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 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 26
The Demonization of SexPage 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Tim
I think the Christian view overall is not to take the Matthew passages literally. Otherwise, there will be a lot of plucking going on. Looking at a woman with lust in your heart...that is a difficult one and I think a bit counter productive. If I tell you to get purple elephants out of your mind ...what are you going to think about?
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 27
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/14/2006 7:58:54 AM

No one likes to feel like a piece of meat for someone else's pleasure when one is not in the mood to please. I'm sure that back in the old fashioned days women had no choice in the matter and no laws to protect her rights. Is that the old fashioned ways some really want to go back to?


I'm not sure about tossing a blanket over all of the "old fashioned days" or ancient ways that all cultures or spiritual paths denied laws to women to protect their rights.

Only as an example (but not exclusively) my understanding of the Asatru faiths has afforded women legal protection of their property and being, this during pre-Christian dominated times and including today.

And, ditto re: your statement that no one likes to feel like a piece of meat.
 Blueberry
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 28
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/14/2006 3:20:04 PM

what kind of responses do you expect to get here?
I don't understand the question, Tim. Responses from you or from everyone?
I'm not looking for you to give me pat answers just to make me "happy" and agree. Nor am I striving to make you love me. My only real request of you is what I expect of myself: honesty, respect, and directness - no games. You and I have vastly different faiths, and we're probably not going to come to an agreement any time soon. Such is life. We will have to agree to disagree in those instances. But because we disagree on such fundimental things as the authority of the Bible, it is nearly impossible to debate many of the issues you present without running in circles. So as I've said several times now, I won't rehash it if we've discussed it already.


Blueberry you don't have to respond to my questions for me to unconditionally love and respect you
Tim you've said this kind of thing to be before. I have a pretty good idea what you mean by "unconditinally", but what is your definition of love in this context? Can you please explain? Thanks.

Oh, and if you would prefer to email me your response instead of posting, I have no problem with that. We're getting kinda off topic! lol
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 29
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/14/2006 5:18:22 PM

Asatru faiths has afforded women legal protection of their property and being


Interesting faith tell me more, Breaca. Who are these folks, What do they believe and where are they to be found today.
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 30
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/15/2006 9:59:25 AM

Interesting faith tell me more, Breaca. Who are these folks, What do they believe and where are they to be found today.


Hi Tim,

The subject heading of this thread is Demonization of Sex. So, I don’t think this is the place to get into a discussion about Asatru or any other faith practice. However, I think it would be wonderful if you started a thread on different faiths and explanation of their beliefs. You could start with yours. I’d be very interested in reading such a thread and possibly participating.

As I questioned your blanket generalization about the plight of women in all ancient cultures I will provide some information that I have learned of the ancient Norse/Germanic peoples (my reference to Asatru) regarding women in the ancient world:

- Social position was much higher than others elsewhere.
- A wife carried a dagger, representing freedom and carried keys to the house, representing her authority.
- The husband gave her his wages as she managed the finances and she received the first food at mealtime.
- Women could be, besides housewives, wisewomen who traveled curing and counseling people and warriors to defend their land against enemies (indicating choice).
- Women had the authority to make decisions on abortion (indicating choice).

Now, note has to be taken here in that I am not an authority on Asatru. I have friends who are and I gain my understanding mainly through them as well as through reading up on the subject. You can probably find people who practice modern Asatru in any city. Perhaps doing an Internet search would be a start for groups in your area.

As I suggest above, if you're interested in the more spiritual practices of different faiths, especially women’s roles within, you should start a thread. I'm hoping you do, especially as you seem a most curious sort and having that information might answer some of your questions... and mine!

To keep this post on topic -
Another difference I noted within ancient Asatru is that the human body and sexuality were celebrated through expressions of dance (example) which horrified missionaries.

Does anyone think that there has been any effects on today’s society because of a sense that sex and sexuality are a sin?

I do. I believe that withholding information regarding sexuality, as practiced by many male-dominated religions - ancient and current, has brewed an ignorance of natural sexual experience. That expression of sexual feelings has become skewed and perverted for many people. They simply do not know how to react to this stimulus in a healthy functioning manner.

My sense is that this ignorance, regarding sexual expression, is being played out within many churches today, where leaders of those churches are being brought to Court to answer sexual abuse charges. And thank goodness that the Courts today have begun to drop the ideology that those of “the cloth” are without sin… so that their word is not taken as gospel and therefore undermining the truth as experienced by victims who are both male and female.
 taurus516
Joined: 11/3/2004
Msg: 31
view profile
History
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/15/2006 10:43:43 AM
Throughout history there has always been a religious/philiosphical point of view that believed the spirit to be at war with the body.Spirituality being achieved through denial of bodily pleasure.Fasting,sexual abstinence,celibacy,the wearing of uncomfortable clothing and sleep deprivation.At some periods of time,body lice were viewed as being a sign that one was looked upon favorably by God.These beliefs pre date Christianity.

