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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 rks58
Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 51
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?Page 3 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Your riddle is simple. Besides the fact that Iran and North Korea have very little association with the Wahhabi sect, they also did not have enforceable UN resolutions against them, making invasions of those countries "illegal."

The Wahhabi continue to promise more, and someday they will deliver.


I do agree that the Wahhabi branch of Islam are the largest financial supporters of terrorism (even over Iran) and represent as much of a threat to freedom in the US as the Bush gov't's illegal acts.

What I don't understand is why would you invade Iraq to eliminate that threat since Wahhabism has its' dominant power base in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. If the Wahhabi are threatening more terrorism shouldn't the US be invading Saudi Arabia and Qatar instead?
I think that would do just as much to end terrorism as invading Iraq.

I am also confused about the UN sanction rationale for invading Iraq. Israel has ignored far more UN resolutions over the Palestinian issue than Iraq did. By that rationale shouldn't the US be invading Israel and restoring the original UN partition plan? It seems to me that giving the Palestinians back their part of the middle east would make the majority of Islam happy and prevent just as many terrorist attacks. I think that would do just as much to end terrorism as invading Iraq.


It seems to me that giving up so many freedoms to protect the country from terrorism isn't the best way of fighting it when so many other causes of terrorism are being left untouched.
 MUSICMAYKER
Joined: 4/4/2006
Msg: 52
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 7:02:23 PM
......I am also confused about the UN sanction rationale for invading Iraq. Israel has ignored far more UN resolutions over the Palestinian issue than Iraq did.

I say "BULLY"[to use a term used by FDR] for Isreal my friend!! IMO the Palestinians' never wanted what they were awarded as "their land", they want the whole of Isreal and will never be happy unless they achieve said!! Furthermore...Isreal isn't trying to start world war three!!, The Arab/Muslims sure are giving it their best effort!! When has Isreal ever bombed our Marine barricks or blown a whole in the side of US Naval vessel!! Have they ever flown planes into our Buildings or gased thousands of their on people? Why are you so anti-Isreal?? They are on our side man!! FAITH/HOPE/LOVE~DOC~
 rks58
Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 53
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 7:30:04 PM

Why are you so anti-Isreal?? They are on our side man!!


I'm not anti-Israeli though I do think they haven't lived up to their part in solving the problems there.

What I am is anti-"take away domestic freedoms to support an illegal war started for made-up reasons when the biggest supporter of terrorism is Saudi Arabia who is treated as a friend".

All I was pointing out with Israel was the reason of UN sanction violations is a double-edged sword. I was also pointing out that taking a lead role as an intermediary in the Israel-Palestine issue would do more to gain support in the middle east than invading Iraq. The US would most likely be better perceived in the middle east making it less likely to be a target for terrorism. This would take away much of the "rationale" for violations of domestic freedoms.

Perhaps the true cost of freedom is to pick and choose friends more carefully and take more of a "tough-love" approach with those we do call friends.

But hey, that sure was a nice job of selectively quoting to take the comment out of context. You're pretty good at that whether you realize it or not.
 cougar99
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 54
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 7:49:13 PM

I say "BULLY"[to use a term used by FDR]


Actually that term was coined by Theodore Roosevelt
 gottalight
Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 55
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 7:56:28 PM
As usual rks, you elevate the discussion.




What I don't understand is why would you invade Iraq to eliminate that threat since Wahhabism has its' dominant power base in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. If the Wahhabi are threatening more terrorism shouldn't the US be invading Saudi Arabia and Qatar instead?
I think that would do just as much to end terrorism as invading Iraq.



Saudi, Israel, and Quatar are distinguished allies. You don't invade your allies countries, you negotiate. Iraq was a rogue state with Sunni's as the primary power base. The Sunni are allied with the Wahhabi. You may wish to research this to your own satisfaction.


I am also confused about the UN sanction rationale for invading Iraq. Israel has ignored far more UN resolutions over the Palestinian issue than Iraq did. By that rationale shouldn't the US be invading Israel and restoring the original UN partition plan? It seems to me that giving the Palestinians back their part of the middle east would make the majority of Islam happy and prevent just as many terrorist attacks. I think that would do just as much to end terrorism as invading Iraq.




