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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/15/2009 9:16:56 PM |
What so many people who are against prenupts fail to see is how brutal and vindictive we can all be when we are hurt, angry and feel betrayed. This isn't something you can possibly understand unless you have personally experienced divorce or witnessed someone close to you going through divorce.
During a seperation, honour, empathy, consideration, are, more often then not, completely thrown out the window and people chase the only thing they can get: things, money etc. Women are VERY guilty of this whether or not they choose to admit it.
Prenups are very necessary to protect each other from each other. This is also why laws exist, again to protect each other from each other.
Exactly. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:21:17 AM |
merrylass, did you miss the " which is rare " part?
Your second para makes the necessary point that you don't know if you're one of the rare ones until after the fact. Everybody thinks they are the rare ones when they start out.
The intangible in love, the part you would never be able to get back, is the erosion of trust in the marriage (which is between PEOPLE, not corporations) when you have a prenup. When you bank on my "raping" you in a divorce (by insisting upon that prenup), you are saying, "I love you, I just don't trust you
Wrongo. What you are saying is 'I trust you right now and you trust me but nothing says that one of us won't end up with a mental ailment, get in an accident and wind up addicted to painkillers, undergo a life trauma which changes me so that I turn against you, think we've fallen in love with someone else, etc etc etc'.
Point is that all the love in the world can't mitigate against what life can/will throw at you and what may happen to you because of it. Do you not understand that most people do start out in relationships fully planning to continue them long-term? Have you never spoken to someone who got divorced and found out that they started in the best of intentions but things went wrong? You're kidding yourself - no, sticking your head in the sand - if you think that you marry and live happily ever after and that life will not test and try either or both of you - sometimes to breaking point.
It's the sort of fairy tale we like to believe in when we're young, but maturity teaches that life is much more complicated and it is the unwise who refuse to acknowledge that.
The people who want a prenup are admitting they have crap judgement
No, they realize that everybody thinks they have great judgement. Until they find out they are wrong. As someone pointed out, you are 48 and single. If you haven't ever made an unwise choice in the full belief that you were doing the right thing, then you are the only person on the planet to have escaped that very human situation. Ever hear of Paul McCartney??
If money means that much to you, go feck yourself! I don't need you in my life!
Yeah. You'd be singing a different song if you ended up without your home or car or any assets, near retirement, and maybe even ill - and lacking sufficient cash to fend for yourself. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 3:50:17 AM | " you don't know if you're one of the rare ones until after the fact. Everybody thinks they are the rare ones when they start out."
What MERRYLASS said might be true, if you're both 20 years old and never been married before. But if you're older and one or both people have at least one failed marriage, you need to be realistic. As the old saying goes "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me." | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 6:23:55 AM | | Yes, definitely. With my last girlfriend, we never got married, although we were considering it, and when things went badly it cost me a lot. If we'd been married, she could have gotten half my retirement savings as well. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 6:48:21 AM | I totally disagree with the OP, I would want a prenupt before I ever took those vows again, I think it protects both me and the other party from the hassle of "what Ifs" or the bitter divorce battles you see. I say sign an iron clad pre nupt, and rest easy. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 7:10:30 AM | Well I'm coming late into this discussion... but here's what I have to say:
1. The more assets either of you have when going into a relationship, the more a prenup matters. It's good just for the purpose of reducing headaches on BOTH sides if things don't work out.
2. Historically, the 'Prenup' was brought in to protect *women* as well as men. For example, back in 1744, Elizabeth Oglethorpe required General James Edward Oglethorpe to sign a prenuptial agreement protecting her property rights before they got married.
http://marriage.about.com/od/agreements/qt/prenuphistory.htm
3. Being able to discuss a prenup with a partner is a good acid test for a relationship. If it turns into a big drama by one side... FAIL... it's a good indicator that you should NOT marry or have this person move in with you.
4. I'm very pleased that I convinced my best friend to get a prenup before his girlfriend moves in with him. Basically he has quite a bit in terms of assets and investments. She doesn't have nearly as much as he does. And while this girl is a very nice person, it's hard to predict how things will be in 20 years. I for one didn't think I'd get split up... but I did.
And part of the life education I'm giving to both my son and daughter will include the legalities surrounding marriage and the importance of a prenup.
5. Legally speaking, depending on where you live, getting out of a common law marriage can be as costly as getting out of a full-out marriage. The only way around the issue is if you charge your partner rent... and even that's not a guarantee... especially if you have kids with them.
