| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/16/2006 6:08:11 PM | im just curious:
how does one beleive there is a 'HEAVEN' , NOT a HE11?
there is NO other 'place' to obtain the info of 'HEAVEN'
(other than books that refer also to HE11)
before any 'kneejerk' response...
i do not personally believe/care/concern myself
bout ANY 'religion'
AND, i WOULD understand a 'notion' of a 'heavenlike place'
(ie. paradise,slenduria,mesanarnia,etc.)
just- the actual 'word'
HEAVEN?
tis almost like saying...
'believe in HE11-but, not heaven
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/16/2006 7:18:16 PM | Shadow
You are still not answering the question. If God was all good when he started out...that point I was discussing...where did the evil come from.
Let's look at your quote:
"I have already pointed out that God created all souls with mind of their own and absolute freedom of choice."
In order for him to create the choice for Satan, he had to have created evil....
1)God is all good (no evil)
2)God creates Satan (no evil)
3)God creates free will (birth of evil at this point because there is a choice)
4)Satan chooses the evil option and is banished by God.
Once you admit that it was God who created free will, you have to admit that it was God who created the evil. There can be no other explanation. Therefore 1) definition is not true and has to be re-worked.
Whoever creates the free-will is the creator of evil. If God was the creator of free will and evil then we cannot label Him all good.
Your ideas are extremely weak and do not hold up to logical scrutiny. Let alone to the fact that there was nobody around to truly record this story as it were. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 3:31:25 AM | | Suckafish, you are going on the basic assumption that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. There really does not HAVE to be a Hell in order to have a Heaven. If there is a Hell it's where we are now. Nothing is more evil than man's inhumanity to man. In the concept .liv described that you are questioning, I'm assuming that the reference being made was that we are reincarnated with the chance of improvment in each incarnation until we have attained the proper knowledge to ascend to a higher plane of existance. I can't speak for her but her words lead you to guess as much. Many religions believe in this concept and prefer to disreguard the christian concept of Hell. I can agree with her words that no loving God would condem any creature to everlasting damnation. We learn, we grow. Life is a cycle oft repeated. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 6:10:01 AM | Robert, I think Shadow's main argument is this:
God is pure good because anything he does is considered pure good. Anything anyone does against God or what God doesn't want you to do is considered evil. Free will allows us to do what God doesn't want us to do. Therefore Evil.
The problem with this logic is that if I wanted to wipe the world of sinners (ie everyone) it's considered good because God did it. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 8:38:34 AM | To Dave:
Please make your own point and don’t try to put words in my mouth. You have no clue what my main argument is. There is no ground in your logic because you are not supposed to do everything that God does. You don’t have the means, power or intelligence to do anything close to what God does. Your acts are supposed to be within the parameter God had intended and it doesn’t include wiping out the sinners. So, please make your own point and don’t try to show that your conclusion is based on my opinion.
By Dave:
“when I stand before god and he looks at me and says "Well, you've lived a good life, but since you didn't believe in me, off to hell with you" then at that moment I will have something against him and work with whoever I can to fight god. Because any god who condems you for simply not worshiping him isn't a god I feel should be worshiped.”
I am not sure why you want to fight God? You can easily plan a different approach, (i.e. ask for forgiveness or something). Whether it works or not it…will be better than fighting God, because with that attitude I am not sure where you will stand.
To liv2222:
You don’t believe in everlasting damnation or hell? But you believe in Heaven? Is this belief is based on any religion? Because I never heard of such a scenario. What is there to stop people from committing sins if they know there is no punishment? What kind of world would that be if everyone starts to believe in that?
By liv2222:
“I suggest reading various texts, etc., taking what you agree with, and leaving the rest behind.”
Most religion bans this practice, meaning you cannot believe in bits and pieces and ignore important stuff like not believing in hell. By doing so, one would create one’s own religion and that is not going to work for me. I am looking into existing religions. I want to understand an existing religion myself without changing any of its basic beliefs.
By Suckafish:
“how does one beleive there is a 'HEAVEN' , NOT a HE11?”
You are right! I never heard that either.
To robertj64:
I am not sure why you have convinced yourself that God is directly responsible for creating evil thoughts into Satan’s head. Then according to your theory - the inventor of television is responsible for all illegal pornography that someone might watch on television. Similarly the inventor of Computer is responsible for any illegal activity with the help of a computer. The inventor of automobile is responsible if someone uses one to run somebody over and kills him intentionally.