It's a control method.You find something that everyone has a craving for, call it a sin and advertize yourself to be the only salvation from this "sin".It's worked for a long time.
 robert_paulson
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 32
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/15/2006 11:37:53 AM
There is no question that there was/is a considerable negative perception of sexuality in parts of Christianity.

The monastic orders of the Catholic and Orthodox faiths in particular represented a strong statement in favour of celibacy.

The Cathar heritics in southern France were very anti sex.

Unless I am mistaken the "Shaker" movement practiced celibacy even withing marriage.

Various Puritain movements within Protestantisim, and conservative Catholocisim were also pretty restrictive on sex even within marriage.

I like the explanation that Taurus 516 made about it being part of a more broad theme about the denial of the flesh...good point.
 adreena
Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 33
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/15/2006 12:07:04 PM
I think there was a attempt to control sex, religiously, because it is such a force that drives and shapes a lot of elements of our lives.
hmmmm
Demonizing sex, only makes it more alluring. Ppls curiousity, increases as to why is has such negative connitations. But at the same time I don't like it when it is always in your face.
It gets irritating and annoying.
 .Tiamat.
Joined: 1/12/2006
Msg: 34
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/15/2006 4:48:02 PM
I think there was a attempt to control sex, religiously, because it is such a force that drives and shapes a lot of elements of our lives.


Absolutely. I'd like to go one step further on this thought... the demonization of sex is really little to do with sex itself. It's about power, and the misuse of power.

*ahem* (soapbox)
If we're here to learn and grow and transform (and no matter what your belief system, I don't think too many people will really argue with that), then any force in our lives that can give us a direct hookup to the Divine is what we need in order to effect that transformation. That timeless state of bliss that we are capable of attaining with, say, a really great orgasm, is our body's way of teaching us to reach for that connection with that cosmic power, whatever name you choose to give it.

Imagine a world full of people living in power... not the illusion of power, which is just 'power over', but really in POWER - fully connected to the cosmos, able to influence reality on a quantum level simply by adjusting their wavelength.

... I have to pause there for a minute and just contemplate that :)

If we were all THAT connected, there would be no question of anyone enacting the kinds of abuse of power that is endemic inour world today. It would be too painful, there would be too much awareness of how much we were hurting ourselves by even contemplating such an action. This would literally be an evolutionary step forward for humanity, and if that kind of an evolutionary step were to occur on a sudden, mass scale (the idea of critical mass), we might suddenly find ourselves becoming the living solution to our global problems.

So if sex is our lesson in the physical to show us the resonance of a 'divine' frequency, then a demonization of that is all about preventing us from attaining that kind of power. One might almost think there was some kind of inimical force that actively seeks to prevent us from doing so. (Let's call it... I know, Evil!)

Ok, so 'Evil', (negativity, pathology, whatever, I like calling it Evil, it's simple and to the point) feeds on power... Once Evil has taken up residence in an organized religion, or government, or in any individual in a position where they have the potential to control another, there is this scarcity/hoarding mentality that kicks in. For some reason, there has been a lot of misinformation about the fact that we have the right to connect to universal power, which is unlimited and undiscriminating. Instead, we are imprinted to believe that our worthiness and validity as individuals depends on our external connections to other individuals, and now we have set the stage for incorrect energy dynamics.

If you only believe that you are loveable because someone loves you, then you will never seek to know the truth of yourself, which is arrived at by expanding into that full cosmic connection with the universe. Instead, your power is slowly drained from you over the course of your life, and then you die. No miracles, no magic, no manifestion, no altering of your reality on a quantum level... except in the negative sense. The erosion of ageing.

So, back to the original question... the demonization of sex. There's a scene in The Matrix that pretty much sums it up for me... where Morpheus has Neo in the 'construct' and is showing him that the goal of the machines is to turn humans into batteries.

(/soapbox)

In conclusion, Satan did it. *nod*
 fidoluvsit
Joined: 3/30/2006
Msg: 35
view profile
History
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/16/2006 10:48:31 PM
Robert,
Here is a chart showing the relation of the classifications plants and animals are subject to.
Specie relates to the word "sapiens" as in Homo sapiens. The genus is signified by the word "Homo", capitalized. then we go further to see that all mammals are in the class "mammalia".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_%28biology%29

So that means we are animals that love Tits. And Ass. And of course we demonize those women - cause we're the horny little devils !
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 36
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/16/2006 11:53:38 PM
what is your definition of love in this context? Can you please explain? Thanks.


