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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?      Home login  
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 msquared
Joined: 8/31/2004
Msg: 76
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Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?Page 4 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

When has Isreal ever bombed our Marine barricks or blown a whole in the side of US Naval vessel!!


1967, the USS Liberty.

Not that I think there should be an attack on Israel. Just pointing out that by your logic, the US should have invaded, oh, I don't know, perhaps Italy, for what happened to the Liberty.
 lovableladywanted
Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 77
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 6/9/2006 6:25:06 AM
I never buy politicians rhetoric . They are only public servants no more American than you or I . I see freedom like breathing air. I do not feel I am LUCKY to be free. I see other nations that deny citizens freedom as UNLUCKy. Its like going to an auto mechanic that says he is honest lol. Well honesty should be a given not a favor by the auto mechanic . By the way we are losing freedoms .
 26yearoldguy
Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 78
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 6/9/2006 8:15:05 AM
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/06/06/09/1228233.shtml

Read this and think about what it means about how I think of Republicans right now even though im not americian.

Their taking your ability for freespeech on the internet away and making it so you get taxed on top of having to pay for your netservice. Republicans are great is this the price for freedom that your talking about?
 26yearoldguy
Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 79
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 6/9/2006 9:40:17 AM
My biggest problem with the Bush administration is that they seem to like manipulating the people that are highly religious or have specific values into voting for them.

I mean the whole Terry Schiavo case. That woman was already dead, her body was an empty shell but they jumped on it because they knew they could use peoples ignorance and religious beleifs against them. There have been other cases simalir that were not as popular with the media and you didn't see any of them. This means they just jumped down like vultures at a chance for good publicity.

Also look how Bush is against Gay marriage right now. Yes I know, I know, there are people that think it's wrong and I personally think theres nothing wrong with allowing homosexuals to get married. Marriage didn't start with the catholic church anyways, so there is no damaging of the sancticity of Marriage at all.

Also note how they try to make it sound like Marriage is being attacked. Even if one does not advocate gay marriage really how does it threat normal marriage? Their just against it for good publicity. They know they can use those who are prejiduced towards homosexual unions to gain political favour. I mean whenever their in threat of losing popularity there seems to be some way they try to get people to like them blindly.

I can almost picture what they their trying to manipulate and Americian into thinking. Gee it ended up being true the war is a big mistake and another vietnam maybe they were right about Bush, but Bush is an evangelist and he's against Gay marriage so I have to vote for him anyways.

I don't mean to offend but this is the impression I get. Whether you strongly are for or against Gay marriage can you really say the Bush administration is against it for just purposes or just because they want people to favour them? I see them as being far too manipulative.

If I were Americian I couldn't give him the time of day votewise despite whatever my values are.
 dunrich
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 80
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/8/2006 6:44:13 PM
Mistchf You claim " there is no freedom in America", you claim no " rights to a jury trial anymore".

Funny, back in September I was priviledged to see the American justice system at work first hand. A family member ran into trouble down in New York. They recieved legal council, payed for by the state, even though they were not American.

On arrival, I was treated with the ut most courtesy, by police, DA and the Judge was quite impartial. You have no idea how lucky you are to live in America.

Only in America, Canada, etc, countries with western values so despised by many here, do you have rights to live the way you want, believe what you want and to do what you want!

Maybe Saddams Iraq is to your preference? Common practice under him, was to shoot any dissident, then hand a bill when they delivered the body to the family, for the bullet. This is fact ,not fiction, it happened to a chap I worked with back in the early 90`s.

Maybe you prefer our other enemies freedom? Maybe the Taliban where woman were not allowed to work, speak, go unatteneded in public with out a family male escorting them. Is that your idea of freedom?

Try talking bad about the govt in Iran or North Korea, see what kind of justice system they have!

I am proud of my son, niece, 2 nephews and my nieces husband who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Send them to die? I pray they dont! But they believe in their cause, 1 is back there for the 2nd time right now. The only regret I have is that their sacrifice sometimes means even putting their lives on the line to protect the rights of un gratefull people, such as you. but they do, so you have the freedom to spout drivel, now thats freedom!
 Open_Book
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 81
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/9/2006 8:43:51 AM

Should we in all honesty...just ignore the fact that over 3,000 American People were attacked and killed on our own soil??