Anything invented for good purpose can be used in an evil way. The inventor is not responsible for it. Think about it and you will get my point. God gave us conscious and freewill. We knew what is good, so figuring out the opposite wasn’t difficult. When we choose to work on those thoughts that are the opposite of good, that’s when evil begins.
Doubts + arrogance = opposite to good thoughts + acting on it = Evil
‘Opposite of good’ wasn’t hard to figure out (everyone were born with it) but acting on it was the starting point of evilness. You can think you can do your boss’s job better but telling him on his face is what might put you in trouble.
Anyways, you didn’t provide me with your answers. You didn’t even mention your ideas regarding evil.
You showed an analogical example in the other thread about banana peel. It has no merit because the scenario is not the same. Let me quote you first…
By robertj64 in the thread “Why Evil… why doesn’t our creator just eliminate evil…”.
“if I ice up the steps and put a banana peel at the bottom of the stairs, and you walk down and fall breaking your leg, that I am not responsible.”
God did not have bad intentions when he created us with freewill. Your putting banana peel at the bottom of the stairs shows bad intentions. So it is not the same.
By robertj64;
“Your ideas are extremely weak and do not hold up to logical scrutiny. Let alone to the fact that there was nobody around to truly record this story as it were.”
I think it makes perfect sense so far because no one can provide a better scenario or better and more believable answers to my questions. Let me summarize and give answers to my own questions to check a second time. I will post it in another post.
By the way I don’t believe there is any truth in the religions based on repeated incarnations for betterment ourselves and try to rise to a higher existence. If that was the case then God would have help us remember our past lives. Why would we start from the zero? Why would God even create us in a way that we have to try and rise from the bottom? Why he didn’t create us with top qualities? There is no limit to goodness, so without memories intact – it is impossible to achieve the highest ground. The game to betterment would go on forever when you start from zero every time. Actually if I understand correctly you can even start from less than zero because you can come back as animals. That concept makes absolutely no sense. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 8:47:48 AM | Most people are not reading the whole thread because it is too long. So I thought I should point out my findings and see if I get better response to show me where I might be getting wrong ideas. I want to consider different opinions primarily based on any religion. Non believers can make your case also but please keep it civil.
1) Why God is silent?
In this world – In the past, God has given us all the revelations that we need. He has told us his reasons for not directly interacting with us until our resurrection and the judgment day. That is when we will face God again.
2) Why God does not show himself to us?
God decided not to show himself for the time being. A few billion years ago, God created all our souls simultaneously. Some of us rebelled and questioned God’s absolute authority by listening to Satan. God was annoyed with us for doubting his authority. But he decided to give us a second chance. Our memory was erased so that we can properly get the opportunity to be tested for the second time. Satan is trying to fool us but with this time with whispers only. This is a different scenario than that earlier incident because before we could see Satan and all his God given powers. We could also see God then. This time the test is without direct proofs. To facilitate this God decide not to show himself to us as well. If God showed himself then everyone would believe in him. There is no point in that.
3) Why are we here on earth in the first place?
Initially God put Adam and Eve in heavens but after the forbidden fruit incident – they were moved to a tougher place to carry out this test. Here on earth among all the dangerous scenarios, diseases, accidents, torturous deaths, chaos, misery and so on – it is even harder to stay on the right track. Here on earth, our primary mission in life should be to repent and try to redeem ourselves for questioning God’s absolute authority. We are also required to lead a righteous life.
4) What’s God’s plan behind creating this world?
To give us a second chance for redemption. With our God given freewill we can think whatever we want. God wanted to see if we could be fooled again by this Satan entity. But this time God didn’t allow him with the power to show himself to us. He can only whisper to us and put evil ideas in our head. In this world - those of us who are successfully able to disregard Satan’s evil ideas and lead a righteous life and believe in one God and believe in the judgment day – will make it back to the heaven. To avail an opportunity for redemption for us – God created this world.
5) Why God gave so much power to Satan/Evil?
Satan was initially an Angel who was very devoted to God. God elected him to higher authority and gave him some extra powers. With this God given extra powers – Satan got an arrogant idea that he too can run a dominion. Later he was down graded to a lesser power entity who can only whisper in our mind.
