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allh2h
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Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 26 | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/28/2006 3:01:24 PM | As a friend of some Mormons (and ex-Mormons), let it be known, as a person who's clearly non-Mormon, that not all non-Mormons believe that folks in the LDS church are pro-polygamy. Additionally, anyone reading any book written by someone who bitterly left ANY religious group should take the extreme portions of their writing with a grain of salt. Trust me, as a non-religious person, I too, have to deal with assumptions that are unnecessarily skewed and false. It really sucks when those who disagree with you put words (or beliefs) in your mouth!
With that said, though, I would hope that such false, hasty accusations don't mean that ANY criticisms or reasons for not at all believing in the LDS faith are the same.
Check out 2think.org - a great site by a guy who was Mormon, and a very intelligent, fair guy, at that. He has even defended against some outlandish accusations toward the church, but also describes why it, along with most religions in general, are severely problematic. It's a comfortable, non-commercial place, check it out. He used to have a sister site about the church, but I don't know what the exact address is. 2think is just a site dealing with religion in general, but Mormonism takes notice many times, along with good (and also sometimes upset) folks from the church writing in. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/25/2006 1:00:18 PM | i havent been a practicing LDS for some years now, a personnal choice - i was always being told how to live my life by the book but on the flip side the ones teaching me where doing as they pleased. I have read a study that the blood line from the book of morman, the pilgrims who made the long journey to America, they found no link what so ever to the people who are thier so call decendents? No middle easten genetics? gives some thing to think about. | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 29 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/25/2006 8:55:24 PM | I have Mormons that try to convert me all the time. Why do I need Joseph Smith when I already got Jesus. Is Jesus not enough? Furthermore the Bible is the most historically accurate book we have in the world today with well over 5000 transcripts testifying that it is true. So then the book of Mormon would be the most historically inaccurate book in existence today. For example if the book was translated using some magical goggles from reformed Egyptian, why of all languages King James English? I mean if the book was about North America how about a native language from North America. Mormonism is like the banjo the only religion that is truly from this continent and you need to be an ignorant gulliable brainwashed person to believe that it's true.
My opinion is that you don't need more than Jesus. Here is Paul talking about being plagued by a demon.
2 Corinthians 12:8-10
8. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.
9. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
10. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Jesus tells him that his grace is suffcient so why do we need Joe Smith when we got Jesus the son of ther most high God? | |
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allh2h
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Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 30 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/25/2006 9:15:15 PM | | Azureorb...I do agree. I do not hold to the whole ideology of religion to begin with but I guess some must have it. And if the peopel that stated these things were saying accurate things, then that would be different. BUt most of the time, it is crap and rumor and there opinion. I can voice my opinion, but this isn't about opinion, it is about what is factual and what is not. Some just cannot see where there opinion ends...tis sad really.... | |
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| american banjo?
Posted: 6/26/2006 8:58:44 AM | AxyL,
Speaking as an ethnomusicology student with a concentration in old-time music, I have to dispute your claim about the banjo being of American origin. While America has certainly made innovations in the banjo, the instrument orginated in Africa.
Trader accounts exist of them up the Gambia from the 1560s whereas they weren't first noted in the Americas till the 1680s in Jamaica.
Tangent aside, I think the South Park episode All About Mormons is worth hunting down. They present the origins of LDS religion in a positive light and while they invent some details left vague in the Book of Mormon, their treatment of the faith is much more positive than their typical offensive send-ups. (don't get all huffy till you've seen it!)
For me, my problems with Mormons stems from negative past experiences. Where I grew up it was a dead heat between the Pentacostals and Mormons who were the most offensive fundamentalists. I realize that my upbringing was scarcely a representative microcosm of all peoples and faiths, but the LDSers back home just weren't happy people to be around. They were offensive and backward and so my expectations of Mormons I meet can't help but be shaded by those experiences.
To sum up, perhaps some of the bad rep that Mormons have acquired is thru people's negative experience with individual Mormons. The solution for LDS folks wishing to change this perception, like members of any misunderstood minority, would be to provide a positive counterexample....to be the kind of person who makes people with my preconceptions say, "you know, growing up I was offended by a lot of the Mormons I met, but Martin Harris is a good guy and maybe there's something to this LDS stuff."
Just my humble opinions. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/26/2006 11:28:10 AM | To Krsitin, for a long time it was thought by many, lds and non-lds that the American Indians were the descendents. I believe even J. Smith made mention of it. What I have noted in my own studies is that no one in the Lds religion has came out with what percentage, what tribes, etc., are directly or indirectly related to the early book of Mormon people. I have also never found a direct teaching/revalation wherein Smith or any other prophet or apostle has said which living tribes are directly connected to the book of Mormon people.
What at present is being acknowledged is that an actual small percentage of the book of Mormon people actually existed here in possible comparison to the larger populations of the native people already living here prior to the book of Mormon era from South America to Alaska. So if they did mix with the native peoples of this contenent or if any remanants of the book of Mormon people did exist through genetics, the trace would be so minute it would not be seen.