And that's my CDN$0.02. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 7:17:55 AM |
5. Legally speaking, depending on where you live, getting out of a common law marriage can be as costly as getting out of a full-out marriage. The only way around the issue is if you charge your partner rent... and even that's not a guarantee... especially if you have kids with them.
Yeah, I think that the longer you are married and live wih someone the less value a prenup will have...
... which is why if I was ever stupid enough to get married again, there would be a clause in it that states that we will never live together.....
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 7:36:19 AM | Wording of a pre-nupt and the law:
Let's say that you had a house (paid off) while you were single. Very nice house!
You met the lovely lady of your dreams. After dating for a good year, you feel that she is the One and you let her move in. On the condition that she knew that everything was yours. You had her sign a paper regarding that.
She has her own condominium that has a mortage on it. Equity-wise not much yet. She keeps the mortgage and title but let's her son move into there when she moves intoB/F's place.
The living together is working out after two years. She's putting as much into the pot as she can. Her hours were recently reduced because she has fibrmyalgia and the body hurts. He makes very good coin.
She's making noises that the house reflects his ex-wife's tastes in everything and she wants their own place. He loves his house, but says OK. He doesn't want a huge mortgage and requests that she put something in. She tells her son that she is selling the condo and sells it. Whatever was left, she put towards the the downpayment of the new house. He sells his house and puts the whole amount towards the downpayment on the new house.
They move to the new house and stay together for 5 more years. Then they split-up.
What do you think happened financially? | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 7:48:24 AM | When she runs away with the pool boy, she gets back her downpayment and half any equity that accrued.....
Smiple.
Edit to add:
... and the doilies. Men don't like doilies. She will want the other knick-knacks too...
.... and the fancy towels that no one is allowed to use and only come out when her mother visits....
.... it's likely she'll take all the Ikea stuff too, thank GaaaawwwD! That stuff is such crap.....
Edit again:
... though in an ideal world, she'd get back a percentage of the equity proportionate to the percentage of the downpayment she put in....
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 9:08:54 AM |
They move to the new house and stay together for 5 more years. Then they split-up.
What do you think happened financially?
Belle Lass, my thoughts are that unless the Prenup was updated with a Post-nup agreement that spelled out who owns what % of the house, the house would be split 50-50 between them if it was a judge deciding.
And the reason for that is that the house was purchased During (what the court would consider) the common law relationship.
Yeah, I think that the longer you are married and live with someone the less value a prenup will have...
Capitano... Yes and no.
A prenup agreement generally gets honoured by the court provided it is reasonable.
And if the prenup says child support will be limited to what's listed in the Child Support Guidelines, then even that will stand because no judge is gonna make a ruling that the child support guidelines are NOT reasonable.
The only time they'll overrule it is if the agreement says something like 'no spousal support' but then it was mutually decided that one of the two would stay home with the kids and also look after the house... and they did that for 10-20 years. Because it won't be viewed as Reasonable by the court to ask someone to give up a career but then NOT give them some support after the relationship ends until they get on their feet financially.
The other thing the court is big on are The Best Interests of the Child. If the agreement has a reasonable schedule where both parents get to see the kids, it'll probably stand. If it's really one-sided with no good reason, then it could be struck.
It can be quite murky. I mentioned in another thread related to this that the Australian System is much better as it has been recently reformed with automatic guidelines that cover a wide range of situations... and thus, hardly any need to go to court there for stuff like this anymore. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 9:30:34 AM | Capitano, you are right!
The man screamed bloody murder, but the judgement was the judgement. In 7 years she put in $8000.00 and came out with $175,000. Not bad investment.
Know your laws.
Zekestone,
I remember the words of my divorce lawyer who is now a judge.
"Pre-Nupts? Hah! 99% of them are not worth the toilet that they should be written on."
The law is the law. What do people think we are? Refereees for adults who try to beat the system? One day they will realize that life isn't fair. Deal with it."
Now if the smart man had sold his house first before co-habitation, documenting evidence, his money would be his. In his expensively crafted Pre-nupt. as per the law. Question is, why did he spend money on the Pre-Nupt if this is the law? Waste.
Just a minute, not done here! But, if he were to take some of that money and spend it on a boat while they were together, or a nice vehicle, or a motorhome, then that is considered acquired assets while together. As per law.
More coming up. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 10:29:51 AM |
Zekestone,
I remember the words of my divorce lawyer who is now a judge.
"Pre-Nupts? Hah! 99% of them are not worth the toilet that they should be written on."
Either this person doesn't know squat or he's a very self-serving person.
99% of prenups not worth anything? I know for a fact that isn't true... particularly prenups where both sides got the agreement looked over and notarized by separate lawyers.
