| Buddhism Posted: 2/1/2008 8:01:11 AM |
Which of Gods teachings are the correct ones to follow.
God did not create Man. Man created God to control the populous for power and money.
Most western religions you have listed derive from the Old Testament, even Islam.
Throughout history most wars were religious wars. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 12:28:21 AM |
A view that blinds you to other views is hindering your potential to form your own view.
It's interesting that you see my views as being prejudice... Quite revealing. Nothing could be further then the truth. Although i see belief as the root of all violence I can see people's need to believe. It doesn't however make it the right course of action only a choice to give away your freedom to experience freely.
I can experience any and every religious belief system seeing it for exactly what it is. I don't miss out on the 'phenomena' because of a lack of belief. In fact I enjoy some of these things but with an open eye and a clinched wallet.
If you are following or basing your beliefs on any known system you are not forging your own path, lol... Even if you are taking bits and pieces from each they are still systems built on faulty thinking, which you are picking what is right. Ummm think about that for a second. Sounds like Bernard's (from black books) accounting system to me. Spirituality and religion are businesses. If you don't think so do a little research. If you don't think they play on our very hopes and fears, do a little research. If you think the phenomena is real and only specific to the belief in something do a little research. It won't take you long to sort out what is real and what is something that you are led to believe is real based on something that is true without any belief at all. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 3:20:32 AM | It's interesting that you see my views as being prejudice... Quite revealing.
I never said your views were prejudiced, I said the only problems we could have with difference of opinion would be our own prejudices... It was in response to this post--
Religion, spirituality isn't something to be taken lightly They are all dangerous because we give up free will by believing in something and often are open to many things because of that belief. --which I disagree with... I don't think it's prejudiced, I just don't agree that's all... You don't need to lose your free will by believing in something... That's exercising your free will... My response to your comment above was
disagree... I would say that taking this stuff too seriously is dangerous... There are many ways to look at it and the only thing that's dangerous about that is our prejudices.
If you are following or basing your beliefs on any known system you are not forging your own path, lol... Even if you are taking bits and pieces from each they are still systems built on faulty thinking, which you are picking what is right. Ummm think about that for a second.
Ummm, no... What I did was take from them what made sense to how I percieve the world... I have found many that I can relate to but none that have captured my perception perfectly... Faulty thinking huh? Is that because you don't agree? Do you have the answers? Even if you shared the same belief as me, it would be different in some respects... That's just the nature of being unique... If everyone who disagreed with you had faulty thinking, you must be pretty darned um... Unfaulty?
Spirituality and religion are businesses. If you don't think so do a little research.
Spirituality spawned religion and isn't the same as religion... As for business, everyone has to live but not all religions ask you to pay anything other than your time... You think the Buddha sought enlightenment in order to dupe us? Why don't you do the research.
If you think the phenomena is real and only specific to the belief in something do a little research.
This thread's about Buddhism... What phenomena are you referring to and which post said anything about having to believe in Buddhism in order for said phenomena to be? You're not making any sense to me.
If you don't think they play on our very hopes and fears, do a little research.
Some religions do this yes... Those are the ones I usually speak out against... I dispise fear mongering.
It won't take you long to sort out what is real and what is something that you are led to believe is real based on something that is true without any belief at all.
That's the name of the game isn't it? I don't need faith in my views because my views are subject to growth.
Not really sure where you're going with this or how it relates to Buddhism... Care to enlighten me? | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 6:15:43 AM | Clearly your not thinking things through...
Ummm, no... What I did was take from them what made sense to how I percieve the world... I have found many that I can relate to but none that have captured my perception perfectly... Faulty thinking huh? Is that because you don't agree? Do you have the answers? Even if you shared the same belief as me, it would be different in some respects... That's just the nature of being unique... If everyone who disagreed with you had faulty thinking, you must be pretty darned um... Unfaulty?
If you are only picking bits of belief systems then clearly there is something faulty. It would be different then believing the sun comes up every day simply because it happens. But what most people are doing is reading up on different belief systems and building a so called spiritual life. I mean come on people are not Buddhist in the west... They just meditate and eat musli because it is trendy whilst collecting a set of buzz words that make them sound like something they are not.