6) Why God don’t eliminate Satan and directly protect us?
After Satan defied God, he was banished from God’s kingdom. God condemned Satan to everlasting damnation. Satan asked for a grace period and was granted by God until judgment day. On that day he will be thrown into hell. In the mean time God allowed him to try and fool us for the second time, but this time with lesser powers. Since he is incorporated in the bigger picture of God’s plan – God has decided to spare him for now until judgment day.
7) Why the ever-lasting damnation?
Anyone who defies God completely or proves themselves totally unworthy and a disgrace – would need to be punished. That is why ever-lasting damnation was introduced. Punishments are necessary when someone is totally and absolutely out of line. Many lesser sinners will also get hell but they will eventually move to heaven after they serve their time and carry out their temporary sentences.
8) Is there really heaven and hell?
Yes! Heaven and hell are there. God created heaven to entice and encourage us to stay on the right track. He also created hell to discourage us from going on the wrong direction.
9) Why should we have blind fate?
Even though blind fate is better than no-fate, yet we should not practice only blind fate. Initially when we are kids, we should consider ourselves lucky if our parents put ourselves in the right direction BUT later as we grow older - we should investigate and research God’s revelations and also look at all the natural evidence in front of our eyes to decide what we want to believe. Possibility is there for many of us to figure out the right track and the meaning of our life. Those of us who can successfully follow the right path might get forgiveness from God for our earlier sin and God might accept us back in heavens. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 10:07:14 AM | Shadow
Your arguments on evil work after the fact that evil was created:
"the inventor of television is responsible for all illegal pornography that someone might watch on television. Similarly the inventor of Computer is responsible for any illegal activity with the help of a computer. The inventor of automobile is responsible if someone uses one to run somebody over and kills him intentionally."
The analogies are extremely incorrect because you are not dealing with the BIRTH of evil.
Here is the logic statement in a nutshell and I invite all people to comment on this:
If God was all powerful and ONLY good and he created free will (when he created the angels) then it was HE who invented evil. Before free will there was no evil to choose from. So God created evil as the option of free will.
Shadow, address the issue specifically and do not give me later time frames. ANSWER THE QUESTION. How could God create free will and not evil? | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 10:28:10 AM | I would like to post my own speculations:
1)Why God is silent - He always was and always is and always will be. God is what God is.
2)Why does God not show Himself to us - As always, He just does not do so.
3)Why are we here on earth in the first place - I don't know that...but we are given a limited time to live our life here. LIVE AND LEARN.
4)What is God's plan behind creating this world - that is impossible to know for sure. To know so would be cause for incredible arrogance worthy of SATAN himself.
5)Why God gave so much power to Satan.... not sure...this is all pure speculation. Makes no logical sense. A good God would not work with an evil Satan especially one that has been banished.
6)Why would God not eliminate Satan and protect us: Probably because Satan is unlikely to have been real. Man's limited ability to understand things manufactured him to explain all the evil behaviour that man is capable of.
7) Why ever lasting damnation - simply not logical that a God would punish us for temporary sins of the finite world with an eternal damnation. It comes across as intelligent as an 85 year old father continuously whipping his 55 year old son for stealing that candy at the age 5 from the candy store. Very unlikely.
8)Is there Heaven and Hell: Since all creations need God (He is omnipotent), Hell must need God to run it. Therefore it must be God over Satan that is running hell and heaven at the same time.
9)Should we have blind faith
Nope. God gave us brains to create, rationalize and analyze. Blind faith should only been in those instances where there will not be enough ever to base on facts. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 10:35:48 AM | ''GOD IS EVERYTHING BOTH GOOD AND EVIL HE IS EVERYTHING AND THATS ALL ''
An interesting statement that I believe most Christians would not opt for. The amazing consequences of the above statement would immediately have some profound results. If God is indeed both good and evil then man would truly be made in His image.
