| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/30/2006 8:51:25 PM | Kathy
Ok it explains the evil at the time of Eden before Adam and Eve fell. It still does not answer how a God of wholesome good can create an angel that chose an evil option where there was no evil previously to choose from...
The predicament remains... | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 8:48:40 AM | Very interesting and thoughtful discussion you guys. I just don't want to get too far off topic with asking why Satin choose evil, eventhough I see the logic of asking the question in association with this topic. Why did Satan choose evil is a good question but I think what we are discussing in this thread of mine is:
What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?"
So interesting discussion Robert and Kathy. Thank you for your post therandomguy although you offered much more information and many more questions than needed for this topic, is see where you are coming from on this tipic.
Since the idea of original sin seem to be somewhat open ended perhaps we could focus on the charaistics of original sin like I asked earlier.
Perhaps in looking at opposites we can sometimes find some indicators of these charactoristics of original sin.
What is pure Goodness?
Kathy you simply seem to be saying pure goodness is God. Could you put it in a more human charactoristic way. For example love and if love, do you believe like me that it is unconditional love, spicifically? The love that Jesus showed during His torturing by the Romans and Pharasiees, on the cross, and yet saying from that cross, "forgive them Lord"? To me that kind of love is real love and real goodness, the kind that no one could ever prove to be anything other than real love, unconditional love.
So, do you think it is worthwhile to discuss the opisite of "Original Sin" in order to find clues of the charactoristics of what is really meant by the term "Original Sin"? | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 8:58:54 AM | Someone on the forum here asked an excellent question which no one seemed to address.
If God the creator is a God of Love, why did he make the world in such a place where predators kill in order to eat and survive?
Our world is a darwinian environment in which the strongest species struggle and survive. Our world history before man shows savage competition among species which runs quite rampant around the globe.
Where does a loving God fit into this equation? Where was the peaceful harmony of Eden before original sin came into the picture? The rosy picture of our world before original sin happened is not compatible with the fierce competition for survival that the reality of our world actually was and still is... | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 10:04:17 AM | | I agree with you on the concepts you presented, Robert but where does this little thing called unconditional love come from and how does it apply to finding the answer to the question posed in this thread? | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 11:53:54 AM | In order to answer your question I have to ask you another one....who developed the idea that God is offering unconditional love? Many here state that you must accept Jesus to be saved and then he will stand in for your sins. That sounds like a condition to me.
Nevertheless, does unconditional love present itself in the old testament or more in the New Testament?
Unconditional love implies that love will be given by God regardless of the belief system we carry. I see no evidence of original sin on this earth. We can put this into a math equation to prove my point.
A = Life on earth before Adam fell.
B = Adam and Eve's decision to sin
C= Life on earth after Adam & Eve's decision
In category A, as I have said we have a violent predatory world where species competes with species in order to survive. Harmony here is in the equilibrium of society in preserving the food chain. I stress the importance that the survival of many species depends on the killing of other species. The loving God created life during these times before man with the same basic principles we now have. Scarce resources - each species did not have what it needed without killing or encroaching on another species. Limited life - all species were born, live and die. Other principles such as gravity, hunger, consumption and gestation are equally consistent.
Category B For one brief moment, Adam and Eve decide to eat from the tree after being persuaded by a talking serpent. First we have a problem of only two beings starting a whole human race and how that eventually ended up splitting up into 5 different races. Same principles as in Category A continue to remain consistent.
Category C All principles that govern this earth as mentioned in both A and B remain consistent in C. Therefore the concept of original sin was developed by man in order to explain why he lives in the world the way he does. Maybe the idea of original sin is to help explain the difference between the wild predatory animal kingdom and the consciously aware of man. It is from our ability of self-consciousness that the concepts of sin, free will, evil and good, dark and light ascend. Maybe there is another reality outside consciousness that we are aware of...such as our own animal kingdom.
Take care
Robert | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 12:25:30 PM | Maybe the idea of original sin is to help explain the difference between the wild predatory animal kingdom and the consciously aware of man. It is from our ability of self-consciousness that the concepts of sin, free will, evil and good, dark and light ascend.
Now someone is doing some thinking. Way to go Robert it seems to me you have an clear thinking mind and a heart for wisdom. 
Does anyone else have an idea of what "Original Sin" represents in their faith?
