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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 26 | |
| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 6/26/2007 8:53:32 PM | Words, ....
Religion
It depends on which definition you choose to go by, ...so my definitive answer?
Yes
No
Maybe | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 6/27/2007 9:52:40 AM | I believe it was Deepak Chopra who once said.....God gave us spirituality....the devil saw that, organized it, and called it religion.... | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/25/2007 8:44:22 PM | | If Buddhism is not a religion (&, personally, I think it easily qualifies as one, esp. if one prefaces "religion" w/ "nontheistic") would it then NOT be protected by the "free exercise" clause of the First Amendment? | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 12:24:52 AM | | I think Buddhism is a moral philosophy. However, so are religions. Buddhism is not as rigid, generally, as the three Abrahamic faiths or even Hinduism, but if you consider something that has a spiritual component and has a general way of life to be a religion, you could say it is loosely a religion. I think it partially depends on how you take it. I personally don't think it matters, it depends on the end human product rather than the religion. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 2:10:26 AM |
Technically, none of them are supposed to believe in a deity, but some sects of Buddhism still believe in supernatural entities and ghosts and weird crap like that. I think I get what you're saying, so we'll ignore all the crazies and stick to just the core of Buddhism as taught by Buddha.
Buddhism developed alongside classical Hinduism, in Indian Buddhism at that time it was readily accepted that there were Gods, demons, spirits, ghosts, etc. But as has already been stated, those Gods where essentially little different from the average human and were inferior to the enlightened mind.
In terms of deities, Buddhism is damned paradoxical. It accepts that there are gods, but they are just as much a part of samsara as the rest of us. Therefore they are as transient and as lacking of self as we are. There cannot be a Creator god, because that would imply a transcendence that is impossible.
I am also quite tired of the way people automatically associate religion with deity. Religion is a VERY vague term. To limit it the way a lot of people do, renders a lot of religions as not religion though they clearly are. But the wider you define it, the more strange things end up as religion. eg: football. Just try to tell me that in some places in the US football is the dominant religion.
In the end, what you consider as religion for yourself does not matter. A religion is a religion even if you do not like to think of it as such. Buddhism is a religion.
In the eyes of publishers, academia, and law: it is a religion.
My question is this: what do you have to gain by saying that Buddhism is NOT a religion? Why is it so important? | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 2:23:20 AM | I have always consider Buddhism as a philosphy. A way of life.
Buddha literally means 'teacher' and from my understanding of Buddhism, anyone can obtain the title of Buddha. I could be wrong about that though. It has been awhile since I actually sat down and researched the subject.
You may have just sent me back to the books to research! | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 3:55:26 AM |
Buddhism is not as rigid, generally, as the three Abrahamic faiths or even Hinduism,
You obviously haven't heard of all of the schools of Buddhism. It can be every bit as rigid. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 4:28:33 AM | I personally see religion as the REQUIREMENT for following certain dogma, practices, etc..... Buddhism does not have that at its core. Yes, there are some paths that have dogma.... NOW... but they were not originally perceived as such.
As stonestongue so eloquently put it..."Some have gods, some don't, but the ones that do, believe that a person is only ruled by gods until they are enlightened and that these gods are not higher in power than an awakened mind." In order to get to that stage of 'enlightenment' requires meditation, as the meditative practice allows one to look within with a clear looking glass.... which is why Buddhism, by those within it, is usually considered a meditative practice, but not a religion. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 7:53:46 AM | My question is this: what do you have to gain by saying that Buddhism is NOT a religion? Why is it so important?
Though I can't say for sure because I don't really care either way, I think it's because alot of the folks who seek the refuge of Buddhism are trying to get away from other religions and simply like not calling it a religion.
Buddha literally means 'teacher' and from my understanding of Buddhism, anyone can obtain the title of Buddha. I could be wrong about that though.
In the way I percieve Buddhism you just about got it... It's not that anyone can become a Buddha, it's that you just have to wake up to the fact that you already are a Buddha.
That is nice to hear.Jesus was teaching what the fully enlightened one was teaching 500 years before so therefore it is safe to say God exists as infinite love .
Although I'd leave out the "it is safe to say" part and put "I believe" in it's place, I really dig that post!
Wow... As much as I like to say I'm not Buddhist(just for the label and the "cling" factor), I guess I am... What the Buddha calls Buddha Nature, I call God(well, I call It alot of things really).
*EDIT-- I believe if you seek, you will find the buddha nature within yourself... Or God, if you will allow me to say. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 11:23:29 AM |
I personally see religion as the REQUIREMENT for following certain dogma, practices, etc..... Buddhism does not have that at its core. Yes, there are some paths that have dogma.... NOW... but they were not originally perceived as such.
