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| | Re: BDSMPage 7 of 12 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) | Here is a link to a blog on Alt.com. I would normally ask permission from the author but to do this I would have to join the site. For reasons that are patently obvious this is something that I do not want to do.
I only found it at the weekend, so please do not think I have set a trap these past few weeks. I am linking to it because several people on this thread have registered their incredulity that sadism could possibly be mistaken for a cult. Now I have a few concerns about the author, I would question some of his claims, and despite his conclusion, his support for sadism is undiminished. Also I have always found that it is a good general principle not to take too seriously anything said by someone who wears a bandana. Having said that his reasoning is sound, and he seems to have a lot of experience regarding what he is talking about.
For those who express amusement that Sadism could ever be a cult, you really need to read this.
http://tinyurl.com/mhw7k
Neil | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/24/2006 9:56:32 PM | Gee cornelius, you need to go read that blog again if you think that it supports your claim that BDSM/sadism is a cult. I read the entire blog and what Tatu is saying is that there are a few mwmbers of the BDSM community who try to become cult-like figures to their own submissives, not that the BDSM community as a whole is a cult.
Sad to say, there are members of this community exactly as he describes... i have met a few of them. Are you labelling the whole community a cult just because of the actions of a few? I think that if you check, you will find a lot of husbands and wives out there who operate in the same manner.... is marriage also to be called a cult? What about the work world? Haven't you ever seen bosses who abuse their authority and their employees the same way?
In fact, you will find people like these in every walk of life from classroom to boardroom to bedroom and if i were to apply your brand of logic to everything, i would wind up labelling the whole world as an intricate system of cults.
My guess is that at some time or other, you had an unfortunate experience within a BDSM relationship and because of this, you have chosen to direct your venom at the BDSM community as a whole. Reading over your posts, i can see that you are deeply emotionally scarred. My advice to you, "Physician, heal thyself" or find someone to help heal you, then take your ball and go play in someone else's yard. | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/24/2006 10:12:52 PM | Okay, read most of the story more or less...
Subs don't say "No!" That would be a rape fantasy.
Sigh.
You seem sincere...read some books and don't enter into play unless you're with someone you know and trust.
With regard to the story...you've got mixed themes, poor characterization, and some dull dialogue but, ya know...good on ya for working that hard. Getting that much down is more than many can ever do. Keep working it and I bet you can really write. | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/24/2006 10:35:27 PM |
Greeneyze uses the consensual argument which I have addressed above. Does she really believe that people who are lured into cults do so without consent?. No one in any cult goes because they do not believe it is what they want. As soon as they have any inkling that the group is destructive they get out Quick. Sadly people in cults do not realise that they are being manipulated, and they believe implicitly in what the cult teaches them, because they are not allowed access to any information that challenges the dogma. If you do not understand that the parents who fed their children Koolaid laced with poison at Jonestown believed that what they where doing was consensual, then you really need to find out how cults operate.
LMAO...I forgot this thread was out here....seems that I missed something.
If you are asking others what I believe (which is exactly what you did) you won't get an answer. Do I believe that people are lured into cults or do I believe people join cults? Both. The weak minded can be lured, however, many join of their own free will. Mormonism is a wonderful example. You are either converted to it, join it of your own free will or born into it. No matter how you get there, once you are there, you're part of the mass brain washing.
I will say this: Yes, I was brainwashed into being June Cleaver incarnate (for those of you who may not know, that can be the role of a submissive, to tend to the house, children, etc. Sort of a classic 50s marriage...with really great sex!!!) Yes, I was brainwashed by a cult leader ~ my former significant other, number of cult members .... just one, ME!!
If you do not understand that the parents who fed their children Koolaid laced with poison at Jonestown believed that what they where doing was consensual, then you really need to find out how cults operate.