Example, we know for a fact that Vikings, Africans, Egyptians and European type people have been to the Americas prior to and after 2000 ad. There are stella, motifs and statues verifying this. So the probability that they mixed with the locals sexually is great. Yet genetics cannot prove it as yet.
What I admire about the Lds church is that thought individual members try and prove the book of Mormon true, the goverment of the church itself leaves it up to one's faith to accept it as true or not true. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/26/2006 5:31:17 PM | To Axyl, "Why do I need Joseph Smith when I already got Jesus? Is jesus not enough?" When Christ came on this earth and began to teach and heal, bringing his new message of love and forgivness, I would bet you any amount Axyl there were a majority of Jews (who came to know of Christ and his message and of the apostles and desciples that continued to preach his message after leaving this Earth) who said exactly what you said except it came out, "Why do I need this Jesus of Nazareth when I have Moses and the prophets? Are they not enough?"
My point is not whether J. Smith is or isn't a prophet. It is that people without really having an open mind to consider his message judge what they have heard mostly from others and close the door on any acceptance of the issue. When the Old Testament was being put together from generation to generation by prophets, kings and rulers, the same message from God was repeatedly given by all the authors who wrote their piece of the OT. God continually told his prophets to tell the people how to live righteously.
Though the book of Mormon is only less then 200 years old, I read it to see how well it matches the teachings of the old and new testaments. I found a great amount of similarities. I found no offense. Was it possible God talked to someone else besides the Jews? Well with God all things are possible so who was I to say he would not do such a thing? And did God declare he would only give his written word to the Jews and no one else? Has God declared that after the New Testament prophets and apostles all died he would never again speak to mankind through a prophet? No. He did not. But we in our teachings now read certain verses to mean God has stoped speaking to us by revalation as he did from Adam to the apostles. We teach that. We teach that God cannot speak to us through prophets because we have a Bible. Unfortunately, that teaching is not from God anywhere in the Bible.
So I do keep an open mind and do not consider the book of Mormon to be a fraud any more then I would consider the Bible to be a fraud. Regardless of there age differances.
I also understand that the early prophets of the Lds religion said somethings that are hard to understand. But I do not let it offend me when I consider what kind of things the early apostles and desciples heard from the mouth of the Son of God himself. The NT states the world could not contain all that Christ spoke. That allows me to imagin that if I heard only a fraction of some of his words, that were not written down, they also would be hard to understand and accept.
We are men and women of traditional teachings just like the Jews of Christ's time. If anything different then what the Bible teaches is presented to us, about Christ, even if it is similar, we reject it. When Christ began to give those Jews a taste of heavenly reality, I am sure much of the rejection he delt with came from people who could not let go of their traditional teachings of God that they had been raised with from the Torah and other writings since childhood.
Just my thoughts. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/27/2006 3:20:01 AM | I was baptised a LDS a few years ago but found i couldn't take anyone seriously who denied the existance of dinosaurs and who believed we all originate from adam and eve. There are a few things i disagreed with but whoever i spoke with about them gave me the same answers, i am afraid if someone refuses to have an open mind about things then there is no point even discussing it with them so i left the church.
I am not saying the mormon church is wrong in its beliefs, nor am i saying any other religion is wrong, it just seems to me that if you actually believe in God or a Devine spirit and a Christian way of life you would act in a more christian way to fellow human beings on this planet. We as a species are unwilling or unable to just live and let live without persecuting other faiths or races for thinking different things to ourselves.
All religions are guilty of it and as such i opted out of that way of thinking.
You all know deep inside what is right and what is wrong, Believe in a greater good and stop trying to force beliefs on other people, we all have a spiritual journey to make and it is up to each and every one of us to choose which one is right for us, after all didnt God give the human race the greatest gift of all ? Freewill and a right to choose for ourselves. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/27/2006 10:47:46 AM | Very good points Chris.
The only wrench I'll toss in here is from the NT....Eph. 4:5...one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
If we are to believe this verse, that this one faith exists in our time, then of all the thousands and tens of thousands of religions that do exist on this earth teaching of God, only one has the truth for how to worship God and the rest are incorrect.
All reigions all believe they are the one true church of God. The Lds included. God did give the freewill of choice. It is why we have so many Christian religions now.
I myself believe the true church of god is going to have apostles, prophets, bishops, ministers, missionaries, deacons, teachers, eldres, etc., just as the NT church had. The two Christian religions on this earth that come the closest to the early church is the Catholic church and the Mormon church. But I like the Mormon faith mostly because they do not teach that the prophet is infallible. Moses, Lot, David, Peter, Doubting Thomas, Judas, all showed no matter how close to God you are, we are all susceptible of error in action or word. They also proved through repentance you can be forgiven.
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 36 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/27/2006 11:52:13 AM | I would bet you any amount Axyl there were a majority of Jews (who came to know of Christ and his message and of the apostles and desciples that continued to preach his message after leaving this Earth) who said exactly what you said except it came out, "Why do I need this Jesus of Nazareth when I have Moses and the prophets? Are they not enough?"
