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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:17:14 PM | Man I wish I did. But I got married so young and was married so long I doubt it would have mattered. Only in the respect that I earned 99% of all the money. Oh well. Life is short.
Everyone should have a pre-nup is the education. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:18:01 PM | Prenups are good to have if you are coming with vastly different amounts of assets and or debts. For example, if one person is a millionaire and the other person has $30,000 in savings and is paying off their student loans, then yes, a prenup is appropriate. I will not marry anybody without a prenup due to inheritances. With that said, I believe in having a date when the prenup ceases to exist. For example, you can put a clause in the prenup that specifies that after 20 years of marriage, the prenup is null and void.
In 20 years, you're probably not thinking about it too much. If you end up getting divorced in two years, at least you had that insurance policy. Life happens and people change. Smart people prepare themselves for life. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:25:42 PM | | A pre-nup is nothing but an addendum to a marriage contract which requires a license. If living happily ever after was purely faith based, you wouldn't need a marriage license. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:27:59 PM |
Did you know that a woman can have unprotected sex with a man-NOT-her-husband, and the STATE will make the HUSBAND support any child spermed by that strange man. Hmmmmmm.. where is the equity in THAT?? Seems to be a little one-sided, dont ya think?
Not only that but if your wife cheats on you and leaves you for the other man you could still be required to pay her alimony.
I see nothing wrong with requiring a pre-nup. To me it shows that the person has actually thought things out instead of just jumping into a marriage blindly. The person has obviously thought of the worst case scenario and still wants to marry you. With the divorce rates so high I think people should look at reality instead of living in a fantasy world of "we'll always be together!" That would be great and hopefully both parties make it work, but sometimes things just happen that break people apart.
When it comes down to it you can know someone for years and years and never see their ugly side. Divorces tend to bring out the worst in people. Both parties can become quite vindictive. You can tell yourself you know the person's values, morals etc. but once you get on someone's bad side everything changes. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:51:15 PM | Should I preface my comments? I shall--
I have never been married, so I have never been divorced. So I've never been screwed over in a divorce, or in a marriage, for that matter. So on to the show...
=======================
The problem is you're using a hackneyed argument that doesn't hold water... The new problem is you failed to back up the statement that it's hackneyed or that it doesn't hold water (why do you say these things as if they are FACTS, then never back them up with FACTS, but with only more opinions?).
Your feelings of indignation because of improper correlation is nothing in comparison to the feelings and devastating long term ramifications one can suffer in the event of getting financially raped in a divorce.
My correlation is not in the least "improper", it makes more sense than yours in the context of MARRIAGE. And that's POSSIBLE long term ramifications--POSSIBLE. Not even PROBABLE, in my opinion. But if you prefer, let's go with your "love is a business" thing.
Even in business there are intangibles. A restaurant will comp a bad meal, for instance. A bank will give $100 gift card for someone opening a $50 checking account. These are all certainly "bad business" if you look JUST at the money part. But we aren't REALLY dealing with MONEY when we have a business. We are dealing with PEOPLE -- who have money. That patron who had a bad meal will likely come BACK despite that fact, and end up spending more money. The $50 checking account could make quite a bit of money for the bank over time if the person keeps her money in that account.
The intangible in love, the part you would never be able to get back, is the erosion of trust in the marriage (which is between PEOPLE, not corporations) when you have a prenup. When you bank on my "raping" you in a divorce (by insisting upon that prenup), you are saying, "I love you, I just don't trust you." Which, to my ear, sounds a little like, "I don't actually love you, I just need a partner for our business."
You are, in effect, saying that it's worth it to you to put that first chink in the armor of marriage. You are being safe and covering yourself from what might happen.
I am saying it's not worth it. I'm going to take that risk, and trust that "right" will out.
Now, maybe the crux of the difference of opinion is this: I don't think marriage is a business contract. It's a social contract, one where I say to the world, "This is the man I love, I want everyone to know it and acknowledge it."
To say I would be bad at business is a compliment to me. Thank you.