Being that you are the cult expert (or so you want us to believe) maybe you would like to equate your theories to BDSM. Since you are accusing an entire community of being brainwashed, I'd like to know how you think that has been accomplished. Unless you are into the play/party/munch scenes, you'll probably NEVER meet another BDSM lifestyler unless it's purely by chance or on a BDSM site. We don't hold secret meetings, sacrifice animals and discuss our next deviant sexual tryst. We are a very private, accepting community who wouldn't think of judging you and your cult theories, yet you label us without any real knowledge of who/what we are about. In addition, we don't go out "scouting" for newbies. It's a personal journey to get into the lifestyle and it's a personal matter once you are there. Mormons on the other hand have little dudes on bicycles all over the world...now that is cultish!!!
You obviously live in fear and you fear that which you do not know or understand. I promise you ~ you probably have friends and/or family members that are D/s, S/m or possibly a combination of BDSM. We are everywhere you know, seeking out our next victim***evil laugh***  | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/24/2006 10:47:10 PM | Do I believe that people are lured into cults or do I believe people join cults? Both. The weak minded can be lured, however, many join of their own free will.
I was wondering if You would like to join My sex cult?????
two members only...lol
I promise you ~ you probably have friends and/or family members that are D/s, S/m or possibly a combination of BDSM. We are everywhere you know, seeking out our next victim***evil laugh***
Ya Ya YA..promises promises...............just make it hurt Please................  | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/24/2006 10:47:46 PM | As I have said when the information is controlled to such an extent, no one could possibly make a fully informed decision when they only have access to one side of the argument. Personal beliefs are shaped by our experiences, but when these experiences are manipulated by control of information, then some people can find themselves coerced into doing stuff they would never have envisaged before they were exposed to the tainted information.
What about someone who closes the door, but enjoys the company? They want no part of the lifestyle, but find the adherents friendly, and feel ‘safe’ in the peculiar structures of the lifestyle. They end up in an abusive relationship with some gobshite who trolls sadistic environments for fresh meat to abuse. The beliefs may not have been ‘forced’ onto them but the result is much more effective, because then they have been recruited.
I had NEVER encountered a Dom in my life. I spent over two years researching the lifestyle and very specifically ~ the submissive side of the lifestyle. I wrote a thesis on the topic and it was after that when I finally decided to encounter a man from the lifestyle. No one introduced me to the lifestyle ~ I am a natural submissive, born this way. No one manipulated me.
The last of this makes absolutely NO sense. You are comparing a sadist to a wife beater and they are two very different things. You are obviously very uneducated on this subject and it's to the point of not only ridiculous but offensive. Wife beaters are a breed all on their own. Don't group them with our community. The BDSM community is a strong advocate of domestic violence awareness. I don't believe you can say the same about the Catholic church (as a collective group.) Oh...that's right...they are too worried about all of the Priests molesting young boys to be involved in domestic violence education...silly me!!! | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/24/2006 10:54:32 PM |
I was wondering if You would like to join My sex cult?????
Only if you will brainwash me and make me do really bizarre things like wear all black with Nike tennis shoes. I'll hang out with you until the Mothership comes for me!!!  | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 8:31:40 AM | Phew well there is a lot to reply to so lets crack on.
Searcher I used that link because some people in the lifestyle have an attitude that the only opinion that matters are those held in the sadistic lifestyle. I will return to this later, but I used this link so that others couldn’t use the ‘its not from us so they can’t possibly understand’ argument. The author, as far as I understand, doesn’t claim that every aspect of sadism is cultic, in that you are right. If he did come to this conclusion then I am sure he would get out as fast as he could. We could have an argument over what ‘few’ means, but from my reading of the blog he has regularly encountered what he calls ‘families within the lifestyle’ which act in a classic cult way. I think he uses that expression not to describe a family relationship, (dom, sub, offspring) but to describe a grouping that has gained a kind of exclusivity.
Most cults have names ‘The inner church of god the munificent’ or ‘The shinning path to eastern mythological Buddhism (Zen Branch)’ or whatever. He calls them families because they do not have a name, (apart from say a munch or a chat room they use) but are identifiable groupings within sadism that tend to form their own exclusive milieu. From my understanding he has encountered these groups on more than a few occasions, and because of his experience in counselling he has recognised some worrying trends. I didn’t use the link as an appeal to authority, I believe that cultic processes are much more prevalent than he believes, but that is my opinion.
