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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/20/2006 4:16:40 PM | http://www.medieval-life.net/chivalry.htm
"Chivalry is the generic term for the knightly system of the Middle Ages and for virtues and qualities it inspired in its followers. The word evolved from terms such as chevalier (French), caballero (Spanish), and cavaliere (Italian), all meaning a warrior who fought on horseback. The term came to mean so much more during medieval times.
Chivalric orders first appeared with military activities against non-Christian states. During the Middle Ages, Western Europe aggressively sought to expand its area of control. The first orders of chivalry were very similar to the monastic orders of the era. Both sought the sanctification of their members through combat against "infidels" and protection of religious pilgrims, and both had commitments that involved the taking of vows and submitting to a regulation of activities.
13th Century conventions of chivalry directed that men should honor, serve, and do nothing to displease ladies and maidens. Knights were members of the noble class socially as bearers of arms, economically as owners of horse and armor, and officially through religious-oriented ceremony. While some were knighted on the battlefield, most spent long years as a squire, practicing the art of war while serving his master. People during the Middle Ages heard of the exploits of knights both mythical and real in epics like La Chanson de Roland and Le Morte D'Arthur.
After the Crusades, knights continued to show their prowess and skills in medieval tournaments. "
What's so attractive about medieval chivalry? It's about violence and war, which to me has no honor at all nor is it 'manly' and it's stupid. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/20/2006 7:08:25 PM | To czgeek u are spot on, i believe u treat people how u would wish to be treated.
I have allways gone out of my way to help someone if i can, because i think one day i might need some-one to do the same for me.
I like to be as lady like as i can without turning into something from the 19th century, so if a man opens a door for me thank you, but im not averse to doing the same for men themselves, and yes im single and yes im looking for a nice decent man, who is a humanitarium who cares about its people and the world we live in, so if im different im proud to be so julie.  | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/20/2006 7:33:57 PM | tarheelman, I don't *need* to talk to law enforcement, I have been at the thick of this as a volunteer for well over twenty years- a volunteer for MEN, single fathers, and children who are abused.
The stat given by women's groups that men do the abusing 95% of the time is FALSE. 85% of the time the domestic violence is MUTUAL and usually from drug/alcohol addiction that is ALSO mutual. The remaining as to whether one is the victim pure and simple remains 50/50. In other words, the same *type* of man *also* goes running after the mean women. This is *NOT* a gender issue. PEOPLE of BOTH genders who have no other comfort zone except abuse or who view abuse as evidence of love are BOTH men and women to an equal percentage and it has been postulated that men being abused is SEVERELY UNDER REPORTED. This comes from old research that came up with basically, the last one down, 95% of the time, was a woman. In *newer* studies, Lesbian relationships have more domestic violence than hetero, and hetero have more domestic violence than gay. This doesn't make sense except that men don't tell when they are abused and women run screaming down the street at the first sight of it.
Women who go back to truly abusive situations (where they are the victims and not mutual)frequently have NO OTHER place to go. Women who leave that situation, may be dead the next day. That is a true stat, that when the man does do the abusing, he is more likely to kill than a woman is-hence they do take the possibility more seriously and they blame the man first. Women who go back to a mutually abusive relationship, well, they aren't seekign the jerk as much as they are seeking the MUTUAL violence. As a *nice* guy, do you want this violent woman loose in your home?
As far as who goes to jail, that is a societal issue stirred up by that false stat of so many years ago. Virtually *every* public service program for abused women is built around that stat and REMAINS to this day built around that stat. New studies are also built off that singular stat which was reported in such a way to suit men-hating women's groups. EVEN if the MAN was abused, he gets to be the one hauled off to jail and suffers. IF there is one thing cops will compalin about the most its how they constantly are told to take the male victim and not the female assailant who will ADMIT to hitting him. Friends are cops, I've heard this gripe for many years. The woman who goes back to the "jerk" gets attention and everyone cries for her but she isn't really in any danger and she really knows it.
I still get pissed off when visiting a docs office and handed one of those surveys to see if I'm being abused in the home-it's insulting. When I ask if they give these out to men, they ALWAYS say no. As if men don't get abused. WHAT English speaking woman is so ignorant in this day and age that she doesn't know to make the call?
Moreover, you are painting wide swaths of generalizations upon women because this noisy trailer trash group that keeps the neighbors up at night seems like *all* women. Just because these bottle blondes obviously have strings of bad love affairs and violence follows them, doesn't mean the MILLIONS more of women behave the same. This kind of woman is a player, she hurts many many men in her lifetime, so it seems like there are a lot of them.
