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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 10/31/2009 10:07:11 AM | And Cowboy, I would think being a moderator alone would get you a ton of first contact emails Actually I was on here 3 years before I became a mod and have lived in 6 states on POF. The total people loging into the forums I think the Admin has pointed out are like 1/10 th of 1 percent of the POF population. Most that contact me don't have the foggiest idea what a moderator is. Probably helps that I am online so much so that my pic is in the top row of their inbox often!
But again you don't have to write a novel for a first contact here. Find something funny or clever to catch her attention. A few sentences should be fine for most. Say things that show you really read her profile! Ask a couple questions so she has something easy to reply to. This isnt hard. I think the pics/profile is where you sell yourself. THAT is where you spend a lot of time and effort! The first contact message just doesn't have to be lame. It is usually not the first message that is the problem. Either she didn't find you attractive on some level or she didnt like your profile. I promise if she liked the pics/profile as long as the message just doesn't really suk she will usually respond. But you need at least two out of those three things to have a shot. pics/profile/great first message. If you have two out of any of the three solid and the other is not really bad you will often get replies.
Cowboy | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 10/31/2009 12:27:18 PM | Well, I think all these posts just go to show you that everybody's different. Dude 1 doesn't care what woman writes, dude 2 does, dude 3 sorta does. Interestingly, my last first contact (not related to the forums) was a form letter/copy-and-paste. I was kind of scratching my head on that one -- I didn't think women sent enough first contact emails to have to resort to such methods. My response? I told her it probably wasn't a good idea to do that.
Now you're probably thinking, "YOU IDIOT! You sit here complaining about the lack of messages you get, and that's the response you have for the only first contact you've had since May? And doesn't that even completely contradict what you just said about how you'd handle a form message if you ever got one?" Not really. I said it'd probably have no bearing on whether or not I had any interest in her. And it didn't! I realized it wasn't going to work out for other reasons, but I figured the nice thing to do was to at least send her a polite response telling her what's been said in this thread about "generic emails." Had my "dream girl" (whatever that is) or even just someone who it would not be a really bad idea to date sent me the same email, my response wouldn't have included any information about her style of email whatsover.
Actually, the woman who has been dragging our communication out for 6 months (who I definitely like a lot other than that) sent one of the lamest first contact emails ever for anybody's taste: "How was your weekend?" I mean, how much more generic and simplistic can you get than that? I have no evidence whatsoever that she read my profile. But by God, I told her exactly how my weekend was as fast as my little fingers could type, because I was stunned that someone who seemed as cool as she is would even send me a first contact email at all. And like I said, from "How was your weekend?", we've been in more-or-less continuous contact for 6 straight months. ("How was your weekend?" actually has been pretty typical of her emails to me, unfortunately -- I only know a lot about her at this point because of the massive accumulation of emails and text messages.)
So I'm going to almost completely agree with 2ears1mouth's last post. Not sure about that last paragraph. I think he's referring to over-filtering on the receiving end, which he has a point -- I bet all 3 of my exes would have filtered me right out had we tried to meet through online means. However, if he's talking about on the sending end, obviously I'm an advocate of more of that so there's less time-wasting.
I actually agree completely with something Outmind said, about questions. I almost always ask a question in my first contact emails. Almost every time a woman actually responds to, all she does is answer that question -- nothing else. No questions for me. Bad, bad sign. I will try to drag it out anyway, but usually that one email in response to my original question is all I get. If they don't respond with a question or something similar, that likely indicates a lack of interest and I wouldn't get too excited about such a response.
Cynthia: I'm guessing from what you've written that you didn't think much of that quite generic email that doesn't indicate if he read your profile, despite the fact that it is fairly well-written and gives you plenty of info about the guy (reminds me of that last generic email I got, in fact). However, I won't go so far as to say you completely dismissed him based on that email -- I bet you checked him out first. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 10/31/2009 1:45:19 PM | You think that letter was well written?? I thought you were a journalist. Who do you think his audience is?
That email gets poor grade for describing him. A cut-and-paste email doesn't do that because 1) I don't necessarily believe it describes him, 2) I don't necessarily believe he wrote it. Plus, that email is very similar to one of the international scam emails I receive periodically.