You miss the point completely Alaska, Jesus was the promised Messiah the Jews that didn't want anything to do with him were the same ones that plotted his death.
Consider this;
Isaiah 28:16 (New International Version)
16. So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.
There is no prophesy on Joe Smith in the Bible anywhere, but much on Jesus in fact if the Bible is the most historically accurate book in existence today then the story must also be true. So I accept Jesus and reject this Joe Smith guy completely. In other words I am not a gullible wanderer searching for a SAVIOR because I have JESUS CHRIST.
What more could you need than that?
BTW I'll take the Million in a cashiers check since you said you would bet any amount...!
Send it to 777 Jesus Blvd. Heaven 123456 | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/27/2006 1:33:11 PM | Good reply Axyl. And um, that check's in the heavenly air mail right now!
I don't think I missed your point though. You declared why would you need someone like J. Smith when you have Jesus? I understood your point. But who did God give his revealed words to so the populace would know the will of God? To prophets. And millions to hundreds of millions of Christians believe the same exact thing. "Why should we listen to anyone declaring themselves a prophet when we have Christ?
That belief is fine and well if you trully believe that God won't or cannot speak to us through prophets anymore.
If you read Amos 3:7 you will see it is stated that the Lord GOD will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. The prophets, whether just one or several appearing at the same time (as happened in the OT) were the news carriers of God. If you wanted to know what God wanted of you, you did one or two of two things. You could rely only on what was previously written if you didn't believe or accept someone present was a prophet to know God's will or, you could depend on what was written and listen to the new prophet to know what new things were being said of God.
It is not a new thing for people who believe in God to refuse to accept the possibility that a new prophet might be in town and instead rely on the older written scriptures of prophets and kings that could be a hundred or a couple thousand years in age.
No prophet is a savior. I have as yet never met a Catholic or Mormon who has declared to me that the pope or J. Smith is their savior and not Christ. If you have, you need to do the right thing and show them the error's of their own belief. I would. And about J. Smith being in the Bible, I've nothing to ad to that anymore then I would verify that every prophet before they came to be in the Bible was prophesied of. Not sure of your point on that one though. I have heard the Lds try and show J. Smith was spoke of in the Bible but not by name.
One more thing, on the pretend scenario that J. Smith and the pope are prophets, for most to deni and not accept them as such would be the normal course. Read Mark 9:38-39. Here is a prime example of a man fully accepting God and Christ but totally deniing the apostles or any other position of the church Jesus was setting up. He did not follow the apostles or desciples, etc. He had his own belief in Christ and taught and cast out devils in the name of Christ. Do notice that Christ did not say what he was doing was all well and correct. He said he that is not against us is on our part.
If you wish only to believe in the word of Christ as taught to us by himself and the prophets and apostles it is a good choice. I also believe the same as you, but I do keep an ear open, a mind ready to possibly accept a person as a prophet of God who will reveal to us things pertinant in our time and era. Things are much different now then 2000 years ago. In my opinion, J. Smith is the closest thing to a prophet as I have as yet read of.
To each his own!
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AK338
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Joined: 3/14/2006
Msg: 38 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/27/2006 2:45:42 PM | | Alaska......regarding your comment on closest religions today to the NT church......the catholic church and the mormon church? I realize you have done a lot of studies yet am bewildered as to how you came to the conclusion that these 2 churches are the closest to the NT early church...1)The early church kept the Sabbath (Saturday, not Sunday)(read Acts).....2)the early church abstained from idol worship.(Mary for example)..3) occultism was forbidden (Joseph Smith was a mason and practiced divination)....4) "but though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8)..then what is the book of mormon????(claims to be another testament of Jesus on the front cover ).5) the catholic church has rewritten the 10 commandments (no commandment for them on idol worship and the changing of the Sabbath to Sunday worship))..6)...The Bible says "all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God"........the catholic church claims Mary was without sin.....7) the Mormon temple (Salt Lake City/Nauvoo)) has numerous new age and occultic symbols. (images of Baal, pentagrams, masonic symbols, all-seeing eye etc.)8) the mormon church practices baptism for the dead )the Bible says in Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee; death canot celebrate thee:they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth" and Psalms 48:7 "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him"...8) the catholic curch encourages and believes in the intercessory prayers of the saints in heaven, whereas the Bible teaches that Jesus is our only mediator to the Father 9) and , yes, they do still believe in purgatory which is not biblical whatsoever...and denies the perfect and complete sacrifice and atonement for our sins by Jesus on the cross.. This in between state of the dead is also taught in mormonism .. Alma 40:21 in the book pf mormon states " there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery of until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth" whereas the Bible says in Psalm 146:4 : His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"....10) mormons also teach that humans existed before this life as spirit beings or souls .. the Bible says in Genesis 2:7 :And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a LIVING SOUL" (as opposed to a dead , non -existent soul)....We were not given a soul, but were given the life giving spirit of God, to become living souls and when that breath of life goes back to God, we become dead souls, oblivious to time and thoughts until the resurrection of life when Christ returns to call us forth from the grave...if we are already in Heaven as many believe when we die, then there would be no need for a resurrection....Martha understod that her brother Lazarus would "rise again in the resurrection at the last day"(John 11:24): and Jesus Himself said Lazarus was sleeping (verse 11 )'and 'Lazarus is dead" (verse 14 of John 11). He did not call Lazarus down from heavenly places but called him forth from the grave when he raised him from his grave ..11) I have mentioned but a few of the doctrines that are being taught as truth...I stand not in judgement of the many wonderful people I know who ar involved in these religions, but stand against what the churches are teaching as not being Biblical, and yes, we all have free will and choice. it is what we do with the choices and information that we are given that can decide our eternal destination " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16)....What a day that will be and til that time we can assuredly leave the salvation, and judgement of those who have died with Jesus, as we know not the inner workings of any man's heart......God bless you in your search for Truth. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/27/2006 9:35:58 PM | AK338, I really like post's like yours. First I was refering to the govermental structure of the two churches in comparison to the govermental structure of the NT church. Not their beliefs. I should have made that clear. Sorry.