Yeah "the law is the law"... and when you get two independent legal professionals signing off that the agreement is WITHIN the boundaries of the law, it's Very Likely it will hold up in court.
And the situation you pose doesn't mean the prenup was a waste. It just means the prenup was OUT OF DATE... because it applied to a property that wasn't in the picture anymore. Without the contract update, the new house becomes "acquired assets while together. As per the law."
The fact that the subsequent home was purchased together is why the 50-50 rule kicks in.
The only ways around it legally is if the prenup was updated with a post-nup agreement... OR... the house was 100% in his name and he charged her rent instead of vaguely asking her to chip some money in. By asking her to chip in, she became a part owner. Without any updated agreement, then the court defaults to 50-50.
Had they NOT moved and had he not asked her to kick in some money, she probably would not have gotten anything.
Believe me... I know the law surrounding this... at least in Ontario. And many of the principles are the same principles you have in Contract Law... something I've been familiar with for quite a while. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 10:37:10 AM | I am a pauper so sure why not...though I dont owe a penny. I would open with all the muffins, they could keep everything else.
I think these agreements are sound in theory but are made exceptionally complex by peoples motivations.
I concur I dont understand what you imply OP. I believe the usa has these odd fundamental driving forces of brain nullifying utopia i can pretend to understand (but really jamie dosnt)
What people love arnt always the same..I think is my point and surprises more than a few
(still cant edit yet so aplles for me speiling errors thus day)..so far :) | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 11:19:44 AM | I signed a prenuptial agreement when I got married. It was more for his family and my family than it was for us. Our attorney tore up the document after the birth of our first child.
At this stage of life I would not hesitate to sign a prenuptial agreement again. If I was to get married it would have nothing to do with their financial nest egg. Adults who marry with children, worry that if they were first to die their children may be cut off by the surviving spouse. They also worry that the material goods they accumulated might be taken from them if the marriage did not work out. I would not worry about signing a document because I would be marrying for love not money. I would be going in to it with a lifetime commitment at heart and the document would never see the light of day again. As for assets to be dispersed at death, that is what a will is for.
I would not be offended by the suggestion of such a document. Signing something freely just indicates that my intention of getting married was not financial secuirty, and that my motives were pure. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 11:27:00 AM | Contractual Law ~ I do know people are trying to go this route with Family Law.
I sat in on another session and heard a judge who said "I am authorized to uphold the law. If you want to change the laws to suit you, don't do it in my courtroom. Nobody here has that authority. Talk to the body of government that makes the laws and gets them either voted on to be amended or passed."
Just out of "idealism" here.
Let's say all of the Pre-Nupts are allowed. Can you imagine the back-log in court when all sorts of colourful pre-nupts end up going before a judge? Might as well build a new courthouse and staff it with lawyers and a few judges because each case will have to be reviewed seperately.
Existing laws on separation and divorce whether you are common-law or not?
All thrown out! They are not needed anymore.
All I can think is catastrophe! I mean, look at this thread! There would never be any common ground for a judge to rest a decision on. Then judgements would be appealed!
I would say. Know your law and work with it. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 11:55:29 AM | "Contractual Law ~ I do know people are trying to go this route with Family Law."
Got news for you... marriage has ALWAYS been about contractual law. Everyone goes through that route whether they realize it or not. Just because it's advertised as Family Law, doesn't change the fact that the principles are still rooted in Contract Law.
Belle Lass, prenups REDUCE litigation, not increase it. Someone is feeding you inaccurate information.
And whether a Judge said "I am authorized to uphold the law... " is quite irrelevant to what I'm talking about. If the agreement is within the law and is reasonable, it'll stand.
It's identical in concept to any other contract that has an illegal clause. A judge would strike part or all of the agreement the same way.
And each case will NOT have to be reviewed when there's a prenup. The only cases that come to court are cases where there is a dispute. When there's a prenup, it means that there are already many things pre-agreed on. With no prenup, nothing is agreed on ahead of time.
That's why NOT having a prenup INCREASES litigation.
There are things you can put in the prenup and things you can't. That's why you get a lawyer to look over a prenup.
You can't, for example, say "if we split up, there will be no child support". That will not fly as the law is very clear on that child support laws trump anything in a prenup agreement.
But pretty much everything else is fair game... as long as it's *reasonable* in the legal sense.
And Widowsdesire, what you said doesn't make sense. Lawyers don't just habitually rip up agreements on a whim or because someone had a kid. They don't have that right to do that without the consent of the parties involved.