However, it would no longer make sense for Jesus to come down as a saviour. Also the loving Father would be completely false. Amazing how one statement can affect the dynamics of relationship and make a major religion insignificant with one felled swoop. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 10:56:30 AM | naw, not going on ANY 'ASSumption'
'for every action/opposite action-blahbedy blah'
SIMPLE: the WORD 'heaven' is brought forth in zee
'christian books'
i am NOT questioning the 'CONCEPT'
MERELY...the WORD
as for 'WHY-silent,satan,da....'?
i do not KNOW about ANY of these
i am NOT a 'christian'
a m not an 'athiest'
just ME
had a question of LOGIC-NO answer
doh well
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/17/2006 1:53:30 PM | Shadow: My appologies. I was under the assumption you were claiming that God is pure good. If God is pure good, wouldn't anything and everything he does be good? Therefore if we do it, isn't it also good? Or does god have a different definition of Good then we do?
Also I wouldn't ask forgiveness from a being who is so egotistical as to punish someone for simply not worshiping them. Sorry but you may think I can't put such human ideas onto god, but it's all I have and all powerfull creator of everything or not, I will not have my life's purpose be to feed his ego. And if that is the purpose of the universe then it's time someone took the universe from him. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/18/2006 8:39:36 AM | 1) Why God is silent?
2) Why God does not show himself to us?
3) Why are we here on earth in the first place?
4) What’s God’s plan behind creating this world?
5) Why God gave so much power to Satan/Evil?
6) Why God don’t eliminate Satan and directly protect us?
7) Why the ever-lasting damnation?
8) Is there really heaven and hell?
9) Why should we have blind fate?
***************************
1)He's not.He leaves evidence of his existence in the order of the universe.I don't believe in an anthropomorphic god, but rather an infinite intelligence and creative force that binds the cosmos together and operates it.As such this work is never "finished".
2)He does.Creation is his signature.
3)Because the function of a creative power is to create.
4)A drive of sorts.The same kind of drive that motivates an artist to paint a picture or a poet to write a poem.
5)Don't really believe in a literal Satanic diety,however,people are endowed with independent thinking brains and choose their ways in life.Many choices are wrong and this creates this "power" you are speaking of.
6)See answer 5.The power to eliminate "Satan" (i.e. our own evils)is within ourselves.
7)Each person creates their own "Heaven" and "Hell" right here and now.As for what happens at death, we'll have to wait and see.
8)You should NEVER have "Blind" faith.An intelligent Christian bases his faith on the teachings of Christ, nothing blind about that,they are spelled out in the Gospels.The Jew's faith, the Torah, the Muslim,the Koran.All intelligent people of faith base a certain amount of their faith on knowledge of their own doctrines and the common sense God gave them. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/18/2006 8:59:07 AM | Dig your answers to 1, 2, and esp. 8, taurus.
RE: Blind faith:
"I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." -Galileo
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."-Albert Einstein
Just thought those two quotes from brilliant thinkers somehow apply. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/19/2006 9:13:57 AM | By robertj64:
“If God was all powerful and ONLY good and he created free will (when he created the angels) then it was HE who invented evil. Before free will there was no evil to choose from. So God created evil as the option of free will.”
So what are you trying to say? God is passively involved in creating evil because he created everything? Don’t you think there is a huge difference in actively creating something and something getting created as a side effect? Why are you killing your brain cells on this?
I think my analogies regarding inventor or Television, Computer and Car - makes good sense because the inventors of these things didn’t invent them for bad use.
The inventor of Car didn’t make it to be used to run someone over and kill them but it can be used in that fashion. He invented it as a medium of transportation.
Similarly, analogically speaking --- we could be the car and God the inventor. If the inventor of car gave the car a mind of its own and the car runs someone over and thus crosses the intended actions then it is the car’s fault. Option of good and bad is given but the car took the bad one. Yes, God can see the future but maybe he chose not to use that power to see the future--- just for the fun of it. It is God’s prerogative, is it not?
Your answer to question 1 & 2 are almost a - “I don’t know” scenario. This is primary the reason for many critics and non-believers to say they don’t believe in a God that doesn’t show himself. Knowing the answer as to why God doesn’t show himself to us - might help to understand that before we just believe in him blindly.
Your answer to #4 --- again didn’t make any sense to me because why knowing this answer (especially when it is available) would cause arrogance worthy of Satan? I don’t understand what you meant.
Your answer to #5 --- Why would you think God is working with Satan? He just allowed Satan to work on us and try to fool us again. This will only be allowed until judgment day. God wanted to test us again, so what is the harm in utilizing Satan? After all Satan was also given freewill.