By the way the unconditional love is what Jesus showed us by His forgiveness and that is all I know for sure. The rest is not in my hands. I don't even really know whether we really have any true choices in life or whether it all been "written down" ahead of time. I do tent to lean toward the ladder concept though.
I do see unconditional love as the opposite of Original Sin or any sin for that matter. So the kind of love you mentioned "conditional love" is what I think I am understanding to be Original Sin. Or maybe at it's heart Original Sin could be condemnation. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 12:54:13 PM | Tim
question for you ....we are taught that Jesus saves and shows us his forgiveness. Many Christians argue that if you do not believe you will not be saved. Is that not a condition on the unconditional love you mentioned?
thanks
Robert
PS. It is cold up here in Canada ...put a shirt on man!! | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 1:01:06 PM | It's warm down her no need for a shirt. Sounds like you are no stranger to conditions as far as the shirt comment goes. I do hope you feel the warmth of Spring soon.
The unconditional love was and is still here and that is where you will find the answer to this question, do you see what I mean, Robert. Gotta run to a wedding. I'll check back with you asap. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 1:32:18 PM | I think everyone, religious or not, understands that we have the original tendancy to make mistakes. Now, a mistake in general isn't a sin, but mistakes in justifying one's own actions that cause harm to others or leads you down a disorderly path towards unhappiness would be a mistake leading to "sin".
Since I do not have extensive knowledge of psychology and anthropology, it requires a small ounce of faith to say that we are all born, to various degrees, to have a tendancy to sin under certain environmental circumstances.
Instead of understanding one's own flawed tendancies which can lead to sinful actions, extremely traditional Christian religion puts the fear of 'God' into people that we are incredibly sinful, and throws the baby out with the bathwater by instilling a sweep of harsh rules and lack of freedom on just about everything, to ensure order. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 3/31/2006 3:51:45 PM | | In my faith, it represents the attempt of religion to make sure people believe that they are forced to believe in it even if they live good, happy lives. Essentially the old "You have a problem and only XXXX can save you, but you can't stop getting help from XXXX because if you do, your problem will come back." An easy way to stay in power. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 1:49:19 AM | The terms "sin" and "evil" are not necessarily interchangeable. The literal Biblical and theological definition of sin is anything less than perfection. God has no sin because He is perfect. Anything less than a perfect God would not be "God" by definition. "Evil" is a term used and applied to the consequences of sin. Sin entered the world because of a flawed imperfect choice by an imperfect being, (man) who became imperfect because of the consequences of an imperfect choice. The fact that Jesus was here in the flesh does not mean he was a sinner because the genetic ancestry of sin was not imparted to him due to the virgin birth. "The sin is in the blood.." remember? Adam and Eve seperated themselves from Gods perfect choice for them, which was to trust him implicitly, and in essence said to God that they would chart thier own course in life apart from God. That seperation from God caused mans mortality, which is an act of mercy on Gods part. (To live immortal in a fallen state would be horrific. God will restore all that was lost including absolute perfection for those who interestingly enough, by choice choose to accept Jesus.) Doubting Gods goodness and love is exactly the means Satan used to tempt man. Had Adam and Eve remained steadfast in their belief in Gods goodness and trusted in His love they would have not made the wrong choice that they did. Angelic beings have a free will by the way, as evidenced by the third of the heavenly host that turned with Satan against God. God did not want automotons or robots to worship or love him, rather He wanted to be loved freely by choice.What many people fail to think about is that we will still have a free will in heaven, and this is exactly why it is a matter of the heart conversion that is required. In heaven, perfection still exsists. Saying that God cannot let sin enter heaven is simply saying God wll not allow imperfection to enter heaven.You should know that your spirit probably exsisted before you were bornin some state or fashion because the Bible mentions it returning unto God who gave it. The spirit resides in a vessel we call a "soul". You were meant to be a eternal being. Individuals are the sum of the choices in their life. If you spend your life continually rejecting God, what reason have you to complain if He doesn't invite you into His heavenly home? Of course God has "attributes". You have attributes don't you?? Are you kind and loving? Or spitefull and mean? Think of your life as traveling down a road where you constantly come to forks in the road. Which way do you go? (Imperfect beings will make imperfect choices remember...) If you follow God by making kind and loving choices which are attributes of God, you will be closer to God and closer to the right path. If you only make selfish choices over a lifetime, you will be far from God. It is not usually a single act that defines us unless we commit some horrible act perhaps, but rather the sum total of our choices and the pattern of those choices that defines us as being thought of as a "good" or "bad" person. There is evidence to suggest we exsisted with God prior to our birth here on earth, although it is not certain. Rest assured, God will restore everything in the end. The first fundemental belief required is that "God Is", a thought expressed by a theologian named Buber or (Or Burber?). If you are settled on the fact that God exisits, the next question becomes "What can I know about God?" And, of course, does God want anything from me?
