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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists[Thread Closed]      Home login  
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 lonelyinlr
Joined: 4/17/2006
Msg: 51
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian ScientistsPage 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Don't know about christian scientists, but mormons, jws, islam, and a few other sects aren't christians because they see another prophet, John Smith, Mohammed, ect., as more important then Jesus, but they still believe jesus was an important figure.



The Catholics ARE Christians, But the Others especially the Jehovahs witness and Mormons are not. No Christian would advocate polygamy!!!!


jews and muslims are not christians. they openly admit it, as well as its common knowledge.

but mormons are christians. they may have a prophet, but then again, don't catholics? just because his title is the Pope, isn't he the man who talks to god for guidance of the entire religion? mormons (LDS) do not advocate polygamy. any mormons who are discovered to pratice the forbidden life is excummunicated immediately from the church. however, there are some who call themselves Refined Latter Day Saints (RLDS) who still practice polygamy. the mormon church does not recognize this group as members.

mormons have also endured much since their rise as a religion. they have been exocuted, raped, tortured, discriminated, and hated, much of it by people who do not know anything about them. i would suggest some research into their church before you make another opinion or statement about them. i'm also going to tell you that you are likely to be a fan of a celebrity or two who are practicing mormons.

the mormon church is known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
 lonelyinlr
Joined: 4/17/2006
Msg: 52
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 4:02:06 AM
another interesting fact about the Mormon Church. most everyone envolved in the local churches do their work voluntarily. the only people who are compensated for their services to the church are the custodians.
 lonelyinlr
Joined: 4/17/2006
Msg: 53
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 4:20:25 AM

Mormons have some unusual views about God. IIRC, they believe that God was once a human and that it's possible for humans to become gods. They believe that God lives on the planet Kolob.


who did you hear this from, and why did you believe them? the truth behind this is nowhere near this point. read this...


Actually, according to "Mormon theology," God does not live on Kolob. Kolob means "the first creation" and is the name of the star closest to the "residence of God." It is not God's actual residence.

We learn of Kolob from Abraham's account found in The Pearl of Great Price, one of the Standard Works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

AND I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;

And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.


you can find this as well as answers to any other question you have about the mormon faith at http://lds.about.com
 ndkofep
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 54
view profile
History
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 4:41:58 AM
allh2h,
"Good point...although I have a question though. In any religion no matter Catholic, baptist down to wiccan, isn't there always a preist of SOME kind that has to teach it? Trying to wrod this correctly...I mean, Paul the Apostle, he spread the word didn't he?"

Very true, King James's rewrite and creation of the Church of England. The creation of the Lutherian church. But it not neccessaryly some teaching it a certain way. In each instance the person, King James, John Smith, Mohammed, the Catholic Church, is saying "God told me this is wrong and I need to remake and/or add to it." Its not people or a person discussing and interpreting a document, its them putting themselves up as the mouth pieces of god. People then follow these 'prophets'. That is religion, otherwise it would just be a philosophy like zen or buddism.

And welcome, sorry you've been lacking stimulating discussion, I'm sure you can find more then enough on here.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 55
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 7:53:14 AM


Actually, according to "Mormon theology," God does not live on Kolob. Kolob means "the first creation" and is the name of the star closest to the "residence of God." It is not God's actual residence.


My mistake. God lives near a star called Kolob. That's much less silly than thinking God lives on a distant planet.
 Garf
Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 56
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 9:38:04 AM
Toni1979: It was a joke...read into the sarcasm....lol. I think everyone should dress appropriately for presenting themselves to God.

ndkofep: You not only misinterpreted my words, but you also twisted my words to suit your purposes, instead of pointing out facts...I used to do that when I was losing arguments too. But then I realized it just made me look desperate.

Kolob? I've never heard that before...lol. Now that is silly.
 alaska2004
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 57
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 10:20:15 AM
What were Christians called before they were called Christians?