I don't know why you take offence to the way i think and it really it doesn't matter but it doesn't change the fact that your beliefs are built from faulty systems. If they are so great then why aren't you following them? I don't have to be prejudiced to be a keen observer of human nature. I don't need you or anyone to agree with me I am merely stating my point of view on a subject because that is what the forums are about. You give your point of view and i give mine.
Pointing out that I have moved from the topic of Buddhism is skirting the issue of belief. Buddhism is also a belief just as any other belief. In my original post on Buddhism i mentioned there are dangers of the belief and gave a link. It is obvious you didn't read the link because if you did you would of know how it is all related. I've also in the past shared some of my experiences with Religion and spirituality. If you don't mind it would be better to stay on topic instead of diverting it off topic and then blaming me for being off topic for answering you. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 12:57:22 PM | Not sure why I bother responding to prejudiced posts, but what the hell(And yes, claiming views are faulty without really investigating them is prejudiced... You did it to yourself this time)
If you are only picking bits of belief systems then clearly there is something faulty.
Not at all... Everyone has different perspectives on this stuff... I plan to share as many insights as possible.
But what most people are doing is reading up on different belief systems and building a so called spiritual life. I mean come on people are not Buddhist in the west... They just meditate and eat musli because it is trendy whilst collecting a set of buzz words that make them sound like something they are not.
Complete and utter nonsense... You are ignorant to things you try to speak of... Why are you on this thread? To belittle Buddhism? You may want to find out more before you make yourself sound any more self rightous and insulting.
I don't know why you take offence to the way i think and it really it doesn't matter but it doesn't change the fact that your beliefs are built from faulty systems.
I'm not taking offense to how you think, it's how you present it with such unfounded arrogance that makes me laugh! Faulty systems? You make it clear you have nothing of substance to add here as you have no idea what you're talking about... Answer me this;
How is Buddhism faulty?
I don't need you or anyone to agree with me I am merely stating my point of view on a subject because that is what the forums are about. You give your point of view and i give mine.
I don't either, but when your point of view is to belittle someone elses point of view, you can expect someone to call you on it... Pretty simple really.
Pointing out that I have moved from the topic of Buddhism is skirting the issue of belief. Buddhism is also a belief just as any other belief. In my original post on Buddhism i mentioned there are dangers of the belief and gave a link. It is obvious you didn't read the link because if you did you would of know how it is all related.
I read the link... I just don't happen to agree... You gave what you think are dangers for following any religion or spiritual path... I said why I disagree... That's what we're here for, right? Mind you, I don't follow any set religion or path but my own.
If you don't mind it would be better to stay on topic instead of diverting it off topic and then blaming me for being off topic for answering you.
The topic is how Buddhism has affected lives and was turned somehow to whether or not Buddhism is compatable with a monotheistic belief system... It is and it has been said why... I understand your point of view, I just don't think it has any bearing on how folks decide to form a belief... Now all you're doing is being insulting.
What do you expect to happen when you belittle someones beliefs with no good reason?
Do you have anything real to add or would you like to just put down others ways some more? | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 1:40:01 PM |
Do you have anything real to add or would you like to just put down others ways some more?
Right then lets talk about the faulty belief system then. Who wrote it down? Buddha? I think not. Just like Christianity Buddhism was written down long after Buddha was dead and gone, Imagine that already starting to sound familiar to other religions. Also like other Religions Buddhism isn't new or original at all it borrows its ideas and beliefs from other belief systems just like... You got it Christianity, and this is before we even get to its beliefs.
The only ignorance is people who think that belief is in some way freedom... Buddhism in the west is not buddhism. The community of buddhism of the east is completely missing in the west making it a solitary new age mysticism version of buddhism. Buddhism is not suited to specialized cultures where life, work, pleasure, relationships, entertainment, spirituality, are all in different boxes like the west. Well that is unless you are in the west and you compartmentalize buddhism as well, which is the case.
In Buddhism, to transcendental reality is nirvana, complete abolition of the self. What you think your going to do this on the weekend? And even if you try the very idea it leads to a dangerous path that i was talking about earlier that I myself went down. I became more detached from the world and unable to relate to anyone even those so called spiritual teachers that got me started on the path. They seemed to have only gotten so far and didn't get any further.
