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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/14/2006 7:08:51 PM | jack Rez
Listen muslim buddy! It kinda fascinates me how you defend islam in every thread and you say "Other Religion" in your profile. most muslims are now afraid to say they are muslims and they try to defend it at the very same time.anyways, It was not bush who initiated this ridiculous war by crashing those planes to the twin towers and killing thousands of innocents by the name of "JEHAD", and yes I do know exactly that's what jehad is, so don't tell me no. that's what muhammed initiated in his presence is medina and mekka( where he couldn't stay for a long time).
Qur’an 8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
that's just one of million examples I can provide from this "holy book".
It is none of your damn business what me or any other individual in this forum practice. I think you need to add abit of brain in your head to even be able to debate with me. I have studied all religions and will defend any religion that I wish as long as I know about it.
What I recommend to you is sign up in kindergarten so that you could discuss with people who don't know things ie. kids.
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/14/2006 9:48:49 PM |
We don't have the Quran as a motivator though. This is life and death for them.
It's life and death for us, also. The sooner we realize this fact, the better our chances of survival. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/14/2006 9:59:08 PM | hezron
how easy do you thonk it is for the upper powers to get muslims whipped into hating the west when we bomb them and control their resources
they hated the western world way before bombs. | |
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bobby7
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 104 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/14/2006 10:16:12 PM | | My God...If you have paid attention...Would you be making these silly statements?? I was willing to accord you more intelligence than this...Don't prove me wrong!!! | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/14/2006 11:25:38 PM | redwood34 says...
bush attacking iraq
and...
Clinton for attacking iraq
Ummm...bush invading iraq....yes, I know their both verbs, but the meaning are rather different, don't you think?
I think Clinton did it under the auspices of the UN...bush ignored the UN...
I noticed you did not capitalize bush, but you did Clinton...
A Freudian slip, perhaps  | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/15/2006 9:32:19 PM | | if i remember correctly bush went to the u.n and tried to get them to enforce the resloutions that they themselves voted on against saddam. the u.n sat on their asses and refused, with france and germany leading the argument against gwb....of course it was later discovered that these and other countries were secretly making deals with saddam... i believe kofi jr was also involved in these secret dealings. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/17/2006 10:53:18 AM | cetified male
ive read some of your comments, you really are a plonker and dont have a clue. You seem to make judgements without doing any homework. Read the comments from ange nuite....that will surely shut up your negative perception of classing all as one...
R | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/19/2006 7:56:33 PM |
I think Clinton did it under the auspices of the UN...bush ignored the UN...
Clinton didn't go to the UN to be rejected. He just pushed the button without asking. He knew he had the authority to do it based on the previous resolutions. You don't need to form coalitions to send cruise missles. If you want to set up an argument for your case, at least remember the correct version of historical facts.
The reasons for "attacking" Iraq were the same. The reason for invading Iraq is still held tightly by the Intelligence people who swayed Bush, but I think anybody with a reasonable understanding of Geography can see the significance of American troops in that location.
What if Israel and Palestine started a fight, and our troops were sitting at home? The significance of tens of thousands of American boots in that region will likely prevent Iran from running to the aid of Hezbollah and Hamas, and might even deter Syria. Syria would be crushed by Israel without Saddam and the Baathists behind them. Whether you appreciate the protection of Israel, or oppose it, you still have to see the stragegic significance. There are not tens of thousands of Iraqis rushing into Syria right now, so Palestine and Hezbollah are going to have to go this one alone. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/19/2006 8:14:27 PM |
If you actually took the time to look you would find that the number of Muslim leaders preaching jihad world-wide is a very miniscule minority, kind of on par with hateful Christian community leaders.
I guess that's why the polls have improved so much.
In Pakistan, only one in four - 25% - took the view that suicide bombings could be justified, a sharp drop from 41% last year. In Lebanon, which has been the victim of several recent bombing attacks, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified compared to 73% in 2002.
