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| Whaling
Posted: 1/15/2008 11:06:23 PM | Caves, I still wouldn't want to listen to hypocrisy-whether musical or political.
It's always been the same with this bloke. With the Oils it was singing about social issues to sell albums and make money-now he's doing the same thing on the political stage. All for unaltruistic and personal gain.
Opportunist. Hypocrite. Pretender. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 1:03:30 AM | You've got a point about the whole EQ thing there, whitegold. In hindsight, it's not a great index for intelligence, but I do believe that despite this, I make my point that baleen whales are not highly intelligent animals as many may feel. (I don't think whales are of the same intelligence as snails...)
How smart do they have to be?
My point exactly, they don't have to be bright to essentially swim through schools of krill/fish with their mouths open. The smaller toothed whales are seen as more intelligent however, as they exhibit co-operative, active hunting techniques etc. Much like wolves in some instances.
I'm not trying to lump both whales and dolphins in the same group in the strictest sense. Although dolphins and small-medium toothed whales are very similar. My point was that neither were quite as intelligent popular culture would have people believe.
condoning illegal whaling
Cavesbeach, not my point. I don't condone illegal actions of any kind, conservation based or not. My point was that given that things were kept legal, and strictly policed, there'd be no harm in whaling, that's that.
Oh, and large cods and groupers out over Yongala way (perhaps you've visited?) are known to come and have a gander at divers all the time. Wouldn't call them bright under any circumstances, but bony fish do exhibit high levels of curiousity. I think the matter here is size difference though.
To a whale, a boat is a tiny speck, and you, even more so. To a fish, you're a gargantuan creature making a hell of a lot more noise than anything else they've ever met. Throw a brightly coloured piece of plastic or something they've never seen before at them and wiggle it around a bit though, and you'll soon see how curious fish can be. I've seen fish swim up to lures and just gaze at them and occassionally nudge them.
Now, your feeling is, and actually, some of my friends who've been diving with whales would agree, that they felt as if they were being looked at and measured up etc. That there was some sort of connection there. However, I'd argue that you could almost feel that with anything that approached and eye-balled you. The fact that it's a 'whale' means to many that it's a magical thing. The fact that it's a fish or a shark on the other hand generally registers as not much more than 'Oh, cool...look at that'.
Unfortunately, there's no objective proof for an animal's level of sentience, so I'll just leave it at that for now. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 1:33:51 AM |
Oh, and large cods and groupers out over Yongala way (perhaps you've visited?)
you got me there, I accidentally on purpose left out groupers when i replied to mr golds post on curious animals of the sea... they alway come for a look see eye ball to eye ball every time. but have never seen one swim 30 meters away from their nest to check me out.... but curious none the less.
Unfortunately, there's no objective proof for an animal's level of sentience
probably also true, i just wish i could transfer my experience/meeting with a humpback as my words just dont do it justice and probably never will. but i know what i saw and felt.
PS : lived in airlie beach for years never dived yongala wreck but have heard and plenty about it. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 3:56:59 AM | | i hate the idea of whaling, if those lot want to do it in THEIR teritorial water then we cant stop them, but in Antarctica, send in the RAN, if they dont stop barstewards the scum out of the water | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 55 | |
| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 5:21:33 AM | When I have this thread open, the little tab at the bottom of my screen says “whaling free dating” . That’s probably for the best.
A gore stained harpoon on the table during dinner might offend.
Whales. Well I'll join Caves in the leaky little Grenpeace boat full of people with a death wish. I might as well...I smoke, so I don’t have a long life expectancy anyway.
Aloofy said
the inhumane nature of culling whales is a distraction to the issue
I don’t think it is. It’s at the very core of the issue for me.
The method of slaughter is cruel because of the time the creature spends in pain and fear before death. A whale can take up to an hour and a half to die after the grenade has been exploded inside it’s body. Sometimes they are electrocuted a number of times, stabbed, re-harpooned. Their death must be excruciating, and terrifying. No animal deserves that…whether big, small, smart, dumb, cute, ugly, plentiful, rare, mammal, not mammal, big brained, small brained, friend, foe, fluffy, slimy, curious, shy or whatever other variables are being raised and debated here. Nothing deserves such a tortured death. Nothing! (not even Whitegold’s ex wife.)