That email gets poor grade for describing the woman he wants to meet. The woman he describes is too generic so I believe he sent the exact same email to every female registered on POF. The woman he describes is sort of pathetic.
That email totally fails in describing why he picked me out of the sea of fish or why I should pick him. 1) if he'd read my profile (or were more discerning) he'd know that woman doesn't describe me, and 2) there was absolutely zero content personalized to me.
That email totally fails even as an approach. There was no 'ask' - he didn't make me think he actually wants to meet because he didn't actually ask anything. I was left wondering why he even wrote to me.
So, yes, I did weed him out from just the email. Didn't even look at his profile. But I did respond with a message to the effect that we don't have anything in common.
You can expect him to show up in the forums one of these days whining about that game-playing ice queen who rejected him without even giving him a chance to show how special he is. Must have been his height. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 10/31/2009 3:00:56 PM | I like to think I'm a fairly creative fellow, and I'm all in favor of being somewhat creative in both my profile and an initial email, but let's face it, the majority of people look at the picture(s). If they don't get a sense of attraction, creative and funny quickly turns into strange and weird, and now its a reason to reject you. I wrote to someone not long ago, introducing myself and commenting on what I found appealing about her after seeing her profile. Her only response was to object to a reference to Hitler in my profile (I was humorously pointing out the irony, or so I thought, that even Hitler had a long term girlfriend), and that having that in my profile was a bad way to try to impress a woman.
The bottom line is, there is no magic formula to prompt a response from someone you send an email. Knowing that I stick to being true to myself; some will find that interesting, some too quirky for their tastes, and that's just fine. If she appreciates my intellect and sense of humor we'll probably get along. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 10/31/2009 8:18:04 PM |
So basically, what I'm trying to say in my long winded way is that when you get an email saying, "hey there, you seem nice, feel like chatting?", don't discard it solely on the fact that it lacks creativity.
Sometimes I do try. But the sad fact is, if that's their message to me, then no, I probably don't feel like chatting at all. I'm going to go back to the forums where people are saying actual things, or I'm going to go do something else for a while. I shouldn't have to put the words into a guy's mouth to make myself think things are going to be interesting. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 10/31/2009 8:52:34 PM | I get irritated when one of the (admittedly few) first-contact e-mails I receive is generic, but that's because I've left the person no excuse to send a generic e-mail. First, I have a fairly detailed profile, so there's a lot they could respond to there. But I also went ahead and added a few "icebreaker questions" under the First Date section of my profile.
So if you don't know what to say based on my profile, you can answer one or more of the questions I posted at the bottom. If somebody won't take the time to do one of those, then it's obvious they didn't read my profile, or they're not even willing to put a minimal amount of effort into writing to me. Doesn't exactly motivate me to put a lot into a response. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 3:32:44 AM | The "simple country guy's" message looked more like a profile than a message, and something like that would turn me off.
But if I got a message that simply said "Hi, you look interesting, I'd love to here more" (sic) from someone whose profile was as interesting as yours, CynthiaMw, I'd certainly be inclined to respond, simple message and "hear/here" brain fart be damned.
Saying it's one's duty to question authority makes up for a lot of misspellings, grammatical errors, and certainly typos in my book. Too bad you're 3000 miles away... and missing the fall Lake St. Clair musky and pike bite.  | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 7:14:02 AM | I saw the "country guys" response as needy, wishy washy with no conviction, a general idea of what he wants, but wants someone else to do the work so he can tag along. It seemed monotone, colorless and devoid of any depth. He started the email in a one down position, he makes no comment to her profile and only has descriptions of what he wants her to do and how he will follow or bend to what she may ask for. The killer is that damn “soul mate” comment! Aaarrgggg!
I guess the point I’m making is that if you see someone with a well written detailed profile that clicks with you some how, you are going to have to do more than, “Hi, how are you, tell me more” They have already told you more! Step up to the plate or let it pass, lead, follow or get out of the way!