The one notable exception to the trend was Jordan, where a majority - 57% - said suicide bombings and violence were justifiable in defence of Islam.
Muslims in the surveyed countries were divided on suicide bombings in Iraq. Nearly half in Lebanon and Jordan, and 56% in Morocco, said suicide bombings against westerners in Iraq were justifiable, but substantial majorities in Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia took the opposite view.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1529077,00.html
Wow, its down to half! I can remember polls that indicated close to 75%. I am thinking half is still a bit larger than miniscule. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 110 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/19/2006 8:50:20 PM | You really are getting good at doing the "conservative twist".
Let's see, now what are the operative words here?
"in defence"
And how many Americans see the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilian deaths as justifiable
"in defence"
of America? (I know of at least one)
There were differing opinions about the causes of radicalism, with sizeable minorities pointing to poverty, joblessness and a lack of education, while in Jordan and Lebanon more people blamed US policies as the most important factor.
Notice that only a minority pick things like poverty, joblessness, etc. as the root cause?
Wow, its down to half! I can remember polls that indicated close to 75%.
Notice that the countries where the number is half consider US POLICIES to be the root cause?
That sounds an awful lot like
"in defence"
to me.
It seems the answer to solving THAT problem would be to CHANGE THE POLICIES. Pretty simple, huh?
Oh, and what were the other operative words?
"in Iraq"
Oh, let's see, invaded by a hostile country, occupied, having foreign values and beliefs forced on you, oh, and, THE ECONOMIC RAPE of your country by the occupying power.
Sounds an awful lot like
"in defence"
to me.
How many Americans so you think would support someone willing to die in a suicide attack
"in defence"
of America from an occupying power?
Now to the real question which you so skillfully side-stepped (actually ignored is probably more correct).
...the number of Muslim leaders preaching jihad world-wide is a very miniscule minority,...
And in response, you cite a poll about attitudes of the general public regarding
"in defence" and "in Iraq"
Show me a poll of the leaders preaching jihad and I might just grant you some credibility rather than complimenting your ability to dance the "conservative twist". | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/19/2006 10:07:16 PM |
Show me a poll of the leaders preaching jihad and I might just grant you some credibility rather than complimenting your ability to dance the "conservative twist".
Wow, someone who recognizes the use of a Push Poll. I am impressed. I hope you dissect other polls as judiciously. Most Jihadist Mullahs aren't answering any polls, they are sitting in their Madrassas and teaching children how to kill. Can you find a poll that supports your "miniscule minority," or do we just accept your opinion blindly?
With the definition of "Defense" being so broad, I hardly noticed the significance of the word:
A Palestinian suicide bomber has killed nine people along with himself and injured about 50 more in Tel Aviv.
The bombing, which came during the festival of Passover, was the first suicide attack in Israel since January.
The militant group Islamic Jihad said it was behind the restaurant blast, but Israel said it held the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority responsible.
Hamas, which has been keeping a truce with Israel, described the attack as an act of self-defence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4915868.stm
Commiting suicide in "self-defense" is what some would call an oxymoron. If people say thing like this in public, who would trust the use of "defense" in a poll? And we laugh at what Bush says. I guess your leaders really got their Shit together. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 112 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/20/2006 2:47:15 AM | Most Jihadist Mullahs aren't answering any polls, they are sitting in their Madrassas and teaching children how to kill. Can you find a poll that supports your "miniscule minority," or do we just accept your opinion blindly?
I've been doing a little research on this for you (teaching is a wonderful job, LOTS of paid vacation time to do stuff like this).
You would be right in that no-one has specifically polled Islam's leaders on this subject (not that I didn't already know this, I just thought I would confirm your assumption. Nice of me, huh?)