Why *specifically* did your attorney rip up the agreement? The only reason for him to rip it up would be if there was something in it relating to child support that wasn't within the law (which could be fixed with an amended agreement) OR you and your partner ASKED him to rip it up. So which is it?
An update... Technically a 'prenup' isn't called a 'prenup' legally. They are called "Domestic Agreements". What most people call a 'prenup' is legally known as a cohabitation agreement when they aren't married or a marriage contract when they are married. Have a read... this lists what goes into such agreements and this is enshrined in law:
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-f3/latest/rso-1990-c-f3.html#BK54
To say what is known as a 'prenup' won't hold up under the law is to say that what's enshrined in the law won't hold up under the law... or in other words, it's a completely nonsensical blanket statement for you, a friend, a lawyer or anyone to make. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:10:30 PM | | In the example Belle gave it would also depend on whether the property was held as tenants in commons or joint tenants. His mistake was in not updatiing the agreement to reflect their new living arrangement. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 1:37:41 PM | Actually, Margo
The couple that I brought up in my first post in this thread tried that route or a similar route. It didn't fly.
Judgement was: It was a common-law co-habitation. It was deemed unfair to her and not to what the current laws regarding common-law marriage is about and all she had to say was that he got her to sign it by using big words and "logic" that she didn't understand.
Most people try to call it all sorts of different labels.
Just the same kind of thing when it comes to joint incomes/taxes of people in common-law marriages with children to claim.
My foster daughter found that out a few years back. When she and her B/F were together they had worked out this "tax" thing that had left her vulnerable. When she left him, he reported her to RevCan and they did an audit. She ended up owing a ton of money that included penalties and interest. I think they had tried that bit of "tenant/roommate/sharing" space kind of thing.
Vengence is a wonder to behold when love is gone.
Being in a common-law relationship trumps a heckuva lot of "ideas" you can try.
That person you "trusted" says woefully in front of the judge "We had sex on a regular basis and were living together as a couple" and it changes the name of the animal.
Zekestone. I am just going on what I have seen and heard via the person(s) involved.
And each case will NOT have to be reviewed when there's a prenup. The only cases that come to court are cases where there is a dispute. When there's a prenup, it means that there are already many things pre-agreed on. With no prenup, nothing is agreed on ahead of time.
You, of course, are assuming that she will never take it to court and challenge it? Nah!
She wouldn't.
The Supreme Court has the final say.
I know there is a lot of creativity going on out there. That is why I say the word "crafted" to describe some of these pre-nupts. It also helps to know that there are specific laws out there that trump other laws that could be used.
I will also say that most judges have seen and heard EVERYTHING. Don't ever assume that you are smarter than they are.
I will also say that never ever assume what "darling" agrees to now is what will stand up in court. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 2:15:10 PM |
Judgement was: It was a common-law co-habitation. It was deemed unfair to her and not to what the current laws regarding common-law marriage is about and all she had to say was that he got her to sign it by using big words and "logic" that she didn't understand.
And that is precisely why ILA (Independent Legal Advice) is absolutely critical for both parties.
I just realized you're in BC Belle. BC has some crazy stupid laws (IMO) for co-habitation. Unless it has been altered from a fairly recent Supreme Court decision, it is the only province in Canada that includes the matrimonial home in co-habitation. Every where else holds that property should be treated differently between married and living together. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 3:27:31 PM |
You, of course, are assuming that she will never take it to court and challenge it?
Well you can say the same thing about a split with NO prenup in place too.
If someone is determined to go to war, a prenup won't necessarily stop it... but at the very least, it can affect how things turn out.
But as I said before... the case you are talking about doesn't mean prenups are invalid. It just means that when making changes to property ownership, the prenum NEEDS to get updated.
The Supreme Court has the final say.
Irrelevant to what I'm saying. If they hadn't moved or bought a home together, or if he charged her rent instead of having her 'contribute', I'm quite sure that the outcome would have been different. The guy made some big mistakes, legally speaking.
I know there is a lot of creativity going on out there. That is why I say the word "crafted" to describe some of these pre-nupts.
Creativity and 'crafting' has nothing to do with it. The judge was following well-established case law precedents... one of which is when a couple buy a home 'together', it almost always gets split 50-50. The only ways to get around that is to have her NOT 'contribute', Not have her name on the ownership and charge her rent.
The guy did none of those things... so he didn't have much of a case.
It also helps to know that there are specific laws out there that trump other laws that could be used.
That's nothing new either. The Constitution Act and the Charter of Rights trump all other Canadian Laws
I will also say that most judges have seen and heard EVERYTHING. Don't ever assume that you are smarter than they are.