Of the Bible and book of Mormon, try doing a study of how they relate. There are more simularities then contradictions between the two. They both testify of Christ as Lord and Savior, etc. They both contain histories of people who believed and didn't believe in God and or Christ. They both speak of wars, prophecies, etc., all pertaining to Christ. If all you want to see are contradictions, lets do a project. We'll go through the Bible first to see how many contradictions and errors are in it compared to the book of Mormon.
Lets do to the Bible characters as people do to Smith. It is only fair.
Noah, a drunk.
Moses, a murder.
Lot, committed incest. (It says he was drunk and passed out, uh-huh.)
David, indirectly with purpose got a man killed to have his wife. Murderer and adulterer.
Solomon, had many, many wives, some of an age that would get him the infamouse name of pedophile I would guess.
Peter, had a violent streak (cut off a Roman guard's ear) and denied knowing the lord to save his own skin.
Judas, thought money was more important then his belief, even if it involved an innocent man.
Doubting Thomas, went from believing to disbelieving like a non-believer. Had to have proof in order to believe again.
Paul, a man once directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths and murders of how many people?
Now, let's pretend that I am a non-believer and you have introduced the Bible to me. I spend a couple months reading it. How do you convince me to believe in a book with so many religious type people doing such horrific type things? You don't. You will find a way to justify and explain each thing each person did to convince me to accept them and their faults as God has.
I'm not stating Smith was or was not a prophet but, we can do the same with Smith given time to understand what he did and what he said. I agree he did and said things that are hard to comprehend and understand. But some of the things the authors of the Bible have did and said are also hard to comprehend and understand.
1. The early church in later centuries fell away from using the prescribed jewish day for the sabbath and began to observe the sabbath on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, Sunday, the day of his resurrection. Personally I believe the spirit and sanctity of the Sabbath is what is important, not the day we choose to worship it on. So it was recelebrated on his day of resurrection. I think that was right. My opinion.
2. I agree.
3. Yes he was a Mason. Do you know what a Mason is AK338? Or do you go by the rumors of them being satan worshipping baby killing sacrificing black robed klu klux clan type guys? Check 'em out before you call them occultists. My dad and grandfather and great grandfathers all belonged to the Masons and all were Bible toting, God fearing, Jesus believing men. But not according to you? I guess my g-grandmother was decieved to. She read from a Masonic Bible, (King James Version). Funny how I haven't came across any teachings of Satan in it yet. And of Smith practicing divination, you'll have to give me something specific. I know as a boy he had a few occassions to find things by looking at a rock in a bag. I know he failed more at finding things then having found anything. And personally, I haven't found anything in the Bible that says it is a sin to look at a rock to see if it will show you where treasure is. That's more down the line of wishful thinking I believe, not occultism or divination.
4. You need to read Mark 9: 38 to 40. Here's a man matching your Galatians verse. Though the apostles thought he was totally wrong in his belief of Christ, through teaching and or healing, "another gospel" so to speak, Christ thought other wise.
5. No comment and already spoke of the sabbath.
6.I agree I have heard this. I don't know the truth of it though.
7.Everything on the outside of Mormon temples will be told and explained of by those running them. Information of them is on the internet. You can call them what you will. But to address them as occult symbols, you need to stop and do some Bible history. Solomons Temple also had your termed "occult" symbols that God authorized to be carved into the temple. The Jew's themselves wore occult type symbols you could say also, the braided locks, the skull cap, the tasseled jacket, the long beards, they were all symbolisims of one thing or another. Symbolisms adorned the Ark of the Covenant. Do not think God is not about symbolisms, even if Smith used some.
8.Agree.