We are not debating the FUNCTION of religion, but what it IS.
No religion started out with dogma, they all developed it over time. Buddhism does have dogma, depending on the school you are looking at, just like there are some forms of christian thought that do not have explicit dogma. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 11:52:23 AM | Buddhism developed alongside classical Hinduism, in Indian Buddhism at that time it was readily accepted that there were Gods, demons, spirits, ghosts, etc. But as has already been stated, those Gods where essentially little different from the average human and were inferior to the enlightened mind.
It developed FROM hinduism, not alongside it. It has roughly the same parent-child relationship that the Jewish-Christian faiths do.
Its true that a god/spirit/demon isnt superior to an enlightened mind, but several of those gods were enlightened beings too. In fact the first telling of anything gaining enlightenment was when the god of the Sky seized brahmas nature in a reed cast on the wind.(Brahma being "The All"). Later on, a few generations before the Buddha got his enlightenment by meditating under a tree, Krishna was BORN in a state of enlightenment. (theres even a story of a girl who slept with him once, and reached the state of enlightenment by crying out his name while waiting for him to return for a second fling)
I am also quite tired of the way people automatically associate religion with deity.
Agreed. A Buddhist telling me he dosnt have a religion, but a philosophy is on par with the dung about christianity being a relationship with god and not a religion. Or "spiritual, not religious"... very few of them are actually into Vodun, ritual possession, channeling, or any actual work with spirits... and even then, those are all part of one faith or another. Collecting bits of other religions and gluing them together dosnt mean you dont have a religon either... maybe it means you are open minded about your religion, but ya still have one.
Buddhism is not as rigid, generally, as the three Abrahamic faiths or even Hinduism
I dont agree here at all. Chinese Buddhism has a big fat dose of the Tao, and thats certainly not rigid... but i think the buddhas message of detachment and self-salvation is a much more disciplined path than the ones offered by the four faiths you mention.
Wow... As much as I like to say I'm not Buddhist(just for the label and the "cling" factor), I guess I am... What the Buddha calls Buddha Nature, I call God
You arent too far off from the hindu either. They Call it Brahma. The story of this magnificent god straddles the ideas of "god who isnt" and the "great creator" and ties the two concepts nicely.
Brahma was the first thing, like the bibles god.... and created everything, but instead of making his creation seperate from himself, he made all things from his own flesh. "He" ceased to be and the universe sprang into being. (this story varies in some tellings, im paraphrasing). We are all one because we are all "him", but because of his actions we are also individuals and he is no more. (sorta)
J | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 3:59:03 PM |
In the way I percieve Buddhism you just about got it... It's not that anyone can become a Buddha, it's that you just have to wake up to the fact that you already are a Buddha.
I was off yesterday for sure... Enlightenment is really just one step towards being Buddha eventhough we all have Buddha nature in us and all have the potential to be Buddha (through karmic rebirth)... They say we will all be Buddhas someday, but I guess an Infinity of lifetimes will do that to an aspect of life, haha... We have to put it into action by practicing compassion to all beings and eventually, we will be Buddhas... No matter how many lifetimes it takes...Sorry, just saw a correction to make on my statement there.
It is such a weird call though... Although I kind of think of it as a religion, I look up to the wisdom of H.H. The Dalai Lama and he insists his only religion is kindness. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 4:02:47 PM | Some unusually good thought in this thread...many POVs well-represented.
I wonder if Guatama were pressed on this question he mightn't say something like, "Why do you permit yourself to dwell on such trivialities when the rice is ready for harvest?" Fun, though. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 4:13:41 PM | Buddhism belief or otherwise...
If reincarnation is true, and I have no idea - no honest way of knowing it does, then I can only conceive that the purpose of this transformation is to improve on the former self, i.e. to return to a higher level of intelligence/form. Otherwise a judgement will have transpired reducing the soul to something inadequate... I find that beneath a loving creator's wishes/plan. There are other concepts that transpire though... if say I was a murder and unrepentant, what should I expect? All very thought-provoking. :) | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 6:22:29 PM | Hi Pujakama :)
Collecting bits of other religions and gluing them together dosnt mean you dont have a religon either... maybe it means you are open minded about your religion, but ya still have one. Are you saying that it isn't possible to be spiritual without also being religious?
The thing is, the word religion is extremely difficult to define... how can your above statement be made when no one even has a definitive defintion of the word religion... ?
I collect the the bits I resonate with from the religions/paths/philosophies/practices and perspectives that I have looked into and carry them with me as I progress on my spiritual path.... I am open minded about religion, but also do not and never will have one... | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 6:42:29 PM | | Yes Buddhism is a religion, it has beliefs, practices and dogma that have nothing to do with this life and what it has to offer. More and more it is becoming made up chit, in that I mean there is no experience, just words....concepts. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 7:53:53 PM | The thing is, the word religion is extremely difficult to define...