The men she hurts, tend to get repeatedly used by the same kind of woman BECAUSE THAT IS WHO HE FALLS FOR. He wants to rescue, wants to be a hero, so he doesn't seek out independent women, he seeks out women who *need* him. It's a no brainer that he'll be used and watch her go back to a jerk-but keep in mind, the only reason he *knows* that guy is a jerk and not another nice guy being used, is from the information she desseminated to him. This is a neurotic need on his part and the problem will continue untill he runs out of that specific kind of woman to rescue or he gets thereapy, and maybe he just likes getting abused, or the dram of it all because when he wants to blame women in general for why he can't maintain a relationship, picking one of these beauties gives him the perfect excuse and *he* gets attention for having been used by her. Oh, the poor nice guy.
If you think about it, this constant claiming that the this type of women *only* goes for the jerks, in what spare time does she spend with the nice guy whom she supposedly leaves for the jerk? If she *only* goes for jerks, doesn't that make the nice guy a jerk by association?
Look in a better trailer park.
Gini | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/20/2006 7:40:20 PM | | Most of what you stated is true^^I will not deny...But what does Look in a better trailor park mean...Do you mean look in some greener pasture...If so i agree....... | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/20/2006 7:55:08 PM | It means to become picky, a woman who chronically cries "I'm hurt, I'm bleeding, someone come rescue me," is a woman who is ultimately going to point the finger at you for having hurt her. I've been assaulted, three times, out of the blue over the course of thirty years. I was NOT the last one down in any case. Even when I was nearly kidnapped on Halloween at four years old, honey, I knew the power to protect myself was in my hands. Women have a very strong need to survive, while some don't have the skills, at the very least the caveman brain orders them to RUN, and it's impossible to ignore. I've found myself in an abusive situation when mental illness took everyone by surprise and there weren't the resources there are today, I walked out and never looked back. I've been rooffied and nearly raped that time and so, I act even MORE responsibilly than before, because my safety is MY responsibility, I don't wait for a man to rescue me. If you leave a TV in the yard and it's gone in the morning the thef might be wrong, but don't act so surprised. Women KNOW when their behavior invites trouble. If you chance a woman whose behavior is risque, you get what you pay for-the blame. If a woman can't be accountable, walk away, she's trouble and a user and weak, what you want with her for anyway?
As a woman, I swear to you, it's a tiny percentage who actually prefer abuse. They just scream a lot to get noticed.
Gini | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/20/2006 9:35:53 PM | | not dead and gone and very much appreciated by the "ladies" of this world. Check out the post on chivalry in RELATIONSHIPS. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 2:10:13 AM | This was an interesting thread to read. To answer the main question here, I would have to agree with gin that it really is based on how you were raised. I was raised mostly by my mother to treat girls with respect. Unfortunately for me, I had to learn the hard way that some girls don't deserve respect because they don't show anybody else any. Also, some guys uphold chivalry because any guy that knows anything about dating knows that making first impressions like that with a girl, also known as the little things, are what counts. It's what makes a girl feel really special and important when you do these little chivalrous acts.
Unfortunately, most of us guys do not see the need to anymore as we see how independent most women have gotten and how some do not like this kind of treatment because it comes off as us guys belittling them, so most of us guys don't even bother anymore. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 7:22:01 AM | what a list of charges you have here!!! as i look at them you would think this guy is a murderer. he has 3 differant dates and the courts always go over board .
what ever this man did or didnt do its what you do that matters. im sure your aware of the saying ( when one finger is pointing out there are three pointing in.)!!!!!
if he pissed you off or if you are a list maker is up to you. can i please have your
last name
first name
middle name
,date of birth,
ssn,
and all other stats on you so we can check your closet.
im sure you wont mind after all you threw the first stone.
to all that read this please remember.....3 sides to every story her side, his side, the truth. i do not know the man she is stoning but whatever he has done belongs with the courts not pof.
shame on you!!!!
i hope you can put your info on here so someone can slander you!!!!
i hope you have a great day and may the wind blow bullshit your way.
not every one elses thank you. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 7:34:39 AM | by the way i was refering to the list regarding TALLDARKNLIAR post.
as far as the behavior of people if you dont like how you are treated then move on its up to you to direct your path to happiness, my saying is be good or be gone, simple....... | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 8:50:06 AM | Eagle, given that you are right in between the ages of my daughter and son, I'll tell from what I've seen of girls in your age group-the overwhelming majority have been TAUGHT that chivalric acts are belittling. They are responding to what they have been taught. No matter how independent they are, however, the cavewoman brain is going to respond in a positive and sexual manner to having their door opened for them. The women who TAUGHT MY GENERATION that gentlemanly behavior is disrepectful of an independent women, are the same women who respond in the *same* manner, physically, but the physical response made them mad. They were in full man hate mode and they didn't like having their female equivalent of the *little brain* making decisions for them. So my generation continued to spread the word that a gentleman was someone to be wary of so we dated who THE JERKS, because that was what was left, wasn't it?