Just take out the romantic stuff and you pretty much have it, Blueberry.



love

love [luv]
n (plural loves)
1. very strong affection: an intense feeling of tender affection and compassion
Young children need unconditional love.

2. passionate attraction and desire: a passionate feeling of romantic desire and sexual attraction
3. somebody much loved: somebody who is loved romantically
He was her first real love.

4. romantic affair: a affair, possibly sexual
5. strong liking: strong liking for or pleasure gained from something
his love of music

6. something eliciting enthusiasm: something that elicits deep interest and enthusiasm in somebody
Music was his greatest love but he also liked ballet.

7. beloved: used as an affectionate word to somebody loved
8. U.K. term of friendly address: used as a friendly term of address, usually to a woman (informal)
Here’s your change, love.

9. christianity God’s love for humanity: the mercy, grace, and charity shown by God to humanity
10. christianity worship of God: the worship and adoration of God
11. sports game score of zero: a score of zero in sports and games, for example, tennis, squash, and whist


v (past loved, past participle loved, present participle lov·ing, 3rd person present singular loves)
1. vti feel tender affection for: to feel tender affection for somebody, for example, a close relative or friend, or for something such as a place, an ideal, or an animal
2. vti feel desire for: to feel romantic and sexual desire and longing for somebody
3. vt like very much: to like something or like doing something very much
I love watching old movies on TV.

4. vt show kindness to: to feel and show kindness and charity to somebody
love one another and love your neighbor

5. vt have sexual intercourse with: to have sexual intercourse with somebody (dated)


[Old English lufian , from lufu “love” (source of the noun). Ultimately from an Indo-European word meaning “to love,” which is also the ancestor of English libido, belief, and leave2 “absence.”]

See Usage note at enamored.
Word Key: Synonyms
love, liking, affection, fondness, passion, infatuation, crush,
CORE MEANING: a strong positive feeling toward somebody or something
love used to describe a very strong, positive feeling toward somebody or something. It is used especially to talk about strong romantic or sexual feelings between people; liking used to talk about positive feelings toward somebody or something. These feelings are not as strong as those suggested by love; affection used to describe warm friendly caring feelings between people. It can also be used to talk about a liking for something such as a place; fondness used in a similar way to affection to talk about feelings between people. It can also be used to describe a strong liking or preference for something; passion used to describe an exceptionally intense love for somebody, usually of a strong sexual nature. It can also be used to refer to a strong liking or enthusiasm for something, sometimes of an excessive nature; infatuation used to describe an intense but short-lived and often unrealistic love for somebody, usually of a romantic or sexual nature; crush used to describe somebody’s strong feeling of attraction toward a person with whom he or she is not having a relationship. It is used especially to talk about teenagers and young people
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
 lazyboy
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 37
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/17/2006 12:53:11 AM
If these scripts were true, there would be a lot of one handed, one eyed men walking around.


Or many dickless men too.
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 38
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/17/2006 2:19:38 PM
Gracious! That was amazing.


So if sex is our lesson in the physical to show us the resonance of a 'divine' frequency, then a demonization of that is all about preventing us from attaining that kind of power. One might almost think there was some kind of inimical force that actively seeks to prevent us from doing so. (Let's call it... I know, Evil!)


And, if we were in control of our own power and sense of connectedness with the Divine... who needs the third party such as a church in there?

Oh dear... perhaps you've offered up a brilliant scheme that keeps a lot of people employed and fed... let's convince everyone that they are not capable of a personal connection to the Divine - that they have to go through "us" as we're the only ones the Divine will talk to. AND, we can have everyone support us financially because we're very self-important being so connected and all.

Could you imagine how many unemployed people there would be if your example suddenly became reality? No wonder it's so darn important for them to need to control people.

Right on.
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 39
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/17/2006 7:09:40 PM
Breaca
I would be very interested to know your take on the sixties culture and countercultural attitudes towards sex. Was it a good experiment? I know that the drug culture was closely linked but I would be fascinated to hear what you have to say on the topic.
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 40
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 2:52:48 AM
Hi Robertj64.

Do you mean within the confines of this thread? Perhaps you could start another thread about sixties counter culture and attitudes towards sex. I'll participate. Just let me know which category you put it... as it doesn't have much to do with Religion.



 longte
Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 41
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 3:44:29 AM
""What has been the backlash (if any) on cultures engrained in the demonization of sex?""