In the old testament, the term "lord god" was used in two different ways. Theologians of today believe one represented Jesus and one represented God the Father. In Joshua 7:7 it is spelled "Lord GOD". In Joshua 24:2 it is spelled LORD God. This spelling difference occurs in many places in the OT. LORD represents God the Father and Lord represents Jesus. That is their explanation.

Many Christians today understand that though his name was not directly used that we know of, Jesus was the God of the OT and the NT, doing the will of the Father. Therefore without knowing it, those that believed in the God of the OT would have been Christians.

So my point is that even without the mention of the name of Jesus the Christ, anyone having a belief in God and applied or applies themselves to most or all of the 12 commandments can be called a Christian by it's definition.
 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 58
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 10:27:07 AM
{but mormons are christians. they may have a prophet, but then again, don't catholics? just because his title is the Pope, isn't he the man who talks to god for guidance of the entire religion? mormons (LDS) do not advocate polygamy. any mormons who are discovered to pratice the forbidden life is excummunicated immediately from the church. however, there are some who call themselves Refined Latter Day Saints (RLDS) who still practice polygamy. the mormon church does not recognize this group as members.}

Nope ,Mormons are not because they don't see Jesus christ as the Supreme and ONLY way to Heaven. They have different doctrinal teachings and their Theology is different also.
 alaska2004
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 59
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 1:07:21 PM
Since you have strong opinions of who aren't Christians mardio, can you make a list of two dozen supposed Christian religions of the existing ten thousand who you feel are Christians? I'm curious of your views.
 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 60
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 1:32:48 PM
(Since you have strong opinions of who aren't Christians mardio, can you make a list of two dozen supposed Christian religions of the existing ten thousand who you feel are Christians? I'm curious of your views.)

Well I do try to stick to the truth, and I just liek to be consistent in the doctrines.

There are three MAJOR branches The Roman Catholics, The Protestant and Eastern Orthodox.

Protestant has MANY sub divisions like- Baptist, prespyterian, Methodists, Calvinists, Lutheran, Anglican, penticostal, episcobal, Church of God, Charistmatic,Arminian (sp), Weslyan, Salvation Army etc

Catholic- fransiscans, mennonite (I think part of catholic), Jesuits , non Popal believing Catholics, mainline Catholics that do see the Pope as an authority in the church etc

Eastern Orthodox - well Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox etc.

Plus there are mix forms too like Catholic-charistmatic, or Swiss-reform, Cathlo-Anglican, evangelical etc

Although evangelicals are protestant, there mix with penticostal and many others is what I meant.



But the main point is that If the MAIN DOCTRINE is the same and according to the Bible, then it's Christian in nature. Truths like the divinity of Christ, the Virgin Birth of Christ, The Holy Trinity, The subsitutionary atonement that Christ did for us in dying for our sins and rasing again and ascending to Heaven, The sinless life of Christ on earth, justification by faith and grace.
 ndkofep
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 61
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Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 2:29:05 PM
Garf,
I don't see what you mean. If I miss interpretted your words then clarify what you ment or where I was mistaken. As for twisting your words to my purpose, I'm pretty sure I quoted your words and then provided my own to state my purpose. And I don't see what your getting at with the facts part as this is really more of a philisophical discussion on how far beliefs can deviate from standard 'christian' doctrine and still be classified as Christain, really quite beyound the 'fact' area. Looking back through your posts I don't see where you stated any 'facts' either, so maybe instead of declaring your 'winning or the argument', you could give back some sort of reason that something I said was wrong or atleast some reason that somthing you said is right, that is called discussion and is why most people come to these forums, thanx.

To clearly state my point. Christian may have been derived from words in other languages that translated to Christ-like, but the modern english word 'christian' designates those that follow or claim to follow the books know as the Bible as compiled by a specific religious concil back in the early centeries of the moder era. This is the definition I use and, imo, the one that most american's have in mind when they talk about 'christians'. Sorry if this is all unneccary since you already won, but I thought I would respond anyway.
 squirrly
Joined: 6/8/2005
Msg: 62
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 2:40:39 PM
while I am sure mardioluv, you have your own opinions on what religions are christian perhaps wikipedia is a better authority.


