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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 3:59:26 PM | I can go on and, and on.
So what!
I believe that Group X benefits from today's stand point due to what Group X treated Group Y in the past.
Not hard to understand.
I can go on and and give great examples on how whites in particular gained the edge by murder, genocide, theft ...etc
Worst part was that your ancestor's were able to get away with it.
If you deny that you are a complete idiot....which I already think of you!
You come across with all this mumbo jumbo and my concept is quite simple.
So eat shit and bark at the moon....Moron! | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:06:20 PM | Deo, because you're unintelligent, and probably uneducated, my point has eluded you for a third time now. I'll try to dumb it down for you.
It doesn't matter that whites did X, Y, and Z to minorities long ago. It doesn't even matter that they benefit today because of it (so do minorities, if we wanted to be accurate about it, but since when has race baiting been about truth). It doesn't matter because these transgressions have absolutely no moral, ethical, behavioral, or culpable reflection, whatsoever, on modern individuals who did not participate in these transgressions. You plainly will not look at people as individuals. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:16:27 PM | Sure I understand to look and judge people as individuals. But I'm also not naive.
I'm also looking at a collectivist stand point as well inwhich I feel is very valid.
I'm not a politically correct person and making generalizations to a certain degree makes sense.
I am very well educated and highly intelligent....thank you!! Have known that from a very young age.
FYI:
I have a B.S degree in Finance, well traveled, speak three languages fluently, run a very profitable business (despite of the economic down turn) and have made well on several real estate investment endeavors in the past.
This particular subject can lead us far beyond the beaten path if you choose. But find it a total waste of time trying to get my point across. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:26:49 PM |
It doesn't matter because these transgressions have absolutely no moral, ethical, behavioral, or culpable reflection, whatsoever, on modern individuals who did not participate in these transgressions.
C'mon guy, you know thats not entirely true. As far as moral and ethical maybe, behavioral is another thing altogether. History laid the ground for a lot of todays behavior. Where you live, go to school, shop, party etc.
As far as benefiting from the transgressions of their forefathers its in your face everyday. There is a silent caste system in this country even among whites so you really cant say history has no bearing on today.
Its entirely possible for someone born black to get it together and succeed and many do but you have to agree that the scales are not always balanced in the opportunities available.
That being said I am not here to accuse anyone of anything. I really could care less what someone thinks about me ( this is not addressed directly at anyone). You are entitled to your opinion. I know my own shortcomings. I will not waste my time concerned about what anyone thinks about me because at the end of the day we all have our own problems.
I merely observe and many times laugh hysterically at ignorance. If we both work the same job, earn the same ammount, live in the same neighboorhood, you can lie to yourself all day that your skin somehow elevates you above me and this in itself is what stunts growth. Once again, this is addressed to no one directly because those who harbor such views know themselves.  | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:27:32 PM | To Deo:
Your (poorly reasoned) point has already gotten across, I was simply trying to point out how poorly reasoned it was. It's fantastic that you can entertain the cognitive dissonance of simultaneous individualism and collectivism, but it doesn't make it valid. To the contrary, your point is very much invalid. But there's a brick wall between your brain and your mouth, and far be it for me to attempt yet another breach. Good luck with your little B.S. in Finance, kiddo.
To Slow_Hand:
C'mon guy, you know thats not entirely true. As far as moral and ethical maybe, behavioral is another thing altogether. History laid the ground for a lot of todays behavior. Where you live, go to school, shop, party etc.
Fair enough, but what I was trying to convey is that the behavior of another, distant person, has no direct control over the behavior of another, equally distant person.
As far as benefiting from the transgressions of their forefathers its in your face everyday.
Never said it wasn't. What I said was, nobody is owed anything by white people today, simply because, through historical happenstance, we have advantages through no control of our own. Such a preposterous premise would lead to too many absurd results if its integration into our institutions were earnestly attempted. Suddenly, good looking people would "owe" ugly people some sort of reparation; smart people would "owe" dumb people a social service; tall people would owe short people, and so on.
There is a silent caste system in this country even among whites so you really cant say history has no bearing on today.
History is one factor out of a countless array of factors that determine why Sets X, Y, and Z will perform dissimilarly or similarly. There is no rational justification for cherry picking the history factor, and wielding it as a weapon of radical institutional change, other than the emotions historical events evoke. That's not good enough for asking innocents today to sacrifice for the crimes of others. It just isn't.
Its entirely possible for someone born black to get it together and succeed and many do but you have to agree that the scales are not always balanced in the opportunities available.[./quote]
You're probably right about that. There are, however, ways of redressing perceived and real inequalities without coercing those not responsible for their existence.
