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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/11/2008 11:08:57 PM | Ok...now I may not be a practising member anymore and do not believe a lot of there beliefs anymore but OMG some of the things I have seen in here about the Mormon religion are ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS...and ...lemme clarify, it is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints. - allh2h(d1614515)
"I have more to boast about than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." [ Joseph Smith, History of the Church, v6, pp408-409 (1844) ]
> "Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous. Love is never boastful or conceited." [ 1 Cor. 13:4 ]
> "May the Lord cut off all flattering lips and every boastful tongue." [ Psalms 12:2-4 ]
> "Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No - but on that of faith." [ Rom. 3:27 ]
> "He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory." [ John 7:18 ]
> "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?' And then I will profess unto them, 'Depart from me. I never knew you'." [ Matt. 7:22-23 ]
> "I have more to boast about than ever any man had . . . I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." [Op cit]
> "And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled." [ Isaiah 5:15 ]
> "And Jesus said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but God." [ Mark 10:18 ]
> I wonder if the boastful Joseph Smith might have been overstepping the mark, just a tiny wee bit?
> Soul Union. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/12/2008 1:02:34 PM | "I have more to boast about than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." [ Joseph Smith, History of the Church, v6, pp408-409 (1844) ]
I have seen this quote before. Call me a doubter but when a single piece of a paragraph is quoted about FROM ANYONE to make them look bad...I naturally question the person's intent who post's the cut out quote instead of posting what was said before and after the single piece so all can understand what was being said in it's entirity. I never asked but will ask now, what was the entire piece that this quote was taken from? It is notable that Smith said " I have more to boast about than ever any man had." But is that what his explicit purpose/intention was about in that paragraph? Was he purposefully boasting or was he saying he could boast of many things if he wanted to? | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/12/2008 1:56:36 PM | Call me a doubter but when a single piece of a paragraph is quoted about FROM ANYONE to make them look bad...I naturally question the person's intent who post's [sic] the cut out quote instead of posting what was said before and after the single piece so all can understand what was being said in it's [sic] entirity. [sic] - montanan76
> Unlike you, montanan76, I am not a doubter.
> Soul Union. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/12/2008 2:54:32 PM | Nice dodge Soul....you made the quote so please answer the question I made in the last post....
"I have seen this quote before. Call me a doubter but when a single piece of a paragraph is quoted about FROM ANYONE to make them look bad...I naturally question the person's intent who post's the cut out quote instead of posting what was said before and after the single piece so all can understand what was being said in it's entirity. I never asked but will ask now, .....
"What was the entire piece that this quote was taken from?" | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/12/2008 4:25:41 PM | I naturally question the person's intent who post's [sic] the cut out quote instead of posting what was said before and after the single piece so all can understand what was being said in it's [sic] entirity. [sic] - montanan76
> I am reading a novel called All for Love by Dan Jacobson. It is, according to The Sunday Times, "A compulsive page-turner." I would agree wholeheartedly. It is a remarkable story about Princess Louise of Belgium and Géza Mattachich, stepson of a minor Croatian count. It is a compulsive page-turner.
> In this book, as in millions of other books, fiction and non-fiction, the author has included an introductory quote from some other work. In this case it is from a 17th-century English poet. The selected citation reads:
> "Errors, like Straws, upon the surface flow; He who would search for Pearls must dive below." [ John Dryden, Prologue to All for Love (1678) ]
> Am I supposed to question the 'intent' of every author's quote? If I did that I would not enjoy reading anything.
> I think that you could be an argumentative type. You use the word "dodge", as if I am trying to elude or deceive someone. I merely leave the reader with the words spoken by Joseph Smith from his works. They then have the choice to further their own research. I am not paid to do this.
> Good luck to everyone.
> Soul Union. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/12/2008 5:38:38 PM | Spelling wasnever one of my bests. Entirety. There, I got it right. Don't assume I'll correct any otherspelling mistakes.banana:
"Am I supposed to question the 'intent' of every author's quote?":
When I read Soul, I question anything needing questioning from how something was put together to how the specifics are being used.