Everybody is different and what one person responds to is quite different from another, the key is to use what you have and use it well, not to manufacture responses. If you feel it, run with what you feel, anything else is a game or a lie and it will all come out in the wash. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 7:23:30 AM | C: It was well-written in comparison to "Hey WU? Yur profile dope yo!" Now I can't say I've received too many emails like that, just because I can't say I've received too many emails, but certainly most of the female profiles I've read aren't better written than this guy's email. And from what I read in these forums, most men's emails that aren't well-honed generics are worse-written than that. I'm just saying, as far as the basics (grammar, spelling, sentence structure, coherence, etc.), there is nothing wrong with that email, which is a lot more than you can say for most emails around here, including nearly all that I've received! It would receive a good grade in a freshman English composition class (again, can't say that about most writing in this place). Is it going to win a Newberry award? Of course not. Could it be plagiarism? Sure. Does it accomplish what you want a first contact email to accomplish? Apparently not. But that still doesn't make it badly written, especially in comparison to most emails and profiles on Plenty of Fish.
But I will add this: if you're looking for someone brilliant and creative, then I definitely think you can disqualify someone for an email like this -- and in general, I think you can disqualify said-person based on his or her email. If you are brilliant, than your correspondence should indicate this. But as I suggested previously, I personally am not necessarily looking for anyone brilliant and creative. I'd prefer smart enough to relate to, but I'm not even going to get picky about that. None of my 3 exes fall into that category and I was perfectly fine with them. So I don't need to be blown away by an email.
You, just being a woman alone, are in a completely different position so I can understand your selective nature in regards to emails. But there's just no reason to believe most women on here are as picky about the nature of the emails they get. Those who post in the forums are probably a more selective bunch than most, and even the majority of the posts I've read here seem to indicate that they will respond to bad emails if the guy seems like someone they would want to date overall. And they won't respond to "good" emails if he seems like someone they wouldn't want to date for whatever reason. I'm quite sure I've sent a few good emails over the years that weren't replied to. I could be wrong about this, but it seems unlikely someone with my writing skills could send nothing but hundreds of bad emails. I'm sure I've sent some (just like I've written some questionable screenplays), but nearly ALL of them? And don't forget -- I've had much more success on other dating websites and used to frequently get "Oh, my God, you write the world's greatest emails, Presley!" responses all the time. So, either I've "lost it," or I've aged out of the group that thought I wrote the "world's greatest emails," or something is just really odd about Plenty of Fish. (Well, as I've already said, the lack of extensive preferences on this site doesn't help because I'm just wasting my time upfront on the vast majority of the emails I send, which I could be using to write even better first contact emails to women I actually have a chance with, plus it being a free site and all means the competition for a single woman's attention is just ridiculous.)
I'm not sure how that height knock at the end is fair. For one thing, I'd never assume a woman who actually wrote me back to say it wasn't going to work because we didn't have anything in common did so for any reasons other than what she said. But see here, there is the difference: in my entire POF existence, only one woman has ever written me back with ANY reason whatsoever why she wasn't interested (it was "lack of physical attraction" but she added we had a lot in common and lived near each other so we could still be friends. I never wrote her back -- I have a half million female friends who are enough trouble as it is -- and, no, not a single one of them has ever set me up or introduced me to an eventual girlfriend and only one of them ever turned into a girlfriend eventually, so there's really not much benefit to having a bunch of them. My best friend I've known for 13 years and she sets up her friends all the time, but not me! She keeps saying if she can find someone who thinks I'm cute, she'll do it.) I mean, you're pretty much in a different class from most women on here just for the fact that you actually reply back with a rejection. In fact, I think our problem here is that you are practically nothing like most of the women on this site, so your advice from your persepctive is likely not much good for most other women. But statistically, there's a pretty good chance most of the women who aren't returning my emails (and not telling me why) are doing so because of my height, ethnicity or just general lack of physical attraction. I mean, you really can't argue with the statistics of it. I've sent emails to women who had so much in common with me (including other writers) that they could be a twin separated at birth and still didn't hear from them at all -- not even an answer to any of my questions about things in their profiles we had in common.
Interestingly, the 6-month-POF woman actually told me in an email at some point that she almost didn't send me a first contact email because of my height, but then decided my profile was too cool to pass up. 1 in a million. Of course, we still haven't met, 6 months later.