On your answer #6 --- Satan is real but he is not responsible for everything evil that we do. He only whispers thoughts in our head. We are completely capable to come up with some of the evils all by ourselves, just like Satan initially did. We too have freewill to take us to the wrong direction. I will elaborate on this at a later time. But it is a common misconception that Satan is the only evil.
He is the discoverer and initiator of evil, but we also have freewill to go to the wrong ways with or without his guidance. As I explained in my OP – we have one of those entities within our conscious from the group D. This entity is providing us with constant wrong and debatable thoughts within our head.
On your answer #7 --- No! It is simply illogical that God would not punish some serious criminals with ever-lasting damnation. Why would anyone listen to God then? With the goodness of our heart? Yes that would be an ideal scenario but what if we don’t listen with the goodness of our heart? What should God do with those entities?
Ever-lasting damnation is only for the most serious infringers, NOT every small sinner. Small sinner will eventually make it to havens after a due course in hell.
There are categories of sin. Not all sins are equal.
Just like if you are a serial killer you forfeit your right to live --- there are categories of sin that makes an entity worthy of ever-lasting damnation.
On your answer #8 --- So you do believe in hell and temporary punishment? But not ever-lasting damnation??
So since you believe in temporary punishment, where is that timeframe coming from? I thought you didn’t believe in the concept of “time” in the spiritual world. So how long these temporary punishment last?
On your answer to #9 --- I actually like this answer!!!!
By Dave:
“If God is pure good, wouldn't anything and everything he does be good? Therefore if we do it, isn't it also good? Or does god have a different definition of Good then we do?”
First of all – God specifically instructed us to concentrate our thoughts on his creations. Anything in the universe including our body, this world, other planets, tress, stars everything. BUT he told us not to think about his origin and how he performs his miracles, because he didn’t make us in a way to figure that out. We have our limitations to our intelligence. We should not compare our acts to God’s acts. For that God has sent prophets. Now if you want to bring Jesus into the picture then I have to inform you that I do not believe he was God or son of God. IMO Jesus only relayed God’s instructions and revelations.
I can not claim to be a follower of any man known religion yet, but soon that could change after I complete my investigation. It is simply too difficult to follow any religion to its bear bones. That’s why I chose to just learn first.
Anyways, back to the point --- God instructed through most famous religious doctrines – not to directly concentrate on his origin and how his powers work, because he didn’t make us intelligent enough to figure that out.
Any computer software has its limitations; similarly our intelligence has its limitations.
We have parameters to our activities. God has set certain parameters. A judge can sentence a serial killer to death and an executioner can carry that out. Unless you are an executioner – you are not allowed to take anyone’s life. However, God created us and gave us life and he can take it back. You are not allowed. So why try to compare your doings to God? Moral teachings are available in all the famous religions, just base you activities on them if you want to lead a righteous life. It is your choice to do so.
By Dave:
“Also I wouldn't ask forgiveness from a being who is so egotistical as to punish someone for simply not worshiping them. Sorry but you may think I can't put such human ideas onto god, but it's all I have and all powerfull creator of everything or not, I will not have my life's purpose be to feed his ego. And if that is the purpose of the universe then it's time someone took the universe from him.”
Just who do you think gave you your life and exactly who can take the universe from God? For someone who doesn’t believe in God surely believe in an entity other than God. It keeps coming up in your posts. How is that???
I am sorry but I can not rebuttal every comment, especially because your mind is completely made up. Nothing I say will ever make any sense to you. It is very obvious to me. So why even try?
By the way I am not here to help people find the right way. I am just here to get feedback to figure out what to search for - when I look into the religious doctrines. I am in a search mode myself. Even if I wanted to help anyone who seek help I couldn’t really do a great job until I can figure out everything myself. I know it may look like I am trying to preach sometimes but believe me that is absolutely not the case. I am just making my points to get some good feedbacks. Something I can use to carryout my research.
Your comments did help me to see a non-believers point of view. And I thank you for sharing.
To Taurus:
I appreciate your answers. They are great. But I wanted answers that would make sense to even a non-believer. Most non-believer’s main point is --- “Why we can’t see the God? Why he doesn’t talk to us face to face? As for the Torah, Bible and Koran --- they means nothing to non-believers or even to most of the inter-believers.