Your argument has a serious error. History did not begin on 9/11.

How would the founding fathers have felt about funding/organizing coups, in foreign countries? How would the founding fathers have felt about funding/training insurgents, in foreign countries? How would the founding fathers have felt about a standing army, with posts all over the world? How would the founding fathers have felt about funding dictatorships and occupations, all over the world? How would the founding fathers have felt about a government making decisions, with major corporate and elitist influences?


Terrorism is not going to just magically stop!!


Why not? You appear to allow for terrorism to have magically started, by skipping pre-911 history. Until the US owns up to being part of the problem, it won't stop foreign policies that help ignite terrorism.

From Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people":


Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from our fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.


On 911, US citizens were shocked, because they largely ignore their own government's foreign policy. They believed the "sleeping giant" myth. That allowed the US government to act like it had been attacked, first. Be honest...did they violate America, first, or was it the other way around?


How long would it really be, before "The Other", becomes "Us"??


They are one and the same.


Now tell me straight-up!!...what should the price of our FREEDOM be??


The price of security (easing your fear) should not be freedom!

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either." ~ Benjamin Franklin


Peace
 EngineMan2008
Joined: 6/13/2006
Msg: 82
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/9/2006 1:08:35 PM
A lot of what you talk about was done in the past when America had a very bad Middle Eastern foreign policy, something we are trying to fix. As for having a standing army with posts all over, that was a necessity. Without in the Cold War, the Soviet Union would've overrun Europe. It still is needed to keep North Korea from trying to overrun South Korea.

Although I agree the U.S. did things in the Middle East that these Islamic leaders use as fuel to drive hatred amongst the people, I don't think that is quite the whole to it. These people have an intensive hatred of the U.S. will to bring it down because we support Israel and are a Christian nation, or a non-Islamic one as they see it. They are Islamic fundamentalists. They have also been attacking us long before 9/11. They were attacking us befroe the Gulf War. They just hit their big one with 9/11, and if we aren't careful, they'll hit with an even bigger one again when no one expects it.
 rev0218
Joined: 3/6/2006
Msg: 83
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/9/2006 4:31:40 PM
To equate this little imperilistic adventure by the Bush administration with the fight for freedom is to dishonor all those who HAVE died in our fight for freedom. We have great soldiers who go where they are told to go and do what they are told to do. My disdain for this war has NOTHING to do with them. 3000 of our best have died so this very little man could prove he was a better man than his Father.
 EngineMan2008
Joined: 6/13/2006
Msg: 84
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/9/2006 6:24:07 PM
Absolutely nothing about the Iraq War is imperialistic. If you think that, you need to seriously read up on the real reasons the U.S. went into Iraq.
 rev0218
Joined: 3/6/2006
Msg: 85
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/9/2006 8:47:10 PM
Engine man - Really well why don't you just educate us all? Look up the meaning of the word and tell me how it does not apply to this situation.
 marita_b
Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 86
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/10/2006 10:04:36 AM
you need to seriously read up on the real reasons the U.S. went into Iraq?????


Hard tp read up on something that hasn't been defined yet,.....
especially since the reason's keeps changing from moment to moment,..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

engineman2008,...
A lot of what you talk about was done in the past when America had a very bad Middle Eastern foreign policy, something we are trying to fix. As for having a standing army with posts all over, that was a necessity. Without in the Cold War, the Soviet Union would've overrun Europe. It still is needed to keep North Korea from trying to overrun South Korea.

Although I agree the U.S. did things in the Middle East that these Islamic leaders use as fuel to drive hatred amongst the people, I don't think that is quite the whole to it. These people have an intensive hatred of the U.S. will to bring it down because we support Israel and are a Christian nation, or a non-Islamic one as they see it. They are Islamic fundamentalists. They have also been attacking us long before 9/11. They were attacking us befroe the Gulf War. They just hit their big one with 9/11, and if we aren't careful, they'll hit with an even bigger one again when no one expects it.