BTW, speaking of the subject of "responses without questions," today I finally (after God knows how long) received a response from one of my recent first contacts. I asked her a question about her profile. She gave me a line answer, with no return questions and really no room to expand on her answer. I believe that's a bad sign. But I'm going to reply anyway and try to stretch it out. I suspect I will never hear from her again, which is exactly what has happened each previous time this occurred. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 8:45:25 AM | Thank you, 2ears1mouth.  Given my legal speciality is toxic waste, I would recommend catch and release for that fish in your pic. I was born not too far from there and know what's in the lakes around there.
Hawkwing, I certainly hope a plagiarized paper wouldn't pass freshman composition. But, it would still fail the advice, here, to be honest and speak with your own voice in your email and profile.
And when I was grading papers (admin law, not freshman comp), one of the top grading criteria is whether the writer met the 'client's' needs. You continue to argue from a man's perspective what sort of approach should work with a woman when there's at least one woman telling you that doesn't work. If you want to know what kind of approach will work with a woman, maybe you should pay attention to what the woman says works, despite what you think.
Just a thought. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 8:55:10 AM | I still think it's mostly about looks and attraction, as far as the picture goes. If I was attracted to a woman, that contacted me, I could care less if she just wrote "Hi" and some have done that. It's so easy to confuse the meaning of things on here! In fact, I think a carefully crafted message can come off as NEEDY and desperate. It's not natural in real life. You start off with "Hi" and some light conversation. You DON'T get HEAVY with strangers! Funny is BEST!
People say lots of things in these forums and give a lot of advice, but the bottom line is, does what you are doing result in relationships? Not friends, favourites or even dates that go nowhere! That's the true test! | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 9:09:38 AM | The thing is that this is not real life, online works by different rules. One 'rule' that's different that some of y'all are missing is that in real life you're standing in front of the gal, she can't just blow you off. Online, she doesn't have to even open your email or look at your profile.
Your first task is to get her to even want to open your email and then to want to look at your profile. Sure, there are women that do not get much email, or will read every email no matter how much they get. We're not talking about them. We're talking about how to get through to the women who have even a hint of quality filters.
True, you don't have to be heavy, funny is best. But, be sure what you think is funny is funny to women. Blond Lillith was funny to Hawkwing, apparently it wasn't to the she-fish. And, as many have said already, the approach email doesn't have to be a lot of words, doesn't have to be 'heavy', it just has to be unique. It isn't as hard as some of you make it sound.
This is a first email I sent last week (his profile's heading is "Is it too much to ask?" and he mentions an interest is "coffee"
Subject: No, not too much Sent Date: 10/28/2009 8:59 PM
Your 'ask' is just right. For the right woman.
Enjoyed your profile. Could say it's good to the last drop.
Good luck to you.
Peace
Cyn
He replied. We've emailed and talked on the phone. Will be meeting this week. (the reason there's no 'ask' in the email is because he lives 2,500 miles from me)
Disagree that the test is whether it results in a relationship - too far removed from the first contact with too many other variables that can break the causality. The true test is whether you get a reply that leads to further communication. That said, WAY more than 50% (haven't kept track but probably close to 80-90%) of the first contacts I send turn into further communication and face-to-face with those who live within a reasonable distance. I also do a booming business in profile reviews (on the profile review forum and offline) and regularly receive email from men telling me they have been successful after changing their profile (2 such emails this last week). | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:18:32 AM | You're very welcome, Cyn!
No worries, the fish was released. Not so much for my sake, but for that of the fish and the fishery.  Let 'em go, let 'em grow is my motto, at least for muskies and big pike. Didn't know about vertical holds back then (was new to really targeting the toothy critters), but since the fish wasn't that big, I'm sure he/she was OK. Not out of the water long. >
You'd be surprised how clear the Detroit River is these days. It's actually quite beautiful, at least upstream from Zug Island... | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/1/2009 7:03:03 PM | I stand corrected on something. Woman who sent me a one sentence response yesterday also responded today to my new question -- with a one sentence response. You could have knocked me over with an emoticon. Not sure what to make of that -- we'll see how long that goes on. But you know, you can't fault her too much for sending me one line responses if she's actually trying to do the "right" thing by replying back to everyone who writes, because she's probably got 300 (or maybe a dozen) emails a day to deal with (I suspect most of my all-time write-backs were from women who replied to everyone). But I do wonder if guys she's MORE interested in get longer emails. Well, at this one-line-per-email rate, I can ask her if she wants to meet me in about 3 or 4 years.
