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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 10:28:37 PM | Women seem to get the benefit of taking one of two roles. The first, as a financially independent woman who doesn't need a man, and secondly as a more traditional woman who does depend on the man. Men however, get the benefit of one role, the financial breadwinner and even if the woman's making money, they are seen as useless if they don't. So how does the modern woman account for the double standard? And how is that exactly being equal?
Second, I have heard the term independent used by women in a kind of confident, angry tone, that almost sounds like they are blaming men. But the initial problem was that women were traditionally too clingy. And the reason they were clingy is because they weren't strong enough, financially secure enough, or what not to be independent. So it was their problem in the first place, hence why the angry blaming men tone.
Another item is you can't be emotionally aloof, say you don't need someone, or anyone of a whole gender and then be on a dating site. Makes perfect sense, OP. A relationship requires some level of emotional dependence or interdependence. So no need to wag it in the face that you don't need men, just get off the dating website and join the leave me alone website. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 10:52:17 PM | A good point to share is that when looking for a partner remember, biologically men and women are opposite enough to begin with. Look for someone you have something in common with. Opposites don't attract. Some people love their codependancy so much they seek it out. So what? If you choose to live that way go nuts. However if you are looking for someone interesting that you can share things with ...that's right I said share, most of us were taught the basics of it as children, then seek that out. It isn't rocket science that everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes someone you meet presents themself in a certain way and you think okay this deserves a chance. If you find out in process that they aren't who you thought or who they pretended to be you can say bye bye. It doesn't have to be in a fit of rudeness, just follow the path you are on but be honest with yourself first. Pretending you are this or that backfires just as anyone who has met an insincere person knows right away. Be aware folks. Aware of who you are and stick with it and aware of others and make a choice. We all make mistakes it is part of life. If you don't like something about someone don't beat it to death, for heaven sakes move on and learn something from it. I have made mistakes and am thankful that I don't do the same silly thing again. The definition of insanity is doing the same silly thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I for one agree with those who noticed a lot of hot air on here with people who just seem to love to argue. In my profile I say that I am someone who likes light debates and can listen to your thoughts and opinions with respect. Live and let live. Anger and hostility is a terrible way to live. Glad I don't feel like that and feel sorry for those who choose it as a lifestyle. Healthy people attract the same. Get the dvd or the book the Secret which explains the painfully simple idea of the law of attraction. We attract what we think about.
Peace! | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/26/2007 11:05:09 PM |
Posted By: joypriil
I do not think looks should turn off a man...or the fact that th ey see that I am not afraid to work and take care of myself should cause them to shy away...what do you suggest I do to attract them...
The "pool" of available men tends to get thinner as women age. Women tend to live longer than men. Men tend to avoid dating women who are older. (unless they want a good inheritance)
I'm not as bad as some men... my ex was a few years older than me... and statistics said we would last the same amount of time. (we looked it up shortly after the wedding when considering life insurance.)
If you were about 15 years younger and 900 to 1100 miles closer (without checking maps) then your profile would look pretty good to me. But... you're only a very few years younger than my mother, and I'm not after a replacement mommy.
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What you have to do to attract men is... go where the available men are, and don't wear the old wedding ring. The men in your age group are not likely to assume you're widowed... and I would expect they are a bit less interrested in fooling around with a married woman than some of the "kids" in their 20's. | |
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| Why SOME men wont date independent women
Posted: 8/26/2007 11:41:24 PM | Some of the guys are trying to tell gals our side of all of this - then their words get twisted.
I would rather read "this is the way I feel about it" or, "from my perspective" than "our side".
I'm always interested in how men think and feel and hope they continue to express themselves, even if they feel that their words are misinterpreted. The great thing about these forums is that we can all continue to explain ourselves if our words are twisted, or ask that a post be deleted.