Don't give up. Educate. Explain to the young woman that you are opening the door as a sign of respect, not as a way of claiming she's helpless, afterall, she obviously isn't and you are not Obviousman to try to prove to the word you have bigger arms than she. Anything you do that is respectful, ask why she doesn't like it, get involved in a conversation about it, tell her this is who you are and you need her *respect* by taking you as is and seeing that you mean this behavior in a good way. When a woman is served (door opened, for example) and she quiets all the demonic voices in her head that scream "he's just trying to get into your pants! He's evil! They all lie! He wants to prove you're helpless!" there is that momentary endorphin at the pleasure center, oh, for a moment there, I'm wonderful, he's at my feet, it literally *is* his pleasure to open the door for little ol' me, look at that smile on his face, oh gosh, I'm smiling too....
Gini | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 9:14:34 AM | | Im of the old fashion arena, where women walk 3 paces behind the men, and in the case of door opening, she needs to recognized who her "KING" is, and I expect her to run forward to open the door for me. This shows a sign of great respect for her future father of her children, and breadwinner, that will provide the substinance for her daily living. Without the strength of man to till the ground, there wouldnt be enough food to sustain the weaker sex woman. I find it very attractive for a woman who submits to her man, receives gentleness in like manner. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 12:36:56 PM | | Yeah, I have noticed that if a girl really does like a guy, then she will be more inclined to let him perform these little chivalrous acts as opposed to guys that she doesn't like. Just a little subtle tip here for other guys who are wondering what signs a girl will show if she really is interested in you or not. | |
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czgeek
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Joined: 5/19/2006
Msg: 40 | |
| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 1:44:20 PM |
I do not know where you live,But here in Florida it is normal for a woman to have 3 kids but no man in the house....About 8 out of 10 are doing it without a man in the house...
Thank you Gini, love youre comments, but as to the above from the "heel man", uh, what is wrong with a single woman with 3 kids? Ok, I've never dated one w/ 3 kids, but I've dated a couple with 2 kids each, and they were *wonderful* mothers, and very independant, never *asked* me for anything (although of course, I would offer, and they would sometimes accept, sometimes not, their choice).
I dunno, maybe the "heel" was hurt by one of them. Heck, maybe one of them is his ex-wife or something. I personally believe that generalizations, "all men" or "all women" are silly. And yes, I know a couple of women who have dated a string of "jerks", I befriended one for a while, but the continuous "drama" was just way too much for me, I don't need that in my life, and I backed away. I certainly am not here to "save" anyone from themselves.
of course, on your comment, that voice in the womans head with "he's just trying to get into your pants! He's evil! They all lie! He wants to prove you're helpless!" -- haha, got a good laugh out of that, but could be true in *some* cases. :-) But, watch how someone acts... Yes, I hold the door for cute women ;-) .. I also hold the door for old ladies, old men, women with children and their husband in tow, little kids who can barely manage to open the door, and heck, just about anybody if they're behind me (or on their way in while I'm going out). I'm not so sure its "chivalry" so much as common courtesy, just like saying "thanks" when I've had the door held for me. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/21/2006 2:55:27 PM | I happen to have the three kids, and true, I never asked for nuttin-including had to fight to not be given something. My husband's mental illness spiraled out of control, I was suckered by my FiL and I took my two and pregnant me to safety waiting for my FiL to get help for my husband. Instead, he took up that power of attorney, made millions on the ranch I had spent tens years of back breaking work on and left his son to rot in a jail somewhere. He's wandered homeless ever since, reportedly hooked on crack. What a tale-and not half as outrageous as some of the tales I've worked with over the years. Woo hoo, everyone gets their little red wagon to pull that was mine and I pull it fine on my own.
Considering the trouble our mental health treatment in the USA is, considering the NUMBER of people who suffer neurosis at least periodically, considering that divorce is often a result of dysfunction caused by *some* mental illness from some source (maybe just the MiL), it's not a terrible stretch to notice that the majority of those single *and* in chronic drama have some kind of mental illness if nothing more than a need to have it around them.
So there's the single woman with the three kids, so what? who MADE them with her? There's the guy I know with SEVEN kids, none at home. There's the two brothers in prison I know who have a collection of *approximately* seventeen kids, that they know of, all on welfare. It may be more obvious in that the courts usually award custody to a female, she's got to show up in court with a needle marks in her neck to lose it, and even then, if she's got something on the judge (true story!) she gets to keep custody. I do have issues with women with kids from several fathers, or who repeatedly drag their kids through the dating/SO/blended family process. WTF???