This is a very old quote from a crew member off a whaling boat "If we can imagine a horse having two or three explosive spears stuck into its stomach and being made to pull a butcher's truck through the streets of London while it pours blood in the gutter, we shall have an idea of the present method of killing. The gunners themselves admit that if whales could scream the industry would stop, for nobody would be able to stand it." That was said in the late 1940’s, and from what I read, not a great deal has changed.
I honestly can't see a much more humane way of doing this.
I find it unacceptable to think that humans would try to justify being inhumane merely because there is no convenient way to be humane. Unless we redefine the word from meaning “characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion” and just admit it means “whatever the hell suits us at the time”.
Given that whales have a highly developed nervous system, humane slaughter would have to mean instant death that does not cause pain or distress.
I defy you to find a 'gentler' way to kill an animal that size quickly?
Errrm…shouldn’t you be defying those killing the whales to do that? Surely that responsibility rests with those engaged in the acts of cruelty (and those condoning or supporting it) rather than with those objecting to it. HumanEspresso I see that you have admitted to not sitting on the fence about this; that you condone it to some degree; so I think it far more appropriate in the scheme of things to perhaps defy you to find a kinder way.
I to be honest, believe that in a sustainable situation, and a controlled manner, any animal is suitable for harvest.
Sure…if we can do it humanely. But we can’t with whales. You said so yourself.
I do not agree with some of the radical actions of greenpeace… There's a matter or decorum here
and
destroying the thing would probably cause quite a bit of kerfuffle, it being quite a large, expensive boat with much expensive equipment.
Each to their own, but personally I cannot fathom an attitude that holds concerns for decorum and expensive equipment above any concern for the torture of sentient beings.
The issue with whaling is that it really is an emotional issue, not a logical one.
You betcha. Any issue that involves such a protracted and painful death being inflicted on a sentient being cannot be kept devoid of emotion by anyone with the capacity to feel.
Just makes me shake my head in frustration when people don't see things with clear eyes...
Me too. This is a clear issue of barbarism surrounded by empty justifications. There are so many smoke screens being thrown around about this that the whales will probably end up dying of lung cancer instead. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 5:50:17 AM | Well, here goes:
In terms of the time taken for whales to die, it is a matter of 'up to', not saying that it's a good thing, but that there's a scale here. Hitting the right spot i.e. back of the head will make it much quicker, and thus less painful. I don't believe most go for the gut shot, and if that were truly the case, then the practices would have to be improved, if not made illegal.
At my wit's end when it comes to thinking of a more 'humane' method of killing. Like I've said, I liken a GOOD shot to the same as planting a bullet in a cow's brain. It's not 100% instantaneous as other members have witnessed, nor necessarily completely painless, but in the end, it's no less cruel than that, or cutting an animal's throat and letting it bleed out e.g. pigs etc.
I'd imagine that slow suffocation might also be on the 'inhumane' list of practices out there. Interestingly, it happens to THOUSANDS of fish/crustaceans etc. every time a net's dragged through. There's no quick death, just the crushing pressure of thousands of your co-inhabitants and their spines digging into you while you're crushed up against the coarse nylon net, and the unceremonious dumping of you and those with you, now de-bilitated from the trauma to lie there and attempt to breathe something you cannot. The amount of by-catch that results from prawn trawling in particular is disgusting. If all industries were based on the humanity of it all, this wouldn't be allowed. Somehow I don't see people doing without seafood any time soon...
The practise of long-lining is another that's quite 'inhumane', and yet, one of the better ways to discriminate what you catch, and thus provide a more sustainable fishery and subsequently better ecological health. Fancy being tethered to kilometers of long-line by the corner of your jaw, thrashing away your last precious dregs of energy as you try to get away from whatever's restraining you, only to finally have several gaffs put through your eyes and head as fishermen bring you aboard. Not nice when you describe it that way, but I imagine you like to eat the occassional bit of tuna and such?
