| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 1:12:16 PM | | well... that's why they call it "faith"... thats why people say "taking a leap of faith". it implies that all things tell you otherwise but you still do something. you cant prove they exist... but the flip side of the argument is that you cant prove they dont. I personally believe in god and angels. but that is a personal choice. if we knew for certain that god or angels existed then concepts of reward and punishment... heaven or hell... and free will start to lose their meaning. the reason is that all people would believe in a god or angels. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 1:18:46 PM | I was waiting for and expecting that very response leafs. *sigh*
*edit* Absolute, so much wisdom for someone so young, good on ya! | |
|
~Tia~
|
Joined: 7/17/2005
Msg: 78 | |
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 1:19:48 PM |
I challenge anyone to disprove angels or a higher power exists. Come on, I am waiting...................................
The opposite challenge can also be made. It is just as difficult to provide concrete proof of the existence of these things as it is to disprove their existence. Personally, I'm agnostic. I don't believe, or disbelieve at this point, because no one has been able to give me concrete proof to back up either side. It's for that reason that I don't attempt to tell people that they should, or shouldn't, have their own beliefs. I respect both believers opinions, as well as the opinions of non-believers. I merely get a little irritated when people are told they are silly, superstitious, or messed up for having their own beliefs, and take exception to people who say those things. *shrugs*
It's not that people choose not to believe, it's not even that they choose to think that others might be silly, et al. for believing in that which they personally don't. It's the public belittling of those people for believing by stating that they are silly, or messed up, for having those beliefs that ticks me off. Believe what you want, think what you want, but have the common courtesy to keep the name calling of those who believe differently in your head instead of being rude. Of course, that's what I've been saying all along, but it hasn't been getting across, obviously, since I keep being told about egocentrical women, and being accused of personal attacks.
This will be my last post on the subject, since I'm very tired of trying to word things in different ways so that people will understand that it's not their beliefs I'm taking to task, it's their manner of belittling others for theirs that's pissing me off. Sometimes, a night in the emergency room at the VG/Infirmary waiting for doctors to tell you that you can take your father home, and watching people come in beat up and in various stages of being under their own power because of senseless acts of random violence gives you a different perspective on things. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 1:25:03 PM | 1coolchick: You should know all about name calling since you emailed me and constantly made fun of my pictures and insulted me about my appearance in your emails.
Then I try to email you to explain my position more and you block me. After all of that I still didn't say anything bad or insult you. (and believe me most people would after some of the things you said) Your sounding just a little hypocritical to me.
ot: Maybe I was a little harsh and didn't think anyone would be this hurt by spouting my opinions on this subject. To anyone extremely offended, I apologize. I won't retract my beliefs and still think what I think but I guess I could use more tact in my opinions with regards to religion since it seems to be such a touchy subject. I suppose it is a useless topic to argue since everyone thinks what they think about it and almost nothing will change that.
(Although I've done a complete 180 in my beliefs since I was younger). | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 1:32:41 PM | Very good absolute. 
My usual answer to the prove that they don't exist question is the fact that you can't prove they do exist.
Most people need something to believe in. And it is a personal choice. I don't believe in god or angels. Does that make me a bad person? Should I be chastised because I don't and you do? NO!!!
It's very much an inner personal choice and people shouldn't be trying to force their beliefs on one another. I'm not going to try to convince you that there isn't a god. Why should I? It's your decision. I respect your decision and choices.
It just seems that the people that do believe seem to think one is evil if they don't believe. I'm not going to say people are messed up or slightly insane if they do believe. I'm going to say good for you, but don't try convert me to your beliefs. I will listen too, and understand, why you believe but do not appreciate having it pushed onto me. I'm mature enough and, I think intelligent enough (ok, I have my moments. No car key jabs), to decide on my own. Much like with my daughters. I occasionally went to church with them, as the ex was more religous then I obviously was, and I let them make their own decision. I never preached to them that god doesn't exist. It would be their choice to decide. However, they are more in my line of thinking now, but they are 18 and 22.
Personally, to me there is only one high power and that is the NSLC.  