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And Margo--you proved MY point. The people who want a prenup are admitting they have crap judgement. Or either you're trying to say that some people who have crap judgement are so stupid they'll never have a prenup so will always lose money in a divorce? | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 4:03:46 PM |
I love you, I just don't trust you.
No, CassaGo, a prenup sais, "I currently love you. I hope I will continue to love you in the future. However, if at any point in the future we stop loving each other, there is a very high probability that we will both be so distraught, emotional and angry, that we MIGHT shaft each other! " | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 4:18:28 PM | I think I'd have a problem with it. Can't really explain why exactly...it just doesn't sit right with me. It puts the emphasis where I don't think it belongs and sets the wrong tone.
jmo. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 4:28:54 PM |
I think I'd have a problem with it. Can't really explain why exactly...it just doesn't sit right with me. It puts the emphasis where I don't think it belongs and sets the wrong tone.
I so agree. My reply would be very simple and to the point if I was ever asked!
If money means that much to you, go feck yourself! I don't need you in my life! | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 4:52:15 PM |
The new problem is you failed to back up the statement that it's hackneyed or that it doesn't hold water (why do you say these things as if they are FACTS, then never back them up with FACTS, but with only more opinions?).
Incorrect.
I went line by line, and rebutted your entire premise very objectively.
My correlation is not in the least "improper", it makes more sense than yours in the context of MARRIAGE.
A pre nup is not about the "love" or the marriage. It's a failsafe in the event of a divorce. It is not in effect during the marriage.
Even in business there are intangibles. A restaurant will comp a bad meal, for instance.
Known as a preventative stopgap. To prevent an unhappy customer from making a scene in a room full of other patrons.
Logical.
A bank will give $100 gift card for someone opening a $50 checking account.
That's a loss leader.
These are all certainly "bad business" if you look JUST at the money part.
Wrong.
Both are good business.
You simply can't see it, or understand how it works. It's not rocket science.
But we aren't REALLY dealing with MONEY when we have a business.
It's always about the money in business.
The intangible in love, the part you would never be able to get back, is the erosion of trust in the marriage (which is between PEOPLE, not corporations) when you have a prenup.
You're obfuscating.
A pre nup is not about the time "during" the marriage.
It's a pre negotiation about how the individual assets are protected during a divorce in the event there is bitterness (which is all too common) during an emotional period.
That a pre nup sounds dissonant to your ears is more of a concern to you than alleviating the concerns of how draconian the default laws are regarding division of assets during a divorce to the man you hope to enter into a legally binding contract.
If you have a problem with pre nups, lobby to have the divorce laws changed so that pre nups are no longer needed as a failsafe.
You are, in effect, saying that it's worth it to you to put that first chink in the armor of marriage.
It's not a "chink" in the armor of marriage anymore that your insistance that you do not want to be bound by any legalities that don't give you the upper hand.
Tell you what. If you love your SO....do some research into the divorce laws, print it off, and let him read the fine print of what he's putting his head in the noose for by signing the piece of paper that YOU want HIM to sign to illustrate his commitment to you.
You are being safe and covering yourself from what might happen.
Better safe than sorry.
I am saying it's not worth it. I'm going to take that risk, and trust that "right" will out.
That's subjective, not objective.
Now, maybe the crux of the difference of opinion is this: I don't think marriage is a business contract.
The crux of that matter is you choose to ignore and eschew reality.
Marriage is bound by laws, and so is divorce. Both are a legal matter. There are contracts in legal matters.
It is "business".
It's a social contract, one where I say to the world, "This is the man I love, I want everyone to know it and acknowledge it."
Fine. Get a T shirt made up.
Why get married and make it "business" in the first place if "business" negotiations take the romance out of it for you?
A pre nup is a promise in writing that you'll never hurt him, no matter what the outcome.