We have tried to negotiate a Palestinian peace agreement for many years. It seems that the original borders accomodated too much terrorist access to Israel, and the Palestinians have not only failed to reject the tactic of terrorism, but embrace it as a means to recover the entirety of Isreal. Nevermind that they were nomadic camel herders when the first Jews arrived, and that even more were migrant workers who showed up to work for the new Jewish landowners who purchased the land from the Turks: They somehow developed a great affinity for the land known as Isreal, and felt slighted when they were tossed out during the Arab attempt to overthrow Isreal in 67. It is true that some of those tossed out actually owned land, but it has been there own insistance on continuing the 67 war, which actually lasted six days, which has made their bed. They don't want the old borders. They want Israel. Again, research this to your own satisfaction. I apologize in advance for any errors or ommissions.
 Mistchf
Joined: 9/12/2005
Msg: 56
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 7:57:43 PM
Americans? The cost of Freedom? WHAT Freedom? Take a look at America. Let's see, our Freedom and Rights...there's no such thing as rights to jury trial anymore. The courts are so clogged up that the only rights someone has is what their public pretender says (in order to collect their paycheck). Which means so many people plead guilty of something they didn't even do.
Oh wait..we have a government in place right? That's part of our freedom right? Oh yeah, the government employees abuse the people and the "government" in place is supposed to "check" their actions. Instead of "checking" their actions the government in place is doing nothing but trying to figure out how to cover up the abuses of the employees under them. Please...what FREEDOM?
I attended a town hall meeting a couple of months ago. A woman and her husband were concerned about the port issue. Their son was fighting in Iraq, or Iran or wherever. Their son was FIGHTING and may possibly have died for OUR FREEDOMS. Tears ran down my face as they spoke. I was there because a child who THEIR son was dying for, had been abused by government employees. Please...there is no Freedom in America...There is no Justice...there is a bunch of politicians and their subordinates who get lots of money. That's it...wake up people...it's so damn obvious. There is no Freedom to fight for, there is no Justice in place...unless you have a lot of money. So quit sending your kids out to die.
 rks58
Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 57
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 8:32:46 PM
Saudi, Israel, and Quatar are distinguished allies. You don't invade your allies countries, you negotiate. Iraq was a rogue state with Sunni's as the primary power base. The Sunni are allied with the Wahhabi. You may wish to research this to your own satisfaction.


Actually, the Sunni muslims are not allied with the Wahhabi muslims. The Wahhabi muslims are a FUDAMENTALIST sect within Sunni Islam. The Wahhabi sect practices a much more radical form of Islam than the Sunni do. The Wahhabi sect diverged from the Sunni because its' followers felt the Sunni were becoming too 'liberal'.

Maybe YOU should research YOUR facts first before counselling others to do so. Oh, and by the way, it's QATAR not QUATAR

But I do see that you are agreeing with me about how the US should approach terrorism. We should make allies of the terrorists biggest supporters and power base, treat them as friends and negotiate with them.

Certainly this approach more than justifies the gov'ts encroachment on domestic freedoms since we will be welcoming the biggest supporters of terrorism into our homes.

If I had guests like that in my home I would want to keep a close eye on everybody in the house too since I wouldn't know which of my friends were actually against me.

I never realized that true the price of freedom was to give up those freedoms in order to lie down with those who would wish to take that freedom.

I am very grateful to you for enlightening me on this point.
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 58
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 8:41:44 PM
IMO the Palestinians' never wanted what they were awarded as "their land", they want the whole of Isreal and will never be happy unless they achieve said!! Furthermore...Isreal isn't trying to start world war three!!, The Arab/Muslims sure are giving it their best effort!!

I agree Musicmayker, there have been opportunities in the past for peace. But Arafat had other ideas.

Israel has the right to exist, but if the Muslim world can't accept that little fact, there will not be peace. Israel has certainly not forgotten the cost of freedom. There are lessons we could learn from their Mossad on how to deal with terrorists...in my humble opinion, of course.

Toon
 michaelvanwriter
Joined: 6/6/2005
Msg: 59
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 8:48:57 PM
On the plus side, the Israeli walls have reduced terrorist attacks in those areas by over 90%.

I haven't done a whole lot of research in the area of wiretapping, etc. during WW2. But, am I safe to say that I probably couldn't call my cousin Gunter in the SS in 1944 without it being intercepted by the authorities?
 toonsmith
Joined: 1/19/2005
Msg: 60
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 8:56:01 PM
If a wall is what it takes, then so be it. I haven't heard of the 90 percent, but if true, that is excellent. Anything to prevent suicide bombers killing innocent civilians in shopping malls works for me. If separation reduces the cost...again, so be it.