When I first offered the opinion that there is something of the cult about the way sadism operates, you rolled on the floor laughing, someone else said the same a little later on in the thread. This Blog from within the lifestyle will hopefully make you take notice that cults are not a laughing matter, and that there is a the very least, genuine cause for concern about certain aspect of sadism.
Yes I was badly wounded by sadism, not by being involved, but by watching what it did to someone close to me. Cults not only destroy adherents, but also loved ones who recognise the malevolence at work. If you believe that something is wrong wouldn’t you stand up and fight for what’s right?
If this was a purely sadistic board then I would go play somewhere else, I do not troll sadistic sites to have fights with sadists, that would be too easy and totally fruitless. POF is out in the big field, and I am here to make sure that you do not entice innocent people into your strange ball games without letting them know all the hidden dangers. Just to keep them fully informed you understand.
Greeneyez The most common misconception about people who are conned into cults is that they are ‘Weak minded’. Would you blame the victims of confidence tricksters because they are too gullible? Of course you wouldn’t, people who are recruited into cults are victims just like everyone else. Having said that there is quite a bit of opinion in the counter cult community that believes that it is the more intelligent in society who are lured into cults. Intelligent people are more use to a cult than a drug addled drop out. There is a Nobel prize winning Physicist in America who has spent most of his adult life in one cult or another, would you describe him as weak minded? I believe that if there is a common factor in the type of person who is recruited into a cult it is attitude rather than intelligence. For religious cults it is people who need truth when mainstream religions only offer belief. For non-religious cults, it is wanting to try new experiences, for example tantrism, heavens gate, scientology etc. Another trigger for recruitment is approaching people when they are vulnerable, that is why lots of cults recruit on college campuses, students can feel isolated when away from home for the first time. At times of depression, bereavement, divorce anyone of us can fall pray to some really friendly people who seem interested in our problems, but who are really recruiting new acolytes. If you have ever been sold something by a salesman which turned out to be a heap of junk, then you have probably been subject to a mild form of what cults do, only they are not trying to sell you stuff, they want your life.
Maybe your ex brainwashed you, I don’t know, but if you where really brainwashed then you would be under no illusion about what was happening to you. Brainwashing describes the process that many prisoners underwent during the Korean War. Food, medical supplies, even their very survival depended upon their compliance with re-education.
Two of the psychiatrists who dealt with the brainwashed returned POW’s (Singer and Lifton) noticed that some groups in America where using similar, but much more subtle techniques to control adherents, not brainwashing as seen in Korea, but undue influence and thought reform. This is where the understanding of cults comes from, and 50 years down the line much more has been learned about how these groups operate.
I have never claimed to be a cult expert, I just go out and find information about cults, speak in cult discussion groups, and try to do what I can to help those who have been burnt by cults. People who have managed to come out of cults are generally very good at spotting bulls**ters, once bitten twice shy as they say. I can assure you that if I tried to force my own agenda in the counter cult message boards I would be given a much harder ride by them than anything I have received on this board.
The way that you speak about how BDSM operates proves my point and is why I use the word cult. What defines a cult is how they organise themselves, and how they operate. Once you discover how to recognise these processes and systems, cults are easy to recognise. Cults, whether they be religion, neuage, pyramid selling, self-help/improvement, therapeutic or political are recognised because they all use the same processes. They don’t want uncomprehending outsiders stumbling in on their mielu; people are only invited in who are ripe for recruitment. You have to admit that sadism has its own peculiar specialised language, a language that goes far beyond slang.
From the Rick Ross site
‘"Loading the language" is another common theme in a cultic setting. A special jargon that gives the members a feeling of exclusiveness and that they possess some esoteric knowledge. This "loaded language" helps build solidarity amongst an elite group that speak the same cultic verbiage/lingo. It also gives the newcomer yet an extra incentive to become more involved with the group--in order to learn this language and understand what everyone is saying. Loaded Language is characterized by "thought terminating" buzzwords and phrases that constrict thinking and typically replace any meaningful and independent critical analysis. This can become overwhelming and dominate the member's speech and conversation--while also binding the group together through their common language.’