Edit: There Darlena........feel better. :o) Boy, I wish I could use that tongue icon in edit mode. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 1:59:09 PM | | leafs, that is all you had to say! My point was exactly that, whatever people choose to believe in, whether it is God, angels, a pet rock, it is their choice and their right to believe in what they want. And leafs you could have used the tongue in edit mode, but I am not going to tell you how as I am too busy praying to the great tongue emoticon! | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 4:17:01 PM | you know... this whole discussion made me think about something. Here is the thing... I am a very rational person. I do believe in science and valid proof. I believe in rational thinking and logic. although it doesnt have to always be "valid" or "true"... its merely based on information currently available. History is filled with instances where people and scientists believed one thing bases on current data only to be proved wrong later. Ok... after my long-winded introduction please allow me to make what I believe to be a logical argument for the belief in god or a higher being. This type of argumentative thinking was first adopted by Socartes and Plato. A couple of disclaimers or assumptions first:
a. I am not discussing any god or any religion specifically but rather the idea of a god or a higher being.
b. The basis of any religion or a higher being is that believers are rewarded and disbelievers and punished in some kind of after life (doesnt really matter how).
ok... now... lets start from scratch... there are only two scenarios:
1. either god exists.
2. Or god doesn't exist.
Let's analyze each case:
1. God exists and there is an afterlife: there are two types of people:
a. those who believe in god --> those will follow what god says and eventually when they die will be rewarded by that entity.
b. Those who do not believe in god --> those will do what they feel is right, or good, or just, which may or may not be what god intended. result --> they will be punished somehow after they die.
2. God doesnt exist: again we have the same two types of people... those who do and those who dont. Except now there is a major difference --> when people die, they are warm food. nothing happens... they have no memory of anything. they do not exist anymore in any form. they have not consciousness of their being or their previous existence. this means that they wont regret either believing or not believing in a higher being. how could they, right? so believing or not believing is non-sense and doesnt make a difference for them.
from all the above scenarios is seems to me that the only logical and rational one is to believe in god. they cant lose anything if they do or dont (assuming god doesnt exist)... but have the potential to win everything if they do RATHER than if they dont (assuming god exists).
To me... it seems logical and rational to believe in some kind of a higher being (based on the previous assumptions)
Does this make sense to anyone else??? cause it does make sense to me and I think I may not be explaining myself in the best way... maybe I should lay off the weed!! lol... kidding... I rarely use that stuff anyway.
would love to hear from anyone on this matter... and I am fully capable of accepting any flaws in my logic.
PS - sorry for the long winded post! | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 4:20:17 PM | | about the only flaw i see in your thinking is that spiritual beliefs are rarely if ever rooted in logic. if they were then they would no longer be spiritual. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 4:28:55 PM | @ puppet master: yeah I probably missed that one while I was staring at my closet full of shirts!!  (referring to thread: Most likely to__________)   | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 4:33:17 PM | b. Those who do not believe in god --> those will do what they feel is right, or good, or just, which may or may not be what god intended. result --> they will be punished somehow after they die.
See, this is what gets me about the"believers". If you don't believe you will be punished.  Thus you are wrong not to believe. All that really does is create hatred towards others. Because you don't believe you are evil and will be punished.
Since it's all about what you believe in, and I believe in the god doesn't exist theory, then why is the god does exist theory more logical and rational. It only is if he/she really exists and in my world he/she doesn't. No regrets here. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 4:36:42 PM | @absolute
oh i doubt it was a miss...maybe playing devils advocate!
ot.....while i don't technically believe in angels per se i do believe in guiding forces in our lives.
that being said i have a friend that i always refer to as an angel, he is one of those truly "good" people that we are sometimes fortunate enough to meet. his pic is on my profile...he's the one in the tunnel, and the first thing i noticed when i saw the pic is the way the shadow behind him looks like angel wings...(at least to me)...it was kinda weird. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 5:30:00 PM | @ Puppet Master: you are right!! It does look like an angel! great photos by the way... and great talent.
@ Leafs: a couple of clarifications... when I said that they will be punished I didnt mean they will go to hell or anything lol... but since the belief in god or a higher being connot be proved or disproved then there has to be a consequence for believing or disbelieving, hence reward and punishment. now... punishment can be something totally different than hell and burning fires! :) here is a stupid analogy (I already admit its stupid so please dont call me one! lol) suppose you have a really good kid and a really bad one (a trouble maker of sorts)... you really love both and if you can afford it you might buy each a car... some people may decide to buy the "good" one a really nice car and the trouble maker an ordinary car... they both can get from here to there but only one gets there in style (this sounded so much better in my head! hehehe)
Also, it is not a matter or your world and mine... we both live in the same world... if god exists then he/she exist for both of us no just one hence, the senarios I proposed. Please dont think Im trying to get you to change your views or anything... what you believe in is what you believe in... I was merely making a rational argument through the use of logical deduction... It just so happens to be about god | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 6:00:10 PM |
See, this is what gets me about the"believers".
Now now leafs, you are generalizing, how about "this is what gets me about 'some' believers"!