Within Christianity numerous distinct groups have developed with beliefs that vary widely by culture and place. Since the Reformation Christianity is usually represented as being divided into three main branches:

* Roman Catholicism: The Roman Catholic Church, the largest single body — which includes several Eastern Catholic communities — as well as certain smaller communities (e.g., the Old-Catholics), with more than 1.085 billion baptized members.

* Eastern Christianity: Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches (including Western Orthodox churches which preserve Latin practices while accepting Orthodox theology), with a combined membership of more than 240 million baptized members.

* Protestantism: .Numerous denominations and groups such as Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Evangelical, Charismatic, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Anabaptists, and Pentecostals. The oldest of these separated from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th-century Protestant Reformation, followed in many cases by further divisions. Some Protestants identify themselves simply as Christian, or born-again Christian. Others, particularly among Anglicans and in Neo-Lutheranism, identify themselves as being "both Catholic and Protestant". Worldwide total ranges from 592 to 600 million.

Other denominations and churches which self-identify as Christian but which distance themselves from the above classifications together claim around 275 million members.

These include African indigenous churches with up to 110 million members (estimates vary widely),

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also called Mormons) with more than 12 million members,

Jehovah's Witnesses with approximately 6.6 million members,

and other groups. Most of these groups were founded by Protestants.
 seriouslyfunnylady
Joined: 5/10/2005
Msg: 63
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Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 2:44:33 PM
Ndko,

I thought you and others might find this interesting, since you brought up the idea of the definiton of a Christian. It is from one of my favorite web sites.


WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?
Which definition is correct?
Which one does this website use?

Which definition is correct?

This question assumes that there is one and only one correct definition of the term "Christian." However, depending upon your understanding of the nature of truth, all of the above definitions may be "true":

To conservative Protestants, a Christian is often defined according to their salvation status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with some of their foundational beliefs: that the Bible is inerrant, that salvation is by grace, and that one must be "born-again" to be saved and avoid eternal punishment in Hell.
To Roman Catholics, a Christian is often defined according to their baptism status. Their definition is "true" to them, because it agrees with their fundamental beliefs, including their understanding of the Bible, the declarations of many Church Councils, the statements of many popes, and their church's tradition.
To many in the very early Christian movement, a Christian was defined as a person who was baptized and proclaimed "Jesus is Lord." Their definition was "true" to them because it agreed with their understanding of their religious belief at a time when the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) had not yet been written and assembled.
And so on, with the remaining definitions.

Each group has their own definition of "Christian" which agrees with their own beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, church tradition, written text, evolved theology, etc. There appears to be no way to compromise on a single definition that is acceptable to all. One apparently cannot call on a higher power to resolve the problem, because there seems to be no way to assess the will of God on such matters. If there were such a method, then different definitions would have been harmonized centuries ago. People would simply have prayed to God and asked Him to define what a Christian is. Then, a consensus would exist today on the true meaning of the word "Christian."

There is no consensus on what the "correct" definition of "Christian" is. There is only a near consensus within individual faith groups. Therefore questions like "Are you a Christian?" or "How many Christians are there in the U.S." are only meaningful:

Within a single denomination, or among a group of similarly-minded denominations.
In a public opinion poll where the definition of "Christian" is clearly stated.



The definition used on this web site:
We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. Included are: the Roman Catholic church; the Eastern Orthodox churches, conservative, mainline, and liberal Christian faith groups; The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons); Jehovah's Witnesses and a thousand or so other religious organizations who view themselves as Christian in North America.


Source:http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn3.htm

You will note that they mention by name: Catholics, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Jehova Witness'.

They also have another interesting article on the subject: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn.htm
 Garf
Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 64
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 2:47:04 PM
And I don't see what your getting at with the facts part as this is really more of a philisophical discussion on how far beliefs can deviate from standard 'christian' doctrine and still be classified as Christain, really quite beyound the 'fact' area.
The original question was: I am truly confused. The religions I listed in the thread title consider themselves Christians yet I here over and over again that those religons are not really Christian religions.