Since there aren't any polls I did the next best (actually, better) thing. I did a literature search of Islam's top, most influential religious leaders (some examples: Grand Mufti Shaikh Ali Gomaa, Grand Mufti Shaikh Abdul-Azeez bin Abdullaa bin Muhammad Aal ash-Shaikh, Grand Mufti Shaikh Ahmed bin Mohammed al-Khalili, Grand Mufti Shaikh Rafi Usmani, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani, Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, and about 40 others at this point.).
I have yet to find one that is calling on Muslims to commit acts of wanton terror on civilians. So far they have all spoken against that, for instance, condemning the 9/11 attacks. Here are some illustrative quotes for you:
"Islam is absolutely clear on this issue. Two wrongs do not make a right," Mufti Usmani said.
"If they feel that the US or the UK are killing innocent civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan, it does not give them the right to kill innocent citizens in London or New York," he said.
"When a Muslim visits a Western country or if he is living there, then he is under a kind of a contractual obligation to abide by the law of that land," explains Mufti Usmani.
"Islam is so strict about honouring commitments that a commitment cannot be revoked unilaterally even in times of battle."
"The situation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine is radicalising young people," says Mufti Rafi Usmani, one of Pakistan's highest-ranking clerics.
"And an angry young man is in no-one's control," he said.
That last one is kind of obvious isn't it, sort of a "no brainer". Makes you wonder why some of the "all muslims are murdering terrorists"/"Islam is a religion of hate" types in the west haven't clued in yet.
Most of them have spoken against military aggression by the Israelis and US (in Iraq, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon), many condemning it as imperialism, several calling for people to resist the MILITARIES and GOV'T AUTHORITY of those gov'ts in occupied lands like Iraq, the West Bank, Gaza (to me this is certainly understandable, when you are occupied, you're occupied. Most Americans would resist if a similar situation existed in US territory)
I did a little looking into the madrasah thing too. It seems that madrasahs aren't just a middle eastern thing. They're all over the world, US, Canada, UK, France, Germany, South Africa, etc. It seems they are pretty much the equivalent of a western parochial school. I'm not seeing huge numbers of indoctrinated terrorists coming out of madrasahs in the countries I listed. Have you seen much of that in your part of the world?
Now I suppose the middle east MIGHT be a different situation.
Pakistan (aren't they one of the US's allies?), I believe given the research I have done, has the largest, oh, committment I guess, to education in madrasahs. Best figures place the number of madrasahs in Pakistan (aren't they one of the US'S allies?) at ~10,000. Even with such a high number only about 0.3% of Pakistani (aren't they one of the US's allies?) children attend madrasahs. Yes, that's "zero point three" or 3/10ths of one percent.
Still, Pakistan (aren't they one of the US's allies?) has a LOT of people so that works out to about 150,000 kids.
According to most estimates the Pakistani (aren't they one of the US'S allies?) madrasahs are the WORST for producing those children who are taught to be the indoctrinated terrorists that are taught to kill that you are so concerned about.
Interesting isn't it that the US supports (financially and militarily) and is allied with the country generally identified as the WORST for producing children who are taught to be the indoctrinated terrorists that are taught to kill that you are so concerned about.
Now let's look at some other numbers.
For the purposes of this discussion I am going to restrict myself to those terrorist organizations which actually represent a threat to the US. By that I mean those who have dedicated themselves to "wiping out the western infidels", especially the US.
I believe this is an appropriate course because there are literaly dozens upon dozens that have little interest in the US, represent no threat to the US or have no connection to Islamist radicals (more correctly Islamic Jihadists, other Islamist movements have little use or tolerance for terrorism). This would include organizations like Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, etc whose only concern is Israel/Palestine and who have no interest in attacking the US (also they're not Islamic Jihadists, their agenda is not based on radical Islamist principles like al Qaeda. They would fall into the same category as groups like ETA, the IRA, Tamil Tigers, etc.).