Very suprised nobody has yet mentioned Female Circumcision
This practise was fairly common in many Older African Religions and is still practised amongst some Radical Muslims
It was done solely to remove enjoyment by the women
Original reason most probably was that Sex was considered Bad, therefore women should not enjoy it
..
.
 .Tiamat.
Joined: 1/12/2006
Msg: 42
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 6:09:53 AM

Oh dear... perhaps you've offered up a brilliant scheme that keeps a lot of people employed and fed... let's convince everyone that they are not capable of a personal connection to the Divine - that they have to go through "us" as we're the only ones the Divine will talk to. AND, we can have everyone support us financially because we're very self-important being so connected and all.


Exactly! This applies to the whole 'guru' phenomena equally... all these people running around trying to get to enlightenment by riding on the coattails of some 'ascended being', when it's simply a matter of getting your own electromagnetics aligned with the 'divine'. And no one else can ever do that for you... but most religions out there would have us believe that their elite clergy (or equivalent) are the only ones with the pipeline to God. And we obviously need them to speak to God on our behalf, and to interpret the messages coming the other way, because we're stupid and how could we possibly know what God wants from us?

Apparently God wants us to stop having sex, and if we *must* do it to keep the population up, we'd damn well better not enjoy it. *eyeroll* And never mind unemployment... can you imagine how pissed off you would be if all your training and teaching told you that in order to become the exclusive pipeline to God you had to renounce sex, and suddenly you found out that it was the OPPOSITE? Even within the church... those poor **stards!

Yeah, we really went off the rails on this one :)
 .Tiamat.
Joined: 1/12/2006
Msg: 43
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 6:17:22 AM
@longte - Good point... I've spent a fair bit of time in West Africa, and although many west African countries have made the practice illegal, it's still done in the villages. It's not just the radical Muslims, the stats are something like 120 million African women have been circumcised.

And it's essentially the same reason I was mentioning above - there's an ancient Dogon legend that speaks about how the god of the Sky and the goddess of the Earth came together for copulation (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) and in her passion, the goddess erected a huge mountain, which so terrified the sky god that he levelled the mountain so he could 'conquer' her. This is pre-Muslim - and was the story used to justify female circumcision in at least that culture. So much for feminine passion and power!

And thus we have another perversion of true Power... turned into power over.
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 44
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 1:08:57 PM

Very suprised nobody has yet mentioned Female Circumcision
This practise was fairly common in many Older African Religions and is still practised amongst some Radical Muslims
It was done solely to remove enjoyment by the women
Original reason most probably was that Sex was considered Bad, therefore women should not enjoy it
..


Very good.

Yes... Memories of a documentary on female circumcision and using broken pieces of glass to perform the deed. Very nasty.

Not ancient history:
http://upalumni.org/medschool/appendices/appendix-42.html <--- ick.
The reason was that WOMEN weren't suppose to enjoy sex. As a matter of fact, even Victorian era priests and doctors realized that "the total repression of woman's sexuality was crucial to ensure her subjugation."

Add to this, in the US there is the record of clitoridectomy for curing masturbation performed in 1948 – on a five year old girl. Not surprisingly, there are no records of similar operations performed on boys for masturbation.

And ignorance or fear of female sexuality, even today, has my daughters attending sex ed classes only to be told that the primary male sex organ is the penis.. yet, the primary sex organ listed for a female is the vagina. Yes, this is today. Excuse us hysterical women for wanting to enjoy this too but….
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 45
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 1:27:10 PM
You mean the primary sex organ for the female is not the tongue???? Hehehehehehhe
 Blueberry
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 46
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 2:02:17 PM

Yes, this is today. Excuse us hysterical women for wanting to enjoy this too but….
Too funny! I'm guessing you chose that word on pupose... Reminds me of how the vibrator came into existance. We can thank "modern" medicine for the origins of the word hysterical. (ie. "That woman is having some kind of mental problem. Better send her to the doctor so he can give her an orgasm and calm her down"...)
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 47
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 3:08:25 PM
Now, now robertj64,...

We can't be having any fun. This is about sex, you know.

And, Blueberry .. you'll need to behave yourself or I'll have to hide your batteries.



 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 48
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 3:11:26 PM
Right Right...I momentarily forgot about that...

(runs down the hall swatting at all the demons)
 Hezron
Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 49
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 3:54:40 PM
The demonization of sex provides control. Without control and limits on behavior society is impossible. Women are taught that they must not have unrestricted sex with multiple partners because that leads to anarchy...family values were instilled to make it possible for a society to operate. If everybody slept with everybody...well nobody would know who's kids belonged to who and the family would decline and so then would society itself. I don't agree with all of this but this is what hisotry indicates...
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 50
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/18/2006 4:02:38 PM
Yes but now with DNA testing and paternity tests, woman can now have fun again....Yay!!
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