I'm still reading these posts, waiting for the answer to why men think that a woman calling herself independent means that she's trying to be a man, and what they think it means to be a man?? | |
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| Why SOME men wont date independent women
Posted: 8/27/2007 1:29:12 AM | | Most women who are single after a marriage and children have had to learn to be independent and stand on their own two feet, and are proud of this and rightly so. Often the woman is left to bring up the children of the relationship, in my case with the father failing to live up to his end of his child support obligation so i have had to work my butt off to support my 3 boys. If i say i'm independent it because of this. Do i want to have a man in my life?? Yes!! and now i have a wonderful, caring man who i'm crazily in love with. But in the sense of did i NEED a man in my life? Well I learned to get on without one, so I know i am able to function alone, so need doesnt come into it. But i am so happy that he is here and hope it will always be this way. I think my growth of independence is a good thing and not full of the negative connotations that a lot of men have with the word "independent." I'm not incapable of showing or feeling love simply because i can operate by myself. I love having a partner and sharing my life with him. I love the affection and giving that comes with being in a loving relationship. Independence doesnt mean not wanting to love and share in a wonderful partnership. My guy loves "my" interpretation of an independent woman. I ride a motorcycle, i'm a firefighter, i'm a dog handler/trainer, i can shoot a gun and ride a horse. I'm also a soft yielding, loving, giving woman who likes my man to "lead" our relationship. Figure that out...... | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:13:07 AM |
Many men will not ask me out because they preceive me to be independant.....I know beccause I have had friends tell me so.
Believe me it is not because you are independent, and frankly I don;t care what your friends tell you. Men want a independent woman. Now if that independence comes with a attitude or there is other factors, then no we aren't interested.
I would suggest critically examine the rest of the bait that you are offering.
Sometimes it is all to easy to focus in one one thing and say that has to be the reason. All too often that is merely a excuse not to look deeper and see something that you really don't want to see. | |
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peb-1
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Joined: 5/18/2006
Msg: 1832 | |
| Why SOME men wont date independent women
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:39:19 AM | | Good for you' Dare to', after reading some of the posts I was going to say the same thing. Some woman are independant by their own choosing because that is what they want and good for them! But a large portion of woman like this lady, myself included and lots of others on this site have had to bring up children on their own without the father putting in time and failing his finacial obligations, we are independent because A MAN didnt act like a MAN should!!! and they should be proud of what they have achieved usualy against a lot more odds than a man has too. It defo isnt easy bringing up kids on your own 24/7 and while you are doing that, putting food on the table and keeping the wolf away from the door you learn to depend on yourself because you have to!! if we didnt all our children would end up in care ! but it doesnt not mean we are any less lovable and dont want someone to share our lives with and most of us are more giving than a man if we werent we would have walked away and turned our back on our kids just the way their father did. I have a lot of respect for men that do keep in touch with their children and support them, but unfortunely there are some men out there that dont! therefore men should have a lot of respect for woman that are independent because the chances are she has had to be! and if you date one, well you will get a woman that wants you for yourself! not for whatever material needs you can provide her. Which reading through the profiles an awful lot of men are saying they want givers not takers. Come on you cant have it both ways lol | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:38:52 AM | Women seem to get the benefit of taking one of two roles. The first, as a financially independent woman who doesn't need a man, and secondly as a more traditional woman who does depend on the man. Men however, get the benefit of one role, the financial breadwinner and even if the woman's making money, they are seen as useless if they don't. So how does the modern woman account for the double standard? And how is that exactly being equal?
Depends who you ask. As long as a man supports himself, he's not questioned by women. These days now that a lot of women ARE self sufficient and times have changed, we are attracted to that in the opposite sex. However, not a lot of us expect a man to take care of us, nor do we want t0 take care of them. Those women who are looking for a partner mainly just want someone who's where they are. Self sufficient - not in terms of a certain amount, but in terms of being ambitious and having a job. ANYONE who's not working because they just don't feel like it is considered useless...personally even if you have money from inheritance and don't have to work, you should have the desire do something with yourself and have a sense of purpose or structure in your life. It's just an attractive quality.
Second, I have heard the term independent used by women in a kind of confident, angry tone, that almost sounds like they are blaming men. But the initial problem was that women were traditionally too clingy. And the reason they were clingy is because they weren't strong enough, financially secure enough, or what not to be independent. So it was their problem in the first place, hence why the angry blaming men tone.