As you know, when an author makes reference to a single quote of a usually larger paragraph, there is always a reason for why the entirety of the paragraph was not quoted.
You listed a quote, see below....
"I have more to boast about than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." [ Joseph Smith, History of the Church, v6, pp408-409 (1844) ]
You then give a listing of scriptures describing the Lord's displeasure with people who are or become boastful.
See below........
"Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous. Love is never boastful or conceited." [ 1 Cor. 13:4 ]
> "May the Lord cut off all flattering lips and every boastful tongue." [ Psalms 12:2-4 ]
> "Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No - but on that of faith." [ Rom. 3:27 ]
"He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory." [ John 7:18 ]
> "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?' And then I will profess unto them, 'Depart from me. I never knew you'." [ Matt. 7:22-23 ]
> "I have more to boast about than ever any man had . . . I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." [Op cit]
> "And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled." [ Isaiah 5:15 ]
> "And Jesus said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? There is none good but God." [ Mark 10:18 ]
You then give your own opinion of the quote which is well and fine....that is why we post, to give our opinions.
See below....
"I wonder if the boastful Joseph Smith might have been overstepping the mark, just a tiny wee bit?"
Your scripture references coupled with your last remark make it clear you believe he was being boastful.
So I asked....was he being boastful or was he declaring if he wanted to be boastful he had more then one thing to become boastful about? My other question was what prompted him to make that remark? I still don't know. I have seen this remark used especially by anti-Mormons who make a life from the time they wake till the time they sleep to speak against the Mormons. The problem is that when I do further research into a quote used by them, there is usually more to the quote that they could not reveal least it take away from the punch they were making from that single quote.
I have as yet to of seen the entire paragraph this quote was taken from so my question was actually an honest one. I thought you might of known. But you said you don't know so I will have to search for it. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/12/2008 11:20:47 PM | I guess I found my own explanations and answers.
2 Cor. 7:14 - 11:10 & 16.....14-"For if I have boasted anything of him to you, I am not ashamed;....10-"As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia." 16-"I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool recieve me, that I may boast myself a little.
For those reading the below, I wish not to argue or debate whether Smith was a christian or the Devil's son. I researched this quote and the following is what I found.
You forgot a few scriptures Soul. There are more. Anyway, Smith was speaking before a large group of followers and was reading from 2nd Cor. chapter 11. Smith found similarities between the persequtions of Paul and his own past and present persequtions he went through to have his own belief. A mob came forth led by a couple preachers to disrupt their gathering and began to say and charge things of him. He responed in kind and somewhere in the exchange he felt a need to explain what he had done through his own faith in Christ and what he had established and how far and wide what he had brought forth was spreading across the then known world. He then made the comparison that he had been able to do more for the gospel he preached of Christ then Jesus or the apostles had been a success in doing because soon after Jesus established the first church, he and the apostles soon were all killed and their efforts to spread the gospel by their own voices came to a close.
Smith was not boasting any more then Paul was boasting. They both claimed a strong faith in Christ and their personal persequtions from others cemented what they believed to be true and correct of Christ.
So anyhow that is my explanation. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/13/2008 11:24:49 AM | That was about what I expected......its what I've seen in my lifetime of being around LDS.
"Him? He's harmless! .... I think he did a little too much LDS."
Captain Kirk - | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/13/2008 11:46:47 AM | yeah, its also amazing how the "prophet" Joseph smith was sitting in that room, looking at all of his associates spitting tobacco on the floor, smoking etc .....and then he decides to ask god what he should do about it.... and HEY PRESTO !!!
God decides to give him the words of wisdom!!!yippee! how convenient.