By the US's own estimates al Qaeda, the largest radical Islamist terrorist organization to date, has an active strength of ~20,000. If we were to assume that they are all Pakistani (by no means a valid assumption) then that means ~13% of the graduates of madrasahs in Pakistan grow up to be terrorists. It is reasonable to assume that the majority are products of the same few madrasahs (if they are not then the indoctrinators must not be very good if they can only reach 13% of a more or less captive audience). This does not translate into a very large number of ulema to teach these madrasahs.
Even if we were to include other (and there aren't many) Islamic Jihadist groups we would be lucky to hit 40,000 active members (and that is a kind estimate). Of course doing this means we also have to include the 10's of thousands of madrasahs worldwide. As I am sure you can see, the number of madrasahs producing terrorists has now significantly plummeted as a percentage of the total as have the number of ulemas teaching them.
When you combine this with the international estimates for Muslims of between 1.2 billion (Islamic estimate) to 1.48 billion (US estimate) the percentage of radical Islamic Jihadists drops to a ridiculously unrepresentative 0.003% of the Muslim population. Yes that is zero point zero zero three of 3/1000th of a percent. It is not at all unreasonable to infer that the percentage of ulema who preach Islamic Jihadist ideology is consistent with this same number or that the total number of madrasahs where it is taught is also consistent with this.
Heck, even if we were to assume that every one of the estimated 10 million Palestinians were Islamic Jihadists that would still only take us to 0.83% (less actually because only 97% of Palestinians are Muslim). Again even if we make such a ridiculous assumption it is not at all unreasonable to infer that the percentage of ulema who preach Islamic Jihadist ideology is consistent with this same number or that the total number of madrasahs where it is taught is also consistent with this.
This seems pretty "miniscule", even insignificant, to me. In fact the only truly astonishing thing I can find in this is that the "all muslims are murdering terrorists"/"Islam is a religion of hate" types are totally out to lunch.
Oh, and also the fact that the US supports (financially and militarily) and is allied with the very country that seems to produce the greatest number of the Islamic Jihadists that everyone is so concerned about (would it be ungracious of me to also point out that the US is allied with the single largest funding source for the Islamic Jihadists, Saudi Arabia?)
So, while technically, you are right, you pretty much are left with my opinion since no-one has ever done a complete analysis of the numbers involved. If you can find some hard numbers I have missed or can find some significant logical fault in my analysis of the numbers and information that is out there feel free to provide the corrections.
All in all, I would have to say that the negative perceptions of Islam that seems to be so prevalent in the US is more likely due to gov't propaganda and blind, factless prejudice. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 113 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/20/2006 11:59:52 PM | Just a quick edit for my previous post:
So, while technically, you are right, you pretty much are left with my opinion since no-one has ever done a complete analysis of the numbers involved.
The word while shouldn't be in that sentence it should read:
So, technically, you are right, you pretty much are left with my opinion since no-one has ever done a complete analysis of the numbers involved. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/21/2006 11:04:55 AM | Islam isnt a religion anymore. Its a political device. Here are the 5 pillars of modern Islam;
a. Everyone else causes your problems. You cant change anything. Jews and Americans cause all your troubles. Go kill Jews for God hates jews.......ali ackbar!
b. Women and gays and transexuals are lower forms of life. Tell women what to do, what to wear and how to act. Kill all gays (4000 executions in Iran over the past 4 years). Kill all transexuals. Kill anyone who is different. And dont kill them quickly, make them suffer. Put women in pits and stone them. Put gays on top of buildings and throw them off.
c. Tell everyone how bad you have it. Show hours of footage of women weeping and gnashing their teeth. Insert rocket launchers in civilian populations and then cry foul when the army hurts your citizens and human shields. Tell the whole world how much you are suffering. Ali Ackbar!!!!!
d. Cling to the past and ignore science. Dont criticize yourself or your religion. Everything was peachy keen back in 600 AD, no need to rock the boot. Reject modernity. Just do things the way they did in 600 AD and things will be fine.
e. Kill stuff. God wants Muslims to kill people. God, being all knowing and all powerful, is far to busy to do it himself. On the second day of creation, God invented the suicide bomber. And he saw the bomber kill children. And he was pleased. To be a good Muslim, kill as many people as you can, starting with the ones who disagree with you.