Religion is mans attempt to understand God and is imperfect too. Especially organized religion.
God does not care if you are Baptist, Catholic, Pentacostal, or whatever, when it comes to salvation. I am not a "religious" person. Religion saves no person. All God is really asking is for man to understand that man is flawed or imperfect. The attributes of God include justice, so there must be a penalty or consequence for certain conduct. Mercy is another equally important attribute of God, so he forgives. Jesus death on the cross satisfied the requirement for justice. God has no evil in Him.If you do not begin with understanding and believing that God is good, kind and loving, it will be very difficult if not impossible to understand Him. You cannot use "process theology" to try to understand God. That approach is similar to "reverse engineering" a product to see how it works. The reason that it won't work with God is that he has all knowledge, wisdom, and we simply do not have the mental faculties to dissect the mind of God. We can approach God with logic and reason. The verse that says "thouh your sins be as scarlet..." has a preamble that says "come, let us reason together.." You can understand certain things about God. What He chooses to reveal. What many fail to see is that the crucifixion was in effect, a love story. It spoke of the pain and suffering Jesus was willing to endure to ensure our place in heaven if we choose Him. By choosing Him we do not become slaves and lowly vile servants. Jesus said "Henceforth I no longer call you servants, but friends..." God does not expect you to pray for what type of toothpaste to use, or what car to drive, but rather to allow His attributes to rule your heart and to do your best to live by His principles of Love and caring, and mercy and grace and forfiveness. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 2:01:21 AM | | Robertj64 The answer seems simple to me. God created beings with free will. He knew some would reject Him. The upside was some would love Him by free choice. Was Hitler "evil" when he was born as a baby? Or did he become evil by virtue of the choices he made? The answer is that Satan became evil after he was created. "Evil" is just a term we use to describe the negative effects of bad choices in this particular case. Hitler may have suffered the effects of original sin in his body in that he was mortal from birth, but he was not predestined to become the murdering tyrant he eventually became. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 2:08:00 AM | | Darwinisim is and was just a theory. Those who scoff at Jesus and say "prove it" interestingly do not apply the same rules to all that we have been taught about Darwins theory. The truth is, I agree..It seems like a "dog eat dog" world out there. But it is so becasue we believe it to a large degree and choose it. Remember, man was not always a carnivore according to the Bible. All of what you see that is negative is the result of original sin. Not just man was affected, but his enviornment too. Thus, the examples of the predators eating the weak are simply part of the fall from perfection. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 6:35:06 AM | c4jazzfan,
Your post makes no sense. Please reread message #30. We have evidence that our world was a "dog eat dog" world before man ever came into existence. Therefore by your definition original sin predates man?
Dinosaurs and other creatures were carnivores and they existed about a million years before man came into existence. I am not talking about Darwinian theory here...I am talking about scientific proof.
Predators eating from the weak predates man by many millions of years so your theory of original sin has just been blown out of the water.
In order for you to defend your theory, you must show scientific evidence that life before original sin was not "dog eat dog".
Good Luck!!!
Robert | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 9:59:11 AM | c4jazzfan,
All God is really asking is for man to understand that man is flawed or imperfect.
Well, it certainly doesn't take religion, or any reference to religion to understand that we are inheritley flawed and imperfect. But I could see how religion (or a belief in a God or Gods) could be inspiration or a vessel to re-inforce and keep one aware of this self-evident fact.
Religion saves no person ... God has no evil in Him ... Jesus death on the cross satisfied the requirement for justice
Believing in a God, what 'he' wants, what he's about, who he sent down from supernatural paradise and the reasons behind it -- that requires religion. So believing in this makes you a religious person. Maybe not within an organized religion, but that is what religion is -- practically speaking, any step forward beyond believing in the existence of a God (the story behind it all).
We can approach God with logic and reason.
I agree with you that if there is a God as generally described by middle eastern/western religions, we cannot know everything about him. But I don't think that is what causes arguments at all. Nobody non-theistic is asking for that, and few who are theistic claim to know that.