I am trying to seek answers that would make perfect sense to everyone, and people won’t have a reason not to believe. I know that is an impossible scenario and probably will never happen until our resurrection and the judgment day, when we actually will face God.
To LilNikki:
“"I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." –Galileo””
I would like to tell Galileo that no one told us to forego the use of our sense, reason and intellect. We are encouraged to use it to the best of our ability. That is exactly what I am trying to do when I search for my answers. God wanted us to do so, that’s the purpose of this life, to learn and figure out and then implement those beliefs and believe in one God, the judgment day and lead a righteous life.
By LiNikki:
““Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."-Albert Einstein””
I completely agree with Einstein. He is right when he said this. I too don’t believe in the practitioners of any religion. I do not base my opinions by looking at them.
Who is to say that they came up with the right answers?? There are so many examples of confused and contradictory religious people that it is really a shame to believe in them. They don’t know their own religion. We need to research on our own and they need to let us do that. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/19/2006 10:20:22 AM | Hi shadow  ... lol. "I would like to tell Galileo that no one told us to forego the use of our sense, reason and intellect."
The Church said that Galileo's view that the earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around was blasphemous and heretical (since they believed the earth was the center of God's creation) and threatened to burn him at the stake for heresy, forcing him to recant and continue letting the Church (and the ppl they controlled) live in ignorance, at that time. This is why Galileo said what he did-the Church supressed his knowledge (i.e. told him to forego his use of sense, reason and intellect).
"I completely agree w/ Einstein.......I too don't believe in the practitioners of any religion."
I'm not really knowledgable in this area of his life, don't know if he adhered to any particular (organized) religion, though I highly doubt it... but I do know that he had a sense of a Higher Power at work in the universe. He also said this well-known quote: "...science without religion is lame;religion without science is blind." He also said some really cool quote on his reverence for the 'mystic'...can't remember it, though! 
Anyway, just thought I'd share that since you say you're in search mode (aren't we all?)- and I think that's awesome 'cause one thing that (to me) shows bigotry, ignorance and human arrogance is ppl on EITHER side of this type of issue claiming to *know* all the answers unequivically. Peace! | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/20/2006 12:36:49 PM | 7) Why the ever-lasting damnation?
Anyone who defies God completely or proves themselves totally unworthy and a disgrace – would need to be punished. That is why ever-lasting damnation was introduced. Punishments are necessary when someone is totally and absolutely out of line. Many lesser sinners will also get hell but they will eventually move to heaven after they serve their time and carry out their temporary sentences.
***************
Why carry it out indefinitely then?Why not just wipe the unworthy out and send them to non existence or oblivion? | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/20/2006 2:43:49 PM | paraphrased quote
"Without hell what reason would people have not to sin"
WoW.. just wow. I don't know about you, but I don't do bad things because I want to be a good person, not because of fear of punishment. To describe belief in god in the 'scurity camera over the shoulder' way, that is a really simplified and some what immature take on why should 'good' over 'evil'. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/20/2006 4:59:51 PM | By LiNikki:
“This is why Galileo said what he did-the Church supressed his knowledge (i.e. told him to forego his use of sense, reason and intellect).”
Now that you mentioned it – Yeah I remember hearing that before. More power to Galileo then.
I am not that good in history. It is full of corruption and crazy scenarios.
Primitive beliefs, annoying traditions, selfish culture, illiterate people – what else was there?
The good examples hardly stand out. They are shadowed by the bad ones.
Many of those people have changed many religions up side down. We need to look at the available doctrines of all famous religion and then try to figure out any possible distortions in them. The only way to find the truth is by using our own head. But remember the truth is out there. God would not leave us blind. We just have to look for it until we are sure that we found it.
I don’t believe in the so-called godly people in today’s world. The only people I don’t have any problem with – were the true prophets. But since no more prophets are coming any time soon, we have to do our own research. We can not believe in any of the current so-called religious people with complete face value. Many of them don’t have any clue about their own religion. Anyways I am not a Christian, nor am I a religious person. I am leaning towards a particular religion but haven’t officially indorsed anything yet. I have to do more research before I actually follow a religion. Most religion is hard to follow to the bare bones. There are so many rules. I need to confirm what is really asked before I follow anything because I don’t believe in existing followers – and I don’t believe that many of them know the accurate settings.