ALI ACKBAR!!!!
Behold the 5 pillars of Islam. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 115 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/21/2006 11:20:44 AM | I have to reiterate one of my points:
In fact the only truly astonishing thing I can find in this is that the "all muslims are murdering terrorists"/"Islam is a religion of hate" types are totally out to lunch.
Oh, and add to that the "blind, factless prejudice." part as well.
Islam isnt a religion anymore. Its a political device. Here are the 5 pillars of modern Islam;
a. Everyone else causes your problems...
...To be a good Muslim, kill as many people as you can, starting with the ones who disagree with you.
ALI ACKBAR!!!!
Thank you for making my point.
And by the way, it's "Allah" not "Ali"
"Ali" is a name. It means "high". Maybe that's the problem, the actual reason you couldn't get it quite right. A Freudian slip maybe?
Again, thanks for making my point. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/21/2006 1:38:41 PM | Islam has the potential to do good. But its been hijacked so long ago that its no longer a faith, its a political statement.
Why hasnt Islam been able to contain its radicals? Why is there no uproar about extremism? Why cant Islam be self critical? Why is every second vicious act in the world today commited by Islam?
a. Somalia is now looking at invading Ethiopia...more Islam at work for you
b. Hezbollah and Hamas are vowing to send Israel into the sea, Iran is run on the basis of an Islamic fundamentalist vision of the world which vows to destory Israel
c. Islam has established itself in the Philipines, Indonesia and many other countries where terrorism is sponsored.
d. Shiites and Sunnis are killing each other like crazy in Iraq, its worse then when Saddam was in power. Now its out and out tribal warfare.
e. Islamic extremism lead to 9/11.
Your problem is the failure to keep up with modernity. Islam has allowed its image to falter in the world. When we think of Islam now, we think of bombs, bloodshed, religious intolerance, we dont think of God. I wish we did.
4000 gays have been killed in Iran over the past 4 years. The method of execution under the Taliban in Afghanistan for gays was either being thrown off a tall building or crushed under a falling building.
Women are still stoned to death in pits in Pakistan. Something as simple as adopting Western style dress codes result in mutliple stabbings. Honor killings go on daily.
You have a failure of PR. Why dont you get into the presses and announce the GOOD that Islam does?
I am just being honest with you. 5 years ago I had no feelings about Islam, positive or negative. Now when I hear the word "islam" i think of body parts. And thats just lame.
Please, I urge all Muslims to buy a copy of "The Trouble with Islam" by Irshid Manji. She is a Muslim who is giving Islam one last chance to redeem itself.
Instead of attacking all those who criticize your faith, please read this book to understand how to bring about a reform in Islam. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 117 | |
| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 7/21/2006 2:12:50 PM |
Instead of attacking all those who criticize your faith, please read this book to understand how to bring about a reform in Islam.
I assume this was directed toward the generic "you". In the event that it wasn't I will point out that I am not Muslim.
Your problem is the failure to keep up with modernity. Islam has allowed its image to falter in the world. When we think of Islam now, we think of bombs, bloodshed, religious intolerance, we dont think of God. I wish we did.
Why is there no uproar about extremism? Why cant Islam be self critical?
In reference to personal experience, almost half of my students are Muslim. I never see or hear anything but condemnation for this sort of thing from them or their parents and community leaders (from whom they obviously acquire this attitude).
I have spent a lot of time reading the views and vision of Islam's top leaders and philosophers in order to better understand my students (the majority were born in predominantly Muslim countries as were their parents). These leaders consistently condemn terrorism and wanton bloodshed/destruction as being fundamentaly un-Islamic. They are also extremely self-critical, constantly challenging themselves and Muslims in general to better themselves, to become better people, to grow and develop.
