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rks58
| Joined: 1/28/2006 Msg: 26 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 5/14/2006 5:40:52 PM | the same can be said about the 6 arab initiated wars over the past half century.
I'm wondering where you are getting your information from. According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign affairs I count six wars as you say (War of Independence '47-'49, Sinai Campaign '56, Six-Day War and the subsequent border skirmishes '67-'70, Yom Kippur War '73, Operation Peace for Galilee '82, Gulf War '91). The '56, '67 and '82 wars were started by Israel. You can argue the reasons for them all you like but the fact remains that Israel initiated.
I can only count 6 nations that have attacked Israel (7 if you consider Palestine a nation) Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Jordan
Iran was involved in NONE of these wars and that can be confirmed from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
But I guess you're right. If you're going to distort facts, if your going to mention all 22 Arab nations (the majority of which have never done anything to Israel) and attacks on Israel in the same breath there probably will never be any peace. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/22/2006 2:33:23 PM | darjeeling,
Thats a very optimistic and unrealistic translation. Maybe he was quoting poetry... I dont know... But he goes beyond just saying that Israel should disappear, attacking them on another front such as whether or not a holocaust happened. His intentions are obvious.
He may not intend to attack Israel with Persian troops... and why should he... when he can just arm someone else to do it for him... does that make him less dangerous? If so, then we should not complain about the US arming Israel and letting them wipe Iran off the face of the map... since 'we' didn't pull the trigger ourselves.
Its easy to take something said in another language and bend it to what you already believe. ;)
I know, I know... that cuts both ways... so now what? | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 28 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/22/2006 3:39:11 PM | bloom
I think enough people have talked about the wipe off the map comment translation.
This is the holocaust denial translation from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
According to the Iran's official news agency:
If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why should the Palestinian nation pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions. [...] The same European countries have imposed the illegally-established Zionist regime on the oppressed nation of Palestine. If you have committed the crimes so give a piece of your land somewhere in Europe or America and Canada or Alaska to them to set up their own state there. Then the Iranian nation will have no objections, will stage no rallies on the Qods Day and will support your decision.[44]
According to United States media:
They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets. The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets, (it) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet. If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel? Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime? [45]
I seriously don't think they really care what the Americans think. But consider this as a better source than ... MEMRI ... an office run by an ex Israeli military intelligence officer. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/22/2006 4:37:45 PM |
But he goes beyond just saying that Israel should disappear, attacking them on another front such as whether or not a holocaust happened. His intentions are obvious.
First off, it was a conference on Zionism in support of the Palestinians ... for Amadinejad to say he would like the Zionist regime to 'pass from the pages of time' would be analoguos to a speaker at a United Jewish Conference to comment on the Third Reich ... 'passing from the page of time'.
To my mind both comments are (or would be) entirely warranted and justified.
I just don't happen to think that the Iranians are as bloodthirsty as you seem to think ... if they were, why do they protect the Jewish enclave that lives within Iran?
He may not intend to attack Israel with Persian troops... and why should he... when he can just arm someone else to do it for him... does that make him less dangerous?
I know how the recent war with Hezbollah has been spun by Israeli political and military spokesmen and it is my opinion based on the available evidence that it was Israel who was violating Lebanese sovereignty in a cross border military OP that led to the capture of the two IDF soldiers ... just as they have done hundreds of times before ... perhaps with the implicit goal of provoking a conflict with Hezbollah in order to get the US to move against Iran.
If so, then we should not complain about the US arming Israel and letting them wipe Iran off the face of the map... since 'we' didn't pull the trigger ourselves.
You are entitled to your opinions of course, but I would prefer that the US ceases all military and financial support for Israel ... I don't want one red cent of my tax dollars supporting that country.
I consider it a rogue nation that is responsible for endangering the whole world.
If we had any politicians within this country that truly cared for America and had a spine we would at least be having a national conversation about such support ... but with the media being under the sway of a whole swath of Zionist inspired propaganda, and the US Congress being Israeli occupied territory ... I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen anytime soon.
Its easy to take something said in another language and bend it to what you already believe. ;) I know, I know... that cuts both ways...
Well, you will need to excuse me if I don't necessarily equate Professor Juan Cole's propensity to fudge the facts and engage in propaganda as MERMI has been shown to do. I guess that is a matter of credibility.