I'd say that's pretty warm and fuzzy, don't you? | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:02:28 PM | why not? are you marrying someone for their assets? what if kids are involved? it depends on what you each have, the inequties, et al. if a person got married and then dropped dead in six months, and if they had considerable assets and children, why not leave an equitable portion to them as well as the new "love". if anything, the older person should already be established. don't they love their children too?
not everyone can afford to give what they have to their kids when they need it, but when they "go" , why not have them in one's consideration as well? are you expecting some sort of "free ride"?
we often think we will be around for our kids. but, what if something happened unexpectedly? who is being materialistic here? what kind of love is streaming through someone's head if s/he gets p-ssed off because their partner may have others in his/her life that are as important. plus, they have known these "others" way longer than the new spouse!
economics are economics. love is love. you can build in any realistic concerns into an agreement. it doesn't have to be all or nothing. such as over time, the marital interest in the property might grow if something "happened". also by then, one's kids would presumeably be more established. if you both don't have your own pot to p_ss in, then fine. but if one has so much "MORE" that should not be your reason for marrying him or her. i would assume that s/he would make decent provisions for you as well. just not give you "everything". 
ps laws in the usa vary by state. this canadian law making a man responsible for his wife's other children is strange. i believe, here in some states, if he has raised them for most of their lives it is built into what was considered to be their life together to date. thus, the continuity of the pre-established relationship. times, however, are changing--as is society.
old rules need to be adapted to what is the current norm and expectation. i wonder if the woman makes more money in canada, does this mean that she is also responsible for the man's children? i have heard this on and off pof, and am curious. it would appear some of these laws prevent people from marrying if they had any previous family--let alone sign any prenup. here, despite state law, the ineptitudes of some of the judges will screw with any poor sap's head--sometimes the man gets screwed in CA, but also sometimes the woman. i know one woman who could not move out of county and be within the same travel distance as within county. she could afford to live "better" in the second county. the dad "suddenly" wanted to care for the child. before, he never wanted to see the child. why? because it would cost him money? the implications for both of them, should either remarry, would be visited upon the new spouse? it gets complicated. often we need such agreements to address unfair laws and unfair judges as well. two wrongs don't make one right. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:05:37 PM | LOL everyone's opinion is subjective. What a silly statement to make, as if it's a damning one.
The crux of that matter is you choose to ignore and eschew reality.
No, I'm actually going by what I see (ie, reality)--*you're* the one going by "maybes." Maybe she'll rape me. Maybe she won't . Maybe if she signs this it will hold up in court.
Look, I get it. You're scared and you've been screwed, and you think you can take all the risk out of marrriage--excuse me--divorce, by requiring a notarized signature saying "I will not rape you".
In the end, since we don't love each other:
I'm not so much saying that it's wrong for YOU to want a prenup as I'm saying it's wrong for ME to have one. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:09:31 PM |
So let me get this straight, a wife cheats on her husband falls pregnant to another man's child, husband and wife get divorced, husband is responsible for paying child support to this child???
Of course..... that's the first time you've heard that?
(Lifting up rock....,"Hello? Angel? Hello?".... )
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:12:01 PM |
The people who want a prenup are admitting they have crap judgement.
Excellent judgement, crappy judgement doesn't matter.
I found out the hard way that you never really know a person until you get divorced.....
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:15:58 PM |
why not? are you marrying someone for their assets? what if kids are involved? it depends on what you each have, the inequties, et al. if a person got married and then dropped dead in six months, and if they had considerable assets and children, why not leave an equitable portion to them as well as the new "love". if anything, the older person should already be established. don't they love their children too?
This is precisely why I would have a prenup if I ever married. My BF and I both have assets and family heirlooms that we would like to pass on to our respective children. Our wills specify these things so why would we not ensure that these same wishes could be effected if our relationship ended as a result of divorce rather than death? | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:26:44 PM |
No, I'm actually going by what I see (ie, reality)
If you were going by reality, then you'd see that divorces happen every day. 50% of marriages end in divorce.
That is not all about bad judgment. People can be perfect for each other at the time, but life happens. People grow and change. And the chances that they grow towards each other are pretty slim.
And it's a whole lot easier to go from love to hate, than from love to apathy. Love and hate are both emotions. Most people get married because they love each other. They don't think they'll divorce. They think they know the other.