I'm not saying that you can't believe in it but know that the belief system was not designed for the west nor is the Buddhism of the west even remotely the Buddhism of the east. Its just a bunch of wana be's spouting of little catch phrases trying to look enlightened. You may think i don't know but Just because i think the way i do now doesn't mean i always did. I've been a Christian and followed many spiritual paths. All of which are bunk in my opinion. They are nothing more then a business designed to exploit people of their money. I tried to quietly point out the dangers however you've pushed the issue. You have no reliable source that the stories of the Buddha are even true or anything written from him at all. Just words of others that want you to believe. Which of course you and many others are willing to do...
There is plenty of back and forth that could go on. I merely wanted to share a link and let people make up their own minds however you've made this personal for some reason... | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 4:33:55 PM | The Buddha communicated in a way that was appropriate for a given audience; the message was always the same, but the terminology might have been different depending on the circumstances. Any “westernization” of Buddhism is simply to appeal more to the Western “scientific” mind; the message is still the same. (See “The Tao of Physics”, for example).
Buddhism stresses the interrelationship of all things; any “detachment” or isolation from reality is at odds with a central theme of always being fully present in the here and now. The “abolition of the self” is not nihilism; it simply means to let go of an ego-centered existence that constantly pits “my” needs and desires against that of some “other”.
Buddhism is a non-theist “religion” based on reason; one is not expected to accept anything on faith. “Enlightenment” is being able to discover for oneself the Truth about reality and being fully in it; it has nothing to do with “detaching”.
You don’t just “read” about Buddhism; you think about it.
And like any other “religion”, there are lots of false prophets. Even the Buddha went through many teachers and life styles before he found his path. In the end, you need to be your own authority (which means reading more that one or two books).
And as any good Buddhist teacher will tell you: “… if you don’t like want I’m saying, then that’s alright too …”. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 7:01:31 PM |
And as any good Buddhist teacher will tell you: “… if you don’t like want I’m saying, then that’s alright too …”.
Right On!
I Belive he was quoted as saying
"Question Everything! Even this statement!" | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 7:36:13 PM |
Buddhism in the west is not buddhism. The community of buddhism of the east is completely missing in the west making it a solitary new age mysticism version of buddhism.
this is patently untrue.... there are many thriving communities of buddhism here in North America ~ Gampo Abbey in Nova Scotia (are you familiar with Pema Chodron?) immediately comes to mind....
I am in no way a new age mystic buddhist.... I came to the middle path as a result of spending time in southeast Asia, where especially in Thailand, buddhism permeates all aspects of daily life.... lay buddhists there do not spend inordinate amounts of time in sitting meditation because they know that there are many ways to practice mindfulness throughout their day....
personally, I'm not much interested in lineages, traditions or transmissions.... in my opinion we sometimes get too attached to the trappings rather than the message.... likewise, I think it is ludicrous to believe that zen meditation is compromised if one cannot sustain the rigid posture required (what message does this send to practitioners with physical disabilities?).... growing numbers of North American buddhists are practicing "engaged" buddhism ~ moving our practices of compassion and loving-kindness out into the communities where we live ~ working in hospices, food banks, prisons and the like to care for the poor, the disenfranchised, the lonely and the fearful....
I also feel that you misunderstand the concepts of attachment and detachment.... one of the most profound buddhist philosophies that changed my life in a huge way is the idea that the source of all unhappiness is desire.... when one examines their unhappiness and discontent ~ sure enough, at the very nucleus of the pain is a desire of some sort......the key to surmounting this is to accept the desire for what it is ~ a wish that, for whatever reason, cannot be fulfilled at the present moment.... and then to move away from the desire.... let it go.... try to work at becoming less attached to the desire.... to view it more clinically and less passionately.... and this is one reason why a buddhist teacher will so often answer "Why so attached?" to the questions of their students ~ it is a reduction to simplicity that cuts through the verbosity of the grandiose....
by the way, I read the link you provided in its entirety.... while I did agree with some of the thoughts contained therein, there were far more that I disagreed with.... I also feel that the "cautions" warned of in this link are rather disingenuous and self serving considering that the author clearly has his own agenda to advance.... | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 8:52:45 PM | | The Buddhism of the west need not reflect the Buddism of the east. A post-industrial society will deal with the truths revealed through self-introspection differently then would a tribal society. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/2/2008 9:04:09 PM | There is plenty of back and forth that could go on. I merely wanted to share a link and let people make up their own minds however you've made this personal for some reason...