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:30:39 PM | I also must mention....
I find you to be very naive and extremely uneducated on this particular topic.
I suggest that you educate yourself on racial dynamics in North America and it's history and how the past has an impact on the future.
You'll find that you lack the critical skills necessary to make an intelligent consesus on this subject. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:34:06 PM | Don't need any luck...KIDDO!
I have done very well for myself.
Much better than those who have a so called advanced degrees.
Besides....The world is full of educated fools.
After all...You are living proof of it....
KIDDO! | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:35:51 PM | Deo,
This seems to be the New thinking, a group claims all groups are Now equal, not taking into account the benefits they enjoy by their groups being in power for all those years.
Of course no one living has culpability for slavery, but that doesn't mean their group didn't prosper because of subjugation and segregation.
Some folks speak of the races of modern day as being on a equal footing, that their is no longer a need for groups of color to expect any preferential consideration. That might be the case, I can accept that, so long as the group once holding all the power, admits that they still have an institutionalized and accepted advantage to this day. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:39:47 PM | I also must mention....
I find you to be very naive and extremely uneducated on this particular topic.
I suggest that you educate yourself on racial dynamics in North America and it's history and how the past has an impact on the future.
You'll find that you lack the critical skills necessary to make an intelligent consesus on this subject.
You don't want to compare educations with me, buddy. Let's just leave that where it is.
Suffice to say, I have never denied any assertions by you of racial dynamics in this thread. You are, yet again, missing the point. Nor have I, like SAGuy implies, suggested, intimated, or implied, that all races are on equal footing or that whites haven't benefit from wrongs committed by other people, a long time ago. That accusations comes out of... nowhere, as far as I can tell. I'm quite certain that all races are not on equal footing today, and that I benefit from being white (my reply to that is, so what?). Nevertheless, that inequality is neither my fault, or my problem, and so I cannot rationally be held responsible for it. THAT is the point you keep missing, and it has nothing to do with education of racial dynamics in North American history. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:20:33 PM | Look buddy I'll go toe to toe with you any day on cognitive abilities any day! You far from intimidate me in that arena.
But all insults aside...I'll procede!
No, it is not your fault nor is it the fault of those whites who are living today for the past actions of your so called ancestors! Nor do I condone reperations of any sort. Albeit there may be a segment of the population in today's society that may deem it as justice.
I beleive in personal responsibility and overcoming any obstacles that life throws at you. Irregardless of the situation.
The world doesn't owe me shit!!
It was here before I was and will be here long after I'm dead and gone. I for one, abhore self entitlement style attitudes.
However, I am fully aware of the racist nature of whites and their historically and culturally taught supremacy over others.
A mind set that came with malice and ill-intent to destroy other civilizations and acquire economic power on the backs of others.
No race in this world is a saint nor perfect!
But yours has fallen from grace....if it exists!
The intentional genocide of the North, Central and Native Americans. A genocide through war, famine and biological disease. The intentional spreading of small pox, tb and chicken pox that wiped out over 80% of the population.
You'll never be taught that in the white education system though. Google it! Don't take my word for it.
Over four hundred years of black enslavement and oppression on the North American continent. If it wasn't for the plight and struggles of blacks in the 60's civil rights would not exist as we know it today...No real thanks to whites!!
I hear plenty of whites with racist banter towards blacks and other so called minorities and think...Hell! They were not granted civil rights until 1964....Thats less than fifty years ago!! That's like yesterday on a historical time scale.
No one is asking for hand outs....just an awareness of how your kind came into power!
And was able to get away with it!
A supremacist attitude that has been allowed to resonate even until today.
You are an exclusionary race for the most part. But feel it is finally starting to change.
Whites have practiced economic exclusionism for centuries on stolen resources and kept others out.
You have secured your power structure and made damn sure to keep it to yourselves.
Yes, the advent of a black president is a historical milestone and a proud accomplishment considering our history.
Yet that supremacist style attitude still exists and not everyone is on an equal playing field.
I don't hate anybody!! But I do think that this country needs to talk about racial dynamics. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:32:38 PM | Did not read anything posted. Just found the title interesting and had to comment.
There is no such thing as reverse discrimination! A group is either discriminated against or not, where is the reverse thing. The word is not race specific, get it right! | |
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| Reverse Discrimination
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:35:37 PM | I'm always amused when "White" Americans step over all the racist and prejudiced practices in this country to find single episode where they have been treated unfairly.
Sooo..now that you've "righted" a "wrong" that "affected" you...what about the many,many racist issues facing the other 80 million of us "non-White" Americans?