... so now what?
You will also need to excuse me for I know this will sound blunt, but I have pretty much had it with Israel's machinations.
I think the writing is on the wall ... the Zionist regime in Palestine must eventually pass from the pages of time. There are two ways, the first is that Jews will wake to the fact that they are not going to get to have it all their own way, and will reorganize their state along a path to be of benefit with true equality for all ... or they can follow their prefered path of ethnic cleansing the Palestinians from their homelands and become a pariah nation, once that becomes clear to the world at large they will eventually tire of all this madness and abandon them to their chosen fate.
I would much prefer that they exercise the first option.
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/22/2006 5:29:38 PM |
if they were, why do they protect the Jewish enclave that lives within Iran? Currently peaceful Iran is discussing protecting their jews by requiring them to wear identifying marks. Hmm...
I know how the recent war with Hezbollah has been spun by Israeli political and military spokesmen and it is my opinion based on the available evidence that it was Israel who was violating Lebanese sovereignty in a cross border military OP that led to the capture of the two IDF soldiers ... just as they have done hundreds of times before ... perhaps with the implicit goal of provoking a conflict with Hezbollah in order to get the US to move against Iran.
I agree that Israel did some massively stupid things including invading the sovereignty of Lebanon... but the last is just speculation. I highly doubt it. I rather think some retard in Israel thought they could cow Lebanon into a confrontation with Hezbollah.
You are entitled to your opinions of course, but I would prefer that the US ceases all military and financial support for Israel ... I don't want one red cent of my tax dollars supporting that country.
I consider it a rogue nation that is responsible for endangering the whole world.
If we had any politicians within this country that truly cared for America and had a spine we would at least be having a national conversation about such support ... but with the media being under the sway of a whole swath of Zionist inspired propaganda, and the US Congress being Israeli occupied territory ... I'm not going to hold my breath for that to happen anytime soon.
You may be surprised to know, that I would rather not support them either, at least not as we have been. I would rather balance it out, support both sides and truly be a neutral party, so that we could fairly help to negotiate peace. Its hard to be a peace broker, when we are obviously on one side. :(
I would support your first option of "Jews will wake to the fact that they are not going to get to have it all their own way, and will reorganize their state along a path to be of benefit with true equality for all ..." replacing the word jews with Israelis of course.
However, I am not going to pretend like there is only one bad guy in this game. | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 31 | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/22/2006 6:04:55 PM | Traditionally Arabs don't get along too well with the Persians (Iran) so if we had any sense at all about the Middle East we'd use that to our advantage
and I agree about Saudi Arabia...i mean the sept 11 guys were (except one i think) Saudi citizens...we won't mess with Saudis though...someone tell me why? could it be OIL????
people seem to forget why it is everyone is mad at the Jews in Israel. I mean I never understood it til i took a history class in college and the professor explained how after WWII, Jews were given land in Israel for their own...and well you know, you Palestinians, can just get out....No wonder Palestinians are angry....weren't the Native Americans a bit pissed when we took over their lands
frankly I'm tired of hearing the Israelis whine...the only reason they act so big and bad is because they know they have the US backing them up...
as for Bush, he needs to learn more about Islam and its followers, he needs a history lesson as well...so he will stop thinking he can impose our standards and ways of living on other countries...Islam doesn't support democracy in its teachings...so Muslim dominated countries will always resist what goes against their teachings
it's not like Christians who just twist the religion around to suit us...and spit out bible teachings when it fits our needs...and say...christians aren't perfect, just forgiven....aye yi yi.... | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/22/2006 10:19:55 PM | a good example of spreading misinformation and hatred: re, wiping Israel off the map.
Anderson Copper, September 21, 22, 2006. The interview with the President of Iraq and the echo...
that was pathetic. i hope now anticon you can see why i say CNN is just like Fox but speaks to a different group of segment of the population.
now play Coppers questions (not the answers) over and over, repeat every four hours... | |
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dmotz
| Joined: 7/25/2006 Msg: 36 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/22/2006 10:29:03 PM | Passion..... I posted the truth for you to see on your last attempt at slander in these posts....maybe the Mods will let this one stay..... I cant wait for the pro Iranian folks here to start the bashing and feeble attempts at trying to denounce this post as the truth! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1516930/posts
Armed Wing of PA Ruling Party Wants to Wipe Israel Off the Map Arutz Sheva ^ | 11-6-05 | Scott Shiloh
Posted on 11/06/2005 3 06 PM PST by SJackson
The armed wing of Fatah, the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority, and of PA chief Mahmoud Abbas, has called for wiping the State of Israel off the map.