Inshore gill-netting's not pretty either, basically involving the restraint and asphyxiation of fish, many of which won't be size, nor desirable. But again, I don't hear people complaining about eating saltwater barramundi and such...
I think you might've taken this out of context:
destroying the thing would probably cause quite a bit of kerfuffle, it being quite a large, expensive boat with much expensive equipment.
This wasn't so much a defense as an explaination as to why the Australian government might be a little less casual about scuttling this particular vessel.
Now, I'm not exactly un-feeling with animals and often find myself connecting with them very readily, regardless of size, phylum etc. However, I don't believe that the fact that I can't bring myself to kill animals other than fish means that others should not.
I don't condone torture, nor barbarism, but yes, it does happen, despite everything (and again, I cite the abattoir experiences of another forum member). There's always going to be hacks out there, and just because you don't hear about it with lesser animals, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The number of times I've seen people stab at a fish's head, missing the brain completely...No, they're not mammals, but they still feel pain, and yes, I do see where you're coming from. There is truly a difference between a good hunter and a bad one.
If this were to become a more humane practise, I believe the actual harpooners would need to be trained better (no, not just on whales, you could use targets). Actually, I get the feeling that this practise would make more sense than anything else. Not only would the animal subsequently die faster, and less painfully, but less resources would be used in the process and the media wouldn't get quite so riled up.
Don't mistake me for someone who's passionately proclaiming that whaling is the core of humanity and that it must be done. But these are some of the reasons why I don't believe that it would be any different to what we do to other animals in the ocean given the correct training, practices and most importantly, policing. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 57 | |
| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 6:31:16 AM | ^^^ Whenever one issue of animal welfare is raised, I see this tendency in some folk to raise other animal welfare issues and layer them on top as some means of filtering the nastiness of the issue at hand. When we discussed battery hens, someone said what about the whales...when we discussed whales once before (thread since deleted) someone said what about the koalas...when we discuss circus animals, someone says what about the depletion of animal habitat. Yes, there are always other issues of cruelty afoot. That doesn't lessen this barbaric practice.
I buy pig and chicken from small scale farmers who raise their animals with respect to the animals's natural behaviours and slaughter on site rather than through abbatoirs. If I can't get it, I go without it. I stopped eating sheep at all about 7 years ago because of various things they do to sheep that I consider barbaric. I am painfully annoying in restaurants because I ask if their chicken is free range, and if it's not I won't order it. I nag my local supermarket to provide free range chooks in their cooked chook section rather than only free range raw chooks. I don't eat Maccas, KFC, or any of that stuff since I learned what that lot do to animals several years ago. I don't eat prawns, lobsters, or tuna. And so on and so on. I admit that I have not managed to eliminate all aspects of hypocrisy from my eating habits because what is out there currently has its limitations (beef once a week is my main crime, and yes, fish...I do need to eat and I believe I have chosen the lesser of the evils out there) So I do try to practice ethical consumerism in my life, and I do go without many foods based on an unwillingness to support various industry practices. So now....do I pass? Am I permitted an opinion about whales? 
Whales are subjected to one of the most horrific deaths of any animal humans kill. It is cruel. Everyone agrees that there is no way to make it not cruel. No human will starve or die if killing whales stops. It should stop. I really do see it as that cut and dried if the word 'humane' is to keep its current meaning. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 7:17:32 AM | Hahahaha, you and I both know I didn't mean to disallow you an opinion on whaling.
I will commend the fact that you do put in an effort not to encourage cruel treatment of any animals for consumption or otherwise. Fact is, most people don't AND like to throw the cruelty thing in.
My examples I felt, were pertinent to the issue of cruelty for human consumption. I didn't mean to take away from the fact that the killing of a whale can be cruel, and that rendering it instant and painless is nigh on impossible. I'm just illustrating the fact that they are not being treated especially badly in terms of the harvest of animals. As in people are not deliberately treating them worse than any other.
