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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:34:30 PM | | I dont disagree with abortion but am not all for it either.I do think in certain situations its maybe for the best tho depending on circumstance or for medical reasons.What i disagree with is people using abortion as a contreception,there are lots widley available and people should by now be educated enough to prevent unwanted pregnancy. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:38:22 PM | MSG 23
A woman's sole right and decision.
And the unborn child - does it have no rights whatsoever?
MSG 25
I don't think that they should be used as a form of contraception,
I do believe in a woman's right to choose whether she becomes a mother or not.
Two of the most intelligent posters (the other was in MSG 14) have now made contradictory statements.
Can either you of you clarify your viewpoint? | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:46:30 PM |
In my honest opinion all the time abortion is legal and it is.,who are any of us to judge anothers choice,unless we are walking in the persons shoes and living their lives.
I do believe that abortion should only be allowed up to 12 or 13 weeks unless there are medical reasons for either the mother or baby which would justify a later one!
I have Copied and pasted what I wrote on the previous abortion thread.That was my opinion then and it is the same now. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 3:01:35 PM | My first thoughts on this thread were (and to an extent still are) it's wrong, full stop. I do not believe in abortion and I am entitled to my opinion. However I know people who have had them, and until you have spent any time with someone who is going through this dilemma you have no right to judge others based on your personal opinion. Whilst I truly believe that life starts at conception and abortion is wrong, I am now more aware of the other side.
Abortion (when done by a sensible female, who does not use it as a form of contraception) is a heart rending choice to have to make., to judge someone as a murderer because of their personal choice is also wrong though. As I have said unless you have personal experience of it or someone who has gone through it you have no right to pass judgment. Apart from the days, weeks and hours spent agonizing over her choice, she also has the aftermath.
Pregnancy/hormones/emotional ties, do not just disappear once you have a termination. The woman concerned is left with emotional fall out. Grief (and yes apparently you can suffer grief even for something you intentionally got rid of) loss, guilt...did she make the right decision, changing her mind and wanting to reverse the decision are all a part of the process.
So whilst I still believe that abortion is wrong, I accept that it is the wrong choice for me. I also accept that for others it may be the only option they feel they have. It is not my place to judge another person for the paths they take in life; after all there but for the grace of god go I. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 3:03:22 PM | Vin Fourstar, I don't feel that my opinion requires cross-questioning to validate it, and I certainly don't answer to you. I have stated my opinion, it stands - regardless of the existence of other, alternate opinions.
This will be the last time I respond to or acknowledge you on these forums, please recall this message as it will doubtless apply on every future occasion that you wish to question me. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 3:14:09 PM | MSG 31
I don't feel that my opinion requires cross-questioning to validate it
No-one has suggested that it did.
Your opinion on having an unborn child killed is entirely valid.
I certainly don't answer to you.
Of course you don't.
it will doubtless apply on every future occasion that you wish to question me.
There are many times when I ask questions to highlight points, rather than extract an answer, and my point is often demonstrated and emphasised when the poster is unable to answer. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 3:39:56 PM | Vin,
Which point would you like me to clarify,
I feel it is every womans right to terminate a pregnancy if she so wishes
, contraception isn't always 100% and there are times when you are caught out, and a unplanned pregnancy can occur, now you may not be in a stable relationship or it could be a one night stand, and you are not emotional or mentally prepared to bring a child into this world, And you don't want to be a single parent, Now in this saying that Pro life will argue for adoption, but if you look at the amount of children already in the foster care system, why bring more unwanted children into a world that can't take care of the ones we have, are these people who are pro life going to step up to the plate on the birth of these children supply everything they need from unconditional love, to educational stimulation, will they be there to witness the first tooth first step, first words, will they be there when they have their first boyfriend/girlfriend, will they there to stop any abuse happening, the answer to these questions is no, children need unconditional love from their parents, not resentment that being forced to carry a child to term is going to bring.
Every?
Yes every womans right, only she can decide what is right for her, she may not be ready to be responsible for bringing a child into this world,, having a baby is a life changing experience, and you never know how much until you have brought this little life home, to put into perspective, when a man isn't ready to be a father he walks away, he isn't left carrying a baby, it isn't his life it changes.