Fatah’s military wing, the Al Aksa Brigades, said in a pamphlet distributed in the Gaza district, that "anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury. Any [Islamic leader] who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world."
Harking back to its pre-Oslo days when Fatah, an international terrorist organization, led the Arab struggle against the Jewish state, the group’s armed wing has become the first Palestinian organization to publicly identify with Iran’s president’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's call to “wipe Israel off the map.”
Ahmadinejad said, “Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury. Any [Islamic leader] who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world."
Israel responded to Ahmadinejad’s statement by demanding that the United Nations revoke Iran’s membership in the world body.
The statement published in the Fatah group’s leaflet strongly supported Ahmadinejad’s bellicose remark. "We affirm our support and backing for the positions of the Iranian president toward the Zionist state which, by God's will, will cease to exist," read the pamphlet. "Recognizing Israel's right to exist means underestimating the Palestinian people, who are making daily sacrifices to liberate Palestine and Jerusalem."
Israel has not responded to the Fatah group’s statements. Officially, Israel has backed the creation of a Palestinian under the U.S. road map plan. Both the United States and Israel had been hoping that such a state would be led by the Fatah, the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority, and of PA chief Mahmoud Abbas.
Israel opposes Hamas participation in the upcoming PA elections because that terror group vehemently opposes the existence of the state of Israel. In regard to the Hamas, Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said ironically at Monday’s cabinet meeting, "Do we really believe that an organization that has engraved on its banner the goal of destroying Israel would give up its party platform after being elected?"
Under a plan supported by the United States and Israel, hundreds of terrorists from the Fatah’s Al Aksa Brigades have been recruited into the PA’s security forces. The PA cabinet decided last month to set up five training camps in territories it controls in Judea and Samaria, to prepare the recruits for their new tasks.
The Fatah group’s brazen invective against Israel, however, runs in direct contravention of the Oslo accords. According to those agreements signed by the late Prime Minister Yitzhak in 1993, the Palestine Liberation Organization, led by Fatah leader Yassir Arafat, formerly recognized Israel’s right to exist.
The ideas behind the Fatah group’s recent statements have received support from PA academia. A professor at Al Najah University in Shechem, Abdel Sattar Kessem, berated western countries, such as the United States, Britain, and France for condemning the Iranian leader’s anti-Israel remarks.
“These aggressive countries, which specialize in political fraud and the exploitation of other people, did not express reservations when Palestine was wiped off the map in 1948," he said.
"Millions of Palestinian refugees have been living for the past 60 years under harsh conditions so that Israel could continue to exist. And these countries, which have been emphasizing their keenness about human rights, insist on preventing these refugees from returning to their homes and property. Israel remains an alien organ in the Arab and Muslim region," the professor said.
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 37 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 5:51:07 AM | @ backworduck
I think you meant Anderson Copper's, September 21, 22, 2006 interview with the President of Iran .. and you are absolutely right. Anderson Cooper was pathetic.
@ right wing
Aren't you tired of having your intelligence insulted day after day?
Tell me this, Would you like to live under occupation?
Iran has repeatedly said that they would support the 2 state solution, even during the Anderson Cooper's pathetic example of interview. Bush also said that the US believes that the 2 state solution is the right path to peace. So, why are the Palestinians still living under occupation? | |
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dmotz
| Joined: 7/25/2006 Msg: 39 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 8:59:15 AM | Arri..... You attack Cooper because you do not like him...then you attack my intelligence? I search for the topic in question on ASK.COM.....Typed in "Iran wants Israel wiped off the map" and came up with all these URL`s...Hmmmmmmmm....believe what you will....not my problem you hate the west....