Sounds like you think women were at one time second class citizens by choice...that can't be what I just read. If you mean women gave more power to men than they should have in relationships as recently as 10, 20 maybe 30 years ago - yeah they did. If you are telling me women didn't work or vote or had to marry and have kids over 30 years ago because they chose to, you're dead wrong. Society frowned upon that years ago, and there were few occupations women could get into that were acceptable; even then they were to work only to bide time until they found a suitable husband. Once they had kids, they were expected to stay home and raise them.
Another item is you can't be emotionally aloof, say you don't need someone, or anyone of a whole gender and then be on a dating site. Makes perfect sense, OP. A relationship requires some level of emotional dependence or interdependence. So no need to wag it in the face that you don't need men, just get off the dating website and join the leave me alone website.
We can be open to meeting new members of the opposite sex without feeling like we should depend on them to live. We can want a partner that wants us to be our own person. Putting yourself out there socially and needing a man in your life are not even close to the same thing. We can hope to find someone who loves us for who we are and who believes what we believe, but even if we don't find them - we have to be complete people regardless; happy with who we are and enjoy life single or not. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 7:00:52 AM | This is usually a woman who kids herself she doesnt need a man.
In reality she is just a control freak and thast why men dont like her. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 8:13:45 AM | I just want to be the woman. He can be the man.
I agree. I am independent because I am alone. If in a good relationship, it's nice to not have to have any power, or gender struggles over anything. I haven't been there, truly since my divorce, but it will be interesting, meshing finances, and all when it does happen. I DO like being the feminine, nurturing one though, and as long as he takes good care of me it'll all be good. Not speaking financially here, but as a woman who likes the security of being in strong arms.............. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 8:59:40 AM | In msg 1806, Shemail said:
I am beginning to wonder if SOME men who have nothing but bad past relationships can handle not only an independent woman, but a GOOD woman, who knows how to treat her man and also really be the other half, and not just be catered to, pampered, etc...........bc maybe they NEED someone to fix ? Or that they get intimidated bc we are pretty darned sufficient???
This is a classic example of perpetrating the myth that men are intimidated by "independent women". Are there some men who think that way? Of course. But I'm pretty confident saying (being a guy and all) that they are far fewer than many women like to pretend.
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In msg 1820, TigerBlackHawk said:
Its not that men won't date an Independant woman. Its that women don't want the men who are willing to date them.
A simple truth that many seem intent on denying/ignoring. And instead of looking at what it is that causes the men who they are interested in to not be interested in them, they blame those men by calling them "insecure", "intimidated", etc etc.
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In msg 1826, Joypriil said:
Many men will not ask me out because they preceive me to be independant....since I do not have a man in my life I HAVE to work,to pay my bills, and do what it takes to survive.I am not bad looking but men shy sway from me because of that.
Another classic example of perpetrating this myth. Having a job and paying your bills is NOT a turn-off for 99% of the guys out there.
I know beccause I have had friends tell me so....
My impression is that your friends either A) are also buying into this myth, or B) are trying to be nice because they know it sucks when you're looking for somebody and nobody seems interested.
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In msg 1833, Realist 59 said:
I'm still reading these posts, waiting for the answer to why men think that a woman calling herself independent means that she's trying to be a man, and what they think it means to be a man??
It's not (necessarily) that men think women are "trying to be men". Between this thread, and another very similar thread that was closed last year by the mods, there are over 90 pages of men saying largely the same thing (over and over), and women saying largely the same thing (again, over and over). Based on my watching of the these threads, I feel comfortable in saying that I can (and did, actually) answer this question. It's msg 1802, on page 73. In addition to my own thoughts, I also quoted other posters who I thought expressed it rather well, or using different words. Please note that most of the quotes are actually from women; in my opinion, women who "get it". If you are interested in an answer to your question, I would suggest that you read what they had to say, because based on what I have seen in 90+ pages of this subject, they sum it up quite well.
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I will leave you all with a quote:
this thread gets goofier and goofier. i think it should be re-named 'the epitome of why men can't be bothered trying to have a meaningful conversation with women'. again and again and again, men have stated that they like self-defined 'independent' women. again and again and again, women have posted messages giving their blustering opinions about why men don't like 'independent' women. again and again and again, men have tried to explain from their perspective what they see or think of when they meet a self-important 'independent' woman. again and again and again women shout the men down and tell the men that they have no idea what they, the men, mean. it's so tiresome. ok, girls, have at it. i'm sure i'll hear from the bully-girls on this one. cheers.