No human would die or starve if whaling stops, it's true, but neither would they if we suddenly decided not to eat certain types of fish, or prawns for that matter. Again, not trying to distract from the matter. Just that to some, and most certainly not all, the novelties are still worth paying for, regardless of how they're obtained. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 59 | |
| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 7:38:09 AM |
you and I both know I didn't mean to disallow you an opinion on whaling Sure. But you must admit, the "what about this..." angle is intended as a bit of a smoke screen to cause people to think they cannot feel free to identify a singular practice that is excessively cruel. Repeated mention of other examples of human cruelty tries to deflect from the key issue of an animal having a grendade exploded into it, facing electrocution, stabbing, and being dragged along by a harpoon wedged into its flesh until it drowns, possibly over a period of about an hour and a half. I just don't think anyone should be deflected from the graphic cruelty under discussion here, no matter what they do or don't eat.
people are not deliberately treating them worse than any other
See above.
killing of a whale can be cruel
Is cruel.
rendering it instant and painless is nigh on impossible
Then its continued practice cannot be condoned for any reason yet given.
to some, and most certainly not all, the novelties are still worth paying for, regardless of how they're obtained.
Yeah I grant you that. *Looks towards the Depression thread*
they are not being treated especially badly in terms of the harvest of animals
A direct comparison of fish and whales then...how long do the fish take to die? | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/16/2008 8:36:03 AM | How long do fish take to die? Depends what's happened to them. In gill-nets, depending on the species (barra, for example are tougher and last longer than say, blue salmon), it can be up to a few hours, with some flapping about for a substantial time after being taken out of the net. Of course, you can't really know exactly when the fish actually get caught in the net, so it's difficult to say...Sets are usually about 4 hours long and made during very specific times per location, so catch rates over time are high.
Long-lined fish, again, up to a few hours (circle hooks were actually invented by this industry in order to keep the animals alive for as long as possible), enough time for the run-out and pick-up.
I make my stance for the simple fact that I can't say that what I condone (fishing, beef cattle etc.), is necessarily any less cruel than whaling in my view.
Yes, it's a very violent sounding death, what with the exploding harpoons, electrocution etc. However, violent doesn't ALWAYS mean slow. I'll grant you that bad shots are made, leading to an animal struggling for an hour and a half... but good ones are also taken. I still don't see it as people deliberately causing the animal any more pain than must be caused to kill it i.e. they don't gibber and drool at the fact that there's 30 tonnes of mammal flapping around massively haemorrhaging into the ocean.
I try to sound cold when I write this because that's what my logic tells me. Emotionally, yeah, it's a nasty way to go, and there are better. However, I don't go to the extent you do when it comes to animals I eat etc. So, I don't feel I have the right to call it excessively cruel. I'd just feel extremely hypocritical about it.
I guess what you deemed a smokescreen, I consider an attempt at revealing other acts of cruelty that people do not often consider. You, well, you Naamah have an acute awareness of cruelty issues, and I can most certainly respect that, but I daresay that people like you are a rarity. Most people just flap their arms when it comes to whaling and scream that it's wrong while they're happy chewing on their t-bone and prawns or whatever.
Practically speaking, and functionally, it's a good thing, as it helps the conservation movement. However, personally, I don't like to make stand-points based on the common opinion alone. All that leads to is a population of people with a sheep mentality and no ability to question (not referring to you). That's another thread for another time though. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/20/2008 6:09:56 AM | Our waters.....OUR whales. I agree it's barbaric, however there are so many barbaric occurrences happening in this world. It's not just the whales we need to stop, it's the monkeys who have their sculls opened up so that people can enjoy the delicacy of eating the monkey's brain (whilst it's still alive). Elephants die from their tusks being removed, and tigers are killed for their beautiful fur.