http://www.stockhideout.com/stockhideout-lounge/3951-u-s-strike-iran-print.html http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Briefs/7289.htm http://www.globalpolitician.com/articleshow.asp?ID=416&cid=1
The Issues with Iran Were Not Caused by the Iraq War Ross G. Kaminsky - 3/12/2005 Some have argued that the Iraq War has not been worth its long term strategic cost because of our current difficult and dangerous situation with Iran and with remaining Islamist terrorist organizations. In his recent piece, David Storobin of the Global Politician, argued that (1) Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad are very dangerous, and maybe increasingly so; (2) Iran is not negotiating in good faith about their nuclear program and fully intend to develop a nuclear weapon; (3) For several reasons, Iran wants to destroy Israel; (4)"Iran is everything anyone ever said about Iraq and more"; (5)"US troops are stuck in Iraq." While the above facts may be accurate, they can hardly be attributed to the war in Iraq. Other than the US troops being "stuck" in Iraq, each of these facts would be at least as true had we not taken down Saddam.
The Hezbollah issue is exceptionally dynamic given the flux in Lebanon. Much will depend on whether Hezbollah chooses to side with Syria or with their "host" country. At first glance, they appear to be siding with Syria, but they'll change in a heartbeat if it will maximize their power. It's conceivable that Syria will be under so much pressure from other Arab countries, as well as the US, that they might abandon Hezbollah. While may be impossible to predict with great confidence how that might change Hezbollah's behavior, it is likely that they will be less inclined towards violence without a state sponsor. The same goes, but to a lesser extent, for Islamic Jihad since their state sponsorship is less obvious and less subject to US pressure at this time. In both cases, it is probably that our actions in Iraq make us safer with respect to groups of this type.
On the other hand, I do agree that terrorists getting a nuclear weapon from Iran is a frightening thought, but not one which has become more likely due to the war. It is only because Iran has seen that we can occasionally be more than a paper tiger that they are even pretending to negotiate. Had we not gone to war, Iran would likely be moving ahead much more secretly and rapidly with nuclear weapon development. I predict that we will see Europeans cautiously bringing out "sticks" to deal with Iran despite their usual predilection for doing whatever they think will annoy us most.
Although Iran probably understands that the United States' military options are limited at this time due to both by military and diplomatic constraints, it also understands that there is a limit beyond which the US will ignore those restraining considerations. One of these limits would be proof that they had transferred a nuclear weapon to a terrorist group. Israel will likely have a much quicker trigger finger than Washington, another thing which can not be lost on Iran and which is not substantially affected by the war.
Among the by-products of the war may have been removing some of the American restraint of Israel. More than elsewhere in the world, Middle Easterners respect fear and respond to power...and nothing else. The fact that Washington demonstrated power and allowed Israel use theirs is a clear positive by-product of the war. Iran's desire to destroy Israel is no more enhanced than is its realization that Israel and the US are more determined than ever to stop it.
The combination of the death of Arafat (the father of modern terrorism) and the war in Iraq also increases the chance of a deal between Israel and the Palestinians. If this happens it will be a strong stabilizing force in the Middle East and it will be due at least in part to having gone into Iraq. That said, a quick or easy resolution to the Israel/Palestinian issue cannot be predicted in no small part because a large faction of the Palestinians do not want a solution. They still print maps which do not show Israel. These people will be swept away in the tide of history, swept away by their own people who realize that such ideology keeps Palestinians poor and in constant danger, but it will probably take time.
But coming back to Iran: Gary Sick, currently of Columbia University and long-time member of the National Security Council, recently argued that American intelligence often simply assumed the worst about other countries such as Iran (and as they did with Iraq). While the worst might be true and while we must be prepared for the worst, we must also consider in our dealings with Iran that our intelligence could be wrong.
It could be a very dangerous, but clever ploy by the Iranians to sound as if they're proceeding down the nuclear path while not actually doing so. A little imagination could think of interesting reasons to play this very high stakes game. This is highly unlikely, but surely possible.
It is probably true that "Iran is everything anyone ever said about Iraq and more", as was noted by David Storobin. The key for Washington is to keep the Iranians (and even the Europeans) unsure about how the White House will react. While it is usually advisable to keep your policies predictable, this is a complicated matter and requires a different type of "strategery." Bush engaged in excellent strategery when he answered reporters: "Suggestions that we are about to attack Iran are ridiculous.....But no options are off the table." It might have sounded like a Bush-ism, but was almost definitely a well-calculated tactic in the ongoing mind game with the Mullahs.
In summary:
· Terrorist groups are losing state sponsorship to a significant degree which means losing weapons, protection, and especially financing.