Being smart, as far as the judge is concerned, wouldn't even come into play. What you've described is covered by well-established case law. It isn't new legal territory.
I will also say that never ever assume what "darling" agrees to now is what will stand up in court.
What 'darling' agrees to now will hold up in court if the agreement is kept current and each side got independent legal advice and get the document notarized.
What he should have done is modify the prenum agreement with a post-nup update... and do that BEFORE getting the place together. And in that aggreement, her 'contribution' would be *rent* paid to him... which would make her ownership interest in the home down to nothing because she would be viewed legally as any other person who rents an apartment.
But he did not do this. Thus, the court ruled that the house they got together that she 'contributed to' was a 'matrimonial home', and thus, the 50-50 rule kicked in. And the reason why they do this is because of situations where one spouse stays home and contributes in non-monetary ways.
This is basic legal stuff Belle Lass... it's not ground breaking, it isn't new and it doesn't mean Prenups are a waste of time.
All it means is that it is absolutely essential to keep that pre/post nup agreement up to date AND that both sides get independent legal advice so that neither side can say later that they were 'pressured' or 'didn't understand' or provide some other clueless BS excuse to get out of what they agreed to. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 3:30:53 PM | To all of you people who are outside the U.S. I dont know the laws of your country. I dont bother to check your state/country of origin before answering your questions so in some cases, particularly Canada, I MAY be mistaken. That caveat being said:
Arabian.. YES.. It IS the law almost everywhere in the U.S. The state wants SOMEONE to pick up the tab for the kid, and fact is, they punish the man financially for the indescrition of the woman. Even a DNA test wont help you, NOR will it help you if you can prove that your vasectomy has you shooting blanks. If a sterile HUSBAND's legally married WIFE gets knocked up, he WILL pay.
Sweetest - to you I must believe that your thinking is because you are YOUNG (didnt check to see) and that you are still filled with that "romantic DELUSION" about what marriage IS. Whatever you want & hope that it MEANS to those "IN LOVE" hearts, it is still a LEGAL PARTNERSHIP CONTRACT.
Remember one of my mottos. REAL adult love cannot be FALLEN OUT OF, since it was never FALLEN into. Divorce court, custody battles, property battles are NEVER litigated from a place of LOVE. The love is long gone, making for the WAR. If you want to have stars in your eyes and enter into a marriage(remember, a legally binding partnership CONTRACT) on a post-orgasmic promise, you are welcome to do just that.
Some would say "If you love me, you wouldnt ask me to sign this agreement" To them I would say "If YOU love ME, you would NEVER preface anything with 'If you love me'.
You see, the person(either gender) that goes to their about-to-be-married partner and says, "Before I marry you, I need/want you to sign this agreement" is NOT prefacing it with "If you love me". They are just asking their partner to agree to something. Just like they both went through the dating and agreed to things like sex, restaurants, where to live once married, number of kids they are PLANNING on having/wanting, church, yada yada yada..
Wait, hold up a sec.. are you thinking that most people DIDNT have that whole LIFEPLAN talk BEFORE picking a ring and a date? Dont say it... PLEASE dont say that people marry without talking these things out IN ADVANCE. Please NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Well, enough with the irony of those last two paragraphs and back to serious.
If you two DID talk about all of those things, then a WRITTEN domestic partnership agreement should be executed.
It's been said.. "If it can be SAID in spoken words, Then it can be WRITTEN"
So sayeth the expert on life experience!! | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/16/2009 4:29:59 PM | 31 pages! I may have responded already.
No, I would not sign a prenup, nor would I require another to sign one (and I was in an unequal financial relationship that others of this ilk would have recommended). Preparing for a break-up while falling in love foreshadows failure. If it fails, I walk away with what I started, not more and not less. I am trustworthy and if someone doesn't trust me, then we should not be partners. | |
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| Would you sign a prenuptial agreement?
Posted: 9/17/2009 11:11:21 AM | Getting married without a pre-nup is like casual sex without condoms...statistics suggest you're gonna regret it.
I will not ever marry again unless she signs a pre nup for both financials and future children. Saying you're trustworthy doesn't mean a damn thing 6 years and two kids down the road if you find out that the guy you haven't given it too in over 6 months (unless there's something medical, there's just no excuse for that level of manipulation) is secretly getting some on the side from your best friend. The system is far too biased toward women, especially pertaining to child custody for any man to be foolish enough to get married without some form of legal protection. Seriously men...if you want children make sure she signs something before hand because you absoloutely cannot trust the system to protect your rights and interests later on...I assure you. | |
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