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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > So are you going to be in heaven?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 26
So are you going to be in heaven?Page 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
So Hezron, how do you find Heaven one the tough days as well as the beautiful days? Or is your heaven conditional, like so many other earthy things seem to be? If it is conditional, what are the conditions to achieve, find or arrive there?
 zenandtheartof
Joined: 3/2/2006
Msg: 27
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 8:48:13 AM
I think the concept of an afterlife in heaven is silly. If you can't enjoy what is here and now what makes you think it will be any different when you die
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 28
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 9:39:14 AM

You have no clue as to who wrote the bible and you say it does not matter. I have some land for you in Florida ....it should not matter who is there ...just buy it and give your blind faith to whomever is there will let you stay once you are there.
If the land was "inspired by God," I would buy it.



All scripture is NOT inspired by God otherwise there would not be over a thousand years of persecuting the Jews..
That makes no sense. What does one have to do with the other?

.

New testament scripture was altered to benefit the Church's position over its rival factions.
Only in your world


Let me ask you two bits...do you think you are better than me because you find the bible inspiring and I do not?
No


I respect that whatever faith you have, you got there on your own...good for you. But if I do not find the bible inspiring, does that make me inferior to you?
But you, clearly, don't understand what "inspired by God" means. (Not me..."all scripture.")
 Babylonia
Joined: 1/27/2005
Msg: 29
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 10:05:17 AM


New testament scripture was altered to benefit the Church's position over its rival factions.

Only in your world


Assuming his world is the same as mine, being planet Earth, the bible indeed changed in both translation and blatant editing throughout the millenium by the rulers of the day.

King James, for one. The Roman Catholic Church for another.

The result? Your new KJV or International Version, and the conspicuous absense of other books in the NT such as Thomas, Judas....to name a couple.
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 30
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 10:48:52 AM

Assuming his world is the same as mine, being planet Earth, the bible indeed changed in both translation and blatant editing throughout the millenium by the rulers of the day.

King James, for one. The Roman Catholic Church for another.

The result? Your new KJV or International Version, and the conspicuous absense of other books in the NT such as Thomas, Judas....to name a couple.
If you're talking paraphrases and translations, that is another subject, though it usually has to do with the "intent" of the word...rather than complete rewriting. The original Greek still stands and any good translation translates from there and into modern verbiage with no alteration. And Catholic verses protestant is a whole other subject and different religions in that respect. Both believe their Bible to be correct. As do Mormons.
 zenandtheartof
Joined: 3/2/2006
Msg: 31
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 10:53:15 AM
I wonder if we will be arguing in heaven too.
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 32
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 11:25:25 AM
RobertJ: New testament scripture was altered to benefit the Church's position over its rival factions.
Twobits: Only in your world

Perhaps you can then explain why the EARLIEST greek manuscript of Mark makes no mention of a resurrection story but ends abrubtly. Umm ...that happened in your world too for it is based on fact.
 sidheanwwyn
Joined: 12/13/2004
Msg: 33
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 11:52:22 AM
twobits - if you don't believe that there have been changes made in the bible, then maybe you have an explanation for why there are so many DIFFERENT versions of it. there was a very long period of time when anyone who had enough political or religious power (usually the same thing) could make changes in the bible. king james made changes to justify his divorces, among other things. this is a well known fact.
 knee_hacker
Joined: 11/15/2005
Msg: 34
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 11:56:32 AM
No one's goign to heaven because it's a place made up by those with wishful thinking and a wild imagination. Read the bible and look at all the wild claims that are supposed to have had happen.
 FarmBoyTy
Joined: 11/3/2004
Msg: 35
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 3:09:51 PM
Saying that the bible was changed is a very serious thing to say, so I would very much like to see any evidence that will support this claim. After all, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Luke 21:33). To say that the bible has been changed is saying that either a) God is weak and cannot stop humans from changing His word; or b) God changes His mind, meaning He doesn't know the out come of every situation. Now yes, there are parts of the bible, like a sentence or a paragraph, that seem to have been added to the bible by someone else other then the author. That is for instance, letter's Paul wrote seem to have one or two parts added that are not in the earliest manuscript. However, these parts only go to further support was is already written, they emphasis what was previously put.

But yes, there have been times when people have tried to change the bible, however, because of claims like this and other such claims, scholars are always looking for what doesn't match the earliest manuscripts. Besides, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:8). So would you want to add to the God's will if you had that warning? I sure hope not!