The punchline? This was posted in this thread on page 12. That's right; over 60 pages ago!
And I have a strong feeling that this thread can easily go another 60 pages, with more women "explaining" to men that the reason the men aren't intersested in them is because they are "insecure", "intimidated", blah blah blah. And why is this so? Because I have gotten the impression that very few of the people who post in this thread are actually interested in the answer to the original question.
Have fun!  | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:22:55 AM | This is usually a woman who kids herself she doesnt need a man.
In reality she is just a control freak and thast why men dont like her.
I sense from some men's posts that they are angry that they can't control women, and try to turn the attention and blame back to the women. Who is the control freak?
The growing number of Japanese women who have decided not to get married is interesting. They don't make their statement quite so loudly as some NA women, but even without all of that advertisement it is quite noticeable in their society. These women have decided to have a career instead of staying at home to raise a family, because many times the woman raises the children alone while the man is "married" to his company. So many women have decided that that isn't the life for them and are enjoying their freedom from that role. Is there a price to pay? Of course, but they are willing to pay it.
In NA society it is now quite easily possible for a woman to function financially without a man, and many do. There are other women are looking for something other than a loving relationship who are willing to trade off ?? to have a man support them and if it works for them, then what do the rest of us care? There are also lots of couples who decide to work as a team where one takes care of bringing in the dough while the other has a caretaker role and the great thing about that is the roles are so flexible and can be swapped if necessary. We are so lucky now that we have choice! It does make it hard on the people who like their role in life well-defined and don't adapt well to change. Those are the ones who kick up a fuss out of fear and want to push everyone back into the roles they think they belong in. It's been such a long time that roles that people who want society to be more controlled and rigid are going to be left with a lot of anger. The ones who want more freedom for all are getting impatient with that attitude and there seems to be a lot of anger in return. Judging from the number of angry responses here, maybe it's time to agree to disagree since it seems to be very difficult to find either flexibility or understanding. I'd like to thank all of the men who provided their reasons why they won't date independent women - it was very informative, and wish you all the best in finding a woman who is suitable for you. The independent women of NA may find a man to fall in love with, and they may not, but that's not something that you need to concern yourself with because that is their own choice and they are prepared to live with it.
The problem that we are left with is how we communicate who we are here on POF. "I am an independent woman" can be interpreted 50 different ways, including that "I don't need a man emotionally" and "I am rejecting you personally", depending on the mindset of the man reading it. When it's to that extent I think most would agree that it's a problem of perception that the man is going to have to deal with himself, but most women will want to be clear what they mean by independent so the majority of men can understand what they mean by that. I'm a big fan of explanations in a profile where a person has felt strongly enough about something to make a statement so the reader gets of clear understanding of where the person is coming from. The more information the profile reader has the better their decision will be on whether they think they could be a good match. If you see something in a profile that you don't like, you can always push the "next" button.
We could start all kinds of threads such as "why some women won't date bald men" or "why men won't date women with the name Gertrude", but something tells me that people would find it offensive. Sure, it's great to tell everyone your views but chances are you aren't going to change anything. If an individual woman doesn't want to date a bald man, or an individual man doesn't want to date Gertrude, then how does this matter to anyone else other than that person? To tell you the truth probably no one really cares, other than to point out that there are different perspectives that they could be thinking about which might help them have an easier time with their love life. They know it's their choice though, just as independent women know it doesn't matter that some men won't date them - it's their choice and they are fully prepared to live with it. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 10:05:01 AM |
They know it's their choice though, just as independent women know it doesn't matter that some men won't date them - it's their choice and they are fully prepared to live with it.
I would be more inclined to believe that if there weren't so many women on this thread who keep trying to blame men ("insecure", "intimidated") for their being single. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 10:09:14 AM | "dave1234" (message 1795) wrote ...