As I said, this is *not* a gender issue, this is a mental health issue. If you keep getting stuck with this kind of woman over and over, ask what kind of man YOU are. If you just *see* it a lot, MOVE!
Furthermore, acts of chivalry/courtesy do not make the man, nor prove he's a nice guy. Players act chivalrous, and jerks get the girls because they FOOL the girls because they are GOOD at it, and they use chivalry as tool for the fooling. However, just as I hold women to this higher standard of behavior than women's groups seem to, I hold men to the higher standard-learn how to be a gentleman AND JUST DO IT. Suck it up, courtesy is a good thing even if it takes effort or you get slammed for it by some ignorant woman who thinks being a man-hating see you in tea proves she is independent. I have sons, I adopted a daughter who showed up at more door as a man-hater. She got re-educated and the boys open doors but don't put up with hatefulness.
I just hijacked this thread because I'm a little sick of the whole "women only want jerks" BS that *always* comes up on every thread about gentlemanly behavior. It's a self-perpetuating myth that needs to die. Let's stop complaining about what we see and start educating children BY EXAMPLE of what abuse is, do not stand for it, and what courtesy is, and to ALWAYS stand for that.
Gini | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/26/2006 1:46:59 AM | | Thanks for all the responses. I think a lot of the opinions expressed here nicely capture some of my frustration about being chivalrous in the 2000s. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 45 | |
| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/26/2006 2:15:12 AM | Classy
The best thing to do is just be yourself
If that includes being Chivalrous well and good
It is not something you need to train for, or worry about
Simple things like opening doors should just come naturally
If things like that are done continually even the most jaded and sceptical of women
will grow to appreciate it
To act Chivalrous merely to get a good response is NOT Chivalrous
To do it because it is the right thing to do IS Chivalrous
..
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 5/26/2006 2:44:42 AM | | Gent, Every guy will say he's Chiv...it's what women want to hear. I am so too, but only up to a point,...let me explain...when it comes to profanity, I'd say men & women these days are pretty much equal...there's only one word I refuse to use - GD - & I'm getting where I use the F-bomb rarely. Which is not to say that I go around using profanity constantly,...point of fact is, I don't...,but niether do I go around apologizing for every little thing I say, either! I work in an office full of women(I'm the ONLY guy, literally!), & when I get pissed, I use words...not at them, but at the situtation. They understand...because they are under the same pressure..., but this very same guy holds doors open, too! For a guy to watch his language around women in that kind of situation is unrealistic. Language as a chivalric instrument is pretty much gone...I wish I didn't use it, but there are so much more serious things to worry about than a woman getting her panties in a wad about damn, shit, or f--k. If cursing around women bothers you...that's great, ...because it shows you're aware of what you say...I'm NOT saying that I'm not...I'm just saying that I don't take not cursing to an extreme. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 6/13/2006 7:01:32 PM | God ..I hope not........or I will be on this site forever................... | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 6/13/2006 7:36:00 PM | It's not dead. It's just hard to find. I certainly don't blame men for that. Women have sort of dug a hole for ourselves, I fear. No need to get into the specifics, but I think men would like to treat ladies like ladies, however, it is constantly beat into them that "we are your equal" so who's to know when it's appropriate to be more "old fashioned" ??? Some women don't like the doors opened, they do the initial calling, they initiate emailing first, etc. Somewhere ~ the roles just got intertwined and it's iffy to know who wants chivalry and who prefers a more "equality" approach. I want the chivalry, and in return ~ I'll be the same. I do NOT email first, I do not call unless there is a pre-arrangement that I plan on calling, etc. I think that he'll call when he has time ~ I don't wait around, but I'm not going to get into a role reversal. It just makes things weird and complicated later. (Maybe this is why I haven't been on a date in over two years!! LMAO)   | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 6/13/2006 9:04:02 PM | I look at it this way, Chivalry is as alive as you want it to be baby (bad Austin Powers impression).
Anyways, I don't want to sound wishy washy but im as chilvarous as a woman would like me to be. I know theres some women that like it and some who don't and I give accordingly. | |
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| Is chivalry dead and gone?
Posted: 9/1/2006 7:55:07 PM | I live in the boonies, and maybe things are still a bit different here.
I just came from Hamilton, and was at a gas station. There were two women in their
thirties heading for the building, and about ten or fifteen feet away. I held the door
open and waited for them to enter first.
They both looked quite astonished. Like I was from another planet or something.
But I must say, they appeared quite pleased  | |
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