Now I am not well versed in any of them so I truly don't know why they wouldn't be considered Christian if they accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour.

This suggests to me that the OP is looking for something factual, to hold as something to explain something that she didn't understand. I wouldn't want to cloud the issue by turning this into a philosophical debate...since that wasn't the original intent of the thread.

Looking back through your posts I don't see where you stated any 'facts' either,...
"The Catholics have a different structure than the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Anglicans, and the Protestants.
This doesn't mean that they're the ones who are right. That's the way alcoholics think..."I'm right, and everyone else is wrong."
Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are two completely different faiths. They have so little in common, I have no idea why people think they are the same...aside from the fact that they both practice active ministry, by preaching door-to-door, (Which is what God wanted us to do...it's in the Bible) and dressing nice."

What part of that is incorrect, or not factual?
...so maybe instead of declaring your 'winning or the argument', you could give back some sort of reason that something I said was wrong or atleast some reason that somthing you said is right,...
"What I ment
..., but mormons, jws, islamics, and a few other sects aren't christians in the strictest sense in that they don't rely strictly on the bible and its revelations from Jesus himself. These sects were founded at varing later dates by people claiming to be prophets bring more messages from god to the people. This idea is a fundemental shift from the standard thinking of your average modern christian who believes the books of the Bible are the definitive word of god."

JWs are Christian, since they follow the teachings and examples of Christ. No founder of the JW religion ever claimed to be prophetic...quite the opposite, since they abhor false prophets and those bearing false claim to the word of God. They do however, believe in the word of God, and that the bible is the definitive word of God itself. Mormons and Islamics on the other hand...do believe in prophets, and do not hold the works of the bible as the definitive word of God. Although the lifestyle and teachings of the Mormons are Christian in value, they deviate from the scriptures in the bible so drastically, that they can not properly lay claim to being true Christians, since Jesus told us to be wary of False Prophets.
I've never studied Islam, but they have very drastic views as well, and are not Christian by any definition I have ever heard, from my personal understanding of their faith.

With the exception of referring to Tom Cruise as the wrong faith, everything I said was correct. I wouldn't waste my time in here posting drivel. Most people here are very knowledgable of religion, and others are learning. I wouldn't want to say anything that would give other people the wrong message, this is why I do research before posting.

Everything else you said so far ndkofep, I have agreed with, as far as the philosopies are concerned. Some facts could be debated, but there's always room for debate in these threads, lol.
 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 65
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 3:08:16 PM
{while I am sure mardioluv, you have your own opinions on what religions are christian perhaps wikipedia is a better authority.



Within Christianity numerous distinct groups have developed with beliefs that vary widely by culture and place. Since the Reformation Christianity is usually represented as being divided into three main branches:

* Roman Catholicism: The Roman Catholic Church, the largest single body — which includes several Eastern Catholic communities — as well as certain smaller communities (e.g., the Old-Catholics), with more than 1.085 billion baptized members.

* Eastern Christianity: Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Eastern Orthodox Churches (including Western Orthodox churches which preserve Latin practices while accepting Orthodox theology), with a combined membership of more than 240 million baptized members.

* Protestantism: .Numerous denominations and groups such as Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Evangelical, Charismatic, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Anabaptists, and Pentecostals. The oldest of these separated from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th-century Protestant Reformation, followed in many cases by further divisions. Some Protestants identify themselves simply as Christian, or born-again Christian. Others, particularly among Anglicans and in Neo-Lutheranism, identify themselves as being "both Catholic and Protestant". Worldwide total ranges from 592 to 600 million.

Other denominations and churches which self-identify as Christian but which distance themselves from the above classifications together claim around 275 million members.

These include African indigenous churches with up to 110 million members (estimates vary widely),

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also called Mormons) with more than 12 million members,

Jehovah's Witnesses with approximately 6.6 million members,

and other groups. Most of these groups were founded by Protestants.}

I agree I wasn't far off , except with the spelling of Presbyterian maybe LOL, but yeah the Eastern Orthodox I have little familiarity with, I just know them by their national sunb-divisions.