Thinking back to the 6 or 7 first contact emails I've received, none of them except the generic copy-and-paste email were longer than a sentence or two. The last one (besides copy-and-paste) was responding to a profile similar to the one I have now in which I explained all the stuff going on in my life. Her email? "Wow, sure sounds like you have a lot of stuff going on!" Hey, at least it sounded like she read my profile. Reading her profile afterwards, I was quite puzzled as to why she thought mine was worth sending a first contact email. Never found out since she didn't reply to my response.
Yes, a paper proven to be plagiarized would fail freshman comp, but in this case, it would fail only because it was plagiarized -- being plagiarized does not make it badly written. If someone plagiarizes the Gettysburg Address, does that make the Gettysburg Address badly written?
I think you're confused about my argument here. I don't send generic emails. Why would a creative writer do that? I actually largely agree with you about what I should be (and therefore am) doing. I'm just saying there are quite a few posts by WOMEN in other threads in which they claim it's not terribly important what a guy says in emails to THEM, because if said-guy doesn't meet their specifications, they're not going to bother, even if the guy wrote something that deserves an Oscar. I think you're different in the sense that (A) you actually try to respond to most of your first contact emails [God knows you're way in the minority on that and you know that] (B) you will disqualify a guy for a weak first effort, as that effort itself is important to you (C) perhaps physical characteristics aren't as important to you as many other women (at least traditional physical characteristics).
But let me ask you this: a man writes you a brilliant first email, perfectly tailored to you, but when you click on his profile you see that he's just finished a ten year stint in prison for statutory rape. Do you reply back? If you DO reply back, are you going to seriously consider meeting or dating him? I mean, he sent you a brilliant email! He even has an outstanding profile, except for that whole prison line!
That to you, probably is a deal-breaker, regardless of what he wrote in his email. Everybody has them. And for some, that might be height, some it might be ethnicity, some it might be prison (not sure if it was mentioned in this thread but I know I saw it somewhere on this site: that "20/20" episode about male height showed quite a few women more willing to date a tall prisoner than a short corporate executive).
So I'm just saying, no, I'm not going to write a generic email, but considering the ridiculous rejection rates around here due to "deal breakers" beyond my control that I don't know anything about because women don't put them in their profiles, I stopped pouring my heart and soul into emails a long time ago. It's just wasted time, wasted effort.
And, not too sound snitty or anything, but I bet nearly all women on this site have extremely high communication and meeting percentages for their first contact emails. It is they who are the deciders, so naturally if they decide to send an email before the guy even sends her an email, something's probably going to happen. (Except for me any my 6 or 7 first contacts. That I have trouble explaining. Well, I'd have to explain each one individually because they're all different, but at least 3 of them were responding to my most creative and entertaining profile with a "Wow, that's a great profile, but I'm not really interested in dating you"-type email, so that explains half of it.)
BTW, I've been blown off by plenty of women who were standing right in front of me! Yeah, sure, it's a LITTLE harder than "read/delete," but not by much. The main way this is different from real life for me in particular is that in real life, you rarely ever meet someone for the first time with "date" in mind going into the meeting. You meet them in work environments, school environments, church environments, activity environments, even being in a bar is not necessarily to find a date. In those situations, I have the opportunity to win over women who would have had no interest in me because of a "deal breaker" with my personality before I ask them on a date. That is borderline impossible on POF, because the objective on here is to find a date, and your defense mechanisms kick in the instant contact is made (unless you're actually on here to find friends, which a few are).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get this feeling that you think I'm more or less a smart guy and you think I should be going after a smart woman. If there's one thing I've learned from years of being in honors classes and honor programs and honor societies and honors dorms, it's that smart women pretty much have the same physical attractions as not-so-smart women. The only difference is that most smart women won't date an attractive dumb guy (or are done dating them by this age). But just like most not-so-smart women, they aren't going to date an unattractive smart (or dumb) guy. I'm all for dating smart women, but you know, I pretty much just date whoever will date me, and all the research (not to mention lifelong experience) suggests that's a very, very limited pool, so I'm not going to dismiss someone interested in me just because she's not particularly brilliant or (in POF terms) has weak email writing skills or a terrible profile. I'm not really into waiting around for the perfect woman to come along before I go on a date. I'd be competing with Steve Carrel for his title if I had adhered to such a notion, and as it is, I've gone years between dates multiple times, and I can tell you, those were/are not particularly happy years. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:38:58 AM | | Hawk, you’re using your intellect to focus on why you "can’t" as opposed to how you "can". You are coming at this from a one down position and apologizing for it to boot. You use far too much verbiage to state your opinion and then to justify. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:37:42 AM | It's ironic, isn't it? I've been at work for 7 hours and already attended two meetings full of controversy. Yet I bet I have spoken less than ten total sentences today. I've probably written dozens of sentences on POF and this is a slow day. I likely have one of the worst real life/online personality splits in history. It's not a good thing.