I think the "problem" is the interpretation of "we always know what we want in life and we always know which direction we are going." Is the independent woman willing to consider what her partner wants in life and where he's going? Absolutely ... I have a friend in Ohio who is an attorney. We have been talking about him coming down to spend time with me in Florida. He is about to retire after 35 years with the State of Ohio.
I know that if he wanted to work here, he would have to take the bar exam for the state of Florida. But there are other options. If this works out ... there is no reason why I can't work as a nurse here while we spend the winter months here (he will be collecting retirement and really wouldn't have to work) and also work as a nurse in Ohio while we spend the summer months there at his place where he could work as well if he so chooses ... he wants to go into private practice after he retires. I keep my license in both states on active status, so I'm all set. I guess then we would be considered "snowbirds", but not really as he has a residence there and I have a residence here.
When we first met my partner asked how I would deal with her occasional late night at the office and the possibility of a cancelled/altered vacation plan. My reply was to reiterate what I expected from a relationship and that was sex.
Late nights, modified vacations, no interference in personal finances, no dinner, piled up laundry.......no problem. Sex was my one and only stipulation and with good reason. I think that's cute, funny, and a mixture of other things. I do wonder though how a man would feel if his SO said that. ie ... "I can deal with the occasional late night at the office, and the possibility of a cancelled / altered vacation plan but sex is a must. There must be sex."
BTW ... just for the record ... I don't play those "sexual control" games. I like sex too much to deny my partner and ultimately deny myself then ... 
But my question to the men would be ... If a woman said the same thing "There must be sex" ...
**Would he feel "used"?
**Would he eventually get "performance" anxiety?
**What happens then? I've seen threads in here where men are complaining ... a woman can go anytime, but a man has to be able to "perform".
**If he has something on his mind, or is getting older and experiencing problems with ED ... would that be the end of the relationship?
Sex is what holds a romantic relationship together and if/when that's interfered with then there is a major problem.
It's two people touching base, if you will. It puts everything else in perspective and as long as ones independence does not interfere with that all is well. I agree whole-heartedly. As long as the physical relationship is in tact ... there really never seems to be any other obstacle that presents itself that two people couldn't handle. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 10:36:20 AM |
I sense from some men's posts that they are angry that they can't control women, and try to turn the attention and blame back to the women.
Why is it that whenever a man expresses something about preferring a relationship based on traditional values (NOT traditional roles - big difference), he is accused of being controlling and blaming women for all the problems?
When it's to that extent I think most would agree that it's a problem of perception that the man is going to have to deal with himself, but most women will want to be clear what they mean by independent so the majority of men can understand what they mean by that.
Then there is this ^^^^ which seems to blame men again. And, while some women may occasionally be clear about what 'independence' means to them when they use the term to describe themselves, too many are clear about it over and over and over and over and over again ad nauseum
It's not just perception. Often, it's EXPERIENCE. Big difference. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 11:01:10 AM | Message 1838: This is usually a woman who kids herself she doesnt need a man.
In reality she is just a control freak and thast why men dont like her.
My response to the above: I sense from some men's posts that they are angry that they can't control women, and try to turn the attention and blame back to the women. Who is the control freak?
Message 1844: Why is it that whenever a man expresses something about preferring a relationship based on traditional values (NOT traditional roles - big difference), he is accused of being controlling and blaming women for all the problems?
My response to the above (top) was quoted with this post. I'm not making any connection between your response to my reply to someone else's post whatsoever.
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My post: When it's to that extent I think most would agree that it's a problem of perception that the man is going to have to deal with himself, but most women will want to be clear what they mean by independent so the majority of men can understand what they mean by that.
This was the extent of the reaction I was describing: "I am an independent woman" can be interpreted 50 different ways, including that "I don't need a man emotionally" and "I am rejecting you personally", depending on the mindset of the man reading it. When it's to that extent I think most would agree that it's a problem of perception that the man is going to have to deal with himself.
This response: Then there is this ^^^^ which seems to blame men again. And, while some women may occasionally be clear about what 'independence' means to them when they use the term to describe themselves, too many are clear about it over and over and over and over and over again ad nauseum.
Well, it might SEEM to blame men, but I think it is an overreaction. When you read more than is intended into a post and get angry and frustrated then I guess you'll just have to deal with that, won't you? I think if you look at it again you'll see that I was describing a reaction that is over and above how most would react, and is based on a viewpoint that isn't the norm. Some just haven't adapted to changing roles and attitudes.
