| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 7:56:02 AM | ^^^ For one, you are talking about "sport-specific" exercises. Just as it is for runners, or martial artists, or soccer players, and so on....you do exercises that specifically build for your particular sport or range of motions in that sport that it requires.
What I do in martial arts is completey different than any other sport.
And 15 min. of 225lb squats I doubt he is doing 1 rep per 5 seconds either as the average either. Your lower back and shoulders will probably fatigue before your legs do. He gets support help from a partner, and probably does 10 reps the 1st min. and it will slowly decrease as he fatigues. But if the "general public" wants lower back problems, than by all means do that exercise routine lol....15 min. does not tell you how much rest time between reps or sets either. He probably does max reps till he fatigues, than rests 1-2 min. and does them again and so on until the 15 min. mark is up. That is completely different than just flat out 15 min. of squats....Just the range of motion alone will fatigue his muscles let alone adding 225lbs to it.
You know, you can put out all the literature you want about who did what one day back in the past. It's just like a diet. If one diet worked than why is/has there been 5 million diets out there. All of Erics work is done in the lower body mostly except for balance work.
This is a forum topic with giving ideas for people asking general questions about how to build shoulders! Not how to build hamstrings and quadracep muscles. For one, both of those muscle groups are completely different and require completely different types of training. So while your attemps are validated, you are now going off course for the people who are asking general typical shoulder routine questions.
Guys or ladies who are not gym rats or professionals, stick to the normal routines and not the off the wall 1000 reps for 2 hours routine junk.....if yu want to get injured, than by all means.... | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 10:09:30 AM | It's one set of 15 minutes, and one set of 40 to 60 minutes.
No stopping, no sets, no rests.
If you run 1/2 way around a track that's already 100 reps, and you're going to stop at 6 reps? Come on get serious. I notice the only ones coming up with these 6 rep ideas are big heavy guys.
What I would do in your situation is take a look at your strength per pound, lose some weight, get out of the gym and start doing some real exercise. Otherwise, take a look at what Arnold looks like now. Do you really want to end up looking like that?
Also as def poet said, it's a matter of preferences and priorities. Mine are #1 health, #2 fitness, and #3 competition. All of these are important though competition is frivolous. And health gets more important the older you get. If you have your health you have a lot, and if you don't have your health you have nothing. | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 10:51:28 AM | | big guys do 6 reps because thats what got them big and as far as strength is concerned i bench over 200kg so what are you talking about anyone can do high reps if the weight is light enough. you mention arnold but what about slys body he is similar age to you isnt he ? im sure your approach to training has its uses but the post is about building shoulders not improving muscular endurance which imo is what high reps training is for. i agree that some trainers put gains in appearance before there health but to say all people with large muscular physiques do this is pure nonsense. | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 11:27:49 AM | John....most guys who are runners are string bean skinny noodles....so where's the "build" in that sentance? no where, it's endurance....yea thought so...endurance does not always equate to strength. That is why you build your fast AND slow twitch muscles. For some people it's all about how you carry your weight. Alot of "big guys" are very light on their feet. Just look at a guy named "Bettis" from Pittsburg and you will see what I mean. Junior Seau is 6'-3" tall and 250 and regarded as one of the best and fastest football linebackers, maybe even athletes in the NFL in his hay-day, so Strength and bulk does not automatically cooralate to slow. You should see his off season training doing the Egoscue Method workout. It's awsome. And it would kick your butt...and that is not even sport-specific...alot of athletes do this trainging.....
Different methods and different tactics work for different people. High repetitions will not build bulk and muscle mass because you have to lift heavy for that which you are building your slow twitch muscles. That is why runners or cyclists are string beans ebcause they lift light weights. They don't want muscle mass and muscle weight. That want to be as strong as they can while being as light as they can. There's your "trade off". For some the bigger you get the more agile you want to be with the accumulated strength so you can still be swift on your feet. Or you can be one of those squat, deadlift, bench press guys who are as wide as a cadillac and do 1000lbs for the world records, yet for anything else they are not very strong and agile at....
I can go on and on, but would go no where with you lol....
It's basically this, there are different types of working out, whether it's based soley on "lifestyle", "sport specific", "health reasons", "body limitations" and so on that will dictate your workout, hence why there is never only ( 1 way ) of doing an exercise. There are guys out there who are a heavy 200lbs, and guys out there who are a light 200lbs, and people who are into fitness will get what I mean. It's not all about muscle mass, it's about agility, flexability, and core strength on top of mass, density or size....so it's never just one...so based on your goals is where you need to decide what category you want to fit in if your body will alow you to do so.