· The regional powers and players finally have respect for American willingness to use power, as well as allowing Israel use theirs if necessary.
· Iran is very dangerous and complicated, but no more so than before the war. Even the Europeans are now getting more interested in stick and carrot, rather than just the fine vegetable plate they usually serve.
· US troops are temporarily stuck in Iraq in fairly large numbers, but will soon be stuck in Iraq in numbers too small to cause Washington's military options to be limited. Furthermore, having troops "stuck" there has serious strategic advantages in America's ability to project power, both in terms of rapidity, familiarity with terrain, and with the subtle, but unmistakable force of the world simply knowing we're there. Ross Kaminsky earned a Political Science degree from Columbia University in 1987 and has been published in The New York Times, The Denver Post, The LA Times, and other major newspapers around the country. His blog can be found at http://blog.rossputin.com | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 40 | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 10:40:03 AM | Right
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1516930/posts
How come I see the quotes on this site and I read both the persian and English speechs of this guy on his own website, there is nothing? Something is fishy. Besides, if he was lying about it, now CNN and Fox would be showing both live videos of Iran's president that he had said to wipe Israel off the map and his explanation now of he never made such remarks. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 10:55:58 AM | Arri and Passionate,
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm
I posted this before and recieved no comment. This is an Arabic source, right? It confirms that idea, attributed to Ahmadinejad, that Israel 'should' be wiped off the map. The headline is:
"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map."
This source seems valid according to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aljazeera
Also, please note that my source is aljazeera.net , not aljazeera.com ... which wikipedia has called a conspiracy theory source. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 11:11:25 AM | @RWGG
A few words on your post. First off, I'm wondering if you have any true appreciation, or knowledge, for what is really going on in the Israel vs Palestinian conflict? Any understanding of what Zionism represents as an ideology, or how that ideology has been interpreted in the 'facts on the ground' of how Israel has organized its governance and society?
Do you understand that the Palestinians have been and continue to be ethnicly cleansed from their homelands ... and that this has been going on for generations now?
http://www.madre.org/articles/me/palbackground.html
Do you have any clear understanding of what a 'check point' is in the occupied territories, or why they really exist? Do you have any real understanding of who the settlers are, how they operate, and what the settlemements truly represent?
http://www.phrmg.org/monitor2001/apr2001.htm
Do you have any true appreciation for the fact that since Oslo what was left of any Palestinian lands has been carved up into isolated 'cantons' and that the map of what was once proposed as being available for a Palestinian state now resembles swiss cheese?
I ask not out of any attempt at smugness, but honestly, because truly I did not understand these things myself until fairly recently. While I don't generally agree with your positions, I do in fact think you try to be a fair minded person ... indeed a 'good guy' ... and I mention that as it is central to these questions because I believe any 'fair minded' person once exposed to the facts would be hard pressed to misidentify the good guys from the bad.
To be sure the Al Asqua Martyrs Brigade in the relative scheme of things are bad guys in that they target the innocent ... such miltancy however did not spring up in a vacumn ... as the settlers are every bit as nasty in attacking innocents although they do so systemically with direct government involvement, complicity, and support. The settlers are the forward tip of the spear in anexing Palestinian land, useful in inciting hatred and fear, exascerbating tensions, and provoking conflicts.
The whole idea is to make life within the occupied territories so untenable for the Palestinians that they either turn to turn to terror or grow weary and simply abandon their homes and lands and leave.
Either reaction is useful to the Israelis because both responses allow them to confiscate more lands, through the mechanisms of 'abandoned property' or needed security buffers and seperation barriers.
A few words specifically adressing the submitted piece sourced from 'freerepublic'.
First off, if there ever was a categorical source of incediary hatred and invective The Free Republic would be it ... I occasionally visit their forums ... and am astounded at the ability of these peoples propensity to hateful invective ... they seem to hate everything ... but the worst of their commentary is reserved for Arabs, Mohammed and Islam. Common are their claims that every Arab adult male is a 'boy bugger', a reference that implies ****ing young boys in the ass. Indeed they repeatedly claim that Mohammed himself, was a 'boy bugger'.