But the other ones (JW, LDS, Gnostics, Arianism, Utilitarian,Christian Science etc) that if you examine their theology and put it in the light of scripture you will see that they do NOT deplay the similarieties or consisitancies with the Bible as The Three Major Sub Divisions do.
 squirrly
Joined: 6/8/2005
Msg: 66
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 3:14:50 PM
^^^ that is purely by YOUR interpretation of the scriptures...not theirs. Who is to say you are right and they are wrong?
 Ratero-park-man
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 67
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 3:22:49 PM
I was just asked a question by the gentlenmen before i think that alaska man or something and I just wanted to show him how i saw Christianity in terms of so-called groupings. I just gave WHAT I REMEMBER READING from a book in 2001 and thats what I put, and then for the other info i gave, well No fofense to anyone and please don't misunderstand me, i mean I don't have any issues at all with those individuals personally. I was saying based on what I was taught and heard from other people ,that those others that I listed do not really consistently follow the essense of the Bible as we know it, that is it's doctrines about Christ, the Trinity, salvation, redemption, after life, lifestyles etc.
 squirrly
Joined: 6/8/2005
Msg: 68
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 3:29:43 PM
In actual fact, JW's believe themselves to be closer to what the apostles and early followers of Christ were because they believe their faith is untainted by pagan beliefs which have slowly been adapted by the larger faiths like catholics and protestants such as christmas and easter. Holidays which began as pagan festivals. Tell me what Christmas trees, Santa, Easter bunnies and eggs have to do with any actual christian belief.
 Garf
Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 69
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 6:24:01 PM
Oh wait... I know this one, lol.

As the civilized nations and the Britons invaded/discovered new colonies, the easiest way to indoctrinate the new colonies, was to allow for a certain amount of their own beliefs and customs to be adopted by Christianity, to make the transition easier.
As new colonies and discoveries were founded, new cultures adapted to the new ways, and adopted Christianity as their own.

As Christianity, the way the Britons taught it, evolved over the years...it had adopted so many pagan rituals and ceremonies, that it has more to do with Paganism than true Christianity does.

Celebrating birthdays, for example, is a pagan tradition...and has nothing to do with Christianity.
There are two birthday parties in the bible. People were killed at both of them.
Jesus told us not to remember his birth, but to remember his death which was the ultimate goal of his existance here on Earth.
I guess that's why we celebrate Christmas...because he told us not to celebrate his birth...lol.
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 70
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 7:08:44 PM
Garf
Can you tell me where in the bible Jesus said not to celebrate his birth? Was just curious because I never came across that one.
Thanks
 squirrly
Joined: 6/8/2005
Msg: 71
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 7:22:35 PM
Jesus didn't tell us to celebrate or not celebrate his birth.

the fact is that the only birthdays mentioned in the bible were not causes for celebration.

The bible does however say that a man's death is more important to celebrate than his birth. Hence the reason the JW's don't celebrate birthdays.
 alaska2004
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 72
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 7:35:00 PM
Luke 1:14 ...many shall rejoice at his birth... That was wrote about the birth of John the baptist. So the rejoycing of a birth does exist in the Bible.
 seriouslyfunnylady
Joined: 5/10/2005
Msg: 73
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Posted: 4/25/2006 7:50:16 PM

And in the same encyclopedia, under the heading "Natal Day," we find that the early Catholic father, Origen, acknowledged this truth: "...In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is ONLY SINNERS (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into THIS world".


This is the closet I came to finding any kind of religious reference to NOT celebrating your birthday.
 allh2h
Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 74
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 11:03:11 PM
Another reason JW do not celebrate birthdays or holidays is because the think that EVERYDAY should be special like a holiday. SO there is no point in making one day special with gifts when all days should be celebrated like that.
 allh2h
Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 75
Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists
Posted: 4/25/2006 11:05:12 PM

Nope ,Mormons are not because they don't see Jesus christ as the Supreme and ONLY way to Heaven. They have different doctrinal teachings and their Theology is different also.

Well there is God too, but doesnt that apply to Christianity in general?
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