Like I always say, you can stand 2 guys side by side, and they both are 6'-0" tall, both are 200lbs, and one has a 3-5% body fat and the other has a 28% body fat, and you will see 2 completely different people...yet, number wise they are the same...so yes, the mirror does not lie.... know your limits, whether you are a man or a woman, whether you are a rookie in the gym or a veteran over the years, you have to know your own limitations before anything. Than you work on whether you can surpass that over time in building strength and endurance and your health. If you don't know your limitations currently, than you have nothing for a gauge by which to build a program around. I'm not talking about the 45 min. 1000 reps junk anymore, it's a waste of brain space. | |
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indra
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Joined: 2/19/2006
Msg: 55 | |
| building shoulders
Posted: 7/30/2007 4:25:15 PM | There's not much detail in your post, but I will go with what I've got.
-Do dips (you'll have to be in pretty good shape, not overweight, and have good flexibility). Dips are similar to parallel bars where your body is supported on stiffened arms with your palms on horizontal bars approximately shoulder length apart. Then you slowly and deeply "dip" down and then lift yourself back up. This is the best arm/shoulder exercise and is also great at defining the muscles directly below the armpits but above the abs.
-Lower body fat %
Those two will develop and reveal your delts. If you are interested in making them look ripped, do hundreds of reps at low weight. Your arms will feel like jelly when you're doing it right.
Remember that diet is important! If you aren't eating enough lean protein, your body will just transfer muscle and protein from other areas.
Indra | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 7:01:31 PM | johnlvs2run, with all due respect, you are talking about training methods that are done by people who are athletic in sport specific areas. They train to fatigue for several hours a day so that their bodies are prepared for maximum performance when it comes time for them to do their thing .. they aren't using high reps so that they can build muscle?? That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Do you regularly see the muscular physiques sitting with a 20 lb barbell doing 100 useless reps of an overhead press to build their delts? Please. You might see someone who is a professional rower doing a workout that is based on endurance more so than strength, for example, but the average joe who is training to build should change his name to Sally if this is how he wants to train in the gym.
... .Messages 52 and 54 said exactly what I would have. And these are the type of people who I learned from for years in the gym ... my personal gains didn't come from having the name tag Sally on my water bottle. You either walk the walk, and talk the talk .. or you don't. And I have never listened or learned a thing from anyone who didn't LOOK like they knew what they were talking about.
And .. by the way, what IS wrong with the way Arnold looks now? | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 7:39:37 PM | I GOT a 100 pound cement block(DEAD WEIGHT) at home with a metal handle attached to it that I like to front raises with when I CAN'T GET TO THE GYM.It makes for agreat substitute. | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 7:53:13 PM |
If you run 1/2 way around a track that's already 100 reps, and you're going to stop at 6 reps? Come on get serious. I notice the only ones coming up with these 6 rep ideas are big heavy guys.
Surely, you jest.  | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/30/2007 10:25:19 PM |
Surely, you jest.
No he doesn't ~~BP~~ read his other entries.....he needs some  | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 7/31/2007 4:24:48 PM |
No he doesn't ~~BP~~ read his other entries.....
I was trying to be as diplomatic and non-incendiary in choosing my words as possible.  | |
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M.I.
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Joined: 2/2/2007
Msg: 61 | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 8/1/2007 5:56:07 AM | | I would attempt to debate the issue further, but it appears I'm only a "big heavy guy". Who knew? | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 8/1/2007 11:39:15 AM | I have pretty good shoulder genetics so it's never been an area I've needed to concern myself with. The majority opinion here sounds good to me.
Keep in mind though that "ripped" really isn't the way that your average person should be looking on a day-in-day-out basis. Alot of athletes shed weight prior to a competition, but generally walk around with a nice *healthy* layer of fat.
Others of course can't help it and have to "work hard", ie. stuff their face at every oppurtunity, just to keep that nice healthy layer of fat.
"The grass is always greener...", I suppose. | |
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| building shoulders
Posted: 8/1/2007 7:40:52 PM | Indra, thank you very much for your message.
This morning I hooked up extra cords to the rollerboard and then did a few dips tonight.