The link is appreciated (even tho I disagree with it) but the fact that you called Buddhism faulty without knowing too much about it isn't.
Right then lets talk about the faulty belief system then. Who wrote it down? Buddha? I think not. Just like Christianity Buddhism was written down long after Buddha was dead and gone, Imagine that already starting to sound familiar to other religions. Also like other Religions Buddhism isn't new or original at all it borrows its ideas and beliefs from other belief systems just like... You got it Christianity, and this is before we even get to its beliefs.
Actually, alot of the teachings were written down while he was still alive... What teachings did the Buddha lift from Christianity? Like I said, it came from Hinduism... Hinduism is older than Christianity... Nice try tho... Any more bogus information for us my friend?
Buddhism changes no matter where it is brought... There are so many different ways in the east and now there's many here in the west... Buddha taught to look within yourself and only take from his teachings what makes sense to you... Buddhism itself came from the Hindu way of thinking (Siddhartha was Hindu before he sat under the tree) so change is natural... Who is to say which one is real? If the Buddha spoke true, they all are... Thich Nhat Hanh says Buddhism is thriving in the west... Surely he is an authority on what and what doesn't pass for Buddhism.
The Buddha communicated in a way that was appropriate for a given audience; the message was always the same, but the terminology might have been different depending on the circumstances. Any “westernization” of Buddhism is simply to appeal more to the Western “scientific” mind; the message is still the same. (See “The Tao of Physics”, for example).
"The Tao of Physics" is one of my all time favorites! I would also recommend "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav is along the same lines and is just an amazing read!
Right On!
I Belive he was quoted as saying
"Question Everything! Even this statement!"
Yes sir!
I am in no way a new age mystic buddhist.... I came to the middle path as a result of spending time in southeast Asia, where especially in Thailand, buddhism permeates all aspects of daily life.... lay buddhists there do not spend inordinate amounts of time in sitting meditation because they know that there are many ways to practice mindfulness throughout their day....
It's very nice to have your input.. I haven't been to the east but I feel the same way... I came to the middle path by meditating on and studying duality.
The Buddhism of the west need not reflect the Buddism of the east. A post-industrial society will deal with the truths revealed through self-introspection differently then would a tribal society.
Thank you! | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 1:11:31 AM | stonestongue, You seem to want to get into right and wrongs... I do not. My experience with religions and Buddhism included were not positive at all. You can't take that away from me or discredit it because you believe in a certain way. I don't really care what bee you have under your bonnet or what you want to prove.
Buddhism isn't for everyone. It certainly isn't helping you in the way you are dealing with me. Religions and organized spiritual paths are not forms of freedom's any idiot can see that freedom of choice is different then what i'm talking about. Of course you have the freedom of choice to give your freedom away by believing in something that is a fact but it isn't freedom. Any time a mind is structured to believe in any way the mind is not free, even if your religion teaches you to think it structures your mind to think the way they teach.
Argue all you want it won't change the facts. You can try and trap me with what ever you want but in the end you are only doing yourself a disservice by fighting about a belief that means nothing in the end. Quite frankly i'm happy there are some religions etc... because some people do need controlling, changing, etc... If it wasn't for the outside influences they would not be nice people at all. That is painfully observable in any religion because many are still behaving badly under the guise and protection of their religions (Buddhism) included.
Its pretty interesting that people will argue over some dead fella that no one even 'really' knows when he was alive or wrote a single thing for us to know his own words. Why are you so attached? Nothing is perfect and can be picked apart, you know this and so does everyone else. I had my opinion that was based on personal experience. What makes your personal experience any more meaningful or deeper then mine? Your being no better then a Christian that says i wasn't sincere enough in my search for their god. I searched and found nothing but pain and suffering caused by the practices i was taught. That is a fact, and the link i sent actually was surprisingly close to my experience. I have no hidden agenda (to be fair) nor am i selling anything. Just sharing an experience that is different then your own.