Sometimes it is hard to believe you are a fellow leafs fan!  | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 6:05:33 PM | | Speaking of "believers" - I had a lady tell me today that she was worshipping the lord a few nights ago, and he made her dollar store necklace into real gold. I wanted to laugh in her face, but instead asked if she would mind taking my rhinestone jewellry and asking him to turn them into diamonds for me. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/14/2006 6:54:27 PM | Darlena, I'm a realistic Leafs fan. I'm loyal to the hilt, but I also know when they have a good team and a so-so team.
You are right, I did generalize because the majority of those that believe seem to be disgusted with me when I tell them I'm an Atheist. It's kind of like a sterotype. Stereotypes are based on something. 
Absolute: Why does there have to be a consequence for believing or disbelieving? Why does there have to be reward and punishment? Why are other people deciding what car you buy for your kids?
A true parent that loves both of his kids would try to buy them the same car. Parents shouldn't differentiate. I guess that shows the attitude of someone that believes in reward and punishment. That one of their own children should be treated better than the other. Of course that could explain why my very Catholic mother appears to favor one of my daughters over the other.
I have no accusations of you trying to change my views. I can't think of anything that will. I just don't think that was a good analogy. I don't think it was stupid, as I understand what you were trying to say. I think it just showed prejudice towards "non-believers". | |
|
libbyv
|
Joined: 8/17/2005
Msg: 91 | |
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/15/2006 5:57:08 AM | leafs, as far as I can tell you seem to be prejudice of any believers. You've mentioned that you're an atheist. You don't believe in God, or anything spiritual , including angels.
| |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/15/2006 6:32:27 AM |
leafs, as far as I can tell you seem to be prejudice of any believers
How so???? | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/15/2006 6:35:34 AM | I believe angels are those cute, chubby people I paint in ceramic class.
I believe people who are loving and helpful towards mankind are my angels.
I believe in Humans, who on their very own can be disappointing , but sometimes step up and show you real brother/sisterhood.
I am a free thinking person.
I don't believe in a heaven or a hell. Just the life I am living now. and that is really good enough for me.
i like angelfood cake and angel pasta | |
|
| |
| |
| |
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/30/2008 10:32:01 AM | Yes I beleive in gaurdian angels... and Iam an old man ,,,many times i get a little lonely for all my friends that have passed on... I often talk to them through prayer as I know they can hear... I tell them of how much I miss them and recall all the good times we had together !!.....
Many times I ask for help when I have a problem,,and they always come through with an answer or some kind of help ...
I remember when John Lennen at his funeral service ....his guru , the man that was teaching him ho to play an old aisian instrument...he said to the group of close friends standing around ... becareful what you are thinking as your thoughts go directtly to him ,.. ( the deceased)  | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/30/2008 11:39:53 AM | It gives me peace and comfort in my mind and soul by having and keeping the faith...
to each their own...I believe in angels and spirits...as far as heaven and hell...at times I think we are already in hell, here on earth with A LOT of lost souls swirling around temptations at us...I may be part and a little ish at times...however, I'll never be a lost soul if I keep the faith. | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/30/2008 12:20:13 PM |
I'm agnostic.
People tend to use the terms agnostic and atheist fairly loosely. Sometimes they mean the same thing. For example, the author of the God delusion, Richard Dawkins, thought by many to be one of the more famous atheists, admits to being agnostic when pressed. The reason he admits this is because it's the only honest scientific answer. However, he will also state that simply admitting that you can't disprove the existence of God does not mean you treat the idea with any credibility. One can accept a possibility and attach a probability to it. Most scientists are agnostic but the probability they attach to God's existence is similar to the probability they attach to the Tooth Fairies. Thus, sometimes they adopt the label of atheist because they feel it's more representative to the average person of their true position.
You can't prove God doesn't exist. But then again, you can't prove the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. In fact, there's substantially more tangible evidence for the latter in most people's lives. Presenting the argument as if it's equally valid either way is an illusion. One could concede that they can't prove God doesn't exist while still making various sound arguments about the probability that would affect the rationality of believing or not believing.
One of my favourite examples of how truly unsolvable this problem is, as a humanity issue, comes from Carl Sagan when asked, "If God came down here before you today and said, 'I am God, believe in me.' would you admit the existence of God?" Sagan responded, "no." To a theist this is just proof of what a completely unreasonable fellow Sagan was. They lean back and go "hmmmph, you just don't get it." To a scientist this is a perfect example of just how reasonable a fellow Sagan was because of the many principles of science unsatisfied by such an encounter (and if you understand this debate why Contact is such a fascinating take on it). | |
|
| Do you believe in angels?
Posted: 9/30/2008 12:48:57 PM | | WHAT...no tooth fairy???? I'm crushed....geeezzz next ya's are gonna try and tell me there's no Santa!!! | |
|
Home
login 
