muslims fighting anginst somebody. Liberals are fond of saying that Isliam is peaseful, bullshit!
The Qur'an orders Muslims to fight, kill and not to befriend non-Muslims. The sooner you bleeding heart liberals see this the better. But I don't think the Howard Dean wing of your party every will see the truth for what it is....right up untill they cut YOUR head off.
A delusional rant by someone who knows literally nothing about Islam, Muslims, or the Qur'an. Islam strictly forbids killing innocents, at the cost of your eternal soul.
You share a lot in common with guys like Hitler and Stalin. They believed that everyone of a certain type must all be the same. I'm sure you even endorse their solution. I fully believe that if you had one button that would kill all Muslims you'd push it in an instant. Without ever knowing the full story.
That's the most amazing thing about you idiots. That you actually think you know everything. That you really believe that what you are fed is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That your extremist ways are justified by half truths and an utter lack of knowledge.
You are more of an Extremist than 99.9% of Muslims. And that is the absolute truth.
And as for you lumping all Muslims together? That's just retarded. Absolute idiocy. This is the same as saying that anyone who shares anything with you (religion, race, creed, whatever) who is evil or does evil essentially makes you evil!
SOME MUSLIMS MAY BE EXTREMISTS, NOT ALL MUSLIMS, NOT EVEN A SMALL PERCENTAGE!!
All you ever see is the bad side. You are trained, brainwashed, and misled by the media because they can sell more commercial slots showing you the big bad Muslim than they can showing you the peaceful reality of Islam.
And as for the Qur'an, I'm pretty sure there is a section in the Bible about "An eye for an eye".
Stop being a f*cking sheep and start thinking independently... | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/10/2006 8:55:18 AM | caesarea - sure there are a lot of differences as well. but what i was trying to highlight (and maybe not very well!) was the idea that the west always needs a bogey man...an enemy...a group of people to point at as an insidious threat. in this way, we can justify fueling arms races, fueling the military industrial complex, fueling military spending and justifying it to taxpayers using the fear card.
and before you say that russians didn't have suicide bombers or perpetrate stuff on american soil...think back at the mccarthy era when we went after anyone with a communist leaning, or communist sympathies. we feared that they were spying on the administration, spying on our military technology and that they would do something on american soil...we thought russians/communists were doing stuff on american soil - we just didn't know what.
no there was no direct fighting on ussr or american soil - instead we fought on other countries that got caught in the middle - afganistan and vietnam are good examples of just that. and now it's been brought to the american doorstep. but those muslim terrorists declaring war on the west are doing so, not because of religion (that's just the manipulation by the puppeteers) but for economic and political interests of their leaders.
this is not unlike what happened over the cold war between the ussr and the us. | |
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Hezron
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 58 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/10/2006 9:15:15 AM | | Singlemaltgirl...you said it. I have been arguing for a long time now that the way power works in the west is that the the government and the people behind them with the big money always provide us with a bogeyman to fixate upon for our problems. In this way we can always be riled up enough to hate a group and be ready to pay for the wars that kill them etc. Control is always maintained through fear. It is the single most effective means of generating popular consensus amongst a large group. So we keep fighting the same wars over and over for the same reasons and yet they want us to beleive each time we are protecting ourselves against an evil enemy ofthe righteous empire. As long as we let it work...it will keep happening...this is not even conspiracy theory in thesense that most people would take it. This is how complex human systems operate. We just can't seem to find ways of breaking the cycles!!!!!!!! | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/10/2006 10:06:47 AM |
its these male dominated religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are the root of Sexism and Bigotry in our society today.
Now I agree with you r comment on islam and don't know enough to comment on Judaism but I am a Christian.
Paul gives some very clear guideline sin the Bible (New Testament) on how couples should interact. Below is a well written essay on it. I woudl also add that paul seemed to also posses a rare insight into how most males work. The wives submit unto your husbands also seems to carry with the silent but implied " in public, lest you bruise his fragile ego and cause strife"
He tells woman to submit to thier husbands. Now this is taken out of context by the man is God fundamentlaist and the man needs no God anti-religion types.
The words "Wives, submit to your husbands" (Ephesians 5:22), are usually seen as being anti-women. However, they are actually part of an effort by Paul to raise the status of women, not to lower it.
In the pagan Roman Empire, husbands had the legal right to kill their wives. It was not murder. The wife obviously deserved it.
So how could the new religion, Christianity, preach equality when to do so would mean women across the Empire would be killed? The solution wasn't to bring women up to the status of men, but to bring men down to the status of women. Consider Paul's message to the Ephesians to see how he does this:
Submit to one another
out of reverence for Christ.