By LiNikki:
“He also said some really cool quote on his reverence for the 'mystic'...can't remember it, though!”
Could it be any of the following?...
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.” - Albert Einstein
“Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.” - Albert Einstein
By Taurus516:
“Why carry it out indefinitely then?Why not just wipe the unworthy out and send them to non existence or oblivion?”
Well! For the same reason some would think “death sentence” in the court system is not punishment enough for the serial killers. Some think they should rot in the jail and suffer. I know others are against death sentence for different moral reason but I am not talking about them.
If God had declared that there is no ever-lasting damnation then some desperate people won’t be scared to commit suicide because they will think God will send them to non existence, where they won’t exist anymore. They are already considering committing suicide from the world – so what will stop them then if there is no ever-lasting damnation?
Also I believe non existence won’t be a deterrent enough for many violent criminals. Some criminals changes their way - after realizing the punishments. They are examples of criminals who repent the rest of their life – hoping for forgiveness. It is never too late to ask for forgiveness.
Whether God will actually condemn anyone in this manner – is absolutely up to God. He may decide to forgive everyone eventually except the Satan. But mentioning the punishment in the doctrines is absolutely understandable to me.
God can forgive any sinner regardless of what they may have done. I believe that is God’s prerogative. Our job is to worry about not committing the sins.
As I mentioned before somewhere – God can forgive a sinner for giving water to a thirsty animal. For showing a little compassion like that - one might get a ticket to heaven. But that doesn’t mean we should do bad things and hope for a forgiveness like that. God can not be fooled.
By ndkofep:
“I want to be a good person, not because of fear of punishment.”
Well, how many kinds of sins are out there? Do you think all sins are easy to avoid.
Yes you can avoid killing people and stealing but what about the fun ones?
There are many bad things those are fun to do --- i.e. drugs, prostitution, gambling and adultery. Anything to do with temptations is not easy to stay away from - unless you have - on the back of your mind a conscious thought that you can go to hell for it.
I don’t know about you but just think – how many people are doing bad things knowing about the hell? Now imagine what would happen if the deterrent wasn’t there?
For the opposite reason to entice us – God has also mentioned about the heavens.
I personally don’t find anything wrong with this concept. | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/20/2006 7:19:33 PM | Shadow, those are some interesting quotes from Einstein. I believe I've heard them before, but forgot all about 'em,...so thanks for sharing. Really!
Not kissin' Shadow's azz here... , it just so happens that I happen to agree w/ a lot of his 'theories'. That said, I have to agree w/ his assertion that for many ppl, in many cases, the threat of punishment from God/a Higher Power or from *Karma IS a deterrent. I'm not gonna use the word 'Hell,' however, because it just conjures up what I think is an errant view of what God's/a Higher Power's/Karmic 'punishment' is (imo)...but I'm not gonna get into all that. But, yes, everyone usually does 'good' because it's just how they are, good ppl-and not for a reward- BUT when it comes to doing 'bad', usually something serious like murder or suicide, I definately have to agree that the threat of Godly/Universal/Karmic 'punishment' (or negative effects) *does* enter into a lot of ppls minds...if they're wise anyway (IMO). | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/20/2006 8:12:23 PM | Hey robert, play nice!
Yes, it is all speculation with no basis or backup, you're right. But most spiritual belief systems *are.
I'm not gonna get into my philosophies, but, yeah, shadows' opinions on a lot of things (not all) aren't really that far off from some of my own. Sorry I disappointed ya!
I do enjoy your posts and your input though,... usually very intelligent (haha @ usually...*wink*). And on that note, I agree with a lot, if not most of *your* opinions, also! I've a very ecclectic mind. heh. Peace... | |
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| Why God is silent? Why Earth? Why Satan? Why damnation? Heaven exists??
Posted: 4/20/2006 8:19:07 PM | Hi Lilnikki
I will play nice ...don't worry...I meant no disrespect.
I think you should read Earl Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle..it is online and it is quite amazing that it can form a plausible and intelligent thesis on how a belief system developed using history and scriptures as a backdrop.
It is a piece of work closest to my own ideals.
Take care of yourself
Robert | |
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