If one is to truly approach the God concept from a logistical point of view, it would mean, by definition, that you would treat it the same way one would treat any other concept -- everything from the existince of visiting extra-terrestrials of a higher intelligence to geology to who stole money out of the company's petty cash fund.
Problem is that logistically, the burden of proof is on the person asserting that a specific God in fact exists. Secondly, the burden of proof is on the person who claims to know what God wants, demands, is jealous of, loves, hates, etc.
It becomes much less difficult when one pre-judges that a specific God in fact exists (which does seem to emotionally make sense naturally, with little environmental influences), and that God is the God of the Bible in one way, shape, or form. However, taking the concept as a whole, being logistical and reasonable about it, as hard as it is to say, doesn't come close to adding up. Because being reasonable means you don't ignore what invalidates the fundamental concepts -- which puts non-theists (agnostic, atheist, or whatever other labels one wishes to use) in a position of the bad guys. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 10:07:42 AM | I think you make a very good point with dinosaurs Robert but this thread is not as much about scientific evidence as much as it is about personal faith.
Jazzfan, what I would ask you is do you think that Original sin may be eating other life forms and if so what life forms are acceptable to eat and still not be doing harm to other life forms. This is an interesting discussion of what is original sin to me because I feel personally that fish, foul and other life forms without much personality are somewhat ok to eat but other forms like cows, dogs, cats, rabbits, pigs and goats are not good to eat at all. I do not understand why I feel the way I do about these creatures or how I could ever judge for myself what is right to kill and eat and what is not. But I do thank God for the food I eat most of the time before I eat it out of respect and try to limit my intake of red meat a lot of the time and foul sometime. I do love shrimp and have little trouble eating them though. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 10:22:08 AM |
Darwinisim is and was just a theory.
It's not just a theory. It's not the street-term of 'theory' which equates to hypothesis. Many falsely believe that things go in this direction:
Guess -> Hypothesis -> Theory -> Fact
This is not true, by the definition of theory that used within the scientific community. 'Theory' in the scientific community is like using the word 'Judge's Opinion' in the legal community. A theory can be a fact. Look at the Theory of Sexual Reproduction. It's actually a fact, too, just as there would still be a Judge's Opinion that someone committed a crime, even if there was enough evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt (video camera taping him shooting someone, finger prints, DNA and multiple witnesses).
A Theory, just like an Opinion, is an explanation. That's all that it means. It does not imply unproven, like the street-definition does. So all of this is a battle of definitions actually. Saying that the evolution of species is "just" a theory implies that it is a theory that is not verified.
Those who scoff at Jesus and say "prove it" interestingly do not apply the same rules to all that we have been taught about Darwins theory.
Believing in Jesus' divinity has no basis, and is merely a claim by the multiple authors of the gospels. There's nothing to go by. I would "scoff" just as much at someone believing in the evolution of species, just because someone told them so. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/3/2006 12:00:38 PM | | Azureorb good counterpoint. The only thing I would take issue with is that there is much more evidence of Jesus in the shift of actions be intervals and cultures from a Darwinian survival of the fittest (eye for an eye) to a Christ's unconditional love (turn the other cheek). | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/4/2006 11:02:10 PM | You wrote: "Come on now folks out there in Plenty of Fish land. What do you think was Original Sin really a corruptible piece of fruit or was it symbolic of disobediences..."
I wonder if our "punishment" is the result of natural consequences rather than a mean thing God decided to do to us. Have you ever taught your dog to stay out of the street but he did it anyway and got hit? Or maybe you tried to keep sweets away from your toddler but Grandma introduced them and then your toddler grew up to be fat and lonely. Or you taught your young child not to go near the swimming pool but he did it anyway and drowned. Wouldn't any of these things break your heart if they happened to your loved one? Maybe God's heart broke when Adam and Eve exposed themselves to danger by disobeying Him.
Maybe simply the "knowledge" of corruption is what was at stake. Would you want your pre-teen to acquire first-hand knowledge of sex or drug use? Most reasonable people would say, "no" because they are too young to be equipped to know what to do with their limited knowledge and they will get themselves into trouble; They don't have the full picture and a little knowledge to a small child or teenager can be very dangerous.