Oh, and yes, I sure plan on going to heaven! =D
...do we get name tags? cause there's going to be a lot of people there and I'm bad with names.....jokes
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 36
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 3:49:13 PM
Mdmurdoc
You yourself have admitted that things were changed in the bible. Was there not a Revelation quote that if one word was added too much or one word taken away the punishment would infinite?
The earliest Gospel was that of Mark written approximately 40 years after the crucifixion. Matthew and Luke are now shown to have copied about 65% of Mark. So much for eyewitness testimony. The oldest versions we have of Mark contain no resurrection story. Quite the omission.
More importantly, John can be traced back to 115AD, some seventy years after the crucifixion.
More to the topic of this thread is Saint Peter himself. Matthew has Jesus give Peter the keys to the church....closest thing to a successor but when we read Paul....Peter is NOT the head of the Church but James is. Peter was put into the bible to give Rome control over all the Churches. It makes no sense that Peter is the "rock" on which Jesus builds his church and then Paul recognizes James as the head of the Jerusalem Church.

take care
Robert
 FarmBoyTy
Joined: 11/3/2004
Msg: 37
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 4:06:21 PM
I did not say that things were changed, only that there have been parts added to emphasis something. I do not see how one can believe in God, holding the bible as God's word, yet say that God allowed man to change His word to fit man's own will. That would be the equivalent to saying that "my god isn't perfect". Also, neither Peter nor Paul nor James are the rock which the church is based on. Jesus is the only one that the church is based on;

"For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task." 1 Corinthians 3:4-5
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 38
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 4:29:17 PM
Mdmurdoc,

Please read Matthew 16:18

"And I tell you that you are Peter, [ Peter means rock.] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades [ Or hell] will not overcome it."

This contradicts what you are saying.
 FarmBoyTy
Joined: 11/3/2004
Msg: 39
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 4:47:04 PM
Is Peter the one that saves us? Did Peter die for us? Did Peter give us life? Nopers! And if you say that I contradict it, then you saying that the bible contradicts itself, which of course it does not. I will give the rest of the text that I quoted from;

"For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building." 1 Corinthians 3:4-9

And another

"What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?" 1 Corinthians 1:12-13

Peter was merely a man that Christ used, "Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?" Matthew 23:17

The church is like a scultpure, and and I worship the one who sculpts, not the tool which he used.
 HaPenis
Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 40
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 5:19:15 PM
then you saying that the bible contradicts itself, which of course it does not.
LMFAO. That is the funniest thing I've heard all day, thanks for the laugh.
 knee_hacker
Joined: 11/15/2005
Msg: 41
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 5:25:36 PM
church is a place for christans to compare they're godly lvl and ppl are judges. They act nice but are fake and restricting. god walking on water ? travelling to heaven on a cloud ? like wtf ? building an arch in a dumbed down technological world ?
 FarmBoyTy
Joined: 11/3/2004
Msg: 42
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 5:35:16 PM
Actually church is a place of worship and to celebrate our heavenly Father. People are not judged at church. I question if you have ever been to one and if you have whether or not you actually heard what was said or if you heard what only you wanted to hear. I do not understand what you mean by fake either? I am the same person at church as I am at every other point in my life. Why are those things so hard to believe? An Almighty being that created all things having control over all things? That makes perfect sense. A being that created something which does not have power over it, that is flawed, and yes, that is man.

Also, when I said the that would mean the bible would contradict itself, which is impossible, is not funny what so ever. The bible is the Word of God, the true author, one that knows the bigging and the end. Therefore, by assuming our Father is the True Almighty, the bible, therefore, cannot contradict itself. Hope that helps!
 .liv2222.
Joined: 4/16/2006
Msg: 43
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 6:02:51 PM

Also, when I said the that would mean the bible would contradict itself, which is impossible, is not funny what so ever. The bible is the Word of God, the true author, one that knows the bigging and the end. Therefore, by assuming our Father is the True Almighty, the bible, therefore, cannot contradict itself. Hope that helps!


Mdmurdoc, the bible was written by MEN -- flawed, biased, human MEN who, like Robert mentioned, were not eye witnesses. The stories had been passed around by word of mouth long before being recorded, which, as you may remember by playing telephone as a kid, easily changes the original story. Heck, just look back on your own memories from your childhood and ask your parents for their version of the story; I'm sure you'll find major differences...

God, some of the events my sister and I are CERTAIN took place, my parents say didn't. Those moments in our lives are still so real to us. Through research, etc. I've learned that they were shared astral travels, which is incredibly interesting to think about...

As for showing how the bible contradicts itself, I'll leave that up to Robert -- he has far more knowledge in this field than I do...I'm sure he can even provide references.

Robert -- I'm eagerly awaiting your response!!