Or did you "forget" about THAT? | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:37:30 PM |
nobody is owed anything by white people today, simply because, through historical happenstance, we have advantages through no control of our own
That's not good enough for asking innocents today to sacrifice for the crimes of others.
Its not a matter of you personally oweing something unless you are a company that benefited from free labor. The issue of reparations is complicated and when brough up the main factors are confirming through records those companies that are still in business today that benefited immensely from free labor. There were many slave owners but it is not realistic to go door to door interupting Mr Smiths pot roast and saying " hey, your great great great grand daddy had some slaves so we are here to collect XYZ dollars.
The target in mind is the major violators, tobacco companies, soft drink manufacturers ( I will leave out names here because I do not wish to engage in another argument ) etc. If a company made billions because they did not pay a few hundred thousands or millions in labor costs then in all fairness asking that company today to pay up is not exactly unfair. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:40:19 PM | PS...I must say
When someone walks into your home and kills its inhabitants, pillages the interior and then steals the realestate!....and most importantly is able to get away with it.
Guess what??
That's not supremacy!
It's called criminality!! | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:28:47 PM |
Look buddy I'll go toe to toe with you any day on cognitive abilities any day!
You're off to a great start with that redundant sentence, there, genius.
However, I am fully aware of the racist nature of whites
The "racist nature of whites"? Please empirically demonstrate said racist "nature". And no, citing historic examples of individuals who happen to be white does not demonstrate the white race's "nature". So, illuminate us, if you would, about our "nature".
historically and culturally taught supremacy over others.
Nobody taught ME that. Looks like you're wrong again, huh?
A mind set that came with malice and ill-intent to destroy other civilizations and acquire economic power on the backs of others.
What does that have to do with white individuals today? You really don't get it, do you?
But yours has fallen from grace....if it exists!
The intentional genocide of the North, Central and Native Americans. A genocide through war, famine and biological disease. The intentional spreading of small pox, tb and chicken pox that wiped out over 80% of the population.
Over four hundred years of black enslavement and oppression on the North American continent. If it wasn't for the plight and struggles of blacks in the 60's civil rights would not exist as we know it today...No real thanks to whites!!
Okay, this conversation has degenerated into the comical. You're clearly not a serious person, with thoughtful opinions.
You keep citing historical examples that nobody denied. Yes, some people who were also white (some of them were also tall, some short, some had big noses, some probably even had big feet) did mean things to other people who were not white. K. Now what? What's your point? Because these facts have nothing whatsoever to do with anything being discussed. And what I thought we were discussing is whether society, me included, owe any sort of service to the decedents of those individuals? My answer is emphatically, and rationally, of course not -- not in the slightest degree. Given your sentiment above, you seem to agree. So, what's all the hubbub, bub?
You'll never be taught that in the white education system though. Google it! Don't take my word for it.
Actually, in a prolonged, yet failed, attempt to guilt trip me and my fellow white students, I was "taught" all of the general incidents you cite above. In my "white education system". Go figure.
I hear plenty of whites with racist banter towards blacks and other so called minorities and think...Hell! They were not granted civil rights until 1964....Thats less than fifty years ago!! That's like yesterday on a historical time scale.
What do these people have to do with me? *snaps fingers* Over here, boy genius. You're talking to me now, not these other "whites".
No one is asking for hand outs
Now that's simply not true.
just an awareness of how your kind came into power!
I've been aware for years. I just don't particularly care. No more so than I care about any given historical artifact of no significant importance to me and my interests.
And was able to get away with it!
Oh no! You should build a time machine, travel back in time with your posse, and show them what 2009 justice is all about! Good luck, Mighty Mouse!
A supremacist attitude that has been allowed to resonate even until today.
Who here has a supremacist attitude?
You are an exclusionary race for the most part.
I haven't excluded anybody today. Okay, well, that's not true. I told a co-worker to get out of my office and shut the door on him. But that isn't because I'm white, it's because he's annoying.
Oh, wait, you're talking about those dead people again, aren't you? Will you ring me on your time phone when you finally go back in time and bring them to justice?
Whites have practiced economic exclusionism for centuries on stolen resources and kept others out.
Dead people again.
You have secured your power structure and made damn sure to keep it to yourselves.
I secured *my* power through hard work and discipline. I assure you, I keep what's mine not because I'm white, but because it's mine.
Or were you yet again talking about dead people?
Yes, the advent of a black president is a historical milestone and a proud accomplishment considering our history.