"Listen everybody, gods just said no smokin or hot drinks or alcohol anymore so thats it,gods said it so we must obey"
According to the mormons -
If you obey all of gods laws and do all the mormon church ask you to do etc you get to be a god of another planet or a godess if you are female and you get to rule that planet, and people will worship you!
the catch is you have to be married to get there, (hey but once you get there guys there are as many women as you want up there)
It sounds fantastic doesnt it! No wonder mormons follow the rules so well. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 3/13/2008 1:35:41 PM | | ...and then he sees this hotty and says "you know what boys, God also told me that it's cool if we have more than one wife", and of course you can imagine the response from the boys.....until the US government threatened Utah, then God changed "his" mind, just like God changed his mind about giving african ameicans the priesthood in the 70's.....I know, there are loads of places in the bible where God changes his mind....should be enough to tell you that its not about God as much as it is about what some MAN is saying about God...... | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/1/2008 10:02:43 AM | "*peeks in window*
Are we yet not tierd of Joseph Smith bashing?
*yawns*"
Oft times in life, some find it more advantageous to dwell negatively upon someone who has brought betterment to some in lieu of seeking to find betterment for themselves.
In the end, if it ain’t your cup of tea, don’t drink it. No need to urinate in the cup of another. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/1/2008 12:19:46 PM | nobody is "urinating in anyones cup" what a disgusting way to speak.
This is a forum and we are ALL stating our open opinions. the name of the forum is not"lets talk about all the good things of mormonism" its called "what is it with the mormon thing" and its called a debate.
In the church of lds you are not allowed to question anything, you have to agree because "once the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done"
here we are not in an lds church we are in a forum which is for healthy debate.
however if you wish to go to somewhere one sided, there are a few lds churches you could join, that is if your not a mormon already. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/1/2008 7:35:43 PM | Ahhh Sienna....ya know I couldn't let this little quote go un-replyed to....
"In the church of lds you are not allowed to question anything, you have to agree because "once the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done"
This is actually the way it goes in any church of any religion. Disagree with the founder/present leader and you will be heard but make a noise about it and you'll find yourself escorted out and even asked not to come back if you continue to make a scene.
Like any church, if your there to ask and inquire, people will respond. If your there to ask questions with a tone of disbelief/sarcasm, you shoundn't be there in the first place.
Churches that meet when ever they meet do it to learn the doctrine of that church/religion. If you don't believe, you should not go there. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/2/2008 8:11:54 AM | Sienna, my apologies for the vulgar language. You state:
In the church of lds you are not allowed to question anything, you have to agree because "once the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done"
Although this is, to an extent, an aspect of any religion with a central authority figure, I would like to point out the providence of this quote and a little background. It has been a few moons since I studied Mormonism (I’m currently studying the early backgrounds of Christianity mixed with intermittent Rabbinical writings), but I’m still fairly familiar with this particular recycled quote, and it just so happens that I still have the file saved on my computer from my research of it.
There are several statements by Joseph and Brigham that can be construed in a way that mirrors the above quote, and there are quite a few quotes by Mormon Apostles and General Authorities as well. However, this particular quote was published in the June 1945 issue of the Mormon magazine the “Improvement Era.” It was the “Ward Teaching” message for that month (IIRC, members of Mormonism are assigned families that they are to “home teach” once a month).
The quote appears in the following paragraph:
When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.
Dr. Raymond Cope wrote a letter to the then Mormon prophet George Albert Smith stating his amazement that such a comment was made, and requesting clarification on the position. In his reply, G. Smith stated:
The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.
He then goes on to say:
I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church…
He then talked briefly about Mormonism’s founder’s views on the topic:
The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.
On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."
Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."
I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.
G. Smith then went on to quote a stanza from a hymn (which I assume is in the Mormon hymnal):
"Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven."
This was the Mormon prophet’s views at the time the statement was made, and I think it is only fair to give providence to this leader in lieu of the periodical in which the statement appeared in.
Also, another one of their prophets (one that said some pretty outrageous things, IMO -- Brigham Young) stated that:
I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation… (As found in Journal of Discourses Vol 9, pg 150 -- in the spirit of disclosure, I don’t believe that the Mormon Church views the Journal of Discourses as a doctrinal work though).
Also, in the Mormon canonized scriptures, D&C 9 tells that Mormons are supposed to analyze the things that they are told, reach a decision and then pray for confirmation.