If "too many" women are clear about independence, then what does that mean to you personally? That you won't be able to find a woman because the pool is shrinking? That you need to continue to listen to women over and over and over and over and over? You do have a choice here - you can avoid women who make a strong statement about their independence - believe me, they know that is for the best as well and you don't have to listen. You have lots of options and are welcome to exercise them. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 11:16:49 AM | If a guy finds a woman attractive, he's going to ask her out and pursue her.
If a guy doesn't find a woman attractive, he just doesn't care.
Men aren't that complicated. If most guys don't want to date you, it's because they don't find you "attractive".
Now that could mean more than just looks. (Although looks are really the bread and butter of the matter if you think about it) A guy could find your circumstances unattractive. (Still in school, no career aspirations, already have kids, too big of an age gap, etc, etc) Or he could find your looks or physical condition unattractive as stated before. Or he could find that your personality sucks. Whatever the case, if a guy doesn't find you attractive, he decides the total sum of what you have to offer isn't worth the hoops he has to jump through to date you.
Women have to be honest with themselves. Are men not asking you out because you are "independent"? (As if anyone can really define that) Or are you going to face the truth and figure out that men find some combination of your looks, circumstances and personality unattractive and they just doesn't care? (And there's nothing wrong with that, some people aren't good matches and that's ok) Again, I think part of this problem stems from the fact that most women start to lose their cool when they realize that all men in the universe don't want them, even men they didn't want in the first place, which is just downright baffling.
Folks, this includes men and women, have to stop finding things to focus on and blame to explain away why no one wants to date them. It really isn't that hard but people want to make it hard because they don't want to have to accept that they need to make changes to get the things that they want.
"Men are intimidated by my independence!"
Yeah, that's a load of BS. Men are never that complicated. If a man isn't paying you any attention or asking you out, he's not attracted to you. It's that simple. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 11:34:06 AM | ^^^^^ I'd like to reply, but your relply is kinda confusing. Try using the
quote function.
Ha, ha, my tactic exactly :-). I found your reply to my response to another post confusing - didn't see the relationship between what I said to what you got out of it at all.
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[Folks, this includes men and women, have to stop finding things to focus on and blame to explain away why no one wants to date them. It really isn't that hard but people want to make it hard because they don't want to have to accept that they need to make changes to get the things that they want.
"Men are intimidated by my independence!"
Yeah, that's a load of BS. Men are never that complicated. If a man isn't paying you any attention or asking you out, he's not attracted to you. It's that simple.]
I don't think that the independent women you are referring to really cares why a man doesn't want to date them, and if she ends up alone then her view is "so be it" - that's what they mean by independent. Why do men care about the statement of an independent woman that men are intimidated by her when all they have to do is just click on by? If a fiercely independent woman ends up alone (like many Japanese women, for example) then what does it matter to a man personally? They aren't compatible so why get all worked up about it?
I think the problem lies in how women are communicating what they mean when they call themselves independent and how men are reacting to their statements. I don't think this is blaming anyone, it is trying to identify what everything boils down to and providing some possible solutions other than anger. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 11:59:34 AM | ^^^^ THAT is the answer to this question. (two post up that is)
Ultimate - you answered this question but ........... most will not pay any attention to it. They prefer to use that independent crap as rationalization - the old shift the blame.
I've said about the same thing 100 times over the years - they just don't really want the answer.
This "are men intimidated" is the very same attention seeking junk as all the nice guy threads. The added spewing of insults at guys (guys are intimidated by the wonderfullness of me) just gets us guys pizzed off over the insults.
Just for the record - you are NOT going to insult guys into being interested. You may insult them out of being interested but never into it.
Trying to shame someone into liking you >>>>>>> DON’T WORK
- they are shallow >>> DON’T WORK
- nice guys come in last >>> DON’T WORK
- do us overweight people intimidate others >>> DON’T WORK
- are men afraid >>> DON’T WORK | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 12:03:19 PM |
Why do men care about the statement of an independent woman that men are intimidated by her when all they have to do is just click on by?