Well, I'm not sure I can share in your enthusiasm in our election of what I think to be an unqualified person to the Office of the Presidency, and I sure don't think voting in an incompetent is a milestone (it's all too normal, sadly), but as a gesture of good will, I will submit that the first black President is a historical footnote. See, that's called comprise. At least you aren't still whining about dead people.
Yet that supremacist style attitude still exists and not everyone is on an equal playing field.
So go bother some supremacists.
PS...I must say
When someone walks into your home and kills its inhabitants, pillages the interior and then steals the realestate!....and most importantly is able to get away with it.
There you go complaining about dead people again!
Guess what??
That's not supremacy!
It's called criminality!!
Actually, criminality requires criminal laws to be violated. But what do I know, I'm just a criminal attorney -- surely you'll set me straight on that.
T0 Slow_hand:
Its not a matter of you personally oweing something unless you are a company that benefited from free labor. The issue of reparations is complicated and when brough up the main factors are confirming through records those companies that are still in business today that benefited immensely from free labor. There were many slave owners but it is not realistic to go door to door interupting Mr Smiths pot roast and saying " hey, your great great great grand daddy had some slaves so we are here to collect XYZ dollars.
The target in mind is the major violators, tobacco companies, soft drink manufacturers ( I will leave out names here because I do not wish to engage in another argument ) etc. If a company made billions because they did not pay a few hundred thousands or millions in labor costs then in all fairness asking that company today to pay up is not exactly unfair.
The courts have rejected this argument at every turn, and will likely continue to do so. For one, any statute of limitations will have long tolled by the time you bring a modern lawsuit. Secondly, as an alternative, the common law just doesn't have any remedies for what you're seeking. Thirdly, good luck proving tortious causation in court. It's virtually impossible to prove that, but-for these past wrongs, defendants X, Y, and Z would not have prospered anyway. As for damages, forget about it. Calculating damages for something like that would get nowhere fast. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:57:28 PM | Actually, criminality requires criminal laws to be violated. But what do I know, I'm just a criminal attorney -- surely you'll set me straight on that
Somehow I don't think you are a civil rights attorney! | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 7:01:12 PM | I don't think you understand my approach..Boy wonder!!
Don't take this as personally.
I'm not attacking you on a personal level.
I don't want to discuss your politically correct views.
Understand my historically holistic approach to racial dynamics.
How hard is it man?????...gosh! | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:06:36 PM | Yes, the advent of a black president is a historical milestone and a proud accomplishment considering our history.
Well, I'm not sure I can share in your enthusiasm in our election of what I think to be an unqualified person to the Office of the Presidency, and I sure don't think voting in an incompetent is a milestone (it's all too normal, sadly), but as a gesture of good will, I will submit that the first black President is a historical footnote. See, that's called comprise. At least you aren't still whining about dead people.
I was referring to a historical accomplishment!
Not his policies!
I thought you lawyers were good at reading between the lines!! | |
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| Reverse Discrimination
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:17:14 PM | I think everyone is racist plain and simple! I've dated mexicans who hated blacks, I've worked with asians who hated blacks, I had a Native American/Irish BF who also hated blacks, but seemed to idolize mexican gang behaviour. When I was a kid I read books making jokes on Italians, Pollocks (sp), hippies (not a race, but worth bashing I spose). My step mom was Hawaiian, my step dad was Italian. I am a mutt, but I know what's in my bloodline! My hairdresser is Vietnamese, and recently said "I'm not racist, but....and went on to comment on a specific race who seem to thrive on destroying the nice freebies the liberal lefties seem so hell-bent and determined to give them in an effort to lift them from their pathetic and uninspired existence. Perhaps if they spent as much time educating themselves as they do standing on corners next to liquor stores, they'd be able to earn their riches like so many others who come to this country and thrive! See, I find that all races stick to their own as much as possible and behind closed doors, they are racists. Sure there are some who cross the lines and good for them, perhaps they have far more guts than the rest of us because they're willing to cross the color barriers and see others for who they are rather than what color they're skin is...! On the other hand, I tend to treat all people I come in contact with, with respect (if they are behaving in a respectful manner). If someone is being an a$$hole, regardless of color, they do not deserve respect (least not from me). And of course if I'm being an a$$, then I deserve no respect either. At the end of the day, we all have the same needs, wants, desires and dream to fulfill and when we do choose to get to know each other and get along, we evolve and grow and expand into more tolerable and even happy people. Viva la differences, and pass the chowmein!
I have to agree with the OP regarding to immigrants (of any race) who do not wish to ASSIMILATE into the American culture. Damn, when my ancestors came to America, they stopped speaking their native tongue and embraced their new country and all it had to offer. The men joined the military and fought for OUR FREEDOM! They loved this new country enough to turn their backs on what they left behind and look forward to what they could create here! I never heard them call anyone a racist epitat (sp?), it was not done nor allowed by any of my family.