Don't most of us try to keep our children in a protective, loving, sheltered bubble surrounded by happiness and sheltered from the outside world for as long as possible? Is it possible that God was trying to protect Adam and Eve from knowledge that they were not prepared to handle by telling them to stay away from the tree of knowledge? If so, the natural consequences of having their eyes opened kicked in and they became evil people -- just like children who grow up in violent gangs often become evil people simply because evil is all they know.
Maybe the Original Sin that is passed down from generation to generation is simply the natural consequence of leaving our parent's side or our protective bubble. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/5/2006 12:27:09 AM |
Don't most of us try to keep our children in a protective, loving, sheltered bubble surrounded by happiness and sheltered from the outside world for as long as possible?
Thanks Moltenmagma for your thoughtful post. I do have a question about your comment above that I put in quotes. If God was trying to shelter us as we would shelter our children, as you say, would we be responsible adults if we allowed anything in that bubble that could harm our children? As a parent you know that if you allowed something in the sheltered or safe areas that might hurt them. If our children did get hurt then as a parent we would, at least, feel somewhat responsible for their getting hurt by what you allowed in their "protective, loving, sheltered bubble surrounded by happiness and sheltered from the outside world". You are the parent and you know the nature of your child is to try everything in and out of his/her protected area many times even if you tell you child not to try something. My question is simple do you really think that God was surprised by Eve and then Adam’s natural curiosity? I just think original sin maybe something more than natural curiosity winning out over strict obedience. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/5/2006 11:03:24 AM | tim,
The only thing I would take issue with is that there is much more evidence of Jesus in the shift of actions be intervals and cultures from a Darwinian survival of the fittest (eye for an eye) to a Christ's unconditional love (turn the other cheek).
Maybe a typo or something, so I'll have to assume here what I think you're saying... Are you saying that there is more evidence of Jesus' divinity and being the son of an all-powerful being as explained in the Bible, than to evolution, due to the fact that Christianity has had more an impact on people's ways over the past thousand of years change more than evolution?
If so, that doesn't make much sense, as evolution itself doesn't conflict or compete with belief. Maybe I'm getting ya wrong on that...
The process of macroevolution is what is debated between those who accept and understand Darwinism, and those who don't... and macroevolution has not had an impact on the human species or claimed to have. We aren't in a situation where there is a survival of the fittest for us -- not at all. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/5/2006 11:51:16 AM | Is this better...
The only thing I would take issue with is that there is much more evidence of Jesus’ actions on the cross seen in the shift of the actions of individuals and cultures from a Darwinian survival of the fittest (eye for an eye) to a Christ's unconditional love (turn the other cheek).
Azureorb, I'm not sure if this changes your response but I thank you for your bringing this to my attention and welcome your response once again. Your response was not very clear did I miss something? | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/5/2006 11:24:42 PM | You're absolutely right Tim. We do feel responsible if we fail in our best efforts to keep our kids safe. But the fact remains that even in spite of our best efforts sometimes circumstances still happen that cause harm to our children; and many of those times are due to the child's disobedience. And we feel terrible about our child's pain.
So let's say that is the case in the Original Sin scenario and we'll assume that God did feel bad. He let something bad happen to us and so he felt the need to fix the situation. So he came to earth in a form that we could relate to ... as a human man. He taught us how to behave and he agreed to die a slow and painful death to erase all the sin that made us intolerable for Him to look at. That was His way of fixing His negligence and/or our disobedience.
Ah but can we really call it His negligence? Probably not because the only way He could possibly keep us inside our protective bubble would be by taking away our free will and He did not want to do that. He made us free to choose. | |
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| What Does Original Sin Represent In Your Personal Faith?
Posted: 4/6/2006 3:13:17 PM | However don't you agree that He, at least, had an idea what choice His creation would eventually make when it came to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Even we as His simply creation know that our children would make the same choice, as parents, because we know our own nature is to be curious.
So is it really free will alone that created that separation or were we given free will yet created, by God, to have a curious nature that would some day get us into trouble with God?
If you again were the parent who wants to shelter His child from the outside world, would you take away that curious nature or would you make sure nothing harmful could come into that sheltered world you created for your child?
There may be another possible answer, if you will. Or perhaps like in the story of the prodigal son, our child will eventually not appreciate the sheltered world we created for him/her and decide to venture out to the unknown because of his curious nature. The child goes out and squanders what we have provided for her then realizing that he/she had it much better back at the protected world he/she returns with a much greater appreciation of what she/he once had. | |
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