Why hasnt Islam been able to contain its radicals?
To start, I will reiterate a previous quote here from Mufti Rafi Usmani, the Grand Mufti of Pakistan (Grand Mufti is roughly an ad-mix of Pope and Arch-Bishop in terms of influence on theology and religious practice).
"The situation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine is radicalising young people," says Mufti Rafi Usmani, one of Pakistan's highest-ranking clerics.
"And an angry young man is in no-one's control," he said.
All religions have their radicals, some of whom are just as radical and violent as Muslim radicals. We do not, generally, condemn Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism, etc as an entire religion because of the actions of its' radical minorities. Why would we do so with Islam?
You have a failure of PR. Why dont you get into the presses and announce the GOOD that Islam does?
Islamic leaders do attempt to do this, regularly. The problem they face is the press of the west. They have little influence on western press and, let's face it, for western press a story about Islamic leaders calling for peace, reconcilliation or an end to terrorism just doesn't sell papers/draw viewers the way a story about bloodshed and violence does.
The propoganda of the west against the Muslim minority is, for the most part, a more powerful influence than the truth about the Muslim majority. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 5/31/2009 6:54:11 AM |
Islamic leaders do attempt to do this, regularly. The problem they face is the press of the west. They have little influence on western press and, let's face it, for western press a story about Islamic leaders calling for peace, reconcilliation or an end to terrorism just doesn't sell papers/draw viewers the way a story about bloodshed and violence does.
The propoganda of the west against the Muslim minority is, for the most part, a more powerful influence than the truth about the Muslim majority. The Almighty Buck rules the West. More bucks require more newspapers sold. More newspapers sold requires more sensationalist and controversial things going on, more drama. More drama requires more things like intolerance and wars. More intolerance and wars requires an "us-versus-them" mentality, and a general attitude that everyone who doesn't think like us is evil, and a threat to our very existence.
Wars make a lot more money. More money, in our society, is ALWAYS good. Ergo, for our society, wars are always good. It's a simple formula. A shame that it goes against our consciences. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 6/5/2009 12:06:19 PM |
Negative perceptions of Islam increasing?
Well, that's our obviously liberal media for you... [sarcasm] Please tell me this is not an attempt at claiming the media isn't bias and more liberal than Whoppi G.. I dont think I could withstand the heart crushing mockery. | |
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| Negative perceptions of Islam increasing
Posted: 6/9/2009 9:03:59 AM | Definitely not claiming that the media isn't biased. And it's definitey not more liberal than W. Goldberg. Everything has a bias; it's simply a matter of degrees and types of bias. To the contrary, I was claiming that the media has an anti-Islamic bias. That sort of bias makes more money. Please read the nearby posts of rks58 (aka Mungojoe) and Scorpiomover. They seem to "get it."
The bias does not simply boil down to partisanship. The media has a pro-corporate bias, and corporations are not all that liberal, really. If exposing a Republican's flaws (example: Palin) gets more viewers, they will do that. If exposing a Democrat's flaws (example: Blagojevich) gets more viewers, they will do that. If emphasizing the violence of Muslims gets more viewers (which it does), they will do that. To complicate things, it is important to note that Democrat is not synonomous with liberal nor is Republican synonomous with conservative. Even if the media does fawn over a certain candidate (example: McCain in 2000, Obama in 2008), it does not constitute a consistent ideological slant. They take the slant that will get viewers and protect their parent company's (GE, Viacom, Westinghouse) bottom line. Very often that slant has no ideology whatsoever, such as kidnappings, celebrity worship, and other tabloid fodder. To complicate matters again, corporations often support political candidates from both sides of the aisle-- it's called hedging your bets.
But if you simply must gauge the media by a woman on "The View," I would say that it resembles Barbara Walters the most. | |
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