For those who might not believe me, I suppose they can venture over themselves ... but really how much more hateful and insulting can one get? Their commentary on 'liberals' is only very slightly less insulting, but decidedly hateful nonetheless. I can only stand so much of such a masochistic venture before I feel I need to shower to get the 'hate off', so nasty is their rhetoric. I don't even try to reason with those folks ... they are not amenable to having any civil discourse ... so convinced are they of their infalible 'rightness'. If anyone attempts they simply bar the poster that successfully argues against them.
More specifically:
Ahmadinejad said, “Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury. Any [Islamic leader] who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world."
I believe these comments are taken from Amadinejads lecture at the Zionism conference, and again I will state that comments taken from a Palestinian view on the Zionist State are analogous to comments on the Third Reich from a Jewish perspective. Neither would connote the will to destroy the peoples of the States but does connote a will to destroy their respective regimes.
Allow me ask how Jews felt about other Jews who cooperated with the Nazi regime?
Would the statement: 'Any [Jewish leader] who recognizes the Nazi regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Jewish world.' ... be taken as an incendiary call of alarm?
Regarding Israel's 'right to exist' is a technical argument that signifies more than the 'fact of existence'.
What does a "right to exist" mean exactly? There is no "right to exist" for states under international law. The formula has arisen in international diplomacy uniquely regarding Israel. It does not mean simply diplomatic recognition, which is the "fact" of existence. It does not mean recognizing Israel's "right to self-determination," either, or we would be using that famous term.
Let us pretend for a moment that Hamas is being asked to recognize Israel in the normal diplomatic sense. In this case, however, the EU position is unsupportable, because diplomatic recognition of a state routinely requires one bit of vital information: "right to exist" where? Israel's borders are not set. Even its plans for those borders are not known; with impressive brashness, Mr. Olmert has announced that we will not know until 2010.
It is entirely legitimate for Hamas to require firm confirmation of Israel's borders before recognizing it. It should also be incumbent on the international community to confirm where those borders will be before insisting that Hamas recognize Israel's "right" to them. Otherwise, recognizing Israel's "right to exist" could be construed to mean that Israel has a "right to exist" within whatever borders it chooses in coming years.
As the Palestinians stand to lose most of what is left of their homeland to this fuzziness, Hamas is refusing to endorse it. Is this extremist Islamic intransigence, warranting a funding freeze? Let us run a little thought experiment: Would Canadian, or Norwegian, or English, or French governments be called on the international carpet for not recognizing the "right to exist" of a neighboring state that is, with military force, settling its own ethnically defined population within contiguous walled cities and enclaves in Canadian, Norwegian, English or French national territories, while promising to carve those nations into "cantons?"
Absent clear borders, recognizing Israel's "right to exist" must mean something else. And of course it does. Clearly implicit in the term is Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. In other words, the "right" Hamas is being required to endorse is that Israel can legitimately compose itself as a state in Palestine that is populated and run primarily by Jews, primarily for Jews.
Such a state would thus be authorized by Hamas to sustain whatever laws and policies necessary to preserving its Jewish majority, even rejecting the return of Palestinian refugees mandated by international law. Or building a massive Wall on Palestinian land designed to protect the Jewish state from the "demographic threat" of mass non-Jewish citizenship-i.e., the Palestinians. Israel's would also be legitimized for past actions on the same agenda, such as expelling the Palestinians from their homes in 1948, and for its future plans, such as confining Palestine's indigenous people to cantons. http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley05112006.html
Regarding the wording contained in the Al Asqua pamphlet no where does the article quote Amadinejad directly saying Israel should be wiped off the map ... that is a paraphrase of the articles author, apparently.
Harking back to its pre-Oslo days when Fatah, an international terrorist organization, led the Arab struggle against the Jewish state, the group’s armed wing has become the first Palestinian organization to publicly identify with Iran’s president’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's call to “wipe Israel off the map.”
But one must be paying attention to see that.
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 11:47:51 AM | Passionate, I quoted a source that I believe to be noteworthy because its Arabic.
I don't have a video. Feel free to look that up yourself. If thats the standard you expected, you should have stated it from the beginning. I bet if I found a video of the speach you would required it to be shot from a different angle. lol
I also find it noteworthy that you, having no good answer to my source, ignore it. I guess anything that doesn't agree with with you already believe is wrong to you. Because of that, you are not truly discussing this issue, you are just spitting out propoganda. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 12:46:26 PM | yes, propaganda, lets see who's spitting it out...