The cords make stability an issue, but I did 20 of them anyway and will gradually increase this to more.
I am very happy to add these to the things that I do.
It is very nice to to get such helpful and supportive ideas like this from the forum.
Thanks again. | |
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indra
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Joined: 2/19/2006
Msg: 66 | |
| building shoulders
Posted: 8/1/2007 8:54:49 PM | 50 nickles: with all due respect, the poster was asking "how to make his delts look ripped." This assumes that he already has the muscle mass and is seeking to sculpt it and make it more defined. While I'm sure your advice of "eat and exercise correctly" is true, it truly doesn't provide anything tangible for the OP to apply. Seems sort of like, "how do I lose weight" with a reply of "make the weight get lost."
Why a hundred reps? Why 5 minutes? Because that is what it takes to "cut" a muscle group. Look at a runner's legs. They do strength training to build the muscles' peak power output, they do flexibility training to increase total power, then they rull like hell. The running is what causes their legs' "definition." Without the running part, they would have huge globs of muscle. Same for shoulders. A boxer would be my example for shoulders.
Please edjucate yourself about how to define and "cut" a muscle. The only way is diet and high reps.
Educating the masses,
Indra | |
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| building shoulders
Posted: 8/1/2007 10:03:30 PM | ^^^^^ With all due respect, I will be jumping in here and posting before 50 nickles does.
#1 .... Newsflash, indra. 50 nickles did give general advice on 'eating correctly'... he just didn't expand on it. He knows, and I know, what he meant. It means ... watch your caloric intake. That is what he meant .. but he said it in four words or less.
He was right.
#2 .... The second part is cardio. If you think that cutting a muscle requires unusually high reps, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Fire away, Indra.
Cutting a muscle means diet .... and cardio. Diet and cardio has been the way to cut for ... ever. Hmm. Since when has this changed?
The above post is allowing himself to 'educate', and I use that word very loosely, the thousands out there who apparently use unusually high reps to get cut? Here I thought it was diet and cardio all the way .... damn! They have been LYING to me!! I have been dieting and doing cardio to achieve a 14%BF every summer when all along .. .I should have been doing 100 rep sets! Maybe I should hire you to train me.
Indra. Please educate those who obviously don't have a clue. They need you to educate them.
Flex Wheeler, Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, Lee Priest and Corey Everson .. etc etc ... all need you to take them to the next level. The female fitness competitors need the advice, too. Maybe they will get REALLY cut and make it to the top when they realize cardio wasn't needed in order for them to get ripped. And every amateur aspiring athlete who needs advice should look at your's ... and not those who started at the very bottom and only made it to the Olympias. Tsk, tsk. The world better look at reinventing the wheel.
Looking forward to continuing on a more scientific level. You better know your stuff, Indra, and something tells me the smoke gets thicker with each passing post. !!
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 8/1/2007 11:30:15 PM |
I would attempt to debate the issue further, but it appears I'm only a "big heavy guy". Who knew? 
That's hilarious to say the least BP
Indra it almost sounds like your talking about spot cutting which is a bullshit myth as well, Liana is right with this one, you can't "cut" a specific muscle group, you cut in total, it's like spot fat reduction, just doesn't happen naturally. High intensity cardio, watching your caloric intake, and eating right are just a few ways to cut properly.
There are a million different ways of sport conditioning, each sport has it's own way to condition, this includes body building or people that want to bulk up. | |
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| sweet potatoes and pumpkin
Posted: 8/1/2007 11:45:59 PM | I'm sure Liana K, BP, and myself are all looking to be 'educated' in this field 
Fire away, Indra.
Don't let BPs pics mislead you...she has no heck of a body and muscle mass. No pink dumbbells for us! 
Women can lift an incredibly huge amount of weight repeatedly, and develop great muscle mass, but unless we're doing 'roids, we don't have the hormones to look like a 'big heavy guy', etc.