As I have already said I do have knowledge of sadism, although I was not involved myself. I met, through someone I knew, a person who was involved. I found it grotesque, but they didn’t bother me, so I didn’t bother them. Then I saw a cult recruitment take place at close hand, not by the person I was introduced to who was in the lifestyle, but by a sadistic group they belonged too. So you are wrong I do have knowledge about the sadistic lifestyle, so my opinion does count even according to sadism’s rather intransigent rules about who can hold opinions.
I saw meat being recruited, not a personal journey, rather someone being coerced by cultic behaviour and peer pressure to get involved with something they had specifically declared that they did not want. Not the private, accepting community you paint.
‘You obviously live in fear and you fear that which you do not know or understand ’
This phrase is endemic within cults; it is a product of a mindset that allows no criticism of its special belief’s. When a belief is questioned, this is attacked from a position of authority. It is the denier’s fault that they fail to see the evidence in exactly the same light as the adherent. ‘They don’t understand’, transfers the burden to the denier for being unable to comprehend the special truth as the adherents see it, and diminishes their authority within the group.
It is possible to view evidence and come to two starkly differing conclusions, and in many healthy groups this happens all the time, but in the black and white world of cults, adherence to the dogma is the only conclusion that is tolerated. Everything else has to be cast out, shouted down or shunned, elevating the truth, as the cult sees it, to pre-eminence. The cult is the only faction that has the ability to understand the truth as they see it. In their eyes any opinion that questions their truth has no value.
Too take this to its logical conclusion; only murderers are really able to understand other murderers, so only murderers should sit on juries trying murderers. This is patent nonsense.
‘You are comparing a sadist to a wife beater and they are two very different things. You are obviously very uneducated on this subject and it's to the point of not only ridiculous but offensive. Wife beaters are a breed all on their own. Don't group them with our community.’
I never said anything about wife beaters, but if you want my opinion then I will give it. I believe that anyone who hits a woman, whether it be in a drunken stupor, a jealous rage, blind temper, or to satisfy some warped lust, even in the peculiar structures of the sadistic lifestyle, is equally comptemtuous. There is no excuse for hitting women, none whatsoever, and any man who does it no matter what his excuse, drink temper or consent, deserves nothing but contempt. This of course is my opinion but because it contradicts the basic dogma of sadism it doesn’t follow that I am ‘uneducated’, I don’t claim to have any special knowledge that isn’t available to anyone else, I just question what I believe to be inherent nonsense. If you conclude that this makes me ‘uneducated’ then I believe that this says more about you than it does about me.
Best Wishes
Neil | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 8:35:16 AM | | I like the fact that I can be tied up and trust the person that is doing it. | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 10:42:10 AM | | there is nothing more fun than a little "Tie up".... I love it. Men usually are a little hesitant about being tied up but once they try it, and feel the wonders of it.. they love it. | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 11:06:16 AM | Corneilius wrote:
"I am here to make sure that you do not entice innocent people into your strange ball games without letting them know all the hidden dangers. Just to keep them fully informed you understand."
Well corneilius, seems like your plan has backfired. Before this thread began, we had very few inquiries about this lifestyle. In the past couple of weeks, thanks to this thread, we have been flooded with requests for information and have inducted 27 individuals and 19 couples. MissRose has gained another 8 submissives and 2 total slaves.
At this time, we would like to thank you for your assistance in spreading the word about BDSM and ask that you continue to post.
Remember, a very wise man once said "There is no such thing as bad publicity."
bryan | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 12:04:36 PM | wow.. just wow....
Nothing like lets judge the whole damned bdsm scene by the actions of a few.... I mean judging the majority by the actions of minority is always the best thing to do.
Self appointed leader of the cause against bdsm and to eductate the heathen masses on the dangers of sadistic sex fiends.... wow, did you make crazy tapes in the 60's like "Reefer Maddness".... Maybe you should...
I am stunned in disbelief... you made it your personal crusade to spread the dangers of S+M based on the events of someone elses life?
Everyone who partakes in S+M is a danger to society to lure people into the crazy cult to abuse them....
As the cool kids say.... what colour is the sky in your world again? | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 12:41:16 PM | I FEEL SO WELL ADJUSTED! I'm so glad I don't need all that to get off.