9.Of the parables spoken of by Christ, I think we can agree that Christ was doing his best to teach a truth. First question; when we die, where do you think we go Ak338? Not to be judged because that happens at the end of time when all have came and died for this earth, Revalations teaches that. So between death and the judgement day, where do you think our spirits go? To stay asleep in the grave? You should read Luke 16: 19 to 31. It teaches about an inbetween spirit world where we go after the body dies to wait the day of judgement. So do many Christian religions and preachers. Smith believed it to. So do the Catholics. Your psalms verse, it does not tell me when I die I am dead as a door nail. And the teachings of God throughout the Bible contradict your meaning of that verse. The spirit is alive and well while in the body and out of it. (See statement made to the thief on the cross.) Maybe he is an exception and the rest of us aren't?
10.The first creation in Genesis was a spiritual creation before a physical creation. Read Genesis chapter one. All things were created in a spiritual form between the first and sixth day. The seventh God rested. On the eight day, chapter 2, the one following the 7th day, name it as you want, we begin to read of the creation of the "soul" of all things living. The soul came to be when God breathed the breath of life, Adam and Eve's spirits, into a physical form. Other verses state we were spirits before we were joined to a body. We have spirits (angels, good and evil) coming to our world through out the Bible's history. If you read Isaiah and Revalations, You will learn prior to this earth's physical creation, there was a war in heaven between Satan and God. Satan wanted to be God. God cast him out and 1/3rd of the spirits of heaven went with him. They were imprisoned to this earth in a realm we cannot see. Now who do you think the other 2/3rds were that chose to stay and obey the will of God? If that does not prove we were spirits existing before the creation of the body, nothing will convince you. You see verses that convince you we are dead to all things when we die and I see verses that say we still live on in a spirit form.
And God bless you to!
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 40 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/28/2006 6:00:03 PM |
Lets do to the Bible characters as people do to Smith. It is only fair.
Noah, a drunk.
Moses, a murder.
Lot, committed incest. (It says he was drunk and passed out, uh-huh.)
David, indirectly with purpose got a man killed to have his wife. Murderer and adulterer.
Solomon, had many, many wives, some of an age that would get him the infamouse name of pedophile I would guess.
Peter, had a violent streak (cut off a Roman guard's ear) and denied knowing the lord to save his own skin.
Judas, thought money was more important then his belief, even if it involved an innocent man.
Doubting Thomas, went from believing to disbelieving like a non-believer. Had to have proof in order to believe again.
Paul, a man once directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths and murders of how many people?
Now, let's pretend that I am a non-believer and you have introduced the Bible to me. I spend a couple months reading it. How do you convince me to believe in a book with so many religious type people doing such horrific type things? You don't. You will find a way to justify and explain each thing each person did to convince me to accept them and their faults as God has.
Now lets do to all religion what Jesus did to religion while he was here man does not save man God does.
Top Ten Reasons to Believe in Christ rather than religion
1. CHRIST IS SOMEONE TO KNOW AND TRUST.
You can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ without the need for intercession by religious organizations. Christ hears all men not just those of a certain religious affiliation. Fellowship is important for growth but beware of religionists doctrine and dogma.
2. RELIGION IS SOMETHING YOU DO
Jesus is someone whom you can believe and depend on always. Religion cannot save you, only Jesus can Ephesians 2: 8-9 says For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
3. RELIGION CANNOT CHANGE YOUR HEART
Jesus said this of the Pharisee's in Luke 11:39-40 Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
God can change your heart for the better religion cannot.
4. RELIGION MAKES MOUNTAINS OUT OF MOLE HILLS
Many religions do not allow free thinking they program youngsters to be ignorant by telling them that any who don't believe as they do hate them. If any ask questions that sound subversive they are warned then ostracized by even their own families. God calls us into fellowship with him through prayer and worship and promises to send us help through his Holy Spirit.
5. RELIGION IS ABOUT APPROVAL BY MEN RATHER THEN GOD
God see's our hearts and has the ability to change even the most hard heart and all it takes is intercessory prayer of a believer to accomplish what never could be done by man. God tells us in Romans 12:14 to "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse".
6. RELIGION TURNS US INTO HYPOCRITES
Religion tells us to dress a certain way, talk a certain way, behave a certain way, even what to eat and drink, show partiality to those that fit the criteria of this certain way. God accepts us as we are with no criteria whatsoever John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Notice it says whoever that would include anybody and everybody. God is impartial and cannot lie.
7. RELIGION MAKES OUR LIVES HARDER
With all the rules that most religions have it is hard for the average person to live up to the expectations of the religionists when they themselves usually can't either. Jesus speaking in Luke 11:46 said this "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
8. RELIGION MAKES IT EASY TO DECEIVE YOURSELF AND OTHERS
Ignorance is a disease that religionists take advantage of regularly by misleading people with things such as scripture or God can only be understood by the religionists and not the common man. Jesus said this in Matthew 19:23-26 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
9. RELIGION FOSTERS IGNORANCE
By depending on religionists for information you fall prey to their hidden agendas. If we read our Bibles and rely on God and do as he informs us to test all things spiritual we would not fall prey to the wolves in sheep's clothing as Matthew 7:15 tells us "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves".