I don't agree with those women who use a termination as a firm of birth control .
there are women out there and I have run into a few who have have had multiple terminations, in these cases I feel very strongly that a termination should no longer be offered, but in saying that I would not like to see another child being brought into this world to be mistreated, unfortunately I cannot think of another option bar sterilization,
Why is partly why I do not believe it is the woman's right to choose.
And what do we do with all these unwanted children? put them in foster care, have them laid out on trolleys 4 shelves deep, because believe it or not it does happen, not in this country thank god, but countries belonging to Eastern Europe,
Before she ends the life of another human being, she should first demonstrate a damn good reason why that life should be ended almost before it has begun.
And if the state were to take control of terminations to make the decision, what would happen there, if a woman is told that she has to carry on with an unwanted pregnancy, back street abortions?
Your mother is the closest human being, and if SHE won't stand up for you, then the state should.
Why, once again what do we do with all these unwanted children, would you take them on, would you provide for them, love them educated them, teach them right from wrong?
Unfortunately in the society we live into we don't have that option, the society we live in today is very much it won't happen to me, we live in a society where sex is openly talked about, we live in a society where sex is made to appear fashionable, for want of a better word, were people will have one night stands regardless of what the consequences are, we live in a society where being promiscuous isn't frowned upon, where a young learn what sex is pretty quickly before they learn that with sex comes responsibility and that the price can be high.
And the unborn child - does it have no rights whatsoever?
but when does it become a baby? at 1 week 2 weeks 8 weeks 12 weeks 18 weeks, neither of them a fetus isn't viable it would not survive outside of the womans body,
yes at 12 weeks it is fully formed and has it's own heart beat but it wouldn't survive, at 18 weeks the same thing. it wouldn't survive, no woman should be forced to carry on with a pregnancy that she doesn't want, she shouldn't be forced to raise a child that she never wanted, each child that has been born has the right to be loved, we have enough unwanted unloved children who need homes, they need to be loved they need to be protected and they need to be wanted, without bringing more into the world, | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:06:26 PM | MSG 33 Thanks for the reply.
I was referring to the obvious contradiction between your 'every woman's right' comment with 'it should not be used for contraception'. I accept that you were referring to multiple abortions, and that you think that aborting one for contraceptive reasons is perfectly acceptable.
no woman should be forced to carry on with a pregnancy that she doesn't want
I have run into a few who have have had multiple terminations, in these cases I feel very strongly that a termination should no longer be offered.
Again, the contradiction. If the woman doesn't want the child, then surely the 'n'th abortion should be offered?
I cannot think of another option bar sterilization,
A tad late for the baby she is carrying!
but when does it become a baby?
As soon as the embryo starts to form, in my opinion. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:19:07 PM | lol this thread has the potential to go on for a year and a day, people will never all agree on abortion because it is such an emotional subject.
I dont agree or disagree with it, i personally havent had one but went as far as having my legs in stirrups and the anesthetic coming towards my hand before i lashed out, tried to get out, fell over and punched a nurse as i thought she was trying to stop me before running and getting my own clothes back on and running like the clappers to get away.
BUT if someone feels it is right for them to do so, then we cannot stop them.
I do think the law should be changed to a maximum of 12 weeks, health wise or otherwise. As the regs and oldies will know, i have a nephew with downs and the abortion date can be so late for women that decide their baby isnt perfect enough for them to abort...
Its just a subject that is filled with huge emotion and no one will ever say anything that everyone on the planet agrees with in regards to this | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:25:56 PM | Very difficult and emotive topic, and one I have given a lot of thought to before posting. I believe people should have the right to an abortion if circumstances mean that they cannot offer a stable upbringing to a child, for genuine reasons that have been mentioned already. If I believe that, I also have to accept that people have the right to an abortion because they have not made an effort to practice contraception properly, sometimes on repeated occasions. If abortion is legal, any judgement on a person's eligibility is surely tantamount to a character judgement? I agree there are many circumstances where abortion is sadly used as a contraceptive method, but if it is legal no one has the right to deny it to any woman, regardless of circumstances.
That said, I have been sexually active for almost twenty years and have managed to avoid any unwanted pregnancies by being sensible - I know contraception is not 100% effective, but the rates of failure do not even begin to explain the rates of abortion. I should be honest and point out that, in a large part, I am in favour of people being allowed this choice because the vast majority of pro life groups are religious lobby groups and I personally believe that allowing religious groups to have any power over government policy, or individuals' choices, is an extremely bad route to go down.