The fact of the matter is, it's much easier to figure out why people don't like you than why they do like you. I have no idea why my last girlfriend dated me at all much less for 2 years and neither does she -- her fiancee' could not possible be more Bizarro Me, but she has a million reasons why she's dating him. Fact is, almost none of my dates make much sense (except for the golddiggers -- but even they didn't make that much sense, as it's not like I have tons of gold to dig). Most people know what they don't like but they have trouble defining what they like until they're already liking it. And statistically, I am in a very small percentage of desirability -- it is what it is. So the "can'ts" are just always swallowing me up. I'm not even sure what a "can" is in my case. All the supposedly good things that have happened seem completely random and nonsensical. That's why I can't define the woman that I want to be with. I just have to date the woman that wants to be with me.
You know that "women who think you're hot" function that's based on the search criteria of other people? How many show up when you do it? Most days I get zero. That's because no women are searching for somebody with my characteristics.
I am in a completely different world from most normal people and unlike a lot of my ilk, I was given way too much intelligence and analytical skill (that's actually my job title -- I am a professional analyst) to go with those circumstances. Combined with tons of time on my hands from the general lack of a social life (post-girlfriend, that is), I do probably spend far too much time thinking about it all. So I don't disagree with you, but I doubt there's much I can do about it. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:59:07 AM |
I do probably spend far too much time thinking about it all. So I don't disagree with you, but I doubt there's much I can do about it.
Yes, you do overanalyze things to the point that you come up with our own arguments to cancel yourself out. I do believe that you need to work on your self worth and begin to accept some of the things that you are as simply AWESOME. What that is, be AWESOME to yourself. Don't do things because you are going to be liked or not liked, do them because YOU like them.
Let me give you an example. I have a passion for a street market, for spices, fruit, vendors, mayhem. I never thought that women would dig this. It was my unique corkiness and nothing else. Then I took a lady to one of this places thinking that well she would be completely bored. It turned out she loved it. And she loved it because it was different.
Look at the things that make you a passionate individual. If you claim to be a writer, writers are all about passion. And passion is what makes you unique and believe it or not, good writing is not about beautiful prose, but about raw prose. So what do you like, the classics, Post modernism, Modernism, Don Delillo, Proust, James Joyce, Faulkner, Hemingway, or the British Colonial writers such as Salman Rushdie, VS Naupaul, or the magical realist like Borgues or Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Anyway, what you learn from there is a approach about life, your life, and discovering those morsel of life that then when you share them with a particular woman, they will find them so intoxicating, so powerful that they will be in love not just with a guy, but with the essence and the idea and the body and soul that represents YOU and only YOU. Seek that, find that, discover that and you will understand what your last girlfriend loved about you. And for that matter, the next woman. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:28:20 PM | The fact of the matter is, it's much easier to figure out why people don't like you than why they do like you. I have no idea why my last girlfriend dated me at all much less for 2 years and neither does she
Hawk, yes, its amazingly easy to figure out what people don’t like about you, I could run a two page list on my self! So! What’s that going to prove? Should I be worried that some woman in Texas with high dreams, who wants a Jewish Harley driving doctor, that shaves his body, likes country music, smokes, who hates men who wear glasses yet love porn won’t pick me? I think not! But I believe you get my drift.