RELIGION IS THE BAIT OF SATAN
It attacks you when you are most vulnerable most people search for God when in pain seeking relief most religionists know and understand this and prey on people in their most weakest times. Religionists try to turn you against others that don't believe as they do even your own family becomes infidels in the eye's of most religionists.
The Mormon thing is definitely a religionists organization! | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 6/28/2006 7:19:01 PM | Well said Axyl, I don't disagree with anything. I myself believe that a person believing in God and obeying the commandments through their faith or through their faith and a religion is doing well. My opinion.
Of not liking religions or not wanting to affiliate with one, Mark 9; 38 to 41 is proof that even when Christ walked the earth and was establishing his own church, begining with the 12 apostles, men had the choice then as now to accept or reject organized religion.
The Bible clearly states as you did from the scriptures you mentioned that the then established jewish religion apparently left a bad taste in his mouth. I am sure he wanted to see it return to an uncorrupted organization of God but with all the added man made laws and rules and traditions added since Moses, he saw it wasn't going to happen. They were too caught up in their old ways to become something renewed. Imagin it, Jesus Christ, the Son of God himself was there to teach them if they would but listen and they shut their ears to his words. And even a portion of those that did believe in him (see above verse) chose not to follow him directly, but in a manner comfortable for themselves that the apostles thought was wrong to do. Jesus did not disagree with them. What he did say was to leave a person alone who believed and taught and could even perform miricles in his name alone. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/4/2006 9:32:39 AM | | Just for those that would like to understand how Mormon's think and believe about God, Christ and the Holy Ghost there is an informative talk at www.beta.lds.org by their president Hinckley called "In these three I believe." The way he describes the working of the Godhead is how I have believed myself before I ever knew the word "Mormon." | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/4/2006 5:58:58 PM | The Plain Truth about the Mormons
The Mormon movement began with "the prophet" Joseph Smith, Jr. in the year 1820. Joe (as he was known) was born to some rather strange parents in 1805. His mother, Lucy, was involved in occult practices and visions, while his father, Joseph, Sr., consumed much time with imaginary treasure digging (including the booty of Captain Kidd).
According to Mormon writings (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:1-25), on a day in 1820, Joe was praying in the woods when he received a vision from God the Father and Jesus. It was revealed to Joe that the church was in apostasy and he was the chosen one to launch a new dispensation.
Being unwilling to drop his current occupation of money-digging with his father (while using "peep stones" and "divining rods"), Joe put his "calling" on hold for three years. Then, according to his own account (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:29-54), he was paid a bedside visit by the angel Moroni in 1823. Moroni, who professed to be the glorified son of a man named Mormon (who had been dead 1400 years), told Joe about a book of golden plates which contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." This book was said to have been buried at Cumorah Hill, near Palmyra, New York, some 1400 years earlier by the man named Mormon. Four years later (1827), Joe supposedly dug up the golden plates along with a gigantic pair of spectacles which he called "the Urim and Thummim." The spectacles were for translating the hieroglyphics on the plates. With the help of his only legal wife and a friend named Oliver Cowdery, Joe translated the plates and published the Book of Mormon in 1830. Later that same year, Joe, his wife, his brothers (Hyrum and Samuel), and Cowdery established the "Church of Jesus Christ," which is known today as the "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints."
The Book of Mormon contains many plagiarisms of the King James English (at least 25,000 words). This is strange since the plates were supposed to have been in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible was completed in 1611! The Book of Mormon also contains many errors such as claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere and advanced metal producing capabilities in America before 400 A.D. (See Walter Martin''s Kingdom of the Cults for a fine study in the errors of the Mormon Bible)
The Mormons, under Smith''s command, turned out to be a rough bunch. Joe was a polygamist with at least twenty- seven wives (some say over 60 wives). The whole gang left New York for Ohio, and then moved to Missouri. The Missouri governor ran them out of the state, so they settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, and built the state''s largest city. In 1844, Joe and Hyrum were thrown in jail. Then an angry mob stormed the jail and murdered them both. Naturally, this "martyrdom" insured the perpetual reverence of the great "prophet" Joseph Smith.
The "church" then split. The Smith family headed for Independence, Missouri and started what is now the "Recognized Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints." However, the majority of Smith''s followers chose Brigham Young as their new captain.
To escape U.S. laws, Young led the Mormons from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City in 1847 (which then belonged to Mexico). For the next thirty years, Young and his "saints" laid the foundation stones of the Mormon cult.
Little known to most Mormons, Young was a rather rough and ruthless character. In 1857, he commanded Bishop John D. Lee to murder a wagon train of over one hundred helpless non-Mormon immigrants. Twenty years later Lee was convicted and executed by the U.S. Government. Young escaped punishment, and his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre has escaped the Mormon history books.
Young spent most of his "ministry" dodging the law to continue the immoral practice of polygamy. At the time of his death in 1877, Young had seventeen wives and fifty-six children.