How can you or anyone say definitively what someone "would have done"
we can only go by what in fact they did do,...everything else is pure propaganda

and FYI to me,....the US is trying to fix their Eastern policy?? are they????,...
just exactly how are they doing this,...I must have missed it
 Open_Book
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 87
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/10/2006 12:08:22 PM
^^^

They're still giving military aid to Israel, so they can blow the shit out of those around them, and protecting them with Security Council vetoes.
__________

They're still funding and arming the Saudi dictatorship.
__________

They're still giving military aid to the Egyptian dictatorship.
__________

They're still giving military aid to Turkey, to supress Kurds.
__________

They're still funding the Kuwaiti dictatorship.
__________

They dropped sanctions against Pakistan's nuclear armed dictatorship (came to power through military coup, stayed in power with an election deemed unconstitutional by Pakistan's courts) and started providing them military aid. And, they're arming India, as well.
__________

They provided military aid to Uzbekistan's dictatorship.
__________

They created a civil war in Iraq and ignore the ethnic cleansing and voting irregularities under the "stability" of the Kurdish warlords. The Kurds also being the most radical of Iraq's Muslims (giving rise to Ansar al-Islam, which became Al Qaeda in Iraq, still practicing female circumcisions and honor killings, in a number of areas), and continue to act as non-Iraqis.

Iraqi Kurds' Oil Law Poses Problem for Baghdad: http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2006/1109kurds.htm
__________

They handed Afghanistan back to drug dealing warlords and Karzai (mouthpiece of the former monarchy and member of the Pashtun tribe, which counts for 40% of Afghanistan's population and provided the bulk of the Taliban movement).

Afghan tribes: http://media.wiley.com/assets/170/62/0-7645-5483-2_1302.jpg

Afghan election: http://www.ag-afghanistan.de/leadingperprovince.gif

Unocal: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=unocal

In Afghanistan, the Bush administration supported the Taliban to the tune of $125 million in foreign aid, plus another $43 million for enforcing its ostensible ban on poppy production—right up until September 10, 2001. http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/22227/
__________

All that is bound to help..............someone.


Peace
 evermore980
Joined: 11/27/2005
Msg: 88
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/10/2006 9:35:51 PM
Founding fathers must be rolling over in their graves right now. They prob have been for a long time, the U.S. of today is -nothing- like they envisioned or fought for. The problem is people abusing their freedoms in my opinion. Common sense has been abandoned for political correctness, and God only knows where it will stop. If it does at all. The U.S. will fall from within from destructive ideologies if it ever falls.
 kerryokie
Joined: 11/20/2005
Msg: 89
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/11/2006 4:54:47 PM



Although I agree the U.S. did things in the Middle East that these Islamic leaders use as fuel to drive hatred amongst the people, I don't think that is quite the whole to it. These people have an intensive hatred of the U.S. will to bring it down because we support Israel and are a Christian nation, or a non-Islamic one as they see it. They are Islamic fundamentalists. They have also been attacking us long before 9/11. They were attacking us befroe the Gulf War. They just hit their big one with 9/11, and if we aren't careful, they'll hit with an even bigger one again when no one expects it.



I would suggest you Google "Shah of Iran", "Operation Ajax", and "SAVAK". Then ask yourself honestly that, if a foreign power did such things to your ancestors under the flag of 'a Christian nation', how you'd look upon them?


-Kerry O.
 Mr. Ivan
Joined: 3/13/2006
Msg: 90
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/11/2006 11:00:04 PM
Can we stop and think that Iraq never attacked us. Had nothing to do with 9/11. Were probably sad what 3,000 people died on 9/11. Didn't ask for US troops to invade their country. Their freedoms are being trampled on and put on hold because US troops are there opening a Pandora's box.

Our freedoms were never taken away. More people were dying in car acccidents than on 9/11. When's that war starting?
 Pete47
Joined: 1/26/2006
Msg: 91
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/12/2006 12:56:40 AM
Our forefathers secured America with strength. Sometimes it was elimination. Sometimes it was just natural. There is much to discuss about whether an Indian is and American, and when we cross over.

In texas, the republis was secured by Mexicans, they were all Mexicns that rebelled.