Maybe because we don't like being slandered. Lord knows we have enough faults; there's no need to make up even more!
How can you call a woman independent if she keeps trying to blame others ("insecure men") for her own situation? I would hardly call a lack of willingness to take responsibility for their own situations being "independent".
I think the problem lies in how women are communicating what they mean when they call themselves independent and how men are reacting to their statements.
I agree wholeheartedly. IMO, women shouldn't even put "independent" in their profiles. In the words of a female poster (whom I quoted earlier), it's actually sexist stereotyping: why isn't it just assumed that women have their own jobs, pay their own bills, etc etc, just like men are assumed to do these things? And if women define the word differently, then they would probably get a much more favorable reaction from men if they would write out their definition of "independent", rather than just saying "I'm independent" and hoping that the men reading it have the same definition that they do.
Because (again, as I quoted somebody else in msg 1802 on page 73), most men already assume that women do things like work, pay their bills, etc. So when a woman goes out of her way to state that she is independent, men are left to wonder why she feels the need to trumpet her accomplishment of the mundane. And most of the men that she would probably be interested in are not going to want to get involved with the kind of drama that comes with a woman like that. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 12:24:45 PM | the trouble with an independent woman being alone and why should a man care is this...either you are independent by your definition which could include relationally alone or you are seeking companionship which requires dependence or interdependence. If you are happy with being alone, why advertise on a site? Maybe in case prince charming meets your impossible checklist? On the other hand it really should be the onus on the guy to weed out from their selections women who really aren't looking. There are a lot of them out there, especially those out of the breeding age range. Most threads like these are debated ferociously by women who arent looking, and have given up, many of whom are over 40 debating younger men at a different stage in their lives. They cant find what they want or arent attractive enough for an ltr, so they unilaterally claim they don't need a man. Truth is emotionally we do need others and to claim otherwise is self deception. Thats why we are still on forums, becuase it makes us sociable even when single.
By the way the Japanese example of women electing not to get married is interesting but they also did a study of female Ivy League grads and found many are housewives.
Men are right to avoid independence that means the woman doesn't really want a relationship, which often times it does. How do you have a relationship with someone who by their subtext are saying they don't want one? impossible. move on. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 1:07:17 PM | I agree wholeheartedly. IMO, women shouldn't even put "independent" in their profiles. In the words of a female poster (whom I quoted earlier), it's actually sexist stereotyping: why isn't it just assumed that women have their own jobs, pay their own bills, etc etc, just like men are assumed to do these things? And if women define the word differently, then they would probably get a much more favorable reaction from men if they would write out their definition of "independent", rather than just saying "I'm independent" and hoping that the men reading it have the same definition that they do.
Following that logic, why state anything in a profile though? The purpose of the profile is to attract the person you want to have a relationship with and discourage others that are not suitable. Unless you want to spend time meeting every single person to determine this, it makes sense to use your profile to do this. Otherwise, why not just post your email address?
I think there's been enough mention by men that women are looking for a man to support them that some want to make this clear that they are not looking for that. Unfortunately it doesn't occur to some women to explain what they mean by independent - they don't think that a man would see this as anything other than positive otherwise why would they put it in there. It would be like saying "I'm fat" or "I'm ugly". It doesn't make sense to do that does it? They don't understand that to some men "I'm independent" means "I'm personally rejecting you".
When a woman deliberately says she's independent to send the message "I'd rather be alone than put up with anything other than exactly what I want" then men are free to click on by. Why engage with a person sending out that message if you feel it's insulting, other than to provide a different reality? Someone entrenched in their position is not going to change by an angry response, and you're not going to change a segment of society with anger either.
I don't see the need for telling anyone why you are passing them by - it's like what I call the fat posts where the people who are bothered by people with excess weight tell them very pointedly and with great passion how they find it disgusting, etc., etc. If anyone truly wants to figure out why they are alone they will ask, and many do in the profile review section.
Some things just are better off accepted for now, with the hope that people will learn for their own sakes - it's for them to have an epiphany, not for anyone else to anger them out of it. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 1:15:37 PM |
I don't think that the independent women you are referring to really cares why a man doesn't want to date them, and if she ends up alone then her view is "so be it" - that's what they mean by independent.