If an animal is killed for basic food, then I can accept it. However if an animal is killed as a delicacy or killed to provide a compliment in your home eg: Ivory cutlery set or perhaps a tiger skin rug then it's barbaric.
I really hope the whaling will stop, and good on Australia for making a stand. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/21/2008 2:51:47 PM |
Whales are subjected to one of the most horrific deaths of any animal humans kill. It is cruel. Everyone agrees that there is no way to make it not cruel. No human will starve or die if killing whales stops. It should stop
100%! There is NO justification for human beings to continue this absolutely barbaric practise. I know what I'd like to do with those grenades and harpoons! Oh if only a species destructiveness were 'really' justification for slaughter!! frikkin humans!
This thread has me frikkin bawling! I can't get the image of such terror and suffering out of my mind! So sad what we are doing to the wonderful creatures of this planet .. so sad.
A.S.is | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/22/2008 7:28:06 PM | | definetely 100% against it ..there is no need to kill such beautiful creatures who may have taken years to grow and to have their life taken is sheer and utter cruelty............ | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/22/2008 7:41:32 PM | White gold
They cut open the whale and got the oil for makeup and for us to smell nice.
Im 100 per cent againest it | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 1/22/2008 7:52:40 PM | Cavesbeach
I agree unless you have a special experience no one can tell me whales and dolphins arent intellegent.
As a boater& surfer Ive had many experiences with dolphins.
As a whale lover humpbacks are so intellegent, very smart ,
Im my travels ive seen other whales they also amaze me.
A snail smarter i wont even answer that | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 2/1/2008 5:22:15 AM | Today there are at least 5 less whales in our oceans then there were yesterday,despite legal threats from Australia.
Maybe its time to start walking the walk instead of just talking the talk.
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| Whaling
Posted: 2/1/2008 3:08:01 PM | | Well if they come around my home town as there will plenty of whaling as I open a can of woop ass on em and throw harpoons at them see how they like it! | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 2/1/2008 3:10:01 PM | | the best thing to come out of Japan is ???? thats right NOTHING | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 2/1/2008 4:49:26 PM |
Maybe its time to start walking the walk instead of just talking the talk.
damn straight hilly, we have a whole navy conducting excersises that lead to nothing but experience for wartime. but when a lone "round the world" sailor gets upside down in his boat we rush out there sparing no time or money.
when its a bunch of whales in our whale sanctuary, we rush out in our science ship to strictly and unequivocally monitor the situation, counting how many whales they are taking that violate the UN mandate that we signed and pledged to uphold.
Australia upholding the UN treaty we signed !!...fat chance, we as a nation are as gutless as a labradoodle when it comes to whaling.its all about coal.
if i was running the show, the whaling boats would be brought back for scrap metal in port melbourne, or given to the Sea Shepard mob | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 2/1/2008 4:54:25 PM | | Agreed Hilly, but when we have pretenders in the parliament, all we'll see, it seems, is talking the talk | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 2/1/2008 5:17:38 PM | They even taste shit.
No point in killing them. | |
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| Whaling
Posted: 2/1/2008 8:39:27 PM | Agreed Hilly, but when we have pretenders in the parliament, all we'll see, it seems, is talking the talk .
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I see some others are aware of reality .
Sadly , the world is a long way off from eradicating the basic human being .As I ahve stated previously . Animals onlt take from the world what they need to survive .Humans , on the other hand , have an insatiable greed to satisfy in order to make life have some sort of meaning .Perhaps we can learn much from the animal world.
However , this is life , if the whaling is allowed to continue ,surely , with our "superior " brain , we can find a way of limiting the pain . Unless of course , the "cost" isn't too "explosive"
Personally , I think the method sucks , but as one previous poster stated , the time will come when culling is unavoidable .At least it could be a "humane " process.
Someone said a less painfull way is not possible ,,,,,, I believe that's bullshit .Probably would be a more expensive way , but hey , isn't this world stacked with money ??
Sometimes you have to fell sorry for the human race , such a lot of grubby little characters out to get whatever they can . | |
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