If you would like I can go and dig up dirt on Buddhism to support my case 'for you' and i guarantee it won't be hard to do so. I don't see it as necessary however. I didn't ask you to agree with me or jump in my bandwagon. Everyone has a right to share their experiences, thoughts and opinions without being attacked by people like you,
thanks very much. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 2:47:52 AM | You seem to want to get into right and wrongs... I do not. My experience with religions and Buddhism included were not positive at all. You can't take that away from me or discredit it because you believe in a certain way. I don't really care what bee you have under your bonnet or what you want to prove.
Not sure what you're talking about... You came on to say religion and spirituality are bad but had no real persuasive argument... That isn't my fault... I'm sorry you had bad experiences but just because it didn't work for you doesn't make it faulty.
Argue all you want it won't change the facts. You can try and trap me with what ever you want but in the end you are only doing yourself a disservice by fighting about a belief that means nothing in the end.
Sorry but you have offered your opinion and that's great but I don't recall any facts, just anothers opinion via some link... I'm not fighting, I'm simply defending my beliefs against your insults.
If it wasn't for the outside influences they would not be nice people at all. That is painfully observable in any religion because many are still behaving badly under the guise and protection of their religions (Buddhism) included.
You are generalizing again.
I have no hidden agenda (to be fair) nor am i selling anything. Just sharing an experience that is different then your own.
I don't have a problem with that... But if you think I won't defend something I believe in because you had a bad experience, think again.
If you would like I can go and dig up dirt on Buddhism to support my case 'for you' and i guarantee it won't be hard to do so. I don't see it as necessary however. I didn't ask you to agree with me or jump in my bandwagon. Everyone has a right to share their experiences, thoughts and opinions without being attacked by people like you,
Dig up your dirt and try to answer the question I posed in response to the lie you made, I'll put the question underneath this paragraph in case you forgot... I will be able to debate it... I'm not trying to attack you, I just debated your stance is all.
This was you;
Buddhism isn't new or original at all it borrows its ideas and beliefs from other belief systems just like... You got it Christianity, and this is before we even get to its beliefs.
This was me.
What teachings did the Buddha lift from Christianity?
It was you who started with the insults... If my first response came across as harsh, I appologize as it wasn't meant to.
But I still think you should research the topic before putting it down by lumping it in with other types of ways.
Thank you very much.
And for the record, this;
A view that blinds you to other views is hindering your potential to form your own view. was not implying your view is prejudiced... It applies to any view that refuses to take other views into account... Could this be the misunderstanding which made you want to start putting people down?
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 3:16:24 AM | Your skirting the issue. I was very clear that belief itself is a way of giving our freedom away. You seem to keep quoting other things and trying to take it in a different direction. Prove to me that belief isn't taking your freedom away? The moment you choose to believe anything you've limited your freedom. There is no getting around that.
When you have a whole belief system such as Buddhism or any other you have given up your freedom to live as a human being and have programmed your mind to react in predefined ways to things. And of course i understand you want to defend that. Without belief your life would potentially fall apart. The dangers are real, maybe not to everyone because they simply don't sincerely search and follow the belief systems giving them the full benefit without doubt. Like most things people just half do, there for feel no impact and wonder why others see a problem.
I have researched enough to know for myself. what is real or not for myself. When I see and hear others talking like things are a truth I have to say something because it is a lie. There is no truth we can blindly follow. Saying so is misleading people, especially those who are sincerely looking for answers in this world. Buddhism is no more then a belief system that cannot be proven like Christianity or any other belief system. Nothing more nothing less.
I myself agree with some of what Buddhism teaches. I also agree with some of what Christianity teaches. That doesn't make their belief systems something to follow. It just means there are some similarities in what I believe and they believe. We all believe in something, we could not function without belief. You see and this is where the problem lies, One belief leads to another belief and so on and so on. That's how memetics works. One meme builds or piggybacks another one till we no longer can see the world as it is. I think Buddhism actually talks along these lines. And that's the secret of good belief systems they will take something fundamental to all humans and build something that isn't true on it. If they started out with something completely untrue without finding a common ground in humanity the belief would not grow.