Of course they care.
Who doesn't want to have someone to come home to and feel cared for and appreciated and loved? And that's not just women, that's everyone. Everyone wants that deep down inside whether they want to admit it or not. Being lonely sucks. No one wants to be lonely.
Someone screaming to the sky that they are independent is really just letting all the men out there know that no one wants them. That's all there is to it. There are lots of great women out there, the best kind of mates possible. And you know what? They don't need to announce to the world why they don't need men to mask the truth - the truth that most men just don't want them.
Fine, some women want to let all the men in the world know that they don't "need" them. Good. Those women can go away now. Go home and lock yourselves in your rooms and stop chirping about it because men don't want to hear it.
Maybe women don't want to get the point as Ron9 so astutely points out. The point is men have one option in life - work and work hard or they are considered defective by society. You don't hear us scream to the sky about how we pay our bills and toil in our daily grind just to get by in life. Do you?
So is that the point women want to make? That they want credit for what people have to do to survive anyway?
But do the women go away? No, they keep screaming to the sky. Because they are lonely. Because they want what all people want in life. To be cared for, to be appreciated, to have someone hold them when life gets hard. But instead they pull this routine where they want to be able to tell you they don't need you and still have you do all the things they secretly want anyway.
Do most of you women realize how much rejection the average man has to deal with on a daily basis from women? We get it all the time. Most of us suck it up. It's how things work in the world. We aren't even allowed to complain without losing our social credibility. Rejection comes to us like air goes in our lungs. Yet the first hint that a woman starts to realize that men just aren't attracted to her, she starts bawling about how men must be "intimidated" and her "independence" must terrify them.
The blame game is just juvenile. It's what young teenagers and kids do because they don't want to accept how the world really works. Fine, some of the women out there want to call men "intimidated" , then I say those women are acting like a bunch of children.
Not everyone in life is going to love and want you and desire you and think you are the next best thing to bottled beer. Men get reminded of that every single day. Maybe if women started to realize that, they wouldn't need to blame men for the simple reason that people just don't find them attractive. | |
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| Why men wont date independant women
Posted: 8/27/2007 1:24:55 PM |
Men are right to avoid independence that means the woman doesn't really want a relationship, which often times it does. How do you have a relationship with someone who by their subtext are saying they don't want one? impossible. move on. Exactly.
I was just having a conversation with a good friend (co-worker) who was telling me that she is now in a relationship with a man (for the first time in her life) where he actually allows her to voice her opinion and while he will debate with her occasionally, she is still entitled to her opinion. I wasn't quite sure what she meant by that until she added ...
"In my marriage of over 25 years, my husband was able to support us well and so I did not pursue a career. I stayed at home and took care of the children and kept the home fires burning so to speak. But then I was just 19 when I went into that. It took me a while to discover that being a stay-at-home wife/mother basically meant (in his mind) that I simply had no say-so in how the money would be spent (after all he was the one earning it and by gawd he was going to decide how to spend it) and nothing to say about whether the family was going to move to a whole different part of the country ... he made those decisions and basically never asked me how I felt about it and he let me know that it wouldn't matter anyways ... that's what we were going to do."
So, for her ... while since the divorce she too has gone to nursing school and can now provide for herself (ie is an" independent" woman), being an "independent" woman for her means she's allowed to have a point of view and freely express it and actually expect her SO to sit up and listen. It doesn't matter to her that they don't always agree on everything (and how many couples could always agree on everything anyways?), it matters only that she now has that choice. To her that makes her feel like an "independent" woman. In her mind, the fact that she is self-supporting and can take care of herself is just "understood".
She would not be the kind of woman who would write "I'm an independent woman" in her profile any more than I have done so, but if she did ... that would be how she meant it.
Question ...
**Do men realize that when they see something like that written in a woman's profile ... that it can mean a wide variety of things and not just ... "I don't need a man" or "I want a man who doesn't mind being bossed around / dominated by me?
OR
**Is there just some basic "stereotype", preconceived thought that goes through their minds that this is just another "cranky, self-righteous biotch" wanting a man she can run over at the drop of a hat? | |
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