Wives, submit to your husbands... (Ephesians 5:21-22).
Paul's procedure was to give a general statement that all Christians are to submit to one another. For wives to submit to their husbands is merely an example of the command to "submit to one another."
If we try to think with Paul's Hebrew mind, we see that he specifically says husbands are to submit to their wives' needs. He says
Husbands, love your wives
like Christ loved the church
and gave himself for her... (Ephesians 5:25).
These verses say that the husband must love the wife to the extent that he would die for her -- as Christ died for the church. The words mean that if someone is about to throw a javelin into a woman, her husband has the duty to step in the path of the javelin, to die for her.
Greatest includes least
In Hebrew thinking, the greatest case includes the least. So if the husband has to submit to the wife's needs in the most extreme case, he has to submit to them in the least case also.
Let me explain this. In English, if we wanted to make a general rule, we would state the least case and it would cover the greatest case. Thus, "Don't even tell white lies" would also cover the worst form of lie, telling a lie under oath in court. The Hebrew states the worst case and it covers the least. Thus a Hebrew command, "Do not commit perjury," also covers white lies.
So back to Ephesians. If the husband has to submit to his wife's needs in the most extreme case (where he dies for her), he has to also submit to her needs in the least extreme case. Thus, the command to love as Christ loved is a restatement of the command to submit -- because submitting is how Christ loved us. However, Paul gives his instruction in a way that will not infringe Roman Law.
Another way of looking at this is the power of habit. If the husband has to submit to his wife's needs in the most extreme case, he needs to have developed the habit of submitting to her needs. If he did not regularly submit to her needs, he would not be in the habit of submitting when he had to sacrifice his life for her. For him to obey the command to die for her, there has to be a habit pattern of submitting to her needs. Thus, the necessity of having a habit pattern also demonstrates this interpretation is correct.
This whole section of Ephesians is actually written in poetry -- the Hebrew style of poetry which features parallel lines. If we read the section as poetry, it further helps establish that Paul is trying to elevate the status of women.
Submit to one another
out of reverence for Christ.
Wives, submit to your husbands
as if to the Lord.
For a husband is "head" of the wife
as Christ is "head" of the church.
He is saviour of the "body."
Like the church submits to Christ,
wives should submit to their husbands,
in everything.
Husbands, love your wives
like Christ loved the church.
He gave himself for her
to make her holy,
cleansing her
by washing her
with water
and the word (Ephesians 5:21-26).
Notice that poetically, the first lines of each of the sections addressing men and women are parallel.
Wives, submit to your husbands.
Husbands, love your wives.
Poetically, the parallel may be considered a development, with the word "submit" being replaced by "love." However, it could also be considered a restatement, which I suggest it is. Christian love includes submission. So when men are told to love to their wives, the poetic parallel suggests it means submit to them.
Husband not boss
But what about the specific statement that the "husband is head of the wife" (Ephesians 5:23)? In English, we get the wrong message from this verse. This is not saying the husband is the boss.
In Greek the word "head" does not have the two meanings it has in English (where it both means the head on our shoulders and a leader). The Greek word has only one meaning, the head on our shoulders. So this verse is an illustration, using the double meaning that the church is a "body." The relationship between husband and wife, like that of Christ and the church, should be as close as the relationship between a person's head and body.
Rather than the word "head" meaning leader, the poetic parallel here shows it is more likely to be a metaphor for "saviour," or "rescuer."
Unfortunately, some modern prose translations contribute to the view that Paul is downgrading women. Instead of starting a new paragraph at verse 21, which the poetry requires, the NIV, for example, starts it at verse 22 -- which splits the command for mutual submission from the rest of the passage. To make it worse, most NIV editions put a headline between verses 21 and 22 -- further hiding the fact that verse 22 is an illustration of verse 21.
Ephesians goes far beyond outlining the equality of husbands and wives. It also advocated the equality of children and slaves -- both of whom a Roman man had the legal right to kill.
Here in Ephesians, Paul tells wives to submit to their husbands, and vice versa. He tells fathers to submit to their children (Ephesians 6:1-3), and vice versa (Ephesians 6:4). And he tells slaves to submit to their masters (Ephesians 6:5-8), and vice versa (Ephesians 6:9).
This passage of Paul's is one of history's great passages written to raise the status of women, children and slaves.