You're 48 - you're single. So, either you've never had a relationship or whatever relationship(s) you've had is/are over. Why? Did you have bad judgment? If you had great judgment (according to you) you'd still be together, wouldn't you?
I think a prenup is a great way to show your partner that they don't ever have to worry about any money issues, if there's a split. That will take that issue off the table and it will increase trust in each other, because both see that the marriage is for love.
Being presented with a prenup is your chance to prove that you're trust worthy. Why wouldn't you want to prove that? | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:29:31 PM |
If you end up getting divorced in two years, at least you had that insurance policy. Life happens and people change. Smart people prepare themselves for life.
Yea see now THERE is someone who knows shit from the shovel. 
Insurance...that's all a prenup is at it's base. You wouldn't own a car without insurance...wouldn't own a home without one...wouldn't jump out of a plane without a parachute...all about protection and insurance against the "probability". A prenup is just protecting you against the possibility that something *may* go bad.
No one buys insurance hoping or thinking their house is gonna blow up or they're gonna get into a smash up in 3 days...they do it "just in case".
Those that balk at prenups are the ones that have intentions and they try to cleverly avoid the admittance by using words like "trust" and "integrity".
Like the poster said smart ones prepare themselves for eventualities and possibilities that we commonly refer to as life. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:31:11 PM |
a wife cheats on her husband falls pregnant to another man's child, husband and wife get divorced, husband is responsible for paying child support to this child???
There are different outcomes in different cases. If the husband knew or suspected that the child wasn't his, but accepted responsibility, then yes he almost certainly will be required to pay child support. Similarly, if a couple begins living together or gets married and there are step-children involved, either parent can be made to pay child support for the step-children, should a break-up occur. This is because they accept the role of parent, and while many parents don't take this too seriously, the courts do - even if it's only to ensure that someone besides the state pays for the raising of children.
Even if he had no idea, and some years into the father-child relationship, the couple splits up he can still be required to pay child support because the welfare of the child is the court's concern and, just like a bio-child, the **stard child shouldn't have to suffer financially because the parents aren't together. Presumably if the bio-father can be located, he'd have a higher obligation to pay, but I don't know how much effort anyone puts into finding bio-dad in these situations.
When you look at it strictly from the male's POV, being required to pay for another mans' child is completely unfair. When you look at it strictly from the child's point of view, they are not the ones who created the situation, so why should they be made to pay extra penalty for it? In my opinion, putting the kid first, even though it's unfair to the adults, seems the right course of action. The child isn't responsible for the ill-behavior of it's parents, and I can just imagine the joy of a child who not only has to contend with their parent's split, but also the man whom they've considered as father for X number of years abruptly tossing them aside as undesirable. But few people are altruistic enough to put a child's heart before their wallet, so we have men denying kids they've raised for years, and women using access to 'punish' fathers. Kids lose all the way around.
Definitely a seriously flawed system.
OT: Yes, I'd sign a pre-nup. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:39:45 PM |
LOL everyone's opinion is subjective. What a silly statement to make, as if it's a damning one.
What's silly is that you think my intent was to be damning.
No, I'm actually going by what I see (ie, reality)--*
Not if you read my post, properly.
)--*you're* the one going by "maybes." Maybe she'll rape me. Maybe she won't . Maybe if she signs this it will hold up in court.
No.
A pre nup takes all the "maybe's" and turns them into "known's".
Look, I get it. You're scared and you've been screwed
I bet that works on the guys you date. Spare me your projections and attempts to vitiate.
I've never been burned. And that's something that I'm proud of, and actually improves my worth on the dating market.
And I don't worry because I don't have my head up my azz and put myself in financially vulnerable positions. The two most important things I've learned in business are:
1- Get a good accountant.
2- Get the best lawyers you can afford.
I'm not so much saying that it's wrong for YOU to want a prenup as I'm saying it's wrong for ME to have one.
Then you're a volunteer, if you get taken to the cleaners in a divorce, not a victim.
And it matters none to me what you say today, because if you won the Powerball lottery tomorrow, and were about to marry, you'd probably be singing a different tune. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:40:26 PM |
...even though it's unfair to the adults...