Study religions from the aspect of fundamentals of the human condition and you will begin to see just how insidious religion is and how it plays on all of us, Buddhism included. One good thing about Buddhism i can say is that it asks us to question everything even Buddhism perhaps if you started doing that you'd begin to see a different perspective, who knows? | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 3:28:19 AM | Now we are getting somewhere.
Your skirting the issue. I was very clear that belief itself is a way of giving our freedom away. You seem to keep quoting other things and trying to take it in a different direction. Prove to me that belief isn't taking your freedom away? The moment you choose to believe anything you've limited your freedom. There is no getting around that.
My freedom is not given away because I choose to believe some things... In fact it is exercising my freedom... I've already made that point tho... Remember? I said my beliefs are subject to growth... How is that limiting?
I have researched enough to know for myself. what is real or not for myself.
That's the key... You have no right to tell people that because it didn't work for you, it won't work for them.. Then it is you who are trying to limit someone elses freedom.
There is no truth we can blindly follow. Saying so is misleading people, especially those who are sincerely looking for answers in this world. Buddhism is no more then a belief system that cannot be proven like Christianity or any other belief system. Nothing more nothing less.
I still don't think you've done research... Buddhism doesn't contradict scientific findings and can't really be lumped in with faith religions.
Study religions from the aspect of fundamentals of the human condition and you will begin to see just how insidious religion is and how it plays on all of us, Buddhism included.
I have... But then Buddhism isn't really a religion... You are still offering no proof, just opinion.
Again I ask what did Buddhism lift from Christianity and how is it insidious? (I'm just talking odf Buddhism here)
One good thing about Buddhism i can say is that it asks us to question everything even Buddhism perhaps if you started doing that you'd begin to see a different perspective, who knows?
You are only reading what you want to out of my posts... I do question everything including Buddhism... Why do you think I have no label?
Are you going to answer the questions pertaining to your posts or do you admit to not being as knowledgable on the subject as you claim?
Sorry, you brought the accusations... Now back them up! | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 4:05:44 AM | I don't know why you think i'm not knowledgeable... Ask me what you will and i will tell you. You don't know exactly when the Buddha lived no one does that's a fact, there are no writings from him that's a fact. Buddhism isn't its own belief system just like most other religions were built on others. Its not perfect and like any other belief system are not truths. Sure i'm not as knowledgeable as someone who has studied all their lives but i've studied for a long time and can spout off facts just like anyone else. However facts are not the whole picture when it comes to religions and Buddhism is still considered a religion by some.
I hate having to quote other people but for your sake i will quote Carl Rogers.
Experience is, for me, the highest authority. The touchstone of validity is my own experience. No other person's ideas, and none of my own ideas, are as authoritative as my experience. It is to experience that I must return again and again, to discover a closer approximation to truth as it is in the process of becoming in me. Neither the Bible nor the prophets -- neither Freud nor research --neither the revelations of God nor man -- can take precedence over my own direct experience. My experience is not authoritative because it is infallible. It is the basis of authority because it can always be checked in new primary ways. In this way its frequent error or fallibility is always open to correction. from On Becoming a Person Carl Rogers
You may find facts but you can only have a limited relationship with a fact and in the end it means nothing. I never said Buddhism lifted anything From Christianity. I said there are similarities in trying to verify them as truths because like any successful religion they start out with some simple commonly known fundamentals of human nature and then add what ever they believe to that.
You have no right to tell people that because it didn't work for you, it won't work for them.. Then it is you who are trying to limit someone elses freedom. I'm not so sure who you think you are but i have every right to tell people what i think and believe just as you do. The things i believe do not cost people there hard earned money, or prey on their sense of humanity for my own gain like religions. I am quite open about my belief that all religions should be banned. I don't deny that at all. I have good reason to believe the way i do just as you believe the way you do.