No, i think you mean God is difficult to define. Religion is a word we use to mean folks that have a belief in some sort of divine power or system. Thats religion. Im not saying that collecting bits of various faiths is wrong. (in fact i do this, and called it "open minded")
Im just saying that it IS religion. You havent escaped from having a religion by taking parts of many.
how can your above statement be made when no one even has a definitive defintion of the word religion... ?
You can google "define: Religion" and itll link you to a load of dictionaries. Youll find some common ground on how most of them say the word should be used. (see the post right above this one!)
I collect the the bits I resonate with from the religions/paths/philosophies/practices and perspectives that I have looked into and carry them with me as I progress on my spiritual path.... I am open minded about religion, but also do not and never will have one...
This is just an open ended pantheism, not really to much diffrent than when the romans took Isis from egypt and built her a temple in their city. (their third largest temple). Adding something didnt make them suddenly not have a religion. (dropping unpopular gods and traditions didnt either) You can say you dont have one, I can also say that a butterknife is a cute fuzzy animal.
Have a belief in a higher power? Some metaphysical system of justice or an afterlife? Those are parts of faith, the human practice of religion. Just because you dont AGREE with most of the peoples stories about THEIR religions... dosnt mean you have escaped religion, unless you are an atheist. Anything from the curious, hesitant, agnostic... to the most fanatic of zealots are all participating in religion.
When hearing someone tell me they dont have a religion... I want to tell them not to be to proud of how humble they are. (again, except for those atheists)
Are you saying that it isn't possible to be spiritual without also being religious?
Are you saying that muffler isnt part of a car?
Hi Pujakama :)
Hi hi. We love bumping into you on the forums! Always nice when a pretty girl singles you out by name. 
J | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 8:23:06 PM | ///The thing is, the word religion is extremely difficult to define...
No, i think you mean God is difficult to define. Religion is a word we use to mean folks that have a belief in some sort of divine power or system. Thats religion. Im not saying that collecting bits of various faiths is wrong. (in fact i do this, and called it "open minded")///
There always has been, & will no doubt continue to be, much discussion & disagreemant on what exactly is meant by "religion." Some theologians find "divine power" too limiting (as with Paul Tillich's definition of religion simply as "ultimate concern.") For instance, where is the divine power in Confuscianism? Some even argue atheism itself qualifies as a religion inasmuch as it articulates a position on the existence of God, albeit a negative one.
The driver behind this whole thread is the question, "What is religion?" We all know Buddhism when we see, but is what we are seeing a religion?
PS Isn't anyone who considers Buddhism not to be a religion going to address my question regarding its practice being afforded protection under the First Amendmend, or is that a stumper? | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 8:28:15 PM |
No, i think you mean God is difficult to define. I know exactly what I mean..
Yes... God is difficult to define, but so is religion...
Religion is a word we use to mean folks that have a belief in some sort of divine power or system. WE define? Hmmm... interesting, that is not how I term the word... does that make my view of religion faulty? Or just different than yours?
You can google "define: Religion" and itll link you to a load of dictionaries Can I?? I have written essays on the topic......... but don't take my word for it:
Defining the word "religion" is fraught with difficulty. Many attempts have been made. Most seem to focus on too narrowly only a few aspects of religion; they tend to exclude those religions that do not fit well. As Kile Jones wrote in his essay on defining religion:
"It is apparent that religion can be seen as a theological, philosophical, anthropological, sociological, and psychological phenomenon of human kind. To limit religion to only one of these categories is to miss its multifaceted nature and lose out on the complete definition." 1
All of the definitions that we have encountered contain at least one deficiency:
Some exclude beliefs and practices that many people passionately defend as religious. For example, their definition might include belief in a God or Goddess or combination of Gods and Goddesses who are responsible for the creation of the universe and for its continuing operation. This excludes such non-theistic religions as Buddhism and many forms of religious Satanism which have no such belief.
Some definitions equate "religion" with "Christianity," and thus define two out of every three humans in the world as non-religious.
Some definitions are so broadly written that they include beliefs and areas of study that most people do not regard as religious. For example, David Edward's definition would seem to include cosmology and ecology within his definition of religion -- fields of investigation that most people regard to be a scientific studies and non-religious in nature.
Some define "religion" in terms of "the sacred" and/or "the spiritual," and thus require the creation of two more definitions.
Sometimes, definitions of "religion" contain more than one deficiency. http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_defn.htm
Im just saying that it IS religion. You havent escaped from having a religion by taking parts of many. That is your opinion only...