I would add that emotive language such as killing and murder don't help people to feel they can discuss such topics, part of the reason I gave lengthy consideration to my reply. I don't think science has yet agreed a point at which life is deemed to exist and obviously different religions have their own opinions on this - I realise we we should expect emotive replies on an emotive subject.
vvvvv edit, punkin, it would be nice to think we could try and address the way society's morals have gone downhill, but I agree sometimes pragmatism is a more realistic option | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:32:43 PM | I always reply to you vin you know that
As soon as the embryo starts to form, in my opinion
and I agree with that statement, but at the same time with the way society is at present and with the amount of unwanted children we already have, what other choice do we have, the morals of our society have gone down hill, and if we can't look after the children we already have how is it fair to bring another on to this planet, each child born has the god given right to be loved by it's parents, unfortunately that isn't always the case, and we can only do so much. I firmly believe that until a viable solution can be put into place then we have no other option but the one we have, it's not right it's not fair, but what are the alternatives?: | |
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Mufski
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 37 | |
| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:40:04 PM | This thread has the potential to go on for a year and a day...
That's certainly the trewth... but some valid points have been made, although none of them are very original of course, I've seen this discussed to death on other forums in the past and there is never any result or conclusion...  | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 1:46:21 AM | | RE: msg 2........... Do you know any1 who,s had an abortion,let alone the reasons behind it. When i was a silly young girl i thought abortion was the most evil thing any1 cud ever do,then i grew up. There are many reasons for women too terminate pregnacy ,and i agree not all valid reasons , but think b4 you make that judgement. My best friend became pregnant due too being raped and repeatedly used as a punch bag by a so called "MAN" whom was meant too love and protect her (boyfriend) after months of this abuse her periods stopped, she put it all down the the stress of what was going on in her life, they also had a 2 yr old, when she went for a check up at the docs (cuz she also had pre cancerous cells in womb) he told her she was 5 months pregnant, she was devastated. Can you imagine being pregnant because some1 you love has raped you and beat you senseless? Im presuming you cant? so pls THINK about why ppl make these choices ,cuz it aint easy .Today she is no longer wiv that "ANIMAL" AND HAS COURT INJUNCTIONS OUT AGAINST HIM. She made the right choice for her and her children . | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 1:58:06 AM | MSG 37
I always reply to you vin you know that
Yes, and I'm grateful...
As soon as the embryo starts to form, in my opinion
and I agree with that statement,
Well, I find the killing of babies to be rather disgusting. True, there are always going to be circumstances that suggest that abortion is in the baby's best interests, and I would support such an act, then.
with the amount of unwanted children we already have, what other choice do we have
That sounds really Stalinist, but I get your point.
However, we are not talking about women who abort just because of the rising population. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 1:59:55 AM | Blue eyes01
I think you'll find that up to 12 weeks is classed as the first trimester... which is what I said in the original post (or my second one).
I have been there, I have done it. I felt my reasoning was sound. It wasn't done for contraception purposes (though how I got pregnant is still questionable as my partner of 2 years had supposedly had the snip), I did it because at the time I was living in a bed-sit with said partner, money and the welfare of said child was my concern and I felt I was too young. I asked for my partners input and I got 'do whatever you want' after I'd stated my reasons and asked for his opinion. Support would have been nice but was un-offered. (and yes he's long gone now)
I was also there for a friend when she had an abotion at 16, the condom split on her...
While I agree that it shouldn't be used as a form of contraception to take away the choice entirely would result in many unwanted children. Did you know they come here from Ireland quite a bit? Maybe having to travel for it would make it harder for those who feel it is a form of contraception. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 2:03:00 AM | | Well we aren't a Catholic state here sooooooo there should be freedom of choice. Unlike some Catholic countries where abortion is banned, even if you have been raped and find yourself pregnant!!! | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 9:52:51 AM |
If a woman can't be tested for genetic problems until 22 weeks, then she needs a bit of time to get her head round the implications of the choices she has to make. Thereby giving her the chance to think about keeping her baby.
genetic testing can take place basicly from conception.... ok, if there is no known genome (forgive me if iam a tad incorrect) for the disability then ultrasound scans need to veryfy the condition of the foetus and its viability.