Today the Mormon church is administrated by its "General Authorities." These authorities consist of the "First Presidency," the "Counsel of Twelve Apostles," the "First Quorum of the Seventy" and its presidency, the "Presiding Bishoprick," and the "Patriarch of the Church."
Male Mormons over twelve years of age are divided into priesthoods. The Aaronic order is the lesser priesthood, and the Melchizedek order is the higher.
The church is divided into thousands of "wards" and "stakes," with over 2000 branches and 180 missions, and over 5,000,000 members.
Mormons are very missionary-minded people, with over 26,000 active missionaries. However, much of this missionary army consists of young men and women in their early twenties who must serve two years in missionary work while supporting themselves.
I think "presiding Bishoprick says it all....and his pal(gotta love it!) Moroni...(and people buy this stuff) L.Ron Hubbard said it best~ The best way to get rich is create a pseudo-science or a pseudo -religion. | |
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allh2h
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Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 44 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/4/2006 6:13:58 PM |
work while supporting themselves
They save before hand or there family sends them money. Also the families in the wards feed them sometimes. THe places that they reside are payed for the church not themselves...
where are you getting this information? You did not post your source
My source of what I just posted....experience, I was once one of those families and have many family members that have been on missions. Not to mention friends that have gone, so I know how the money aspect of it works. The apartment that is in town for the Elders to live in while they are here is rented by the church, not them. | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 45 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/4/2006 10:47:13 PM | I feed those poor missionary fellows when ever they come around the last time they were here was yesterday and they asked me to pray if the book of Mormon was the divine word of God so I did and one of them accused me of not being sincere in my prayer.
I asked him how he could judge my heart like that after all the times I've welcomed him into my cool air-conditioned house and feed him and gave him drink when he was thirsty. They then both accused me of being contentious with them.
I then reminded them both that they were in my country and in my home and that they should show more decorum and diplomacy then they were. My friend who was sitting quietly in a corner of the room humbly suggested that we pray again this time Sunday school style with the order pre-arranged they agreed and we prayed again.
After praying with them and not having received the revelation they were fishing for I showed them God's grace and feed them and sent them on their way with an open invitation to come eat when ever they were hungry.
I believe that ignorance is a disease much like cancer or any other disease we don't know much about and feel sorry for it's many victims. | |
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allh2h
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Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 46 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/4/2006 10:54:27 PM |
they asked me to pray if the book of Mormon was the divine word of God so I did and one of them accused me of not being sincere in my prayer.
From what I hae seen of you here, I could jsut imagine the words that came out of your mouth Axyl. I know mormons and I know that they can see people being devious a mile away.
Shame on you for using there desire to share and need for food as an excuse to degrade and preach.
I believe that ignorance is a disease much like cancer or any other disease we don't know much about and feel sorry for it's many victims.
Yes axyl...I feel so sorry for you too. Instead of being an ignorant man trying to feel his presence known by preaching everything and bieng a know-it-all, you are part of the disease. It is sad really, because if you'd just get off your soap box... | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 47 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/4/2006 11:31:45 PM | From what I hae seen of you here, I could jsut imagine the words that came out of your mouth Axyl. I know mormons and I know that they can see people being devious a mile away.
Shame on you for using there desire to share and need for food as an excuse to degrade and preach.
you think I was being devious well lets examine your choice of word here...
de·vi·ous
adj.
1. Not straightforward; shifty: a devious character.
2. Departing from the correct or accepted way; erring: achieved success by devious means.
3. Deviating from the straight or direct course; roundabout: a devious route.
4. Away from a main road or course; distant or removed.
First off allh2h I will point out to you they came to my door with an agenda after talking with them in length and discovering that they sometimes don't eat much more than Kraft dinner I had compassion and decided to give them an open invitation to come and eat anytime they needed it.
Yes axyl...I feel so sorry for you too. Instead of being an ignorant man trying to feel his presence known by preaching everything and bieng a know-it-all, you are part of the disease. It is sad really, because if you'd just get off your soap box...
My soap box you say!
Allow me to educate you this is a public forum open to all who would like to participate as long you follow the rules and the rules state; G) No posting of *Flames or Material intended to start a *Flame War.
Your personal attack on me is not warranted and against the rules of this forum my comment was a generality and not directed toward any particular person as you have done to me here. However I will forgive you because the Bible tells me that if at all possible I should live in peace with all men.
I think I should add this for you allh2h that the Mormon fellow who accused me of not being sincere in my prayer did apologize for his behavior toward me and I forgave him to. | |
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allh2h
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Joined: 3/23/2006
Msg: 48 | |
| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/5/2006 12:12:31 AM | | Axyl I do not need your forgiveness as I did nothing but point out something of your character that I find lacking. In your treatment of people that have done no wrong to you as you have treated others here. If you have a problem with that then take it up with God, it is not something that I can help you with. Trying to make yourself look better to me will only make you look the more rediculous, so you are beating a dead horse there. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/5/2006 12:14:29 AM | I actually congratuate you Magic on your post. It was nice to read things written mostly from correctness of what happened and what is. I do have a few questions. Now for most of any history of the LDS all you have to do is read their own material.