Oh, and for the record, Mdmurdoc, I do believe in a perfect God who completely defines love...which is WHY I don't believe in the concept of hell, sin, or the bible and why I fully embrace reincarnation and spirituality.
 oceanpearl202
Joined: 9/21/2005
Msg: 44
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 6:59:14 PM
I wouldn't be so obnoxious to say that "I'm in", but I'm working on it every day :)

OP
 nightlord
Joined: 1/24/2006
Msg: 45
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 8:10:13 PM
Heh. My views allow me to voice opposing sides of an arguement. Anyone who keeps up with my arguements knows I don't believe in a Higher Being, or an Afterlife... but seeing as the FACT is that, in the end, none of us knows shit, I like to keep as open a mind as possible.

I can no more prove God doesn't exist as any of you can prove that he does. And as for my Christian-like approach... we're discussing a very Christian-like subject.

It comes down to this: If you're going to argue whether or not you'll be allowed access to Heaven, then firstly you admit there IS a Heaven, and next one has to define the parameters of said admittance. If the discussion is based on the Bible, then there can be ZERO assumptions as to who will be allowed and who will not. My above point was that Judgement is supposedly reserved for God, and God alone. Yet self-proclaimed followers of this God would ignore that law and pronouce themselves worthy of Heaven, and others less than worthy.
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 46
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 8:21:47 PM

Perhaps you can then explain why the EARLIEST greek manuscript of Mark makes no mention of a resurrection story but ends abrubtly. Umm ...that happened in your world too for it is based on fact.
And you have read the earliest Greek manuscript?
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 47
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 8:43:57 PM

Message: twobits - if you don't believe that there have been changes made in the bible, then maybe you have an explanation for why there are so many DIFFERENT versions of it. there was a very long period of time when anyone who had enough political or religious power (usually the same thing) could make changes in the bible. king james made changes to justify his divorces, among other things. this is a well known fact.
I thought I had clarified my view in a previous post, but YES translations and paraphrases have been created which alter verbiage. A good translation from the original text is still valid and unaltered. Some texts border on interpretation rather than actual text. What you are claiming about "King James" is not a "well known fact" except around "skeptic" circles, but in those venues most anything critical about the Bible is considered fact.
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 48
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 8:57:38 PM
Two-bits,
The earliest Greek manuscript of Mark that we have is for all to see. It does not contain a resurrection story. I do not have to read it to know that all scholars dealing with that piece have admitted that it contains no resurrection story.

liv22
Well we can start with the Christmas story. There are two different genealogies linking King David to Jesus (apparently Jesus' father Joseph had two very different fathers). The virgin birth story provides some problems as well. The greek word for virgin could also have meant "young" woman. Paul mentions that Christ was born of a woman...no mention of any virgin birth. Also, there were many religions at that time that had a virgin birth and some amazing similarities to Christianity. The godman Mithras was born on the same day as Jesus ....December 25th. He came to save mankind, had his own eucharist and his own disciples...quite extraordinary.
There is more and I will discuss them later. Please see my thread on Minucius Felix. Minucius Felix was a Christian apologist who amazingly denies that a criminal on a cross could represent Christianity. It also states that a man could not be God or the other way around.

Peace and pax!
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 49
view profile
History
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 9:45:17 PM
Ha Ha...I find it rather amusing that some here quote a line or two, and say..."see, I told ya"

Like ALL... shall I underline that...ALL religious books, are open to interpetation! Go ahead and "pick" a line or 2 or 3...hell pick 'em all for all I care....ya'll just JUDGE oneanother!

Well duh...go ahead and cast the first stone....

Judge me as you may, it is of no matter, why?, for I will be JUDGED in the kingdom of heaven...(if there is such a place)...it sure as hell ain't gonna be by YOU!

Yeesh...JUDGEMENTALISM....it's the root problem of ALL organized religion...(remembering that "religion" is a word developed by humans)

You may judge me, but it don't count!
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 50
view profile
History
So are you going to be in heaven?
Posted: 5/9/2006 10:52:43 PM

Jlcrome what concept of Heaven or Paradise are you referring to? What is Heaven like to you? Perhaps then I can make an somewhat intelligent reply to your to your question.

If you are referring to the Bible's account of Heaven would you be so kind as to give a scriptural reference like the book chapter and verse/s. This could be a very good question.

Remember that Jesus was quoted here in the book of Matthew to say that the "kingdom of heaven is at hand" meaning perhaps that it is on earth because of His arrival. Two thousand years is a long time to tell mortals to repent because the "kingdom of is at hand" if it was still to come when Jesus made this statement, don't you think? Surly Jesus must have meant it is really here actually at hand or in the present because of His arrival, right?

Matthew 4:17 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
A Public Domain Bible KJV at Zondervan Zondervan

17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Hmmmmmm....I was scrolling with baited breathe waiting to see what response this would get ~ nothing. Imagine that!!! Nice post ^^^^ not much there to argue with, I guess!!!
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