Ever notice that people into kinky stuff have all kinds of categories?
The foot/shoe fetishists have "danglers" and "crushers" among others
S&M have "tops" and "bottoms", etc.
It seems all the "deviant" lifestyles are ultra dependant on lables and categories. Anybody else ever notice this?
I myself wonder if it doesn't give them a sense of belonging, a sense of legitimacy to be able to type and categorize themselves and others of their persuasion. | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 12:51:00 PM | | Have you ever noticed that every occupation, religion, lifestyle, culture, sport, etc., has its own "jargon". It isn't peculiar to kink. Everyone categorizes and has their own terms to identify things. It is just a way to simplify things. | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 1:26:05 PM | Congratulations Bryan all them in just a few weeks.
Hang on though wasn't part of your argument that people should be fully informed and not rush into things? is your cult so desperate for members that you have had to start fast tracking recruits? All your checks and balances to make sure that everything is consensual thrown out the window?
Or maybe you have joined Greeneyze on her mothership, journeying to planet sadism where pain is pleasure, slavery is freedom, and your fanatsies of mass recruitment become reality. Well, in your head that is. | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/26/2006 1:29:20 PM | Definately intriguing! | |
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| BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 1:48:19 PM | | I advertise for women who have desires as I have tired of women who are always passive. It is up to the woman how often she wants to act out her fantasies. I draw the line at severe pain so I guess that means I am not into the S&M scene. Spanking is the usual fare and sometimes I find myself gagged and tied if the woman likes to get wild. I like the spice it adds to our relationship. | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 2:02:04 PM |
Cookforyou. For someone who says they know little about sadism, you seem remarkably well informed. Whilst not really wanting to know what you and your girlfriend get up to in the bedroom, it is not unreasonable to question how your girlfriend discovered that she was a masochist. Did she have some kind of epiphany? Or was this after she encountered a sadist
She had an epiphany and asked him to do it. I also never said she was my girlfriend.
Looking at your post it seems she was in a relationship with someone who enjoyed asphyxiation. This is quite common within sadism, but even sadists treat breathing games with caution such is the number of people who loose there lives during breath play.
Again you are making assupmtions. SHE is the one who instigated the breath play, NOT HIM!!!
So lets get this right. Your girlfriend knows nothing about BDSM, meets a sadist, and gets initiated into breath play. That relationship ends (sadistic relationships rarely last). Then you come along and she initiates you into the wonderful kinkdom of abuse and humiliation, and you say there is no outside influence in this?
Actually you couldn't have it more wrong. SHE initiated the activities and then her boyfriend no longer had the stomach to treat her the way she wanted so SHE dumped HIM. Then out of her own accord she started seeking out people who could satisfy her sexually.
I am giving up now as I can see facts have absolutely no effect on your narrow mind. So you had experience with a sadistic cult? I never denied that sadistic cults do not exist but I am denying that EVERYONE who engages in these activities is in a cult or being indoctrinated.
And I'm sure you beleive all the masochists out there are girls being manipulated right? The majority of masochist are actually men in high-power corporate positions who pay top dollar to get tied and beaten by beautiful women in black leather. | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 2:04:49 PM |
There is no excuse for hitting women, none whatsoever, and any man who does it no matter what his excuse, drink temper or consent, deserves nothing but contempt.
Even if she's begging you too? What if you love her and want to give her pleasure? | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 2:25:25 PM | I have had two guys contact me that want me to be their dominatrix, get all pissy when I tell them I am not one and dont' intend to be
this one that just contacted me, "what can I do to be your slave" tell him I am a normal chick that just happens to like heavy metal and hockey not into that. He writes me back telling me I am supremely f*cked cause metal is for 20 year olds? huh? what an ass! | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 4:17:55 PM |
Sadism however, like no other group I can think of, actively embraces abuse.
If someone absolutely loves getting a tap on the butt during sex and it really arouses them like nothing else - and they actively seek out a consenting partner who will do this for them as it enhances their love life - I don't see this as "actively embracing abuse" as there is NO abuse taking place. Just two consenting adults adding a bit of fun to their sex life. They aren't telling others to do this. They may or may not be involved in bdsm or even a lifestyle, just the playful side of S&M without the abuse or degradation/humiliation.