Downs syndrome can be detected via ultrasound as early as 9 weeks following markers, its called a neuchal fold, measures the fluid on teh base of the neck.... then a CVS is offered to confirm diagnosis, a CVS is a placental sample and most genetic conditions can bve picked up this way.
what ever medical reasons for late abortions are, the main reason is COST.... not to the woman but to the NHS. A neuchal fold is around £100 a general ultrasound at 20-22 weeks is around £70 again it all comes down to weighing up cost effectivness.... money.... root of all evil.....
BTW i am not a medic or anything, just have a little personal experiance.
PF x | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 10:24:57 AM | whilst not an 'ideal' , abortion should never be banned for all sorts of reasons.
if men were the ones who could become pregnant then it would be very different. ultimately its the womans body and as such who is anyone to tell her what she can and cannot do with it.
As a mother i do not like the idea..but as a woman..i would defy anyone ever ever ever who tried to tell me what i can and cannot do with my body. Yes there are those who argue over the 'unborn child'..do they also take into account the mental and physical well being of the woman, who if denied a termination, would need to endure? I think not.
lou
xx | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 2:58:13 PM | Clarification of my post,
I don't think that they should be used as a form of contraception,
Contraception (methods that prevent conception) is freely available; the pill, condoms, coils, snips, any combination of the above. If the condom slips, splits or bursts; or even if you've used the time honoured method of crossing your fingers and closing your eyes, there is the morning after pill. These should be the method of first choice (though not the crossed fingers one). Abortion should not be thought of as such, IMO.
I do believe in a woman's right to choose whether she becomes a mother or not.
Absolutely. Be proactive in that choice and employ a reliable contraceptive. But if it all goes pear-shaped, then I believe a woman should have the right to terminate the pregnancy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate of self-responsibility (see above) but I also believe that consent to sex is not an automatic consent to motherhood.
In an ideal world, all pregnancies would be planned and wanted but that's not where we live.
Ironically, it was my own pregnancy that crystallised my feelings on abortion. J was very much wanted but being pregnant was not pleasant (for me), the thought of forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy that she did not want became abhorrent to me.
I also believe (possibly somewhat niavely) that becoming pregnant changes a woman's life. Whether she chooses to continue her pregnancy or end it, she knows life is forever different.
I hope this clarifies what I was thinking. As I said before, IMO abortion is a necessary evil. I don't like it but I accept the need for it and therefore will defend it. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/22/2007 3:18:02 PM | mmm...so how many would say abortion is wrong but would back up the use of the morning after pill ? whats the difference... would that be more morally acceptable ? what about contraception in general? thats sustaining the act of conception, stopping a life being created is that more acceptable ?
people have different morals for different acts... its how its worded or legalised ( and who legalises it again ?? oh yeah ,the western world based on religious beliefs ) that seems to have different reactions... | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/25/2007 2:13:21 PM | Jin i was'nt having a dig love, i do sypathise with you, you did at the time what you thought was right , and still do.
While i know many are done within 12 weeks, which i do think is acceptable, there are just as many if not more that are done after this period and not just for medical reasons.
Thats the point i was making, im not for or against abortion, like i said its upto the individual and the circumstances at the time, its the time limit i have issues with.
Once its getting upto or behond the 20 week stage, its fully formed and breathing even if only in the womb and abortions carried out at this stage to me is, like someone else said........ its like murdering a baby......
i suppose this debate is catch 22, that will no doubt go on forever and ever | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/25/2007 2:24:16 PM | | whether any of us agree with it or not we can't go back to the days of back street abortion can we? that's all that would happen. | |
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| The UK's Stance on Abortion
Posted: 5/31/2007 3:59:13 PM | "Well we aren't a Catholic state here sooooooo there should be freedom of choice. Unlike some Catholic countries where abortion is banned, even if you have been raped and find yourself pregnant!!!"
Yep, unlike over here where girls cant get an abortion when really needed. There are still back street abortionists and flocks of gals flooding over to England to get the help they really need.
"you wanna watch vera drake...... "
Bloody good film that was, if anything convinced me that back street abortions can be done with the best interests at heart that was it. I do think that there is a need for a lot of education for our young lads and lasses in school about preventing pregnancy in the first place ya know | |
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