The New Age is sometimes referred to as a religion. However, it is in reality a collection of diverse beliefs and practices from which a practitioner may select those that appeal to her/him. Exactly my point.... I have no religion and that is for ME to decide, not you....
With the definition being so open, I have that perogative whether it fits with your particular views or not ;)
Anything from the curious, hesitant, agnostic... to the most fanatic of zealots are all participating in religion. Again, your opinion only.
When hearing someone tell me they dont have a religion... I want to tell them not to be to proud of how humble they are. And when people presume to define religion for me and thus the essential character of my spiritual beliefs and practices I cannot help but think he is being entirely arrogant, but hey... that's just me and my little old opinion ;)
Are you saying that it isn't possible to be spiritual without also being religious?
--->Are you saying that muffler isnt part of a car? Are you incapable of seeing that your car is not my car, muffler or no?
P.S.... it's nice to see you around the forums too :) | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 9:16:47 PM |
Are you incapable of seeing that your car is not my car, muffler or no?
Muffler or not, we both have cars.
.. does that make my view of religion faulty? Or just different than yours?
Im not questioning your view of religion, only your use of language.
J | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/26/2007 9:36:13 PM |
Im not questioning your view of religion, only your use of language. Hmmmm... and yet... that is what we are discussing... religion...
If I do not use the word properly in application, then wouldn't my views also be faulty?
If I say that my muffler is actually the steering wheel, then that would be a faulty view on my part.........
Regardless.... I know that I am part of no religion...
Sorry if this has been off topic as I am not Buddhist.. but I found the implication that a belief in God automatically makes one part of a religion to be rather constricting.. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/27/2007 12:02:45 AM |
It developed FROM hinduism, not alongside it. It has roughly the same parent-child relationship that the Jewish-Christian faiths do.
No. No, It didn't. Quoting mythological stories is not adequate cause to make such a claim. Buddhism developed right along side of classical Hinduism, Jainism, and Sikhism. They all have their origin in the same philosophical and cultural mixture.
Hinduism did not spring forth whole, it is a huge patchwork amalgamation of a myriad of different divinity cults.
Buddhism most certainly DOES NOT have the same parent-child relationship that you think Christianity and Judaism have.
Christianity and Judaism do not really have that kind of relationship either, the Judaism of today is as much a child of the Judaism of the past as Christianity. Like Hinduism and Buddhism, they are SIBLING religions.
The biggest mistake people make here is the assumption that Hinduism or Buddhism are somewhat unified in beliefs. They are not, they are a complex and often confusing tangle of many MANY different (sometimes contradictory) beliefs.
You may think that Christianity has a lot of sects, it's got NOTHING on the Hinduisms and Buddhisms. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/27/2007 1:04:05 AM |
Quoting mythological stories is not adequate cause to make such a claim.
Hinduism was in place and in working order a long time before Buddha was born. The bulk of his teachings work on the assumption that the hindu idea of Karma, wich predated him, was true. Buddha is also known for his teachings standing out for their rejection of hinduisms caste system, well entrenched before his birth.
Hinduism did not spring forth whole, it is a huge patchwork amalgamation of a myriad of different divinity cults.
I didnt say it did come into its flowering all at once, but it was indeed a fully fleshed and entrenched faith when the great sage was born into it.
Like Hinduism and Buddhism, they are SIBLING religions.
Youve failed to convince me other than what I was taught in school. Im thirsty and willing to follow any links you might have that will give me more details to convince me that buddha and his teachings somehow predate hinduism existing in a recognisable form.
As far as I know, the Vedas, Hinduisms first and "main" texts for their classic age... were written and widespread by about 800 BCE (with the faith existing in at least a few forms since 1500BCE, and further still depending on who you ask)... with the great sage being born into that culture some 300 years later around 550 BCE.
Ill agree that buddhism took off with massive popularity, and the two bounced ideas back and forth once the buddha fame was established... but I dont think that means buddhism isnt hinduisms child... i think it just means that they have a better parent-child relationship than christianity and judaism.
J | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/27/2007 1:41:44 AM | | Buddhism is more of an ancient philosophy. I would say it was influenced by Taoist and Hinduism belief systems, it's very Taoist, while some sects resemble the Hinduism influence. | |
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| Is buddhism a religion?
Posted: 10/27/2007 4:06:00 AM | One of the many lessons I learned while in southeast Asia was the meaning of "Why so attached?". Not one of the hundreds of buddhists I met there ever asked me whether I viewed buddhism as a philosophy or a religion. For that matter, not one of them asked me which tradition I practiced either.
However, on this continent I have been asked these two questions hundreds of times. It makes me wonder whether north Americans often get too hung up on the label or definition rather than the message. | |
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