You can’t create what has already been created and you can’t allow others to define you. In order to be true to yourself, you first have to find yourself. You have to stop selling yourself to the lowest bidder. Conviction and confidence come from with in, they can’t be given to you and when you get sick and tired of being sick and tired, only then will you start to find it, until then, you’re at the mercy of the crowd. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:10:54 PM | | Hawk, I agree with cloudhidden. you're not here to win popular contest. You don't have to appeal to every woman out there. You only need to find one who adores you and you adore her. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:57:32 PM | "Should I be worried that some woman in Texas with high dreams, who wants a Jewish Harley driving doctor, that shaves his body, likes country music, smokes, who hates men who wear glasses yet love porn won’t pick me?"
Not necessarily "worried," but if she wrote that in her profile, you'd just skip on to the next one, right? See, therein lies my problem with POF: the top 2 reasons women won't go out with me (both from personal experience with rejections and from statistical research), most women on POF don't feel comfortable putting in their profiles. Therefore, I waste tons of time writing women I never had a shot with, like the woman in Texas who wants a Jewish doctor you never had a shot with. (Or for that matter, that I never had a shot with.) I'm not saying most guys on here are acceptable to most women on here. I'm just saying, you probably waste a lot less time emailing women who want nothing to do with you than I do. And it's not like I'm emailing 6 foot tall supermodels. Many profiles do stand out to me as pointlesss to email. I don't even look at women taller than me, not because *I* care but because I know THEY care. But a great deal of shorter women feel the same way, yet almost none of them say so in their profiles (though you can find dozens of threads in which they are saying it). I'm just really tired of sending emails to women that I could have been warned away from emailing. And at most other dating sites, I would have been, because of forced preferences.
Outmind: People do tell me I'm one of the world's best devil's advocates. I look at every problem from every possible angle and that leads to all sorts of canceling effects. I can't argue with you there. I'm not really book-obsessed. I've worked at several movie theaters, I was a film critic for several years and I've spent the past year trying to turn a short film I wrote and produced into a feature film -- although I'm a writer, I'm much more movie obsessed. My ex (who I met a movie theater) was also pretty movie-obsessed and I took her dozens of screenings -- even a couple after we broke up! (Not to worry, ladies -- last time I saw her was 2 years ago at a funeral of one of our friends.) Movies seems to be a terrible thing to be passionate about when it comes to dating, though. Maybe if I lived in Hollywood, but having just come back from there, I still got that feeling that's more of a male thing. Yeah, sure, almost everybody loves to go to the movies every now and then, but that's not really the same thing -- I literally see over 200 movies a year in theaters alone, and I'm not even a critic anymore!
4 Forum: "You only need to find one who adores you and you adore her." I don't believe in "the one." Statistically it shouldn't exist. And even if it did, most people just end up marrying someone they meet in church, class, work, down the street, etc. -- I mean, really, what were the chances that the most perfect person in the world for you lived a block away? This would probably be a good time to point out that although I don't know why my ex-girlfriend dated me, I do know why she broke up with me, and my inability to believe in "the one" was one of those things. But peculiarly, we knew each other as friends for almost a year before we started dating and she heard me say that about "the one" God knows how many times before she decided she had a crush on me. Which makes it all the more puzzling (to both of us) why she dated me... | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 2:15:11 PM |
although I'm a writer, I'm much more movie obsessed. My ex (who I met a movie theater) was also pretty movie-obsessed and I took her dozens of screenings
Actually this works even better to the points that I was trying to make by using literature, or more in your case the ability to tell a story. Look for instance at Lieutenant Dan, a character that I absolutely adore as one of the best written characters in a movie. He was supposed to die in Nam, instead survived as a cripple, and instead becomes the first made of an idiot (Savant). In one of my favorite scenes there's a hurricane and they are out there exposed, and what did Lieutenant Dan did? He climbs up the mast of the shrimp boat and in the middle of the storm and lighting curses god to strike him down.