This is a Religion forum not limited to the belief in a religion but also questioning its validity or need. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 5:29:12 AM | | Don`t know that much about it, I study srila prabhupad`s scriptures , (hare krishna), but if there were more Buddhists in the world, we would have no worries, such a lovely way to be. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 10:17:18 AM |
I am quite open about my belief that all religions should be banned. I don't deny that at all. Thats quite a scary way of thinking imo - and an oppressive viewpoint. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 10:45:24 AM |
Thats quite a scary way of thinking imo - and an oppressive viewpoint. I would of thought the same thing at one time to. In fact I did. My uncle used to smuggle bibles into Russia. I used to see him as a champion for freedom of faith, until i really understood how belief worked on psychological level. Then i became painfully aware of how parasitical beliefs such as religions actually strip our freedom to 'be', believers and non believers alike.
We are learning that belief is actually spontaneous and involuntary. Wikipedea says:Some people think that one can choose to investigate and research a matter but that one can not choose to believe. On the other hand, most people have the impression that in some cases people don't believe things because they don't want to believe, especially about a matter in which they are emotionally involved.
In the foreseeable future I can see a greater amount of information on this that will infuriate people and there will be a call for something to be done about Religion not because we are oppressive but because of the oppressive beliefs that we are being programmed with without any ability to thwart them off. It will become one of the biggest human rights problem to deal with. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 1:40:26 PM | I don't know why you think i'm not knowledgeable... Ask me what you will and i will tell you.
So, when are you going to tell me? I've asked a few times now for you to back up your claims... You still haven't done so.
Buddhism isn't its own belief system just like most other religions were built on others.
I've already said how it started... Although it uses some of the same terminology and came from Hindu thought, it isn't the same at all... Hinduism believes in gods that control the fate of men and Buddhism taught that once you are awakened, you are no longer affected by the gods and are in fact, above them... That was unique at the time.
So... Are you going to tell us what Buddhism lifted from Christianity? You've done a pi$$ poor job so far.
You may find facts but you can only have a limited relationship with a fact and in the end it means nothing. I never said Buddhism lifted anything From Christianity.
Means nothing to whom? You didn't say this then?
Buddhism isn't new or original at all it borrows its ideas and beliefs from other belief systems just like... You got it Christianity, and this is before we even get to its beliefs.
I coulda swore that was you! So are you at least going to say how it is insiduous? How does it spread harm?
I like and agree with the Carl Rogers quote, however that's pretty much what the Buddha taught... Whos point are you trying to prove again?
I said there are similarities in trying to verify them as truths because like any successful religion they start out with some simple commonly known fundamentals of human nature and then add what ever they believe to that.
Again, that's because everyones take is different... What is your point again? What's so harmful about people deciding to add their own perspective to the big picture? I really don't understand your bitterness.
I'm not so sure who you think you are but i have every right to tell people what i think and believe just as you do.
Umm... Are you on crack? Can you show me where I told people what they should believe? Can you back up anything? I'm not saying you have no right to tell people what you believe but when you put down Buddhism without knowing the fundamentals(they are right here in this thread if you want to check... See Montreal Guys post along with others)... I have every right to blow through the holes in your argument, thanx.
The things i believe do not cost people there hard earned money, or prey on their sense of humanity for my own gain like religions.
Neither do the things I believe... If I were to give money to Buddhists you can be sure it would go to feeding hungry children.
I am quite open about my belief that all religions should be banned.
Do you see your foot in your mouth there? That is telling folks what you think they should believe... You are doing what you think people shouldn't do! Pretty funny, really!
This is a Religion forum not limited to the belief in a religion but also questioning its validity or need.
Granted, but so far all you've done is say why you don't need it. (I mean, really who does?) But you have fallen very short on proving it's invalid... Nobody is pushing Buddhism on you... You know that right?
You want to ban certain ways of thought? You going to burn down the libraries? You want to ban ideas? You seem to be a want to be dictator.
Good luck with that one. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 2:16:11 PM | To lead an ethical live, Buddhism says we should avoid killing, stealing, and lying … among other non-virtuous actions.
The above actions apply to most other religions.
It has been stated that: “… all religions should be banned … “; because: “… parasitical beliefs such as religions actually strip our freedom to 'be' …”.
While specifically seeking to ban all regions in particular, the idea also seems to be to “ban” ALL “beliefs” in general.