Another Mormon prophet (Joseph F. Smith) stated that:
Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do. (From the Collected Discourses of Joseph F. Smith [edited by Brian Stuy])
As for you little quip that I can go join an LDS Church if I am in need of something one-sided; I have found that few originations of human beings and belief systems are as monolithic as many wish them to be.
Regards,
DS | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/2/2008 11:49:35 AM | hi there. I am not a morman, but i have many friends that are, when i first got morman friend ignorant members of my family bombarded me with anti morman literature, afraid i was going to get my children baptised, but some of the stuff my dad threw at me was outragous. now i have always been of the opinion, if you can not respect people at least respect thier religon.
I am well aware of the practises that go on in the temples and yes some of it may seem strange to narrow minded people but i would never be blindly led into anything. 6 years later i am still living a non morman lifestyle, so all this hatred from my stupid family was all for nothing, and i see my morman friends on a regular basis and i respect them for who they are as they do me. i was told by my father that he got all his stuff from the internet. it is just a shame he could not look further than the end of his nose | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/3/2008 8:15:54 AM | cherry spangle, i respect the mormon people who follow the religeon, they are the nicest people i have ever met.
out of curiosity how come you didnt become a mormon?
the problem i have is that the mormon religion really says that any other christian denomination is not the true church, so if you are church of england, or methodist lutheran, presbitarian,etc the fact that you are baptised in one of these churches, you are following the wrong church and you wont get to heaven, (reason being the vicars dont have the authority to baptise you so it means nothing in the eyes of god) which means that there are millions of supposed christians following the bible, going to church every week etc that are totally wasting their time because they arent mormon. this is the sad part of it all for me. if anyone would like to correct me on that i would welcome their opinions.
Do the mormons respect every other christian denomination by saying that they dont have the fullness of the gospel and they wont go to heaven? | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/3/2008 9:14:06 AM | "...the fact that you are baptised in one of these churches, you are following the wrong church and you wont get to heaven,..."
Sienna, I can help you on this. What you said is not actually true. The Lds believe that to be a part of the highest realms of the celestial kingdom, it requires marriage in a temple between a man and a woman.
For all the rest of the Mormon church and non-Mormon churches ascending to any part of heaven is possible depending on how you live your life and that includes the celestial, terristial, telestial kingdoms.
The LDS church's view of heaven and who goes there is more liberal then most any other Christian/non-Christian religion for who is going to heaven or hell. The Mormon church will teach anyone can make it to heaven if God finds them worthy to be there.
All religions have a basic belief in one heaven and one hell. Most all religions of the world will teach if you are not a part of their church and doctrine, you have no salvation. You will go to hell. Christian churches teach this big time. Most Christian churches will teach if your Mormon you are going to hell. The Mormon's teach just the opposite.
When Joseph Smith declared that all present religions at his time were wrong, he was making a judgement of what they taught, not of where those people of other religions would end up. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/3/2008 3:01:53 PM | | ok so your saying that i could be a mormon, but not be a perfect mormon and go to a half decent heaven but not become a goddess... I think i could live with that, Iv always said the terestial kingdom didnt sound too bad. the telestial kingdom is a bit naff tho isnt it, ?? | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/3/2008 4:41:40 PM | You gave me a really good laugh with your statement....but I'm not laughing at you Sienna...just the way you said that statement..."ok so your saying that i could be a mormon, but not be a perfect mormon and go to a half decent heaven..."
You can be a perfect anything if that is what you wish to attain, even as a Mormon. If you wish not to attain perfection but decide to settle for less you can do that to. What we become in the next realm will be decided upon what we do or don't do here in this place and time with our faith and works. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 4/4/2008 9:43:29 AM | i dont seek perfection in people and i dont wish to be perfect. only jesus was perfect and im not even fit to lick his boots. But to try your best in my opinion is the main thing. i know its not totally related to the topic but i just wanted to say that. glad i made you laugh or smile, not sure if your mocking me, though.  | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 5/8/2008 8:10:09 PM | Sienna...in the Bible it states that there is only one true church that will ever reign. Most churches proclaim that they are the true church. Not just the LDS Church.