You said somethings I am not familiar with but am not surprised if it written of. Lucy Smith Sr., where did you read she was involved in the occult? Of Joseph Smith Sr., even most anti-LDS sites affirm he was not the one into the treasure digging (not to say he didn't try). It was Joseph. Digging for treasure then was as popular then as it always has been. Joseph Jr. used a stone in a hat to do his treasure searching. That is not an occult thing. Peering into stones, using "witch rods" etc., was a very normal thing at that time by most all who did it. They used these very same items to look for underground streams for wells and gold veins, etc. And Joseph Jr.'s success rate as this great treasure-stone-peeking kid was batting zero. Even got him in trouble once while being hired to do farm labor and to find treasure for a farmer. The farmer took him to court because he didn't finish doing the work. The judge wouldn't address the treasure thing. Everyone talks about all this treasure digging Joseph did but the one item no one mentions, is he never found anything of relevance or importance. The treasure thing has been blown way out of the water. Did he look for treasure with a stone and a hat? He sure did. When he wasn't helping to run his father's farm. Understand the logic here you are by-passing for unsubstantiated rumors. There were several in this family before he married. It was a two room cabin mostly. They were farmers. If the two Joseph's were constantly digging for money, (that they never found) who was putting food on the tables? Clothes on their backs? Shoes on their feet? Seed in the fields? Harvesting the fields? According to anti-LDS people, the two Josephs kept things afloat through their super natural occult devil worshipping ways (while attending Methodist and Protestant churches I'll ad) and and from all the money they got from all the famous treasures they found that no one wrote of. In those days, you could not support a family if you were out all day unsuccessful looking for treasure. Your wasting your time with rumors Magic. I could list pages of "supposed" rumors of the family and religion. It does not make them facts.
I won't argue whether the book of Mormon plagiarizes the KJV or doesn't. But you are aware that portions of the OT and NT plagiarize the myths of the Sumarians? Now what? Should I think bad of the Bible?
Of elephants and horses etc., mentioned in the book of Mormon, those are not errors. You can say they are errors because no evidence has been found to make it true. But untill the early 1900's and later, decades after J. Smith was dead, they have found out that people have sailed from the east to the west when we thought it not possible. Stella's of European males have been found also. Toys with wheels and some unidentifyed animals pulling wagons have been found. People are still saying this and that in the Bible are "errors" because we have no proof this place or that person really existed. But in the face of how far archaeology is pushing us back, most know it is unwise to claim "error" and better to say, "just not proven."
Please send me some sites to visit about J. Smith's 27 to 60 wives. My info on this one puts it at a much lesser figure.
I would like to hear from you what you know of what led up to the Mountain Meadow Massacre? You do know there is no evidence today that directly connects Young with that massacre? And something many do not think about. Why would Young wait to do in a wagon train of people passing through, not harming them when he had more reason to committ one when living back east and suffering regular persecution? Tar and featherings, beatings, people shot and killed, burned out of homes and lands. Do people assume he just "blew it" and took it all out on these people passing through? Once again, common sense addresses this issue with facts, not rumors ans suspicions as is being done. Yes Mormons did committ the deed. Did Young tell them to do it? No. No more then he would have told them to do it under the law of self defense when in the east.
And of polygamy being immoral, only when the Lord says the practice is not needed. Check the Bible on that one.
Missionaries do not work when on thier missions. They are told to earn and save at least $2000. for their mission. If not on good terms with finances (poor, etc.,) the church will help them out. The cars and apartments the drive and live in are usually leased by the church. They are on a honor code not to read any non-church newspapers, non-church magazines and no tv except for church related themes on dvds or vcr tapes. They are often involved in many different community service things that need volunteers. They'll be in regular clothes for some of these occassions. They get one day a week for r&r but usually end up helping ward members move, paint, etc. They have a budget for food, etc. But each Sunday a sign up sheet is passed about in the classes called "Missionay Dinner." They are fed by members very often. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 7/5/2006 12:38:26 AM | | To Axyl, you should contact the nearest LDS church to you and report those missionaries. No missionaries are to be eating meals except with themselves and members familys. It advoids problems that have come up from that in the past. They can accept cookies/deserts of that nature from a member or non-member they know. But not meals. Meal time is that. Meal time is not ministry time and with non-members it can become that and then possible arguments, heated words, etc. So they are TOLD not to do it. They have guidelines to keep them safe. Helping them to (unknowingly) break them (in your case) is wrong either way. You need to report them. There is a stake missionary number in your phone book. They will have pictures for you to make an ID with. Think I'm going over board? Consider what you say happened. That is why there is rules for them to live by. So do the right thing. | |
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especially when the spinoffs from the excommunicated members still call themselves members, it gives the LDS church a bad name.:frustrated: And it is already fighting an uphill battle in some ways, no need to add to it I say. 
The foundation of my beliefs is based on the lessons taught to me by the LDS church so I say live and let live...