I would question and resist anyone’s (“belief” in the) right to exercise the “freedom” to kill wantonly. (Note that I stress “wantonly”; Buddhism does not preclude “killing” in self-defence)
Problems arise when these types of “beliefs” are taken only literally and not applied within the proper context.
“Lying” is to be avoided, but if it meant deceiving the Nazis about the whereabouts of a Jewish family, then in this case, lying is “right living”.
Some philosophers / scientists have suggested that out “moral code” is part of our genetic code and society could not have evolved to the extent it has without it. The “belief” that one should lead an ethical life is possibly ingrained, and the contrary “belief” that one should be able to exercise their “freedoms” at all costs is the source of a lot of misery. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 2:29:00 PM |
“Lying” is to be avoided, but if it meant deceiving the Nazis about the whereabouts of a Jewish family, then in this case, lying is “right living”.
I like that... It nails it... Whether it goes against virtue, the choice which causes the least amount of suffering is the ethical choice.
I think that should be able to go without saying whether we're discussing Buddhism or not.
Wunderkindt, you put that post wonderfully. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 2:53:14 PM | Wunderkindt, You bring up some really good points that make sense under the paradigm of 'belief' being a real thing. I've tried to bring up the fact that we have an inbred sense of right and wrong within us but many want proof. I'd like to know about the studies you talk about that a moral code is actually imprinted in our dna, it only supports my understanding of how our relationship to the world really works. I agree with our innate knowing of right and wrong and think that religion pretends to mimic these things to draw people into their fold.
While specifically seeking to ban all regions in particular, the idea also seems to be to “ban” ALL “beliefs” in general.
This is also an interesting statement. One that I think will come about. There is a growing theory called Eliminative materialism.
From Wikipedia: "Eliminative materialism (also called eliminativism) is a materialist position in the philosophy of mind. Its primary claim is that people's common-sense understanding of the mind (or folk psychology) is false and that certain classes of mental states that most people believe in do not exist. Some eliminativists claim that no neural correlates will be found for many everyday psychological concepts, such as belief and desire, and that behaviour and experience can be explained adequately only on the biological level. Other versions entail the non-existence of conscious mental states such as pains and visual perceptions."
Further some scientists/philosophers are beginning to understand how immediate and involuntary belief really is and how we have to actually counter the process to not believe. You may believe you are exercising your free will to believe but there is growing evidence that you are programmed to believe that you are exercising your free will by believing. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 3:18:51 PM | You may believe you are exercising your free will to believe but there is growing evidence that you are programmed to believe that you are exercising your free will by believing.
This may be totally off topic, but I can't resist.
What evidence are you referring to? Programmed by what? God?
They have claims just like everybody does, but evidence? I'd like to see that.
How would you reverse the process to not believe? You would have to believe in what you were doing... You would turn the populace into mindless drones who can't tie their own shoes... They would have to believe they had feet.
I'm not trying to sound obtuse, I just don't see the logic.
If you haven't made a thread in this regard by tomorrow, I'll start one for you.
I'll call it Eliminative materialism so you are aware of it. | |
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| Buddhism Posted: 2/3/2008 5:42:55 PM | I have never been to Japan, but I “believe” it exists.
I do not believe Elvis is alive, contrary to what others may think.
I “choose” to believe in Japan, but not that Elvis is alive.
I trust in these beliefs because they are “reasonable”, even though I have no first-hand experience.
There’s no denying that we feel emotions. From an early age, we are also able to empathize with the feelings of others (unless we are sociopaths).
Most people prefer not to suffer, and because we can empathize, we can see how others might suffer and would prefer not to do so either. When we see others suffer, we can choose to feel compassion. The fossil record has shown that even in the dawn of man, when life was brutish and short, the handicapped were cared for.
Empathy and compassion would then appear to be natural conditions for humans.
Being lied to or cheated are some of things that we dislike happening to ourselves; conversely, since we can empathize, it seem logical to assume that others don’t want to be treated like that either, so we act accordingly.
We can choose to ignore “right living”, but cause and effect means your home and work life will eventually suffer; you can lie and cheat your wife or clients only for so long.
The fact that “religion” codifies some of these “beliefs” does not make religion redundant. Even though we are all innately “good”, we are not always awake to that fact, and perhaps need to be reminded on occasion. | |
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