Both mutually submissive
If Paul had preached the modern style of feminism, that men and women are equal in dominance, his campaign would have been extremely short-lived. Any woman advocating Paul's views could be killed by her husband. And Paul himself may have found himself before the courts for advocating this rebellion. However, there was nothing illegal in advocating equality by mutual submission -- which is the true form of Christian equality (Mark 9:35). | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 60 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/10/2006 10:09:58 AM |
no there was no direct fighting on ussr or american soil - instead we fought on other countries that got caught in the middle
And this is why there has been a suggestion that next time there will be a bigger war it one of these countries will host it, and the participation will be open for all who are willing :)
I agree with Singlemaltgirl. Further more, ad hoc Russia was using "war against terrorism" as an excuse for Chechnya. There are no political interests without economical interests behind them. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 61 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/10/2006 10:14:50 AM | Toon,
I may have a negative perception of Muslim men.....but the women I've seen are beautiful.
The gender should be irrelevant. The world would not be such a mess - perhaps - if people would communicate a bit more and forget their fear of difference (and change) since that is what the politics is exploiting for ruling us. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/10/2006 10:16:22 AM | Raverdad,
With a couple of words changed here and there you could be desribing the exact way that the Qur'an has been misinterpreted.
But I wonder if you'd see it that way?
Without posting the whole thing check this link out, especially Misconception #3.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/11/2006 8:53:36 AM | people would still think the earth is flat if the bible still told them so.
^^But the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat.... in fact in indicates it's spherical.
the Bible is a Male construct used to control people rape them of their resources. ^^^So the fact that it inspired the likes of Mother Theresa & Sisters of Mercy to pick abandoned babies
out of trash bins in Calcutta and care for AIDS-ridden prostitutes and other low-caste 'untouchables' is coincidental?
Not to mention the tens-of-thousands of others inspired by the example of Christ and 'Liberation Theology'
to devote their lives to helping the poor.
And I suppose ppl. like Rev.Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks - whose faith gave them the courage to peacefully
confront and bring an end to the injustice of racial segregation - were just 'Bible bashers'?
And what about folk like Bono & others who are using the biblical construct of 'Jubilee' to confront the systematic injustice
of Third World economic poverty? Did the Bible inspire them to "rape people of their resources"??
Hmmmm..... perhaps tr1414 isn't the only one making generalisations?
In anycase, I can think of few other people who subverted the sexist attitudes of their times
as much as Christ: It's hard to imagine in our cultural context how revolutionary it was for
him to even be teaching women one-2-one...... or associating with prostitutes.....
.....or stopping a group of men from stoning to death the woman caught in adultery.
Just the fact that the Gospel accounts show women being the only ones to stick by
Christ when all his male followers had either betrayed him or fled..... and the fact that the
same women were the first to see and report the resurrection, while the men are
portrayed as ignorant and refusing to beleive the women, is subversive of so many cultural attitudes in itself.
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 1:52:03 PM | When you see the reaction of Muslims when someone draws a comic, or says or does anything to irritate them, a question comes to mind.
Mainstream Islam says that what radical Islam is doing is wrong. So, why don't Muslims clean up their own mess. It sounds to me that Mainstream Islam IS Radical Islam. They never do anything to clean their own house and they seem to support (at least emotionally) the acts of terrorists.
This is very confusing... Which is it? I can't believe that Muslims wouldn't have captured and killed Bin Ladin and his little buddies long before now if Mainstream Muslims were the people they claim they are. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 66 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 1:59:22 PM | Widow96, I think the reason (
why don't Muslims clean up their own mess. ) is pretty similar why those who do not agree with American military policy do not "clean the mess up"...
- My point is: we cannot talk about Muslims even in two categories - Mainstream and Radical - when asking for actions. Like it would be pretty funny to call other Nordic countries to do something if e.g. Denmark was behaving badly :) | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 2:34:07 PM | | Hi Ousu, I'm not talking about normal disagreements. If Radical Islam wants to go nuts over a comic then why don't they go nuts over a sociopath teaching false Islam and pushing the suicide of their own people. The point here is Terrorism, not things that can be resolved peacefully. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 2:52:31 PM |
If Radical Islam wants to go nuts over a comic then why don't they go nuts over a sociopath teaching false Islam and pushing the suicide of their own people. The point here is Terrorism, not things that can be resolved peacefully.
same reason most americans don't go nuts about the other well known sociopath teaching falsehoods about democracy and pushing his people to go kill other people. I guess you don't need me to tell you his name but just in case...I will give you this hint. his name starts with a b and ends with ush.