I think right now we really need to focus on keeping America FREE to all who come here LEGALLY and protecting our Constitution from the imposter ignorantly elected into the office of President of this great nation. Beware my friends, for Obama is selling U.S. "down the road". God help us if we don't wake up soon!!!
best all! | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:21:43 PM | | Deo, I didn't suggest you were referring to his policies. I suggested that I cannot share your enthusiasm because his policies and incompetence, for me, mar the historical accomplishment. I further noted that the accomplishment is a mere footnote, because, really, that's all it is. | |
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wade_
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Joined: 6/19/2009
Msg: 121 | |
| Reverse Discrimination
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:23:49 PM | racism is racism. discrimination is discrimination. reverse any of those and you have inclusion/love/acceptance. racism isn't owned by any race... stop using the term 'reverse racism' to refer to people hating me because I am white. it isn't reverse racism, it's racism..
come-****ing-on people. did I really have to state this? I'm kind of dissapointed that it wasn't obvious to some of you. | |
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| Reverse Discrimination
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:45:54 PM | I see it at work. The Supervisors are afraid of being sued for discrimination. They make up excuses and protect certain groups.
These guys can call off all they want and just about do what they want. I do what they do and I hear about it. They even leave half way through the shift, sleep on the job, etc.
I'm there everyday, but God forbid I get stopped by a snowstorm. | |
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| In my opinion.....
Posted: 7/5/2009 3:34:01 AM |
However, I am fully aware of the racist nature of whites and their historically and culturally taught supremacy over others.
Care to cite some examples that are relevant in modern times? Every example you've given is about as relevant in 2009 as a Betamax.
Modern America has produced people like Michael Moore who is so masochistic that he virtually apologizes for being white at every opportunity and does all he can to reaffirm the notion that white is bad and black is good. He also does the same thing with gender.
There is an entire half of the country devoted to this idea in varying degrees (from genuine equality to "forgive me for being white"). It's called the left wing. | |
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| Reverse Discrimination
Posted: 10/3/2009 1:57:52 AM |
Who are the true racists now?
American “whites” are accused of racism, bigotry, intolerance… if they even so much as try to defend what they have always had, or resist changing to what they consider unacceptable. And they don’t even have to be “white”. As long as they are perceived as such, they are hated just for not agreeing.
Gays, blacks, Mexicans, or any other minority or special interest group can go around espousing THEIR beliefs, although completely contrary to that of the majority, and they are PROTECTED. Why is it that “whites” are the only people who are not allowed to even voice an opinion, and are the only ones who get those nasty labels? If everyone is supposed to be equal and this is supposed to be a democratic society where everyone has the same rights, why aren’t Caucasians allowed their voice? Why do they just get slammed for not agreeing with every special interest group? Seems the TRUE racism any more is against white people in America. Seems to me that all the crap about using a name in a math test being racist, that bigamy should be legalized for bisexuals, the whole country should learn every language of every immigrant to the US, the US should allow special interest groups to completely disrespect and rewrite the Star Spangled Banner, airlines should allow larger people to fill 2 or 3 seats but not charge any more….is nothing but reverse discrimination by these groups. Americans should just be allowed to be Americans without everyone expecting us to change what we are, and have been, for the whims of anyone who wants to yell and snivel loud enough to get their way. Not accepting something or wanting it, is not the same as racism and intolerance, it is personal preference. I could go through every profile on this site and find something that each profile claims to not like or approve of. So is every single person in here intolerant etc? Wow, man, you hate everybody. How delightful.  | |
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| Reverse Discrimination
Posted: 10/3/2009 2:02:57 AM |
At 17, walking down Alamo Plaza during my lunch break, I was approached by a black man who stopped me on the street (where I was entering a restaurant) and asked if I would go out with him.
I said no.
He said, very loudly, that I didn't want to go out with him because he was black.
I, also very loudly, said, no - I didn't want to go out with him because I didn't know
his name, didn't know anything about him and because he was foolish enough to stop
me on the street and make ignorant comments like that.
At the time I registered this encounter as an attempt to pull some kind of reverse discrimination; possibly that definition is wrong... but the implication was clear to me.
This young man was accostomed to using his color to intimidate.
^^ That is a perfect example of what I mean And this is one example of one person doing something idiotic. Prejudice and descrimination are based on thinking that all people of a certain race, color, ethnicity, gender, religion, etc., act and think the same way: they don't. | |
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