Toon
 gottalight
Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 61
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 9:37:43 PM

Maybe YOU should research YOUR facts first before counselling others to do so. Oh, and by the way, it's QATAR not QUATAR


Your retentive observations on spelling and the similarities and differences between the sects are noted. The Wahhabi use the main body of the Sunni to convert followers, and evidently you can't say Wahhabi without including Sunni, since one diverges from the other. Hence my more basic illustration.

Your feigned ignorance at the outset left my limited knowledge and recall skills at a disadvantage to say the least. Your intentional ignorance of the diplomatic perspective and linking it somehow to the surveillance issue and grotesque distortions of policy leaves me with a distinct feeling that you have an ax to grind and don't actually have anything meaningful to add. You ignored the last paragraph of my post, which actually recognized the fact that my recall might be flawed with respect to retentive details: "I apologize in advance for any errors or ommissions."

With that, good day. I think the last few posters have a better idea of what its about regarding Isreal, surveillance, and nutcase extremists. Perhaps they can explain the diplomacy to you, and why we never invaded Isreal.
 michaelvanwriter
Joined: 6/6/2005
Msg: 62
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 9:44:02 PM
To heck with them all. We wouldn't have this problem if we just converted them all to Christianity anyway.
 gottalight
Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 63
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 9:47:40 PM

There are lessons we could learn from their Mossad on how to deal with terrorists...in my humble opinion, of course.



I think wiretapping is one of those lessons, but I doubt that anybody in Israel is raising a fuss.
 michaelvanwriter
Joined: 6/6/2005
Msg: 64
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/29/2006 9:51:46 PM
Yes, because the Israelis recognize the existential nature of the threat from Islamists. North Americans haven't quite got their heads around that one just yet because it flies in the face of multicultural fell-good thinking.
 Dreadmuse
Joined: 10/18/2005
Msg: 65
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/30/2006 5:43:43 AM
Interesting thread... I love the arguments on both sides. However, I will point out the flaw in most arguements that are anti-bush, anti-liberal, anti-US, anti- (choose your pet-peeve here)...

Do you really think the US is any more or less corrupt than other governments? Do you think that there is something in the water that makes American polititians any more willing to look after thier own best interests? Look at the scandles in the UN lately? Do you ever wonder why there is rarely an 'across the board' condemnation of an action in the UN? Because, it is politics. To put it simply, you, me, your children, my children, mean nothing to them. Do you really think that China has the US's best interests at heart? Do you really think that there is not a power struggle in every country? With that power struggle, comes odd allies. In the global arena, these allies may lead countries to make powerful enemies later on. But, often goals are looked at in short term basis, because the people that put those governments in power (through vote, or lack of insurgency) care only about what effects them and their lives.

There are problems in every country. Countries like France are economically strangled by powerful unions, several countries are ripped apart because of a change in power base. Politics (especially global) have no common moral grounds. It all depends on the benefits of aiding or not aiding.

As individuals, if we saw a neighbor beating thier child with an iron rod, we would step in. We would not care if someone thought we should look out for other kids. We WOULD intervene. Because on an individual level, most people have morals. On a global level, morals are forgotten, or are just too impractical. Everyone in the UN can beat their chest about Iraq gassing Kurds.. but no one stepped in. Why? Why would the world not want to kick someones ass for that? Why, because... oil, power base, economic deals... they override the morality when it came to doing something about something that was obviously wrong. Why does the US not go against China? Economic power.

The arguements about freedom is bogus. People site the wire tapping as a sign that we are a less-free society. Get over it... Do you think they JUST developed the capabilities to do it? Do you think that all this technology required for the databases and the active survailence JUST got developed? Nope... it has been there... only now we know about it. This way, they can actually use it legally. Big Brother has always been there. ALL governments watch over thier population. It is the nature of the beast. Global politics and personal morals are not compatable in this time. It is a shame, but it is the truth.

When our Fore-Fathers founded this country, global politics were primitive at best. They never imagined a day where airplanes could be used as weapons, bombs that would decimate cities, and the ability to affect other countries within hours. It is a different world, the comparison is impossible to make.