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 69 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 3:03:40 PM | Hi Widow,
still I think the reason is the same :) We just cannot put all the Islamic nations in the same category. Terrorism would not be terrorism if it was that visible, right? Suicide is not... that odd way to fight. Remember Japanese kamikazes? It depends on values in the culture, too. Western countries (IMHO) are more individual centred than many Asian or Middle East countries where the group you belong to becomes before your personal interests. - Also the false Islam issue (haa, I am trying to confuse you now totally!): how many different ways to believe we have in this Christianity based side of the world? I think a Catholic really believes he is right when the other are thinking he is wrong.
Do you get my point? I do not have answers but I am trying to remember the things are not always as we see them from where we are standing. :) | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 3:04:45 PM | | Hi EpsilonBJ, Isn't it wonderful that you can not only have that opinion, but you can express it without having someone try to harm you. Try that with either Radical or Mainstream Islam. See what it gets you. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 3:11:35 PM | Hi Again Ousu, You're right that people join an organization because they believe in the nature of the organization. i.e. Flavour of Christianity. The point is that people have the freedom to do that in the west. People in the West tend to celebrate life. Radical Islam celebrates only death. Over the centuries Christians have done lots of ill upon others. The Japanese nationalism that caused people to become Kamikazes and give up their lives.
I agree with you that social ideology plays a big part of what people do. I suspect that if I was living in the desert and bored out of my mind, that perhaps I would fall into the same issues. The point is that people, so called leaders, so called religious, are lying to their own people to give the leaders power. The principle is partially false, just enough to get some poor dumb kid to murder and commit suicide. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 72 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 3:23:59 PM | Widow :) Your voice is so calm and peaceful that it is impossible to attack you :)
That is what politics is - has always been. As we here are wondering how on earth it is possible that e.g. Bush administration can do some things to its own people (misleading, letting social system to collapse, Katherina case, leading the economy in dangerous state). Politics = manipulation.
The power can be visible or hidden. There was one a thread about Palestine and Israel and somehow I could understand suicide bombing to be one of the tools of making a war against enemy - nasty but still just one of the tools. Similar kind what Soviet Union soldiers experienced when in war with Finland: either you go on or will be shot by your own officers who where behind the troops. In a war (and this is a war about which we are talking) people are just cannon fodder. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 3:42:15 PM |
Hi EpsilonBJ, Isn't it wonderful that you can not only have that opinion, but you can express it without having someone try to harm you. Try that with either Radical or Mainstream Islam. See what it gets you.
ya I know and I am using that wonderful thing called freedom of speech. I also know something about islamic fundamentalism. what I also know is that a lot of people don't seem to realize the bush version of fundamentalism. his actions cannot be justified under any human, decent and established western norm.
He hijacked america for his own beliefs and the interests of the few. I am sorry for the people who do not see that.
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 3:42:54 PM | Hi Ousu, Politics are certainly a good example of Manipulation. On the other hand, it's accepted manipulation. In this example we have people in a nation that don't want to do the government stuff. So we have a system to "elect" other citizens that seem to want to do that kind of thing. People being people, we all have our individual talents, and there will always be people in government at all it's levels that will be better than other people at a particular job, and others will always be worse at it. The Government is functioning, and is super political because that is the nature of the beast. Although it is sometimes entertaining to see so many politically manipulated people being emotionally drained by all sides in politics.
As individual people that don't want to be in government (except to pay taxes & vote) we are living our lives and trying to get ahead. In the United States, the military is volunteer. The majority of soldiers "in country" know they are doing a good work. And anyone that has a good understanding of history will recognize that as far as dead/wounded on both sides, and general conduct of the war on terror (both military and intelligence) is one of the "kindest" wars in world history. No fire bombing of German & Japanese cities. Everything is so surgical that a building can be destroyed and for the most part the next door neighbor is relatively unscathed.
Naturally, the politically charged statements from "the other side" and the politically charged people in the West that love to accept anything negative about the US, are far flying and extremely entertaining. What people are willing to believe is very interesting. So I guess we should always continue to Question Authority. When authority is found to be "wrong" according to the social desire then there is a way to change it. This is all very interesting. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 3/19/2006 3:47:36 PM | Thanks EpsilonBJ, I can see you have very strong feelings about what you believe. The world is filled with different kinds of people. It's a wonder that any of us are able to live together at all. Fortunately, if we are patient we are able to find someone to be with that will have a similar belief system and intellectual appreciation of the world.
Frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way. It would be very dangerous for any social order to have a singular perspective about everything. Fortunately, in the US there is great opportunity for checks and balances. And when those checks and balances are or appear to be violated, the people can rise up and have a voice to demand that someone explains or changes what is perceived to be "wrong".
I'm glad you exist, Epsilon! Keep up the good work! | |
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