I lift hard, heavy and often (yes, with appropriate rest periods) and i look no where like a man, but can out lift many weekend/evening athletes in my gym on a regular basis. I also have many of them come to me for training tips! | |
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| building shoulders
Posted: 8/2/2007 7:30:20 AM | | i know how to get defined its simple remove the fat in front of the muscle you cannot carve lines into the body the definition is there you just have to get rid of what is hiding it. the title of the post is building shoulders isnt it ? and considering i have competed in a bodybuilding show at around 5 percent bf with visible cross stirations in my physique including shoulders i have plenty of knowledge on how to do this . would you like to explain the scientific process in which high reps add muscular definition? i train and have trained people for all sorts of goals so dont insult me by telling me to edjucate myself . looking forward to your explanation on high reps and how they carve lines into the body. | |
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| building shoulders
Posted: 8/2/2007 3:18:17 PM | | When I go into my shoulder circuit I usually train for 4 weeks. Some people have posted a shorter period of time. Some thoughts on this and joint pain. Usually by the time the 3rd week rolls around my elbows especially seem more tender. Any supplements? My training is usually up to 12 reps, a 2 count in the positive and a four count negative with perfect form, then increase weight. This is the way I usually train in my home gym. I've joined the local UBC (its on the net) Ultimate Bodyshaping Course in the fall and winter for a change of pace and I like it alot. Any suggestions for an old guy would be appreciated. | |
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| building shoulders
Posted: 8/2/2007 3:23:12 PM | ^^^ what does your "shoulder circuit" consist of?
I'm guessing if you start to hurt in the third week, you're overtraining.
This thread keeps getting better and better....or worse. | |
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| building shoulders
Posted: 8/2/2007 4:10:26 PM | justagirl check out message 27.
My basic routine consists of about 20 exercises of up to 12 reps each. I've been doing the high intensity training for about 20+ years. I substitute those exercises in msg 27 for some of my normal lower body workout. I do a modified Arnold press all the time, which starts on the floor and goes thru a normal Arnold press but on the return I do a tricep isolation with both dumbbells at the same time. I could start to ache more because I'm 51 also. | |
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indra
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Joined: 2/19/2006
Msg: 74 | |
| building shoulders
Posted: 8/2/2007 8:44:48 PM | Liana,
I appreciate your valiant defense of 50 and I understand that you know and 50 knows, but, this thread was asked by somebody else who obviously does not know. This isn't a thread about body builders talking to body builders. He's obviously a normal person trying to get in shape and wanted more definition in his delts. The reason he asked the question is because he wants details.
Regarding your point about "unusually high" reps. 100 reps in 5 minutes adds up to exactly 20 reps per minute or a rep every 3 seconds. This is not an absurd amount of reps by ANY definition.
Next, I mentioned that diet is very important. You are preaching to the choir on that one.
Furthermore, the poster didn't say that he/she was a professional fitness competitor nor that that was the ultimate goal.
Sure, you could run him to death on the treadmill, sure that will work.
I know my stuff enough to know that there are numerous ways to reach fitness goals. If you are training the poster to be a professional body builder, your advice was right. But, there are hundreds of sports out there and thousands of trainers each with their own methods.
Science is my favorite subject and I would love to discuss it with you. I would also encourage you, if you are so into science, to publish in a journal instead of a dating website. I'd also like to remind you that muscles aren't made in a laboratory. There've been great athletes for thousands of years, and for most of that time, science didn't even exist. I'm a Marine and my workouts consisted largely of calisthenics. Huge reps of a variety of exercises. And you know what? I had muscle definition even though I was doing unusually high reps! Guess how we get those awesome pecs, shoulders, and arms? Hundreds and hundreds of pushups and pullups. Guess how we got those terrific abs? Hundreds and hundreds of crunches. I know my stuff, sweety.
So, fire on Liana! Science is great and bodybuilding is great, but the method that I know works is trusted by millions of service people across the world.
Newsflash Liana: not everybody wants to be a bodybuilder. There's a huge number of sports and training programs out there and if they all trained like you they would likely fail at their specific specialty.
Indra | |
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| building shoulders
Posted: 8/2/2007 9:05:22 PM |
Regarding your point about "unusually high" reps. 100 reps in 5 minutes adds up to exactly 20 reps per minute or a rep every 3 seconds. This is not an absurd amount of reps by ANY definition.
Well, it's absurd by MY definition. Not the 100 reps part necessarily but the 100 reps in 5 mins part.
100 reps in 5 mins is NOT equal to 5 sets of 20 reps with a 90RI.
100 reps in 5mins is NOT equal to 4 sets of 25 with a 120RI.
Show me how you do 100reps in 5 mins with PERFECT form, using any *SIGNIFICANT* weight, and I'll give you a gold star. | |
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