It is commonly taught in mainstream Mormonism that if you are unable to be taught the truth (i.e., China, as of yet, will not allow Mormons into their country to do Missionary work or set up churches) or do not 'convert' then you will have a chance to be taught after this lifetime. That way you can then either accept the truth or not.
Just because someone isn't Mormon doesn't mean they aren't going to heaven. And I've never heard one mainstream Mormon that is fully versed in the religion state that.
I was raised Mormon and although I don't practice, I do beleive their principles. I guess the way I see things is that God has chosen different ways of getting through to people. Maybe some people need to be taught differently than others. Thus the various relgions (Muslim, Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, etc). I believe that if you live your life in a manner pleasing to God that it really doesn't matter which religion you are as long as you are not denying that He is the Truth.
~Welder's Girl~ | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 5/9/2008 5:13:24 AM | Welders girl, thank you very much for your post. I too agree with the principles of the mormons, (chastity, no alcohol, no smoking etc) and believe that it is a healthy way of life to live, and you seem to have a very open view of all religeons and its refreshing to hear that you believe that god teaches people differently according to their needs. (im not sure how well that would go down in the mormom church tho)
I believe that if you live your life in a manner pleasing to God that it really doesn't matter which religion you are as long as you are not denying that He is the Truth.
I agree totally with what you say here, Its a shame that isnt the mormon philosophy though.
I am very good friends with an ex mormon missionary, who got sacked for not doing his job properly. He is now clinically depressed cos he feels that he has failed god and feels that the shame will follow him for the rest of his life. =Iv tried to tell him pretty much that who is more forgiving than god and jesus? but as he has been born and bred a mormon, he is absolutely riddled with guilt. This is "what it is with the mormon thing" a lifetime of guilt for not being perfect. | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 5/9/2008 7:05:19 AM | | So Sienna, how exactly did this guy get sacked? I know the rules are strict for any missionary. My brother and three nephews all did missions. What rules was he breaking or not complying with that he was dismissed from the missionary field? | |
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| What is it with the Mormon thing
Posted: 5/9/2008 8:10:32 AM | Sienna...I had a guy that I grew up with get sent home from his mission. He'd been out for about 10 months. He was in a Spanish speaking mission out in California. With his situation, I think it was a good learning experience for him b/c him and his family were always pretty judgemental of others and thought they could do no wrong. I've always been the 'black sheep' of my Ward so to speak. So, when T. was sent home it greatly humbled him and his family. Actually when I returned to NC from KY and went to church with my mom T. came up to me and apologized for all the BS he put me through during our late teen years. I was shocked.
Montanan...the guy I know was sent home b/c he had been dating a non-mormon before he left on his mission. While he was out she converted and started talking the whole 'let's go get married in the temple' stuff. I don't think she was intentionally trying to distract him from his Mission...but that is what happened. He was so caught up in returning home to marry her that it started effecting things. So, from what I understand of the situation, his Mission President, et al thought it was in the best interest of him and the mission field to have him sent home. So, that's what they did. They now have a beautiful little girl and another on the way.
The reason I am not more active than I am is b/c when I was in Seminary in high school my Seminary teacher said to me "___________, if you don't repent of all your sins before you take sacrament this Sunday, you will burn in hell". That's the last time I went to Seminary. She said it in front of the whole class and specifically targeted me. So, I say screw that...which it's not Mormon doctrine anyways, but I felt like if my Seminary teacher was going to judge me...then whatever.
Most folks in my Ward that have watched me grow up will tell you I'm a great person, etc. But there are those that view any sort of deviation from the Doctrine as the be all that ends all. I know one time I went to church and someone was like "Did you see her? Covered in tattoo's like that? I can't beleive that is Sister _________'s daughter." I turned around and was like "What's more important in God's eyes? That I have some tattoo's or that I come to Church?" They didn't have a response for me.
As a whole, I don't have many issues with Mormons...just the ones that choose to judge me.
~Welder's Girl~ | |
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