Why is it whenever an opinion is expressed about sadism that is critical of the lifestyle, it is summarily dismissed as being wrong through misunderstanding?
Maybe because of all the myths surrounding what sadism is or isn't? Maybe because they have never actually witnessed two people lovingly expressing their passion for each other in a way that doesn't fit with how one person thinks a relationship is suppose to be? There could be many reasons why whenever an opinion is expressed about sadism that is critical of the lifestyle it is summarily dismissed as being wrong through misunderstanding.
On a side note - I never said your beliefs were wrong - they are absolutely right for you! The fact that you stand up for your beliefs speaks volumes about your character and that is admirable. I can disagree with you without it diminishing my respect for your right to express your views.
The reasoning seems to be that the only possible conclusion has to be to support the lifestyle. If someone concludes otherwise than this is their fault because they do not understand the reasoning.
At no point are you expected to change your views nor has anyone said you are at fault because you do not understand the reasoning. You have weighed what you learned and based your own views upon the results of your own beliefs and what you have read. You are obviously satisfied with your results and it has solidified your own beliefs with regards to sadism. S&M is not your kink and I can certainly respect that choice.
I do appreciate you posting your thoughts as they do help others to come to their own conclusions. You present the other side of the coin well and I wish you all the best.
Lady Kay | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 5:16:42 PM | 'There is no excuse for hitting women, none whatsoever, and any man who does it no matter what his excuse, drink temper or consent, deserves nothing but contempt.
Even if she's begging you too? What if you love her and want to give her pleasure?'
Any kind of man would would refuse,and explain carefuly how it deminishes him. If she loves him back she will understand. A man who beats a woman ..........isnt a man. | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 5:23:55 PM | There's a difference between abuse, and mutual pleasure.
If it happens between two consenting adults then it's for no one else to judge. What two(or more lol) people do in their bedroom (kitchen, living room, house) is not for you to judge. Don't like it? Don't look or get involved.
Being a sub is not about abuse. It's not about being weak. It's about recognizing that that is what turns you on, making someone else happy, caring for someone else and providing them with their needs. Are you a sicko if you happen to enjoy rough sex? If making love to your woman leaves a few bruises is that abuse? No. Of course not. If that's what you and her both enjoy then who cares?
Just the same as if I happen to like to be a sub, to be submissive and feel cherished, possessed and dominated in a non-abusive way...who cares if you don't like it? I don't. I'm not doing anything illegal, and I'm certainly not harming anyone.
And, for the record, a man who lets his woman walk all over him, get led around by his pecker and then has the balls to **** about it is just as much of a man who beats his woman in a manner that does not fall within the lines of Safe, Sane and Consentual.
Men who have no backbone, are to me, not men. They're eunichs. | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 7:06:32 PM | | I've always dug violence, but what is it about the lifestyle that seems to draw out almost exclusively the repulsive and/or overweight? I'm thinking about an unfortunate 'bondage ball' I attended in my city. | |
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| Re: BDSM
Posted: 4/27/2006 7:40:39 PM |
Any kind of man would would refuse,and explain carefuly how it deminishes him. If she loves him back she will understand. A man who beats a woman ..........isnt a man.
Neither is a man who is trying to cheat on his wife.
I'm sure there is a cult of married men trolling personals websites too. Maybe if you gave the wife a little tap on her rump every so often you wouldn't be so bored with her.
Your profile reads plain as day that you are a sad sexually repressed individual. I bet your going to tell me you've never fantasized about rough sex either? Every guy does most are just ashamed to admit it.
Sex is inherently a violent act, during the dawn of man I doubt if consent was a concept people even understood and all those years of ingrained instinct have not gone away. Just as men fantasize about rough sex women also fantasize about being treated roughly.
There was a poll on this forum recently asking women if they enjoyed a little spanking or hair pulling and about 95% said it turned them on. There is a perfectly natural explanation for this kind of behaviour.
After all is there anything more instinctual than mating? So many things about sex that don't make sense until you look back a 50000 years.......... | |
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