As a writer look at the vitality of that character, and how resonates with what all of us have to deal with. When he becomes flesh in our head, you will begin to pursue life with such bravado, with such passion and determination. And do it not to please someone, but just because it feels right to you. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 2:19:34 PM | | Love doesn’t work on statistics; if you don’t believe in “the one” then you don’t believe. You can run all the numbers you want to confirm its nonexistence, and when you find you are correct, the question becomes, why are you here then? Hawk, I don’t think online dating is for you, I wish you the best in your search. Commander Spock, you have the com. | |
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| First Contact: Generic emails vs. Creative Writing
Posted: 11/3/2009 8:49:03 PM | I didn't say I didn't believe in love, which is what I'm doing on this site. But "The One" and love aren't equivalent. "The One" is a fantastic fairy tale with no root in logic. But to debunk it to people who believe in it is like trying to debunk God to a fundamentalist or Santa Claus to a 5-year-old. But just think about how many millions of times someone has claimed to find "The One," then gets divorced and finds another "The One." Yes, of course, some couples stay together forever but often that has nothing to do with being "The One" (my parents have been together about 40 years and they are most definitely not each other's "The One" and they'd tell you that themselves). If someone did a pretty solid world wide search and found "The One," I might be more apt to believe it, but to find "The One" next door while you're still in grade school seems a little problematic to me.
IF ANYTHING I think Plenty of Fish actually is the best tool in the entire world for finding "The One" if such a thing exists. With its millions of users, if you're willing to search through all of them, you might very well come across the most perfect person in the world for you. Assuming that person hasn't blocked you for some odd reason (it is pretty likely said-person has blocked you from emailing her because you live more than 75 miles from her!).
Actually, on a funny related note, OK Cupid, likely POF's closest competitor, allows you to see your "global matches," and I was pretty stunned to discover my only 100% match was located, of all places in the entire OK Cupid world, in Alabama... the very state I escaped as a teenager primarily because my dating prospects there were so ridiculously slim.
But anyway, back to love: yes, Virginia, I do believe in love and the ability of two people to love one another and to commit to one another in a way that compliments each other and makes life consistently more enjoyable. But I also believe such a love can eventually break down. And that's highly inconsistent with "The One" philosophy... despite the fact that it has happened to so many people who believe in it.
I'm not a big fan of Rush ("Tom Sawyer," "Subdivisions," "Working Man" -- these are pretty cool) but their song "Ghost of a Chance," especially the chorus, very adequately describes my view on love. I'm pretty sure Geddy Lee and I aren't alone in this philosophy. I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate, but I believe we can find someone to love and make it last.
But regardless of "love" or "the one" and all this, I just find POF puzzling more than anything else and I'm just trying to figure it out. I remember joining one dating site 6, 7 years ago and meeting 6 women in the first 2-3 months and getting emails daily from it (of course, not a single long term relationship came from it, but that's beside the point). That's certainly the best case scenario, but I've had nothing on any other major dating site even remotely close to the level of failure on POF: 2.5 years, zero meetings of any kind, extremely, extremely low number of emails and only a couple of real consistent communications (and I knew one of those before we discovered each other on POF). And yet, you come into these forums and hear people saying "I've been on a dozen dates from this thing and had these results..." You check how long they've been on here, and some of them are only a few months. And I'm not just talking about women (who are obviously in the driver's seat and can go on as many dates as they want) -- some guys claim this, too. Yes, they have many advantages on me, but still -- ZERO in 2.5 YEARS? That's just really starting to bug the hell out of me. I just can't wrap my mind around it, and you know what that status does to me! Seriously, what the hell is this?
Maybe it won't end up mattering. Today I got a call from the last woman that showed any serious interest in dating me (I met her at her workplace, not online) -- it never ended up happening because she didn't really live here and went back to New York when her job here was done after a couple of months (this was almost a year ago). I went to NY for one of my film festivals this summer and got back in touch with her, but we weren't able to work out a meeting, and I hadn't heard from her since. Well, the message she left me says she's back in Tampa, though she didn't say why, but she asked where I lived and if we could get together. She has a couple of REALLY big negatives (I'd normally even call one of them a "deal breaker") but on the other hand she would be one of the most attractive women I've ever dated if not THE and something about her just drives me... uh, illogical, so, yeah, if I'm lucky, she's not just messing with my mind this time. Called her back, got voicemail, and that's where that stands. I would be so glad to shut down my POF profile that you can't even imagine, because this place is the worst self-esteem destroyer for me since high school.
BTW, I've actually always hated "Star Trek," although the most recent movie was entertaining enough. The episodes of the TV shows I ever saw were those forced on me by a college roommate. Interestingly in the new movie itself, Spock and his father had a little chat about this very topic that went in a direction that you probably wouldn't have expected for a couple of Vulcans. | |
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