"I take back the comment of the identifying marks... because I found:"
Now really look at what you found. Which do you believe? English.aljezeera.net or www.aljezeera.net or the translated pages from aljezeera.net? Not to mention aljezeera.com.
Or you could just watch the Anderson Cooper interview again. I just can’t get over this blatant abuse and open manipulation.
“THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(So they way change the transcript to fit the spin. Keep your eye on it. Watch it echo the Bush Admin. And don’t you just love the way they make the question into the story.)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. In the hour ahead, a special edition of 360, Showdown: Iran, including my exclusive interview with its president, who denies the Holocaust, defies the world, and may one day be the next nuclear threat for the U.S. ANNOUNCER: A 360 exclusive -- we go one on one with Iran's president.
COOPER: Do you really believe that the Holocaust never happened?
ANNOUNCER: His answer may surprise you, but is he telling the truth? Tonight, a 360 fact check on his comments to the U.N. and the world.”
COOPER: “At the U.N. you spoke with great passion of brotherhood, of peace and respect for all nations. Yet in Tehran last year, you spoke about wiping Israel off the face of the map, wiping Israel off the face of the map. That doesn't sound to many people in the United States -- not just in the government, to many people here who heard that through the media -- that doesn't sound like great respect for other nations. Do you want to wipe Israel off the face of the map?”
Notice he said it three times just so it would sink in.
And from that comment, not the answer, millions of Americans and Canadians now believe Ahmadinejad said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map.
Did you listen to his answers? Or by hearing Cooper say it 500 times in a few days you believe him?
There seems to be some issue in the exact translation of the original quote and which translation is chosen to be used that would make aljazeera.net suspect. I’m also suspect of news articles that don’t have an author.
This is an example of what Bush and Harper’s hero Leo Strauss would call a “noble lie”.
And I fear they may be right, people are so stupid, they only believe the last thing they heard.
“AHMADINEJAD (through translator): Well, given that all the questions are very similar, it speaks for itself.” (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0609/22/acd.02.html)
“And all the radios agree with all the TV’s, and all the magazines agree with all the radios and I keep hearing that same damned song everywhere I go.” Ani DiFranco | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 1:12:15 PM | backworduck,
There is certainly propoganda on both sides... what I am interested in, is substantiated fact resulting in my personal learning.
I see that you noticed I will retract things that I say, if I learn they are wrong. That should be an indication that I am interested in truth, not my propoganda... or yours for that matter.
Now really look at what you found. Which do you believe? English.aljezeera.net or www.aljezeera.net or the translated pages from aljezeera.net? Not to mention aljezeera.com.
What I found is a news source outside of the influence of US censorship or retranslation. It looks like you didn't understand at all what I said... which is that aljezeera.net, is the real deal and aljezeera.com is basicly gossip. english.aljezeera.net is a subdomain, under the control of aljezeera.net.
I don't listen to Cooper, and in fact have no idea who it is.
same damned song everywhere I go.” Ani DiFranco This is true on both sides of the fence... Facts please!
Here is the actual debate, quoted from darjeeling post #1:
One of the calls for punative action against Iran via UN economic sanctions or possible military attacks against its fledgling nuclear program, is based on the premise that Iran must not be allowed to develop even peaceful nuclear capability, because of its radical stance. As evidence they point to Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as having "threatened to wipe Israel off the map."
Turns out that the accusation is more debatable than fact.
In my previous post and citation, I show a place where an Arabic source states clearly, "Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map." ... So, what am I to do here? Believe the Arab source that spells it out clearly? Or believe some guy that says he was quoting poetry?
I think that many of you are so steadfast in your belief one way or another, that you are less interested in the truth than being right. :( | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 1:12:48 PM | Strange
I am simply asking for proof. Isn't it easy writing something out on the internet? At least it is for me. I could make you a website and put everything on. If he has said it so, there must be audio or video of it. That would be real proof. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map Posted: 9/23/2006 1:16:02 PM | Passionateman,
Its not easy to make a website like that... and one could get sued by stealing the domain name of a publicly known organization, such as Al Jazeera.
How many of us here could write all that Arabic on their website? or would go through the trouble and expense.
Al Jazeera is a news site... as good as any that you have. | |
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