(Whispering) ..... it's only unfair to ONE adult... the GUY...
Definitely a seriously flawed system.
.... yeah, paternity fraud is the only type of fraud that is perfectly legal....
ON TOPIC:
As several people have said, prenups are the same as insurance.
Marriage as an 'institution' has fvck all to do with love.
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:43:16 PM | Just pondering all of this from the Lawyer's point of view.
What if he sews something up for you that is to your satisfaction, you pay good dollars for this, and lo and behold when it comes down to enacting it in the heat of the split-up, it doesn't float. It sank like 500 lbs. of lead. The judge decrees it unfair and not of accordance to existing laws.
Can you sue your lawyer?
Then that brings up the same kind of fear that doctors live in. Malpractice suits. Heavy insurance premiums to cover possible suits.
When you think about it, what that lawyer has to put together, reading from every little piece of paper that you give him to make sure you can sleep at night, AND IT GETS TOSSED ON A TECHNICALITY!
Lawyers then are more careful to craft up pre-nupts that are as per existing laws. Laws that you can easily look up and into. Now you pay through the nose to have the feeling of being safe. Remember those huge malpractice insurance premiums? They are overhead and will most likely be calculated into the Fee.
Me? If I need to know anything, the resources are out there to tell you Yes or No and are pretty clear.
I do accounting and I have all of my paper trails in place with dates and figures.
Easy and doesn't cost me anything.
One thing about having one made up and shelling the dollars out for it, it can be re-used. Let's say the "love" in question cries FOUL! when he/she reads it. You break-up.
The next sweetie down the road can be subjected to it. Just change the name. You might have the opportunity to use it for quite a few sweeties. You never know.
Then you have your money's worth out of it.
I wouldn't really know what shape your heart is by then. Probably petrified like a rock.
But at least you are safe!!! | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 7:16:30 PM | I would offer to sign one if he had family money. Otherwise is it somewhat insulting but I would sign it anyway. There are still people who marry for money.
Ladies, just make sure that you get your fair share. Think of it as more of a ketubah than as a prenup. Negotiate for yourself and potential children. No one ever expects to get divorced but it happens. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 8:58:27 PM |
I don't have an option in all honesty. I have to protect my children before any man. I have a great deal of inheritance when my mother passes away and it is meant to see my children thru college since i'm already an adult. I can't risk jeopardizing their futures because I was impulsive. And i'm also set to inherit my family's 100+ yr old farm... that's something that MUST stay in MY family.
So yes, there WILL be a pre-nup or I will be not be marrying again.
Thank you daydreamin honey, that is exactly how a man who has assets to protect thinks. And as a man who has accumulated a certain level of wealth in his lifetime, I'd be happy to sign a pre-nup if I were engaged to someone like you.
We don't plan on falling our of love or divorcing, but having the protection for BOTH of you sure makes taking the plunge an easier decision doesn't it?
I've known too many men in their 40s and 50s who are starting over when they should be thinking about retirement. I know I don't want to wake up 50 years old and trying to start over with a 30 year mortgage or lose half of my retirement savings.  | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 9:11:16 PM | Nah, Cassa, I didn't make your point. The point is, no one knows whether their judgment sucked until they're examining it with the clarity of hindsight.
Funny, most people take it as one person imposing a set of conditions on the other. Some even suggest it is presented, or sprung on the other, fait accompli.
Nah, the pre nup or co-hab process involves sitting down... usually several sit downs as a matter of fact... and disclosing every detail of your financial situation to the other and discussing - in great detail - how you want to organize your financial relationship during the relationship and how you'd divide things if you split up. It is very revealing of attitudes to money and life. It becomes a mutual document... one that actually builds trust and openness.
The other thing people focus on is its role in dividing and protecting financials in the event of a divorce. That is true, but overlooks another significant benefit: if you split up you are emotionally distraught. Already having made the decisions on how to split things up saves you that additional emotional upheaval at a time when you're a mess. As far as I am concerned, it is a great gift you can give your future selves. | |
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