What is home? A republican black, or a black Repiblican
 garry1949
Joined: 12/26/2005
Msg: 92
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 11/12/2006 4:41:31 AM
I certainly won't disagree that a response to the perpetrators of the 9/11 disasters was justifiable. The terrorist network at that time was a relatively small group and should have been dealt with as such by specially trained units. Though the attacks were at the U.S. global sympathy at the time was such that many nations would willingly have engaged in their apprehension. The radical Islamist movement would have long been over by now.
 frankster_p
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 93
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 3:32:03 AM
Why so much American love for israel?
They use the usa.
Remember the Liberty.
 RSwindol
Joined: 8/25/2005
Msg: 94
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 4:17:27 AM
and just think what our Fore-Fathers would have done in this situation we find ourselves in the middle of

Good question. What would our founding fathers do in our current situation. Let's reflect back on what they did when their government gave them no voice and raped the economy. They wrote the Declaration of Independence, which in it's text stated:
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

You are correct, my friend. Freedom does have a price. But is anyone here willing to fight the necessary fight to overthrow our new, corrupt Government?

We can talk about terrorism and dictatorship all day. But in doing so we must ask ourselves "Who created these terrorists and dictators?" Who created these evil men who must be exterminated? The short answer...American government. It was our CIA who trained Bin Laden. It was our government who put Saddam into power and gave him weapons. It was our government who alienated allies. And it was our government who refuses to give it's people the voice they deserve.

"People should not fear their government, their government should fear the people."

So to answer your question. When our government gets "too big for it's breeches", as our government has; our founding fathers would have taken measures to overthrow that government, as they did.
 Bellydanza
Joined: 11/25/2007
Msg: 95
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 4:27:59 AM
I haven't forgotten how much Bush's cost of freedom is. 10 billion dollars a month. As an educator, when I think of all that could be done for education with that money, I cringe.
 ErikSFBay
Joined: 8/2/2004
Msg: 96
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 11:04:37 AM
Gee, the British burned the White House in the Battle of 1812.
I don't recall the need by President Madison to crap on the Constitution like George W. Bush.

The World will rejoice when that pitiful monkey leaves the White House.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 97
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 11:05:23 AM
More money spent on public education would just go down the tubes as it does now. The average public school spends 10,000 more per student than any private institution and guess who gets the better education?

If any sector of government begs for privitazation, it's the education system.
 ErikSFBay
Joined: 8/2/2004
Msg: 98
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 11:32:09 AM
the education blurb is kind of off topic...but there is no denying that our teachers are paid less and teach more students than their more successful counterparts in europe.

spending 10 billion a month on foreign wars is not just a dollar sign but an indication of priorities. our children and our future is simply not a priority for this administration. It's difficult to think of a greater threat to our national security.

i hope the O.P. can recall an earlier era when the Red Scare and threat of Mutually Assured Destruction was the excuse to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on missile defense systems that never worked and license to slaughter millions to keep the proverbial dominoes from falling.

the US spends more money on it's military than the next 6 nations combined. and with all the contract work provided by the Halliburton's of the world, we get less for our money.

When the British burned the White House, our founding fathers didn't step on the Constitution, they didn't profiteer off the disaster, they didn't use it as an excuse to ram through a political agenda.

although crime is at an alltime low, i'm more likely to be killed by a streetgang. Or a chinese toothpaste maker, a lax OSHA or FDA, a non-maintained public bridge or highway, criminally negligent maintenance of a railroad switch, bad air quality!

by bringing up 9/11, the O.P. is really using the same old scare tactic. i'm not afraid of terrorists.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 99
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 11:12:22 PM
But the U.S. spends more on just about everything than the next 6 countries combined. So that doesn't make it's military spending anything special. Just goes to show we often don't get a very good return on our expenditures. Actually it's proven over and over the military is only about 9% of our overall spending.



i'm not afraid of terrorists


That's what they are counting on.


 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 100
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History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 9/22/2008 11:20:59 PM
"Not that I think there should be an attack on Israel. "

Did you know the inventor of suicide bombing was an Israeli way back when the Israeli's were first talking the US and UK into stealing the lands from the current residents? Yeppers... on the steps of the embassy.
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