Just some rambling thoughts.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 66
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/30/2006 6:51:41 AM
perhaps,...but only the USA,...has the chutpah to act in another country based on what it thinks should take place there,...

Currently in the States there are a lot of boundary issues,....well here's the thing,..

Before you can get your noses collectively bent out of shape too far,...for people crossing your borders,...you might want to try and respect other peoples borders, first...


Just a thought,...

and at least the people who breach your borders aren't wearing a military uniform when they're doing it,...that must count for something,...

So yes politics and corruption seem to go hand in hand everywhere,...the only variable,..that makes it slightly less is most countries,..keep it in their own country,...(not all,..but most)
 Dreadmuse
Joined: 10/18/2005
Msg: 67
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/30/2006 8:24:52 AM

perhaps,...but only the USA,...has the chutpah to act in another country based on what it thinks should take place there,...


Not really... other than being more blatant about it, by the use of military... lets take a look at things...

When a country is under sanctions... what happens? They are barred from trade of certain goods. Why are contries sanctioned against? Becaused they have pissed off someone else. While the military may not be involved (but often is to make sure that smuggling does not take place). This is a way of strong-arming a country into submission.... Think of it a siege.. supplies are cut off until the castle (in this case a country) decides to submit. In the meantime... you often have insited unrest, within that countries boundries, that result in unfavorable conditions for many innocent people.

Military power is only one type of force... Economic force is something that every country uses.. Drain economies, stress the infrastructure... the argument about boarders would seem very different than military action... but lets put it into Economic force. The infrastructure is stressed, there is a large percentage of population that can evaportate quickly, and part of the economy is sent to anouther country (most workers do send money back home) weakening our economy further, and strengthening another. The US (and other countries) engaged in similar activities before... usually to fund insurgency against another, unfriendly, country.

Often in global political arena... "plausible deniability" takes on a whole new meaning..
They can benefit without taking direct action against another country. This allows countries to fence ride and allow others to do the dirty work that they may not want to do. Or worse... create a way to bypass sanctions or encourage military engagement. Think of how many countries (including the US) that have sold weapons to regimes, knowing full well that they were being used against innocent people. How many side deals were cut to make sure that money went in and out of a country under sanctions...

I think the problem is.. most people are far too attached to realize that when people say "you americans"... it is such a generalization... kind of like saying all middle easterns are terrorists... all French people are rude... Brits can't cook ... (ok.. the later may be true)... I think it creates a vicious backlash of responce... Kind of like getting blamed for something you don't control.. Guilt by association...

(bleh... back to work...)
 txguy62
Joined: 5/3/2006
Msg: 68
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/30/2006 7:50:10 PM
[qoute]On a global level, morals are forgotten, or are just too impractical.[/qoute]


I have stared at these words for 30 minutes, searching, thinking, trying to rebut it.
Nothing noble, no higher cause, just practicle.

Thats friggin depressing, and regretfully accurate.
I need a drink,....
 gottalight
Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 69
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/31/2006 1:35:44 AM
I need a drink,....


I pondered the same once. Global morality is enforced by Global Justice. Justice does not ahere to moral standards. The eye is removed for the loss of an eye. If it wasn't moral to take out the first eye, then why the second? That's just how Justice works. It doesn't have to adhere to the moral standard it enforces. Some do argue the effects and the level of effectiveness, but it is the way it has always been, save for some methods which have been declared cruel and unusual on a less Global level. Bombs are typically used to attack military targets in the Global morality concept. The morality of this use is actually what is opposed by a significant part of the left. The terrorists seem to have grabbed this concept, and call bombing innocent people their Justice for the first act. That is a move backwards from what the leftist advocates propose, but conceivably can be declared "Justice" if you accept that Justice does not necessarily have to adhere to normal moral standards. Justice must be pondered with respect to morality.

The above paragraph intrinsically asks you to make your own Judgement of what Justice in the case is. I have made my decision, and lean to the right. The selection of targets IS the primary element of Global Justice. Terrorism is a crime. I'll still have that drink, thank you.
 gottalight
Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 70
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/31/2006 1:58:43 AM

The arguements about freedom is bogus. People site the wire tapping as a sign that we are a less-free society. Get over it... Do you think they JUST developed the capabilities to do it? Do you think that all this technology required for the databases and the active survailence JUST got developed? Nope... it has been there... only now we know about it.


While researching court desisions on wiretapping, I noticed some law or proposal about tapping the phones of sexual predators. I think it's already been made into law, but you might want to confirm this with your own research. I just skimmed it breifly. I am pretty sure that they have already made it legal for racketeering, and almost anything that two consentual adults can agree to can be declared racketeering by some moderate obfuscation of terms.
 Dreadmuse
Joined: 10/18/2005
Msg: 71
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/31/2006 1:07:12 PM

[qoute]On a global level, morals are forgotten, or are just too impractical.[/qoute]


I have stared at these words for 30 minutes, searching, thinking, trying to rebut it.
Nothing noble, no higher cause, just practicle.

Thats friggin depressing, and regretfully accurate.
I need a drink,....




Don't get me wrong, I do wish it were not this way... but there are too many 'morals' in the world. You can't have a global moral, without destroying others... something that no one would want to happen to 'them'. In the absense of a global norm... they go for what furthers thier own 'morals' or influences others to adhere to thier 'morals'.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 72
view profile
History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/31/2006 1:24:58 PM
the problem with a global anything,...is you need a consencus,..(and I don't see that happening anytime soon,...or even in my lifetime),..and then there's the problem of who's choice is even on the table to build a consencus from and why,...

so we are left with individual morality (personal as well as national) and all the varriances,....

There is no winning,....there are only differences,...and sometimes angry people prepared to fight for their particular choice,.....

What never ceases to boggle my mind,... is why someone elses beliefs,...and moral choices,...affect mine? as long as they don't force me into theirs,.....

Personally I think the best part of the beauty in the world,....is the variety,....

and I can observe,..and appreciate things without adopting them as mine,....
Don't we travel arround the world to see something different?,..
to experience something new?

and when you return home,...do you change your life because of it? I don't,...

We don't all have to be Americans,..or Canadians,...or whatever,... to live life well,....do we?

 The_Gimp
Joined: 10/22/2005
Msg: 73
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/31/2006 3:08:45 PM
What makes you think the price of freedom is we have to go out kill people? I'll grant you in many cases it is. But much of the cost of freedom is people being vigilant towards those in power, especially Bush. The price of freedom to me is people reading and being informed on what's going on and going out and voting on election to keep the politicians in line. The threat to freedom can come from within just as it can from a foreign power.

Let me tell you about Bush for example and what he thinks of freedom of sppech. If you had gone to one his rallys during his last run for office and wore a John Kerry pin The Secret Service would have grabbed and questioned you and thrown you out as a threat. And let's not forget about unauthorized wiretaps and torture. According Watergate's John Dean he's worse than Nixon in terms of paranoia and wanting secrecy and control. I think Bush and alot other politicians in Washington are more of threat to freedom than Saddam ever was.
 marcosagostos
Joined: 6/4/2006
Msg: 74
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 6/8/2006 8:27:37 PM
Just a thought...has anyone here seen the loose change series on google video? It's a good watch for an hour and a half.

While not every theory is rock solid, it does offer up some good points and lends some perspective on this issue.

So when you ask the question, "Have we, as Americans, forgotton the price of freedom?" I say an astounding "yes".

Now, some background, I am a former U.S. Army medic (91B). That is slightly important when considering what I am about to say (in regards to the military).

When we send the troops over to Iraq and claim that it is in the name of freedom, that is a lie. Noone in Iraq is threatening my freedom. Noone. Sadaam was not coming to the walmart to murder the 82 yr old welcome lady. It is absolutely disrespectful and downright gutless to tell our soldiers that they are dying for our "freedom" and "democracy".

I wouldn't lay my life on the line for democracy. Democracy is not what our forefathers desired, but I won't get into that here and now. (The US is a republic, not a democracy)

If you read the writings of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, they would have not stood for the government we have now. So many of our laws are a violation of the constitution. Look at the writings. Examine the constitution and the bill of rights. The president has no right to suspend the constitution. We are allowing this to happen.

So when you ask if we have forgotton. Yeah, absolutely. It's time to remember.

I suggest, for those who care, to watch the loose change video. Also, you can read the writings of Greg Palast, Michael Ruppert and Michael Badnarik. All very, very thought provoking stuff.

And if your arguements really hold water, hold them up to that and see whatcha get.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 75
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 6/8/2006 10:25:09 PM
nothing makes you appreciate more,..than loosing it does,..
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?